Identity and Language (Northern Ireland) Bill [HL]

Debate between Lord Lexden and Lord Morrow

Report stage
Wednesday 6th July 2022 Lords Chamber

[Lord Lexden (Con)]

My Lords, I thank my noble friend. His amendment represents a very satisfactory response to the probing amendment that I moved in Committee alongside a similar amendment in the name of unionist noble friends. He reminded the House of the historical background, which we went over quite thoroughly in Committee, so I will not repeat it, following his example. I hope that the new foundation will conduct its work in ways that enrich and enlarge understanding, of the unionist tradition in particular, and help to increase support for unionism in all parts of the community in Northern Ireland. That is something that Viscount Castlereagh himself would have wanted.

[Lord Morrow (DUP)]

In Committee, in deference to the excellent speech on the amendment tabled by the noble Lord, Lord Lexden, I withdrew my amendment. However, I welcome what the Minister has said here today.

Northern Ireland (Executive Formation) Bill

Debate between Lord Lexden and Lord Morrow

Report stage (Hansard): House of Lords
Wednesday 17th July 2019 Lords Chamber

[Lord Morrow]

My Lords, I speak in defence of the amendment in the name of the noble Baroness, Lady O’Loan, to which my name is attached. Since the commencement of this debate at around 4 pm today, I have received some 500-plus emails on this issue. I suspect that I am not unique in this respect. I suspect that others are finding the same response, and I think that this demonstrates that people are exercised, and there is real concern about what your Lordships’ House does this evening.

The way in which this Bill has been handled, the way in which scope has been dispensed with and the way in which huge issues have been inserted into a fast-track Bill designed for completely different purposes is deeply distressing to many people in Northern Ireland. When this Bill entered your Lordships’ House we expressed huge concerns about the way in which scope had been dispensed with. This problem has been massively compounded by the events tonight and the passing of the Barker amendment.

We are now looking at a situation where abortion is legal up to 28 weeks, while in GB the limit is 24, for any reason, including disability and gender, so we will have imposed on us a definition of viability that is 50 years out of date, a situation where abortion clinics will be able to set up in Northern Ireland from the end of October, and people in England will be able to travel to Northern Ireland to get abortions that are not available at home.

Does this House really want devolution? Do we want to give it any chance of success, or are we saying, through our decisions here tonight, that we would prefer that devolution did not exist? I suspect that that is the interpretation that many will put on it. It seems that this House wants direct rule. If the answer is no, then the case for Amendments 16 and 16A is simply overwhelming. How, in a context where we have 90 MLAs, can we change a key area of devolved policy over their heads when we have the opportunity to engage them?

Despite the fact that we are now in the school holiday season in Northern Ireland, with many people away, the letter of the noble Baroness, Lady O’Loan, has gathered some 19,000 signatures. That represents a UK population equivalent of more than half a million. That could not be overstated. I know that the noble Baroness, Lady O’Loan, has already made reference to that, but I make no apology for repeating it.

Of all the amendments that we discussed today, many of which are dominated by people who do not come from or represent Northern Ireland, let us be very clear, this amendment has more co-signatories than any other, thousands of them, and almost all come from Northern Ireland. It will be very important to reflect on the message that will be sent today if noble Lords vote against this straightforward amendment.

What will we be saying to the people of Northern Ireland? What would Parliament be saying to you if, by virtue of parliamentary arithmetic, it was able to impose something on your part of the UK, and despite being given the opportunity to give your elected representatives a say, chose not to do so?

I am aware that some say that engaging the Assembly is not relevant because it is not a matter of votes but of human rights. That argument, however, simply does not stand up to scrutiny. Of course, human rights are engaged, but the idea that they trump consideration and sweep away all others is ultimately a recipe for replacing parliaments with courts. The truth is, as the Supreme Court has made very clear, there is no general international human right to abortion, so the debate is not with me on that issue but with the Supreme Court.

Moreover, on CEDAW specifically, the expert legal opinion of Professor Mark Hill QC is very clear that the pontifications of the CEDAW committee are not binding and that the CEDAW convention does not even mention abortion and does not have standing to read it in. Lest anyone should say I do not care about human rights, I care about them passionately. I am not sticking my fingers in my ears and saying that there is not a human rights discussion to be had here. That is not the point I am making. The Supreme Court may issue a declaration of incompatibility on one very narrow aspect of our law as it relates to abortion and babies with very serious disabilities. In 2016, when the Assembly voted not to change the law in any way, it did so pending an inquiry on fatal foetal abnormality, which was published after suspension and recommended legal changes narrowly on this particular point.

The idea, however, that amendments passed tonight are the answer to that problem is absurd. These changes open up abortion for any reason up to 28 weeks. There is no case for that in any binding, proper, international legal instrument. In fact, the Supreme Court has indicated that Northern Ireland’s abortion law is compliant with international human rights obligations in relation to disability generally because there is no human right to abortion on the basis of disability. The idea, therefore, that Northern Ireland has to settle for this approach to abortion because of human rights is plainly wrong.

Some people might like to adopt an approach to human rights that says that this is necessary, but it is not mandatory. In this context, if we are serious about breathing confidence into devolution and respecting Northern Ireland, we must engage MLAs as proposed by these amendments. If the Supreme Court makes a binding declaration or if there are other human rights developments that necessitate a legal change—indeed, if there are any other developments that necessitate a change—the Northern Ireland Assembly is capable of making those changes.

