Defence: Trident Replacement Programme

Lord Lee of Trafford Excerpts

Tuesday 19th June 2012 Lords Chamber

[Lord Astor of Hever]

My Lords, we are committed to retaining the minimum credible nuclear deterrent capability necessary to provide effective deterrents, and we keep that under constant review. At the same time, we are working multilaterally for nuclear disarmament and to counter nuclear proliferation. We believe that this is the right balance between our commitment to long-term disarmament and our responsibilities to ensure our national security. I do not accept the noble Lord’s point about stealth. So far as concerns a public debate, a main gate is not expected until about 2016. A decision about how best to consult will be made nearer that time.

[Lord Lee of Trafford]

My Lords, I join these Benches in the earlier tribute. How seriously is my noble friend’s department studying an alternative to Trident? Where is that study up to? Does he not find it rather strange that the Secretary of State for Defence never seems to refer to that study? In this context, would he like to comment on the recent article in Der Spiegel which indicated that Israel was arming its submarine Cruise capability with nuclear capacity?

[Lord Astor of Hever]

My Lords, the purpose of the study is to help the Liberal Democrats to make the case for an alternative to the Trident system, as agreed in the coalition programme for government. I understand that the Cabinet Office is leading the review and it is being overseen by the Minister for the Armed Forces. It will report by the end of the year to the Prime Minister and the Deputy Prime Minister. The Secretary of State did mention it in his UQ in the other place yesterday; it was mentioned several times. On the point about Israel, we are aware of the widespread assumption that Israel possesses nuclear weapons but note that the Israeli Government have refused to confirm this.

Defence Budget

Lord Lee of Trafford Excerpts

Monday 14th May 2012 Lords Chamber

[Lord Lee of Trafford]

My Lords, I should like first to join these Benches in the earlier tribute.

Now that the MoD budget is on much more of an even keel, and given the long-term nature of so many MoD contracts—10 years is not particularly long, and my noble friend talked about the 10-year line—would it not make sense now for the political parties to try to get together to agree a common approach to the level of defence spend? Would it not make a lot of sense if that could be achieved?

I appreciate that my noble friend may not be able to answer all my specific questions at this stage, so perhaps he will write to me. First, have there been any changes to profit margins on non-competitive contracts? Secondly, on the reductions in the civilian workforce that he talked about, how many reductions have taken place so far? I know that there is an aspiration to reduce by about 30,000, but how many specific redundancies have taken place?

My noble friend referred to the offshore patrol vessels that have apparently been leased. Leasing is normally quite an expensive operation. When were they originally leased and what are the financial terms of the purchases? Further, are any other naval vessels currently being leased?

On the question of the NAO review, can my noble friend give an indication of how long the work will take and when publication might come through? Finally, will the likely considerable costs of withdrawing equipment from Afghanistan come out of the normal defence budget or will they be treated as, in effect, the equivalent of urgent operational requirements?

[Lord Astor of Hever]

My Lords, I thank my noble friend. He has asked quite a few questions and I will not be able to answer them all here, but I will write to him. He asked first whether I think it is a good idea for all the parties to get together. I certainly have very good relations with my shadows and I am very happy to take this back to the department and come back to my noble friend. It is an excellent suggestion, and it is one that he has made in the past. I shall let him know how I get on.

I cannot give my noble friend an instant answer to his questions about profit margins and reductions in the civilian and Armed Forces staff. He also asked whether we are leasing any other vessels which might be bought. Off the top of my head I think that HMS “Protector” might fall into that bracket, but I do not want to be held to that answer and I will write to my noble friend. I am not sure how long the NAO report will take, but I am happy to write to him about that as well.

Defence: Carrier Strike Capability

Lord Lee of Trafford Excerpts

Thursday 10th May 2012 Lords Chamber

[Lord Lee of Trafford]

My Lords, I join these Benches in the earlier tribute. Today’s Statement marks another sad chapter in the saga of the aircraft carriers. It ill beholds the Opposition to crow and to adopt the pose that they did today in their heavy questioning.

