Sentencing Bill

Debate between Lord Lemos and Baroness Hamwee

Committee stage
Wednesday 26th November 2025 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Hamwee (LD)]

I speak to Amendment 36, and will also speak to Amendment 39.

Amendment 79 in the name of my noble friend Lord Marks of Henley-on-Thames is in this group. As rapid consultation during the course of this afternoon’s proceedings has revealed that none of us is entirely clear what we wanted to say, I hope that it is not too late to de-group it. There will be the opportunity to come to it on one of the days next week. I am sorry if that causes a problem to any colleagues. Otherwise, I will just let the Minister reply as if it had been introduced.

Amendment 36 and 39 deal with income reduction orders. They are complex and not very practical, I would suggest. These orders were not, I understand, recommended in the independent sentencing review. They are not easy to achieve; they can impose additional and unpractical burdens on the court system, which as we know is overstretched, and on HMRC and benefits administration. A lot of fines are imposed by the court; they are the most common criminal sanction, but payment is persistently low. In 2023, 49% of fines remained unpaid after 12 months, despite the requirement that they are set at an amount which can be paid within a year. If that rather simpler system cannot reliably recover half of what is imposed within a year, the more complex income reduction order is not likely to be more successful.

The IRO penalises a person for finding employment by making deductions from their earnings each month. This poses the risk of discouraging individuals from engaging in employment or, at any rate, formal employment. They may move into low-visibility work or decide they are better off not working at all. The impact of court fines is disproportionately severe for low-income households. People with court debts are very likely to live in social housing and very likely to be unemployed, strong indicators of economic precarity. The fines system, particularly additional court charges, rigid payment plans and deductions from insufficient benefits, often escalate the total owed beyond what is affordable for people on low means. I do not need to spell out the path that some people may follow.

I have some questions for the Minister. First, what is the projected collection rate for IROs, and how does it compare with the current 50% unpaid at 12 months for court fines? How will the system track fluctuating incomes, PAYE changes, zero hours and self-employment, and resolve disputes without adding to the burden on the court? What employment impact assessment has been conducted—I am going to come back to employment in a moment—given the Minister’s well-known support for hiring people with convictions to cut reoffending? How will IROs avoid pushing low-income households further into poverty?

I said that I would come back to employment. Our Amendment 39 raises the dangers, as we see it, of income reduction orders hindering the good things that we want to see—offenders taking up employment and training and achieving housing. If the net income with which an offender is left is too low for these various activities, the net benefit would be a disbenefit as we see it. I beg to move Amendment 36.

[Lord in Waiting/Government Whip (Lord Lemos) (Lab)]

I did not quite follow what the noble Baroness proposed about degrouping, but I draw attention to what it says in the Companion, which is that

“de-grouping is discouraged once each day’s groupings have been published”.

But I may have misunderstood.

[Baroness Hamwee (LD)]

No, the noble Lord, Lord Lemos, is quite right. I had only realised it shortly before we came to this group. “Discouraged” means no in House of Lords language, I think. So I wonder whether the Minister can regard me as having spoken to what is set out in quite a long amendment, because I am sure he will have words to answer what my noble friend would have said, had he been here.

[Lord Lemos (Lab)]

That sounds sensible.

Border Security, Asylum and Immigration Bill

Debate between Lord Lemos and Baroness Hamwee

Committee stage
Monday 13th October 2025 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Hamwee (LD)]

My Lords, I have Amendment 207 in this group. I agree with the noble Lord, Lord Davies of Gower, that it is rather odd that the serious crime prevention provisions are in this Bill. I wondered whether it is because the Crime and Policing Bill was “overloaded”—would that be the term to use? But that is the extent to which I agree with the noble Lord.

I am not alone on these Benches: the noble Lord, Lord Paddick, and I have raised a number of times over the years our concern about civil orders morphing into crime without any finding of guilt. The Bill extends serious crime prevention orders with the inclusion of electronic monitoring and the creation of interim orders, extends the list of parties who can apply for an order—the noble Lord, Lord Davies, would extend it further—and gives the Crown Court jurisdiction in this area. So it will be no surprise to anyone who has heard us before to see this amendment.

It is not only the extensions that make the need for a review all the more important. There is very little evidence or data, if any, to show that the orders work. They overlap with other orders, so there is some confusion. There is inconsistency in their use, which I have become very aware of in the context of modern slavery and human trafficking, where it became clear that some police forces were not even aware that they could pursue equivalent orders. There is a lack of resourcing and infrastructure to monitor and enforce orders. Breaches are common, which is not surprising, because individuals do not have adequate support to comply with the restrictions and requirements that orders can contain and so, as has been put to us, they are set up to fail.

The Joint Committee on Human Rights made recommendations with regard to these provisions:

“Given the severe infringement on the right to privacy posed by the imposition of electronic monitoring, the test should be one of ‘necessity and proportionality’, not whether it is ‘appropriate’”,


and,

“To ensure respect for Convention rights, the prosecuting authorities and the courts must be careful to only seek and impose these interim orders where risks are imminent”.