In this context—particularly given the manner in which Northern Ireland has been denied constitutional due process hitherto in terms of the dispensing of scope and the insertion of major issues in a fast-track Bill on the decision to move Northern Ireland from having the most restricted abortion law in the British Isles to having the most liberal, such that it will make the laws of the home jurisdictions of those who press these changes on Northern Ireland look conservative—it is only right that, first, before any repeal of primary legislation is agreed MLAs are consulted, and if a majority agree, repeal can proceed; and, secondly, draft regulations are sent to MLAs and, if they agree, that again can be laid before Parliament.

I urge noble Lords to vote for devolution and to support these amendments.

[Lord Lexden]

My Lords, the noble Lord, Lord Morrow, has described the case for the amendment and the consultation that would follow. It is overwhelming. I agree with him and I shall vote for the amendment.

Northern Ireland (Extension of Period for Executive Formation) Regulations 2019

Debate between Lord Lexden and Lord Morrow

Wednesday 10th April 2019 Lords Chamber

[Lord Lexden (Con)]

My Lords, I must apologise for not being here at the start of the debate, other business having moved on so quickly. I shall be very brief. Our debate has made clear that signs of encouragement are hard to find at the moment. The Secretary of State herself made the lack of any serious current activity absolutely plain when, on 21 March, she was forced by the Opposition in another place to make a Statement about this order, which was brought forward with unseemly haste, I think. Ms Bradley said:

“I intend to spend the next few weeks working with them”—


she was referring to the local parties in Northern Ireland—

“on actions that can be taken so that, when we are able to start a formal talks process, we are able to do so in a way that gives us the best chance of success”.—[Official Report, Commons, 21/3/19; col. 1229.]

Our fellow countrymen and women in Ulster have had to endure the absence of democratic control over their vital public services—education, health, social welfare—for two and a quarter years. What does the Secretary of State tell them as these services continue to deteriorate? That she hopes to start a formal talks process at some unspecified point after preliminary discussions with Ulster’s five main parties. Have we not been here many times before since January 2017?

Our recent debates on Northern Ireland have shown wide agreement across this House on two points above all. They have been mentioned in this debate in particular by my noble friend Lord Cormack, former chairman of the Northern Ireland Affairs Committee in the Commons, who speaks with such authority. First, we are at one in doubting whether a serious talks process can be brought to a successful conclusion without the help of an eminent individual from outside Northern Ireland who will be able to command full respect across the Province. Secondly, it is widely felt that the existing Assembly should meet so that its Members can themselves consider what role they might play in bringing about the progress that is so badly needed. I associate myself fully with those two points, which have again been brought out so well in this debate.

I will raise one further matter with my noble friend. He promised a Written Statement following our debate on the acute problems surrounding the renewable heating scheme in Northern Ireland. Could he say when that Written Statement might become available?

This order provides another five months in which a path back to full democracy in Northern Ireland can be found. We all hope for success, but as things stand today it is difficult to feel great optimism.

[Lord Morrow (DUP)]

My Lords, I, too, apologise for my late arrival. As with the noble Lord, Lord Lexden, it also was due to unavoidable reasons. It is most disappointing to find ourselves debating again today something that we debated some months ago. It is regrettable that devolution has not been restored to Northern Ireland.

I have said before, and it bears repeating, that my party is ready to go back to Stormont tomorrow with no red lines and no preconditions to be met before talks commence. Unfortunately, Sinn Féin pulled the whole thing down. I said before that that was one of the big weaknesses in the Belfast agreement: one party has a monopoly and can destroy everything that others attempt to bring together.

The Assembly was established with great pain. When it was established, I was not the greatest supporter of the way it was brought together, because I could see that the whole edifice was built on sand. When you give one party a degree of spower such that it can bring the whole edifice down at one call, there is something fundamentally wrong with that type of democracy.

There are issues that need to be sorted, but surely the place to sort them is around the table in Stormont. I have heard it said here today that we need some eminent person to bring all the parties together. I am not opposed to that, but I do not think it is necessary; it would further exaggerate and complicate the whole situation in which we find ourselves. Northern Ireland is in dire need of government. We are falling behind on issues; our health and education systems urgently need attention. Why can that not happen? It is because Sinn Féin has decided that a few of its impossible red lines must be met.

Of course, this is not the first time Sinn Féin has pulled down Stormont. It did it before over welfare reform; it did not like it, so it walked out of Stormont and everything ground to a halt. It has done it on this occasion. Make no mistake; it will do it again and again. It is doing it because it does not want Northern Ireland to be portrayed as a good place to do business and where parties can work together. It was not easy for the parties, all coming from different positions, to work together. However, that Rubicon was crossed and progress was made. Important decisions were delivered on behalf of the people of Northern Ireland.

I served on the Northern Ireland Assembly for some 18 years, when it was very difficult because of the system that we had and because of the two opposite positions: one wanted to destroy the union and the other wanted to keep it intact and in place. It is very difficult to work with partners who take up those diametrically opposite positions. However, it was done and it was achieved for a period of time. Oh that it could be again.