I have three questions. First, there appears to have been some change of heart or change of plan over the second carrier. My understanding was that the second would be mothballed, or possibly even sold; now it seems to be planned to be operated much more in tandem with the first carrier.

My second question is about the overall cost of the carriers. Where are we up to with our latest forecast of the cost of the two carriers? Thirdly, will my noble friend say a little more about interoperability, particularly with the French carriers?

[Lord Astor of Hever]

My Lords, we have an aspiration to use the second carrier, but this will be an issue that the next SDSR, probably in 2015, will have to consider, particularly in the light of the cost of crewing it, which we estimate to be about £60 million a year. I can assure my noble friend that it is our aspiration to have the second carrier ready to assist when the first carrier goes in for a refit, or for any other reason.

I feel uncomfortable giving my noble friend figures for the overall cost of the carriers. We are in discussions with industry and it would be wrong to reveal too many of those figures.

My noble friend asked finally about interoperability. The key intention agreed by the UK and France, which my noble friend mentioned, has always been to co-ordinate operations to ensure that when one country has a carrier in maintenance, the other has one available. Our ability to deliver this assurance will be enhanced should we ultimately decide to bring the second carrier into service. The US has made it clear that carrier availability, rather than cross-decking or the capability of aircraft, is the key issue for it.

Afghanistan: Troop Levels

Lord Lee of Trafford Excerpts

Thursday 26th April 2012 Lords Chamber

[Lord Lee of Trafford]

My Lords, first, I join these Benches in paying tribute to those who have fallen in Afghanistan recently and also, of course, to the wounded.

In the Statement, my noble friend lauded the progress that has been made by the Afghan security forces. However, this huge investment that we have collectively made in the expansion and training of the Afghan security forces will be put at risk if it is not properly financed post-2014. The £70 million that it is intended we will be contributing seems to be a very small figure indeed relative to the amount that in these final years the whole Afghan operation is costing us, let alone all the investment we have made in terms of finance and human sacrifice over the years. How has that £70 million actually been arrived at, and what total commitment are the allied countries guaranteeing for the future resourcing of those very sizeable Afghan security forces that we have built up?

On the question of the withdrawal of equipment, I read very recently that it is estimated that it will cost the Americans around £16 billion to bring back the vast majority of their equipment. As I understand it, presently they have about 50,000 vehicles in Afghanistan; I believe we have about 3,000. Has any broad estimate—obviously it has to be a broad estimate at this stage—been made of the total costs of the equipment that we will be bringing back post-2014?

[Lord Astor of Hever]

My Lords, first, I agree entirely with my noble friend how really important it is that enough money is raised to keep the Afghan national security forces as a strong and potent force. The Statement mentioned the figure of £70 million. I understand the aspiration to be discussed in Chicago is a figure of $4 billion a year, which will be needed to keep the Afghan national forces going.

My noble friend’s second question was about the withdrawal of equipment and whether we have a broad estimate of the value of all this. There is still a lot of work going on in my department and it is really much too early to say how much kit will be brought back and how much will be left. A lot of the cost of this will depend on the route and whether it comes out through Pakistan or through the north. It is much too early to answer that question.

RAF: Fukushima Accident

Lord Lee of Trafford Excerpts

Tuesday 13th March 2012 Lords Chamber

Asked By

[Lord Lee of Trafford]

To ask Her Majesty’s Government what role the Royal Air Force Regiment played in the aftermath of the Fukushima Daiichi nuclear power plant accident.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Ministry of Defence (Lord Astor of Hever)]

My Lords, I am sure the whole House will wish to join me in offering sincere condolences to the families and friends of Signaller Ian Sartorius-Jones from 20th Armoured Brigade Headquarters and Signal Squadron; Lance Corporal Gajbahadur Gurung, attached to the 1st Battalion The Yorkshire Regiment; Senior Aircraftman Ryan Tomlin, from 2 Squadron Royal Air Force Regiment; Sergeant Nigel Coupe from the 1st Battalion The Duke of Lancaster’s Regiment; and Corporal Jake Hartley, Private Anthony Frampton, Private Christopher Kershaw, Private Daniel Wade and Private Daniel Wilford, all from the 3rd Battalion The Yorkshire Regiment, who have recently lost their lives in Afghanistan. The whole country owes them all a debt of gratitude for the sacrifice they have made. My thoughts are also with the wounded, and I pay tribute to the courage and fortitude in which they face their rehabilitation.

