European Council

Lord Lea of Crondall Excerpts

Monday 24th October 2011 Lords Chamber

[Lord Pearson of Rannoch]

My Lords—

[Lord Lea of Crondall]

My Lords—

[Lord Lamont of Lerwick]

My Lords—

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Cormack]

My Lords—

[Lord Lea of Crondall]

My Lords—

[Lord Wallace of Saltaire]

That side.

[Lord Lea of Crondall]

The Prime Minister stated only a couple weeks ago, much to the annoyance of President Sarkozy, about the crisis that they—presumably, the eurozone—ought to sort it out. In a sense, I am responding to the question raised by the noble Lord, Lord Tebbit. Does the noble Lord the Leader of the House think that that is what the Prime Minister meant?

[Lord Strathclyde]

My Lords, I must say that I am not entirely certain that I followed the noble Lord’s views. The eurozone is in an immensely difficult situation. There is a huge problem which will impact not just on eurozone countries but on our economy and perhaps even wider than that. It is up to them, I suppose, to sort it out, but we can all play a part in sorting it out because it is so important to all of us.

House of Lords: Working Practices

Lord Lea of Crondall Excerpts

Monday 27th June 2011 Lords Chamber

[Lord Crickhowell]

My Lords, after 41 years in Parliament and nearly 24 years in this House, I should be used to finding myself in the kind of business management mess that we are in today. It is a mess that proves the need for urgent action. Much of what is required is set out in the important report prepared by my noble friend Lord Goodlad and his committee.

Here we are today, a Motion debated without a list, two Statements and then this debate with more than 40 speakers asked to comment in five minutes on the many details of a long report. It is not a sensible way of going about our business. Substantial improvements in the conduct of our business could be achieved by observing rather than ignoring the guidance given in the Companion, a subject well covered in the report except for two recent breaches of our conventions—speeches delivered after the Motion that the Bill do now pass has been moved; and, last week, amendments moved at Third Reading after identical amendments had been tabled and withdrawn on Report.

[Lord Lea of Crondall]

I know that the noble Lord is referring to me. I moved the only amendment at Third Reading. It was done with advice from the Public Bill Office. It was clarificatory and the debate had not been held before.

[Lord Crickhowell]

I carefully did not refer to the noble Lord by name, although I warned him that I might address the subject. The Companion is quite clear on the matter and I suggest that it should be referred to the Procedure Committee to consider whether there could not be firm and enforceable rules. As I say, what is convenient for some may cause inconvenience for others. More generally, I think that the Government Front Bench could have been more robust than it has been in the recent past in reminding the House of the conventions. The previous Government quite rightly did so frequently and effectively.

This brings me to the report’s recommendations on the possible role of the Lord Speaker at Question Time. It is suggested that the Lord Speaker is physically better placed than the Leader to interpret the will of the House. However, I am told that it is impossible for anyone on the Woolsack to see many Members at the opposite end of the Chamber. I fear that it will be necessary for a clerk to stand beside the Woolsack to identify noble Lords—and then we are getting close to the practices of the other place and a move away from self-regulation. I would be against that. Reluctantly, I am prepared to see what lessons are learnt by an experiment, but they could be learnt quite quickly; a period from September to the Easter Recess should be ample.

I doubt the need for a monthly Question Time dedicated to Questions on House of Lords matters addressed to the Leader. I fear that we would soon find ourselves in a Lords version of Prime Minister’s Questions with the subjects raised going far wider than House matters. The proposals about Statements head us in the right direction. Fifteen minutes should provide ample scope for the Opposition spokesperson to make a response and put questions. If we are to have a more liberal interpretation of PNQs, the congestion of business will be made even worse than it has been today unless the proposal about second Statements being taken in the Moses Room is accepted as a general rule.

On the scrutiny of legislation, the Constitution Committee, of which I am a member, will place a report before the House very shortly about the process of constitutional change, which will include a number of proposals about strengthening the role of Parliament and dealing with such matters as pre and post-legislative scrutiny. Its conclusions will reinforce the conclusions of the Leader’s Group. The report we are debating attempts to define what constitutes good effective scrutiny. I would add seeking to ensure that the established constitutional conventions are observed. I support the recommendation to appoint a post-legislative scrutiny committee but I hope it will review more than four Acts each year. We need to submit a more rigorous and demanding process for post-legislative scrutiny applicable, certainly, to all significant constitutional legislation.