Rather than proposing those provisions specifically, we on these Benches feel that it would be helpful and important for there to be a review of prevention orders in the round before we make piecemeal additions to them, and a review would certainly extend to the issues of necessity and proportionality.

[Lord in Waiting/Government Whip (Lord Lemos) (Lab)]

My Lords, I am grateful to the noble Lords, Lord Davies and Lord Cameron, in the first instance, if I may, for their careful consideration of these new provisions and for tabling Amendment 204. I recognise that the amendment stems from a shared commitment to robustly address serious crimes. With regard to objectives, I think we are largely on the same page here. I am hoping that I am going to be able to explain why the provisions are framed as they are in a way that will satisfy the noble Lords.

This amendment seeks to align the sentencing framework for this new offence with that of Clauses 13 and 14, which deal with articles intended to for use in immigration crime. The articles for use in immigration crime offences require that the individual charged knew or suspected that what they were supplying or handling was for use in immigration crime. People, such as smuggling gangs, know that, although the items involved may be very everyday items, they are being supplied and sold to vulnerable people, and in doing so they contribute to the tragic loss of life at sea and in the back of refrigerated lorries. This is a serious crime leading to endangerment and loss of life and, as such, combined with the mens rea threshold, the sentence is set appropriately and proportionately high.

By contrast—this is the distinction, because it relates to both the amendments that I want to clarify—the new offence in this clause targets items that are rarely if ever used for lawful purposes. There is a strong justification in the Government’s view for shifting the evidential burden in those cases. I will come in a moment to the question of reviewing and monitoring that was raised by the noble Baroness, Lady Hamwee. For example, where someone is found with a 3D firearm template or a pill press, the suspect will need to demonstrate a lawful purpose, which will obviously be very difficult. Standardising the punishment across these two offences would ignore those important differences and, with that in mind, while I understand the intent behind the amendment and the seriousness with which we take the commitment to address the issues in both immigration crimes and serious crime prevention orders, I urge the noble Lord to withdraw the amendment at this stage.

Turning now to the amendment tabled by the noble Baroness, Lady Hamwee, I am grateful to her and the noble Lords, Lord German, Lord Davis and Lord Cameron, for their careful scrutiny of these provisions and for tabling Amendments 204A, 204B, 207 and 208B. Amendments 204A and 204B, tabled by the noble Lords, Lord Cameron and Lord Davies, propose expanding the list of agencies that can apply for a serious crime prevention order to include Border Force, Immigration Enforcement and Border Security Command. I reassure the noble Lords that the Government share their intention to ensure that front-line agencies can apply directly to the High Court for an SCPO and therefore remove some of the difficulties. That is why the Bill is already expanding the list of agencies to include the police in all cases, as well as the National Crime Agency, HMRC, Ministry of Defence Police and British Transport Police. It is likely that, in many cases where criminal proceedings are not being pursued, these agencies, in our view, will be best placed to lead the process of applying for an SCPO as they will already have an in-depth knowledge of the case.

However—I come to the point of the amendment from the noble Lord, Lord Davies of Gower—to add these three Home Office commands to this list would be ineffectual. That is because we believe they are not resourced to monitor and enforce SCPOs effectively. Rather, their focus is rightly on protecting the UK’s border while working alongside law enforcement agencies. I think we are suggesting that, without stating it too baldly, there is a conceptual difference in our mind between border security and pursuing that and law enforcement and monitoring that. We think their focus should be on protecting the UK’s border while working alongside law enforcement, such as the National Crime Agency, referring cases and sharing intelligence as appropriate. Therefore, on that basis, I ask the noble Lords not to press their amendment.

--- Later in debate ---

[Baroness Hamwee (LD)]

My Lords, that has to some extent answered the point I was going to make, but the noble Lord has made me realise that we missed a trick in not seeking to leave out the power to extend these provisions, as he has just mentioned. He said that the use will be monitored and that there will be data. I take it that that will be published. Will the evaluation of the monitoring be published, because monitoring without assessing what is going on is not terribly helpful? Does it fall within the reporting to the House? He may not in a position to answer that this evening—or rather this morning—but perhaps he can write to me on that.

[Lord Lemos (Lab)]

I am very happy to write on that point but, speaking as a practitioner of the dark arts of evaluation, I am generally in favour of its publication.

Border Security, Asylum and Immigration Bill

Debate between Lord Lemos and Baroness Hamwee

Committee stage
Monday 8th September 2025 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Hamwee (LD)]

Can the noble Lord be tempted to express support for Amendment 203C? On his test of support by the British public, there can be no doubt that the British public support Ukrainians who are here.