A three-man RAF Regiment radiation monitoring team, along with an MoD health physicist, deployed to the British embassy in Tokyo from 21 March to 21 April 2011. They conducted air and soil sampling around the embassy and local area and monitored equipment and vehicles for contamination to advise and reassure embassy staff. The team also devised plans to protect UK personnel working at the embassy in the event of a further release from Fukushima.

[Lord Lee of Trafford]

My Lords, I should like first to join these Benches in the tributes to all those who died in the IED massacre. Perhaps I may also express on behalf of this House our condolences to the relatives of those Afghans who were brutally killed in the recent horrific shooting.

My understanding is that the team that went to Tokyo was part of the chemical, biological, radiological and nuclear wing of the RAF Regiment. Is this not yet another excellent example of where service personnel are called on to help in a serious civilian situation of a non-military nature?

Turning now to the major role of the RAF Regiment, may I ask my noble friend whether the regiment is training Afghan forces in Afghanistan in their major role of airfield protection so that they are able to take over when we withdraw our main combat forces?

[Lord Astor of Hever]

My Lords, I join my noble friend in remembering the Afghan civilians who were murdered the other day. I also agree with him that the RAF Regiment’s ability to deploy rapidly and assist in the way that it did is an excellent example of military aid to the civilian authority. The unique skills of the RAF Regiment go far wider than just on the battlefield. As for mentoring the Afghans, members of the RAF Regiment have mentored Afghan police from Helmand’s provincial response company, put them through basic and advanced training and deployed with them in a mentoring role over the past six months. Detailed planning for the redeployment of personnel from Afghanistan is ongoing, and it is too early to say when the RAF Regiment will return.

Armed Forces: Afghanistan

Lord Lee of Trafford Excerpts

Monday 23rd January 2012 Lords Chamber

Asked By

[Lord Lee of Trafford]

To ask Her Majesty’s Government what is their current estimate of the timetable for withdrawal of United Kingdom forces from Afghanistan.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Ministry of Defence (Lord Astor of Hever)]

My Lords, I am sure that the whole House will wish to join me in offering sincere condolences to the families and friends of Private Matthew Thornton, 4th Battalion The Yorkshire Regiment; Lance Corporal Peter Eustace, 2nd Battalion The Rifles; Lance Corporal Richard Scanlon, 1st The Queen's Dragoon Guards; Private Thomas Lake, 1st Battalion The Princess of Wales's Royal Regiment; Rifleman Sheldon Steel, 5th Battalion The Rifles; Sapper Elijah Bond, 35 Engineer Regiment Royal Engineers; Captain Tom Jennings, Royal Marines; Squadron Leader Anthony Downing, Royal Air Force; Private John King, 1st Battalion The Yorkshire Regiment; and Rifleman Sachin Limbu, 1st Battalion The Royal Gurkha Rifles, who were all killed on operations in Afghanistan recently. My thoughts are also with the wounded, and I pay tribute to the courage and fortitude with which they face their rehabilitation.

UK force levels in Afghanistan will reduce from 9,500 to 9,000 by the end of 2012. By the end of 2014, British troops will no longer be in a combat role and will not be in Afghanistan in the numbers that they now are. Some UK troops will remain after 2014, including in training roles at the UK-led Afghan national army officer academy. The UK and the international community are committed to Afghanistan in the long-term.

[Lord Lee of Trafford]

First of all, I join these Benches in the earlier tribute. It is clear that we have in Afghanistan at present a very substantial amount of equipment. Clearly, some will be left for the Afghan forces, and some will no doubt be retained for our onward training role. However, bringing out the majority will be a major, complex task. Could my noble friend tell the House which routes are planned to be used in this pull-out? What is the speed of the pull-out likely to be? Are we going to hire extra heavy airlift? Finally, is he satisfied that the Ministry of Defence will have the systems and software in place to record all that equipment being brought out?