I part company with the Leader’s Group about the proposals for sitting times. I am completely opposed to the suggestions about sittings in Grand Committee starting at 10.30 am, which I believe would alter the character of and seriously damage the effectiveness of the House. A large number of Lords have other occupations, and they include a high proportion of the younger Members of an excessively elderly Chamber. Those Peers need to earn a living. Many make distinguished contributions outside Westminster and we need their contributions here as well. The effectiveness of the other place has been substantially undermined by similar changes. There are other objections. Many of our Select Committees meet in the mornings. Is it seriously suggested that all the hard-working members of those important committees are to be excluded from playing their part in scrutinising legislation? I hope not.

What is proposed is a disastrous move in the wrong direction. The pressure on our business timetable has developed because we have too much legislation, much of it ignoring clear guidance given by committees of both Houses, rushed and often badly drafted and almost all of it inadequately examined by the elected Chamber. Morning sittings would remove a discipline on government and make all these faults even worse.

I turn to the proposals I can support. These include those asserting our freedom to vote on delegated legislation; I like the idea of a Back-Bench business committee. Some of the suggestions for the use of simpler language are sensible, but I would regret it if we were to abandon the appellations that are used because I believe that they are helpful in maintaining courtesies that seem to be under threat.

Finally, I agree that it would be helpful to make the work of the usual channels more accessible if it is coupled with a recognition that the Government of the day are entitled to get their business in reasonable time and that it is in the interests of everyone to have a sessional programme that is seriously disrupted only rarely and for good reasons.

European Council

Lord Lea of Crondall Excerpts

Monday 27th June 2011 Lords Chamber

[Lord Strathclyde]

My Lords, my noble friend is entirely right in saying that we are standing on the touchline so far as the problems within the euro are concerned and that we see the countries of the eurozone needing to deal with that internally. However, my noble friend would be wrong if he thought that we had an entirely neutral view on the future of the eurozone as an entity, which we do not. He is quite right in saying that our economic interests and those of the eurozone are extremely closely tied. Something like 40 per cent of our exports go to eurozone countries. We wish to see stability and growth, which is why a large part of the Council was given over to a discussion about growth right across Europe and not uniquely in the eurozone countries.

[Lord Lea of Crondall]

My Lords, I cannot help but be struck by the number of negatives in the Statement: the word “not” is in almost every sentence, certainly on the front page. Following up the general assessment made by my noble friend Lady Royall, could the Leader of the House not go so far as to say that we have to be engaged in quite a significant way? The alternative of a collapse of the Greek negotiation is difficult to contemplate with any equanimity. Will the noble Lord go one inch further and say something that is not in the Statement, even though Greece has its own sub-heading, which is that we wish the Greek Prime Minister well and hope very much that he wins his vote tomorrow in Athens?

[Lord Strathclyde]

My Lords, if that was the tiny inch that the noble Lord wanted, I can easily give it to him. Of course we wish the Greek Prime Minister well in winning his vote and, indeed, in succeeding in the policy of trying to reduce the budget deficit, bringing long-term benefits to the Greek economy and stabilising the eurozone. These things are in all our interests. I do not wish to give the impression that the British Prime Minister was standoffish in this Council—quite the contrary. That is why key conclusions on fiscal policy, on job creation and burdens on business, on Doha, on the European stability mechanism treaty and on development were all issues that were profoundly debated and, quite rightly, very much supported by the British Prime Minister.

House of Lords: Reform

Lord Lea of Crondall Excerpts

Thursday 9th June 2011 Lords Chamber

[Lord Strathclyde]

My Lords, my noble friend Lord Steel’s Bill is before the House. It has had its Second Reading and awaits a Committee stage. If my noble friend Lord Hamilton were to table an amendment, I am sure that it would be debated if the Committee stage came forward. I have no idea what the Government’s view on that would be, nor indeed what the House’s view would be.

[Lord Lea of Crondall]

Given that there has been no recent statement, as far as I am aware, that no further Members will be appointed for the next six years, is not the question of a statutory appointments commission urgent for the here and now if we are not to keep escalating numbers, which has such a disastrous effect on all aspects of the workings of the House?