[Lord Lemos (Lab)]

My Lords, I thank all noble Lords, at such a late hour, for their contributions, and I add my good wishes for a speedy recovery to the noble Baroness, Lady Brinton, and the noble Lord, Lord Alton. In the absence of the noble Lord, Lord Alton, I very much welcome the opportunity to hear from my noble friend—my very good friend—Lady Kennedy of The Shaws.

This group includes Amendments 164, 173, 174, 203B and 203C, proposed by the noble Lords, Lord German, Lord Jackson and Lord Alton, and the noble Baroness, Lady Hamwee, relating to safe and legal routes. I begin by reaffirming the United Kingdom’s proud record of offering sanctuary to those fleeing war, persecution and oppression around the world. It is fundamental, a cornerstone of our international reputation. The UK operates global safe and legal routes for refugees, including the UK resettlement scheme, in partnership with the UN Refugee Agency, the UNHCR. As the noble Lord, Lord German, referenced, the UNHCR assesses refugees living in formal refugee camps, informal settlements and host communities and identifies who would benefit most from resettlement to the UK.

We do not seek to influence the cases referred to us by the UNHCR. This ensures that refugees from across the world can access a safe and legal route to the UK. Alongside this, we have bespoke routes to sanctuary, as noble Lords have mentioned, for those from Ukraine, Afghanistan and Hong Kong. There is no provision within our immigration routes for someone to be allowed to travel to the UK to seek asylum. While we of course sympathise with people in many difficult situations around the world, I am afraid we could not consider protection claims from large numbers of individuals overseas who might like to come to the UK. Those who need international protection should claim asylum in the first safe country they reach. That is the fastest route to safety.

I know that the noble Lord, Lord German, has been concerned about safe and legal routes for a long time. They are an important part of the Government’s wider strategy to restore control over the immigration system. The immigration White Paper published on 12 May 2025 announced a review of refugee sponsorship and resettlement, and further details will be set out. Problems in the asylum system are hardly new, and the Government are determined to restore order to the asylum system so that it operates swiftly, firmly and fairly.

Amendment 173, tabled by the noble Lord, Lord German, and the noble Baroness, Lady Brinton, includes a provision that would enable biometrics to be waived. Biometrics, in the form of fingerprints and facial images, underpin the current UK immigration system to support identity assurance and suitability checks on foreign nationals who are subject to immigration controls. They enable us to have comprehensive checks against immigration and criminality records to help identify those who pose a threat to our national security, public safety and immigration controls, or those who we think are likely to breach our laws if they are allowed to come to the UK. There is, however, I reassure noble Lords, already scope to waive or defer the requirement to enrol biometrics in compelling circumstances.

It is for these reasons that the Government cannot support any amendment which would undermine those efforts and create an unlimited route, adding untold pressures on our decision-makers and accommodation and support systems, as well as the justice system. The number of people we can support through safe and legal routes depends on many factors, including local authority capacity for supporting refugees. I fear a scheme that would be difficult to control, such as this one, would quickly overwhelm our asylum system and have wider ramifications in our entire immigration system. As other noble Lords, including the noble Lords opposite, have mentioned, we worry that that would compromise public confidence.

Amendment 203B from the noble Lord, Lord Alton, seeks to amend the British national (overseas) route into primary legislation, so that any changes restricting eligibility conditions and settlement can be made only with the agreement of both Houses of Parliament through the affirmative resolution procedure, and I have noted the comments made in the Committee about the importance of the commitments we have made. I reassure the noble Lord, Lord Alton, and others, that the Government are firmly committed to supporting members of the Hong Kong community who have relocated to the UK, and those who may yet come here in the future on the British national (overseas) visa route.

The Government recognise the concerns that the White Paper proposals on new earned settlement and citizenship rules have raised, and we are taking steps to ensure that British nationals overseas can share their views during the upcoming consultation. We appreciate how important this issue is to the Hong Kong community, and we will listen carefully to what they tell us.

Given the ambitious nature of the proposals in the White Paper, it is essential that we fully understand their impact on all affected groups before making final decisions. Following the consultation, the Government will outline how the new rules will operate, including which immigration routes they will affect and when the changes will come into force. In the meantime, the current rules for settlement under the BNO route will continue to apply.

Delivering the BNO visa route through the Immigration Rules allows the Government to make swift changes to the route when necessary; for example, should the situation in Hong Kong deteriorate further. This amendment, we on the government side fear, would limit this ability to act quickly and create unnecessary delays. Given the unique circumstances of this group of people whom we support, the flexibility of the Immigration Rules is, in the Government’s view, more appropriate.

Finally, I will address Amendment 203C from the noble Lord, Lord Alton. The purpose of this proposed new clause is to make individuals under the Ukraine scheme eligible for indefinite permission to stay once their permission has expired, even if there is no further permission they can apply for under the scheme. The UK support for Ukraine remains steadfast and, together with our international partners, the UK continues to stand in solidarity with Ukraine and condemns the Russian Government’s unprovoked and premeditated war. That stance has had the very committed support of the entire House and the country as a whole.