[Lord Astor of Hever]

My Lords, planning is still at an early stage, and the exact speed of recovery has not yet been set. It is too early to say what equipment we plan to retain, or its value, and what we will gift to the Afghans. We currently use a combination of surface and air routes to support operations in Afghanistan; work is ongoing to increase these to ensure that our drawdown is conducted in good order, and all equipment is consignment-tracked using an asset tracking system.

Armed Forces: Afghanistan and Libya

Lord Lee of Trafford Excerpts

Wednesday 9th November 2011 Lords Chamber

Asked By

[Lord Lee of Trafford]

To ask Her Majesty’s Government which countries are actively involved alongside United Kingdom forces in action in both Afghanistan and Libya.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Ministry of Defence (Lord Astor of Hever)]

My Lords, I am sure that the whole House will wish to join me in offering sincere condolences to the families and friends of Private Matthew Haseldin, 2nd Battalion The Mercian Regiment; Rifleman Vijay Rai, 2nd Battalion The Royal Gurkha Rifles; Marine David Fairbrother, Kilo Company, 42 Commando Royal Marines; Lance Corporal Jonathan James McKinlay, 1st Battalion The Rifles; Sergeant Barry John Weston, Kilo Company, 42 Commando Royal Marines; Lieutenant Daniel John Clack, 1st Battalion The Rifles; Marine James Robert Wright, 42 Commando Royal Marines; Corporal Mark Anthony Palin, 1st Battalion The Rifles; and Lance Corporal Paul Watkins, 9th/12th Royal Lancers (Prince of Wales’s).

My thoughts are also with the wounded, and I pay tribute to the courage and fortitude in which they face their rehabilitation.

On my noble friend’s Question, as of October 2011, ISAF consists of 49 nations working alongside Afghan national security forces. Denmark and Estonia are the UK’s main operational partners, and Tonga provides support. UK forces also work in close co-ordination with US allies.

In Libya, at the height of Operation Unified Protector, 17 nations—13 NATO and four partners—contributed. These were the US, France, the UK, Italy, Denmark, Spain, Belgium, the Netherlands, Canada, Turkey, Greece, Sweden, Romania, Norway, Qatar, the UAE and Jordan.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Lee of Trafford]

First of all, I join these Benches in the earlier condolences.

On Monday, our ambassador in Rome hosted a lunch for the Italian air force to thank them for their support in the Libyan operation, which yesterday, at an RAF briefing, the commander of our expeditionary air wing described as absolutely outstanding. Over the years, Parliament has received a number of our service units returning from duty in Iraq and Afghanistan; last week we had 3 Commando back here. Can we not consider hosting a major reception here and perhaps at No. 10 for representative service personnel from all our allies in the Libyan campaign and, in due course, similarly for Afghanistan, to emphasise the partnership in these campaigns, to acknowledge the sacrifices made and to say thank you?

[Lord Astor of Hever]

My Lords, my noble friend raises a very good point. The UK is rightly grateful to its coalition allies for the contributions that they have made. But in these times of austerity, this may be difficult. Furthermore, it should be remembered that the UK is only one country within the broad NATO-led coalition of allies that has been operating both in Afghanistan and Libya, so we would more likely look to NATO to conduct such an event.

Armed Forces Bill

Lord Lee of Trafford Excerpts

Wednesday 26th October 2011 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Finlay of Llandaff]

My Lords, I briefly add my thanks to those expressed by my noble and gallant friend Lord Craig of Radley to the Minister for his personal commitment to the Armed Forces and the veterans, his personal commitment to ensure that this House had a Bill that is now moving forward to become an Act in a much better condition, and the tireless way with which he and the Bill team have made themselves available to us all. Of course I am glad that he managed to negotiate that the amendment over inquests for military personnel was incorporated. The joy over that must not be diminished by disappointment over the defeat last night over the issue of the chief coroner—that is for another day. For tonight, sincere thanks are due to a Minister who has shown enormous commitment and has worked with us in this House to improve the workings. This has been this House at its best, and we are all grateful to him.