[Lord Strathclyde]

My Lords, I do not recognise the words in the noble Lord’s preface to his question—that there would be no more Peers for the next six years. I am sure that there will be. I have said in the recent past that no government list is being worked on at the moment. The independent Appointments Commission has its own ways of producing names and I do not think that there is a moratorium on it. I and many other Members of this House were Members of a House of Lords that had far more Members than this one and it managed perfectly well.

House of Lords: Facilities

Lord Lea of Crondall Excerpts

Wednesday 25th May 2011 Lords Chamber

Asked By

[Lord Lea of Crondall]

To ask Her Majesty’s Government whether they have taken into consideration issues such as members’ effectiveness and provision of facilities in increasing the size of the House to over 800.

[The Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster (Lord Strathclyde)]

The Government consider a range of issues before making appointments to the House of Lords.

[Lord Lea of Crondall]

I thank the noble Lord for that extremely helpful reply but, at a time of financial stringency, will the Government take responsibility for the escalation since the election of both the direct costs of Members and the costs of buildings, desks, telecoms, the Library, catering facilities and committee-servicing support staff, albeit that there are no more seats in the Chamber and no more speaking time in the Chamber? Secondly, we hear the Machiavellian argument that, whereas a constantly rising trend to 800 Members and above is unsustainable—that is correct—that is thereby one of the reasons for abolishing this House as we know it and replacing it with a second-class Commons. Is this not a crisis of the coalition’s own deliberate making and a tactic worthy of any self-respecting Bolshevik?

[Lord Strathclyde]

My Lords, that is a first for me. I do not know whether the noble Lord was rehearsing his speech for what will no doubt be an action-packed two-day debate on the future of your Lordships’ House in a few weeks’ time, but I do not recognise any of his characterisations. It is true that the House is bigger than it has been for some years. What is more significant is that the daily attendance has risen—though it is still below our full strength, at about 450 per day—and that has put some pressure on our facilities. However, various committees of the House look into this. The House should of course be comfortable and be able to provide for the needs of noble Lords, but these issues are simply not related to future reform.

House of Lords Reform Bill

Lord Lea of Crondall Excerpts

Tuesday 17th May 2011 Lords Chamber

[Lord Strathclyde]

My Lords, I am sure the whole House will have heard my noble friend. I can confirm that it is my understanding that not only the Opposition but also the Cross Benches and everybody else who wishes to play a part in the Joint Committee will wish to do so most constructively to try to reach a good solution that would suit not just this House or the other place, but also the nation.

[Lord Lea of Crondall]

My Lords, is the Leader of the House aware that in the House of Commons this afternoon, in response to questions on this very matter, Ministers prayed in aid the fact that the present House of Lords is unsustainable on the grounds that its membership is approaching 800 and will go beyond that? Does he not agree that it is the present Government who are doing the majority of the appointing? The White Paper states that a statutory appointments commission should be available to deal with 20 per cent of Members, if they are appointed. Why can we not go forward with the Steel Bill and say that the present appointments, which would include a formula between the parties on a ceiling, should not go forward? The Government claim—even though we will obviously be here for some years yet—that it is unsustainable to have the present growth stampede, led by the Government, in changing the composition of the House.

[Lord Strathclyde]

My Lords, I do not know how long the noble Lord will be here, but there is no need to go forward with the Steel Bill if the intention is to have elected Members by 2015. We will spend probably the next Session and maybe even the Session after that on passing the House of Lords reform Bill.

European Council

Lord Lea of Crondall Excerpts

Monday 20th December 2010 Lords Chamber

[Lord Strathclyde]

My Lords, my noble friend is right some of the conditions for entry into the euro that were laid out in the Maastricht treaty, and other conditions including those on deficits, have been broken. I believe that there is a sense of moral hazard because they have been bailed out, but it is in the interests of everyone within Europe to make sure that no further countries find themselves in financial trouble. That is why the eurozone is itself taking steps to try to manage its affairs in a more coherent way.

[Lord Lea of Crondall]

My Lords, I sympathise with the noble Lord, with the puppies snapping at his heels, but will he accept my congratulations on the first few paragraphs of the Statement which say that we indeed think that it is in Britain's interest to bring stability to the eurozone? That is an important signal for people in the City of London and elsewhere who think the opposite.

Secondly, President Sarkozy, Chancellor Merkel and our Prime Minister have written a joint letter on the budget. If we are going to have that close triangular relationship, does it not follow that that will probably be true of banking, energy policy and other areas? The question of creep towards Brussels running things, which is a bit of hyperbole, is one of evolution rather than any major revolutionary change.

[Lord Strathclyde]

My Lords, yes, we are in favour of stability in the eurozone, but we also feel that it is entirely right for nation states to stand up for their interests and to get together. That is in a way exactly what happened in this letter between Chancellor Merkel, President Sarkozy and others, who suggested—rightly, in my view—that it is time for the European budget to come under further control. That is not seeking to centralise power within Brussels; it is seeking to exert more pressure and more control from member states on the European Union. That is a very good direction of travel.

Business of the House

Lord Lea of Crondall Excerpts

Monday 29th November 2010 Lords Chamber

[Lord Strathclyde]

My Lords, it is very hard to answer that question as Leader of the whole House without looking back in the mists of time at the reasons for the 1911 Act. The reason we have had the privilege of dealing with monetary and taxation legislation is in the history of 100 years ago. With the best will in the world, I have no intention of reopening that any more than any of my predecessors have done over the last 99 years.

[Lord Lea of Crondall]

Why was the climate change Bill not a money Bill?

[Lord Strathclyde]

My Lords, I suppose it was because Mr Speaker was not advised by his Clerks that it was a money Bill. If it had been a money Bill, we would have disposed of it rather more quickly than we did.

House of Lords Reform

Lord Lea of Crondall Excerpts

Tuesday 29th June 2010 Lords Chamber

[Lord Strathclyde]

The noble Lord, Lord Richard, proves my point and I am immensely grateful to him. We are going to investigate whether there should be a scheme.

The noble Lord, Lord Steel, wants to have a vote on the abolition of by-elections for hereditary Peers. I can confirm to the House that when we publish a Bill at the end of this year, which is only a few months away, there will be not only a proposal for the abolition of by-elections for hereditary Peers but one for a very substantial cut in the number of life Peers under the Life Peerages Act 1958. That is the by-product of going down this road.

The noble Lord has put down only four suggestions. He could have had a fifth: whether or not there should be an elected or an unelected House—as if there were any doubt about that, incidentally. His next proposal concerns the removal of Members convicted of serious criminal offences. Frankly, I was surprised to see this because I cannot imagine that anybody would not be in favour of having a statutory scheme similar to that of the House of Commons. It is certainly our intention that this should be covered in the legislation when it comes forward, once we have had a suitable debate on that subject. The provision already applies in another place; there is no good reason why it should not apply here.

The creation of a statutory appointments commission is infinitely more complicated and is the most difficult and controversial aspect of the noble Lord’s proposals. It is difficult and controversial at least in part because the appointments system that we have already seems to work pretty well. Many of the Peers on the Cross Benches came out of the Appointments Commission and they show up that commission rather better than many of us had imagined would be the case. However, if we still had an appointed element in this House, there would have to be some kind of system, and it would be very surprising if that was not a statutorily-based system.

[Lord Lea of Crondall]

Is the noble Lord not aware that, in introducing his Motion, the noble Lord, Lord Steel, said that it applies to the period between now and the never-never land when the Bill will come into operation? To say that this will all be covered by the Bill and that the hereditary by-elections will automatically ipso facto go at that time does not address the point made by the noble Lord, Lord Steel.

[Lord Strathclyde]

But of course it does. The Government have pledged to produce a Bill by the end of the year. I could ring up the parliamentary draftsman tomorrow morning and say, “We have a cracking good idea. We have four marvellous suggestions that none of us has thought of before. Please draft a Bill”. These measures require legislation. They cannot just be willed. They cannot just happen.

House of Lords Reform

Lord Lea of Crondall Excerpts

Tuesday 29th June 2010 Lords Chamber

[Lord Lea of Crondall]

My Lords, the fundamental flaw in the approach in the Statement made by the Leader of the House yesterday is that we are playing at demotic politics without the demos. For years we have been carrying on as though there is an issue in the country but, wherever else there is an issue, it is not in the country. We have therefore had to invent a demos who want something, which we then have to give them. A moment’s thought suggests that that is an erroneous starting point. There can be many other starting points, but I wish to clear that one out of our subconscious first.