[Lord Lee of Trafford]

My Lords, I briefly pay tribute to the noble and gallant Lord for the way that he has led the campaign in your Lordships’ House to improve the Bill, particularly in regard to the PJM medal. The Ministry of Defence—in the nicest way—does not have the reputation of being the most flexible of ministries, as indeed I know as a former Minister. However, on this occasion we have seen that the ministry has demonstrated flexibility and compromise, primarily because of the personal efforts of the Minister, who has worked tirelessly to build bridges and bring about a compromise. I pay tribute to him and his Front Bench colleagues for the work that they have done. We have seen during the passage of this Bill this House working together at its best. We have improved the Bill and we should be proud of what collectively has been achieved.

Armed Forces Bill

Lord Lee of Trafford Excerpts

Tuesday 4th October 2011 Lords Chamber

[Lord Craig of Radley]

My Lords, it will not have escaped the notice of the Minister that this amendment has the support of all sides of the House. It is a practical and workable attempt to bring together the various strands and ideas put forward in the excellent debate on this aspect of Clause 2 in Committee. The nub of the argument is that there are two principal constituencies of service personnel and their families. There are those who have left the Armed Forces and others who are still serving who, with their families, may need different consideration. I shall leave it to other noble Lords who have added their names to the amendment to expand on those points in their contributions.

I understand that there is in the Ministry of Defence not inconsiderable support for the concept of a commissioner to assist the Defence Secretary. Indeed, would the Minister be prepared to go so far as to confirm that this idea is favoured by Dr Fox and others in the MoD, so it could be acceptable in principle? If so, the debate and the arguments can concentrate on the best ways in which to bring the necessary assistance to the Defence Secretary in fulfilling his remit. If Amendment 6 is not yet to the Government’s liking, would the Minister consider one that captures the essence of the assurances about how the Government intend to handle the requirements of Clause 2, because that might well be a way forward?

The Minister made the valid point that this Government cannot commit their successors by mere words in a debate in your Lordships’ House; one looks for an Act of Parliament to do that. So I hope that we can still find a way to put into the Bill an amendment along these lines. However, should the Minister find that unacceptable, would he consider a clause that would allow for the creation of a new appointment—in shorthand let me call it the “commissioner”, but another title might be more appropriate—by secondary legislation, as experience in preparing the statutory annual reports expected from the Defence Secretary is gained? The Minister may argue that there is no need for secondary legislation as such a post could be set up without statutory authority, but my point is that it would be much better, and an indication of the importance attached to the way that the covenant is to be handled, if this potential need were to be covered in statute.

It is generally agreed that the covenant is a moral construct that does not lend itself to prescriptive or detailed rules and requirements, but if it is to be given the benefit of statutory recognition, as the Bill will achieve, it is worth making the importance of all aspects of the reports and their preparation clear, and in particular to make possible provision for further steps as experience is gained. The opportunity to do so arises only once in five years, so it seems sensible to take the opportunity now. There is wide agreement that the annual report is going to be a serious and important piece of work. I hope, having listened to the arguments from noble Lords, that the Minister will be prepared to agree with this amendment, but if not, will agree that a provision for the revision of the current proposals by means of secondary legislation would be acceptable. I beg to move.

[Lord Lee of Trafford]

My Lords, I rise briefly to support the noble and gallant Lord and to speak to Amendment 6. I think that we in this House are all aware of the low morale that exists today, sadly, in our Armed Forces. According to the Armed Forces continuous attitude survey of all service personnel, only 18 per cent regard morale as high, whereas 44 per cent regard it as low. In the RAF, only 9 per cent regard it as high and 62 per cent regard it as low; in the Navy, 9 per cent regard it as high and 56 per cent regard it as low. I think that it is obvious to us all why morale is so low, given the cancellations, the cuts and the recent unfortunate redundancies. So anything that we can sensibly do to add certainty and clarity to the Armed Forces covenant must be beneficial to Armed Forces morale.