This leads directly to the second fallacy in the line of proceeding. Someone has said that we must have a committee with a limited remit—build a Trojan horse. If you want to build a Trojan horse there is not much more you can do other than build it. I cannot think of someone saying you should put down an amendment if you want to build a Trojan horse—you have got to get on and build it. My metaphors are often hard to keep running, but this one would result in a process whereby it would be hard to look at anything other than building the Trojan horse.

Can all the points made by the noble Lord, Lord Steel, and many of the points made by the right reverend Prelate the Bishop of Leicester—who made an interesting contribution, as did the noble Lord, Lord Low of Dalston—be brought within the building of, or even inside, the Trojan horse? That will produce a difficulty for many of us; it is an impenetrable remit that will prevent us getting to the practical and philosophical points that lie behind it.

Therefore, to use the vernacular that has been used more than once, it would be nice if we could take literally, objectively and honestly the famous aphorism, “If it ain’t broke, don’t fix it”. However, what is it that is broke? Let us say, “Okay. This is not a perfect place. Something is perhaps a little bit broke. Let us look at it”. There is a gap in the range of people who come here. The noble Lord, Lord Jay of Ewelme, who is not in his place, said in his evidence to the Constitution Select Committee—this was drawn to my attention by the noble Lord, Lord Norton of Louth—that there is a danger that we are appointing too many people in our own image. There is something in that. It raises the practical question of what you do to avoid appointing too many people in your own image.

In the Labour Party there is certainly scope for getting the National Executive Committee and the conference to look at the appointments system. This is a reform measure and, as the noble Lord, Lord Grenfell, said in an excellent speech, the Labour Peers’ Group is a practical reforming group. A majority of the group—indeed, it was a consensus—wrote to the Prime Minister, Tony Blair, in answer to his suggestion that we should put forward any ideas, and said that we wanted these four points considered. I am not saying that the noble Lord, Lord Steel, did not have an idea in his head until that moment in history, but he picked up on that principle and no one at any stage has ever said that there was anything other than genuine reform in it.

The only request I would make of my very good friend, the noble Lord, Lord Hunt of Kings Heath, is that he does not repeat the canard that we are only putting forward the Steel Bill in order to put off the revolution of election: that in the Steel Bill we want a body of six or seven people to make all political appointments and so on. Perhaps I may put on record for the nth time that that is specifically not what we want. In the last version of the Steel Bill before the election, it was spelt out specifically that that is not what we are proposing. We are proposing virtually the opposite: that the parties should put up criteria to be registered with the Appointments Commission.

Two aspects of democracy would then be met and the balance between the parties would not be too far out. The Liberal Democrats would say that there are not enough Liberal Democrats, but the balance between Labour and Conservative over the years has met the three elections’ average. This is not like the nonsense in the coalition document. The worst drafted sentence in the whole document is that they want a House of Lords that reflects the last general election. I do not know which innumerate person in the coalition talks late at night wrote that sentence, but it would be totally impossible unless there were 1,000 Members within a few years—we leapfrog you, you leapfrog us.

The way in which these ideas can be looked at side by side with building the Trojan horse may cause a difficulty. One way through may be to look at the way in which we relate to Members of Parliament. There is no feeling among most MPs that this demotic politics needs to find the demos, but there has been a bit of a reaction. As Jack Straw said late at night here in the wash-up—this was reported in the newspapers so it can only be accurate—coming up to the House of Lords is like going to another planet. If these two planets are to have Members who know each other, and there are no pointed heads on one side or the other, we ought to get to know our colleagues at the other end a lot more than we do. There are some very notable colleagues—my noble friend Lord Grocott springs to mind on our side—who have spent many distinguished years in the Commons. We know many people in the House of Commons who, as soon as you have the second pint with them—but not only because you buy them a second pint—start to see the sense of what you are saying.

We should find a way in which we can continue to look at the merits of the proposal by the noble Lord, Lord Steel, and parallel proposals, side by side with this mad idea of building a Trojan horse. George Woodcock, who was the very distinguished general secretary of the TUC when I joined, used to quote something that I never understood. He said, “Structure is a function of purpose”. After 50 years, I begin to see what he was talking about, and that is where we should begin the conversation.