Amendment 6 builds on the earlier amendment that I and other noble Lords moved in Committee. I am happy to acknowledge the movement in the Government’s position as a result of the contributions from noble Lords during the passage of the Bill. However, I still ask my noble friend and the Government to go just one step further and include in the covenant report specific statements from the respective Secretaries of State, thereby giving them part ownership of and direct responsibility for the report.

[Baroness Taylor of Bolton]

My Lords, I, too, would like to say a few words in support of Amendment 6, which I spoke to in Committee, as did many other noble Lords. Indeed, some of the arguments put forward were echoed in the debate on the first grouping of amendments. I think that this does go very wide, and a lot of people are concerned to make sure that we do not lose an opportunity to maximise the impact that we can have in showing our commitment to the military covenant and ensuring that the provisions—that I think we all agree should be there—materialise in reality.

Rather than repeat the arguments that were used before, I want to reinforce certain points. I also acknowledge the work that the Minister has done in trying to reassure us that he understands the concerns that are there and why there is pressure to move in the direction in which we are pushing. I said in Committee that this amendment is designed genuinely to be helpful. I think that it will be helpful to any Minister in the Ministry of Defence to have other Ministers underwrite the statements that have specific responsibility from their departments, so that when the Secretary of State for Defence or whichever Minister signs off that document, they will be dealing with things that are the direct responsibility of the MoD. Other people will be taking responsibility where they should in the other areas mentioned, such as education and health. We also have to think of the devolved Assemblies. So I think that it is helpful to Ministers in the home department.

There is another very important reason for writing into the Bill the responsibilities of Ministers in other departments. Unless their names are on the face of the Bill, we will not get the maximum buy-in, commitment and drive from those departments to meet the obligations that we know Ministers in the MoD want to see and, I think, the rest of us want to see as well.

We have heard on other occasions that other Ministers are very happy to co-operate—as we found when we were considering the armed services White Paper a couple of years ago—but we have to make sure that the momentum does not diminish and that everybody maximises their level of commitment. It is important that we do not lose this opportunity to drive home that very necessary message.

The amendment serves a further useful purpose by making it clear that the covenant applies not only to military personnel but also to their families and to veterans. In our earlier discussions, it was felt that it would be helpful to specify very clearly that that was the case, not because the Ministry of Defence or other departments did not feel that it was but to show that those people could have the expectation that they would be cared for in a way that was appropriate.

I hope that the Minister will look favourably on Amendment 6; I think that it is technically in order. As was said earlier, Ministers are always under pressure not to accept amendments in legislation, but I think that there would be considerable support in both Houses for action along the lines that we have discussed.

Baha Mousa Inquiry

Lord Lee of Trafford Excerpts

Thursday 8th September 2011 Lords Chamber

[Lord Lee of Trafford]

My Lords, first, I join these Benches in the earlier tribute. I, too, thank my noble friend the Minister for repeating the Statement and for the offer of the briefing on 18 October. We have only had a few hours to study the 1,400 pages or so of this report. Clearly, in that time, one has only been able to skim through certain sections of it. It makes sickening reading. The horrifying thing is that, had Mr Baha Mousa not died, there would not have been an inquiry, a report or this Statement. Neither would there have been the 73 recommendations which, we hope, will prevent a ghastly act like this happening again.

I ask two specific questions. First, there has been a certain amount about Afghanistan in the press. What is the position in relation to our forces handing over detainees to the Afghan authorities and do we have any ability to monitor what happens to them when they are in Afghan hands? Secondly, would it be possible for the Ministry to investigate, possibly using closed-circuit television in some of our detention centres overseas or in our overseas prisons to give us an ability to monitor the behaviour of our troops and the treatment of detainees? If we had CCTV in this particular situation, perhaps this ghastly incident would not have happened.

[Lord Astor of Hever]

I agree with my noble friend that this report makes ghastly reading. We monitor very carefully the detainees that we hold and we hand over detainees to the Afghans only very carefully. To the best of my knowledge, we do our best to monitor the detainees that we hand over to the Afghans. However, I will undertake to write to my noble friend on this point.