Customs Clearance Arrangements at UK Ports

Debate between Lord Lamont of Lerwick and Lord Bates

Monday 19th March 2018 Lords Chamber

[Lord Bates]

The noble Baroness takes a very pessimistic view of this matter. We believe that we are taking a realistic and optimistic view of the potential agreements. For example, we believe that it is in everybody’s interest to ensure that this process takes place. If we look at the balance of trade between ourselves and the EU, there is a deficit of £96 billion on trade in goods, which suggests that it is very much in the enlightened self-interest of our European friends to ensure that that border is as frictionless as possible so that this trade can take place.

The noble Baroness referred to the situation in Northern Ireland. Of course, there is a difference in duty on certain goods between the two countries, as she alluded to, and they have introduced mechanisms for dealing with that. They have a variety of means of doing so, not just technology. They use some physical checks, particularly to clamp down on the fuel element of that traffic, so I believe that where there is a political will, there is a way. We believe that a will to make this frictionless border happen has been demonstrated, and that is what we are working towards.

[Lord Lamont of Lerwick (Con)]

My Lords, will my noble friend draw the attention of noble Lords opposite who are so sceptical about the use of technology to the evidence given to the House of Commons Select Committee on Exiting the European Union on 29 November 2017, when the chief executive of HMRC, Jon Thompson, said that,

“this has been our consistent advice to ministers, we do not believe we require any infrastructure at the border between Northern Ireland and Ireland under any circumstances”,

whatever the outcome of the talks? In the same session of the committee, the Defra policy director for animal and plant health, John Bourne, replied, when he was asked how he could achieve no border and no infrastructure,

“the risk post-Brexit does not change … Is there a problem … No”.

[Lord Bates]

Whatever we say, those are very profound statements made by people who are in the front line of protecting our borders and ensuring that we collect the duties and taxes due to us. That shows that it is possible. Moreover, we say that the whole trajectory of global trade is heading in a digital direction. We also believe that our approach as a Government is moving towards a digital tax system. We believe that this necessity will force further invention, which will mean that we can deliver this process to the benefit of our economy and productivity as a whole.

Brexit: Costs

Debate between Lord Lamont of Lerwick and Lord Bates

Wednesday 29th November 2017 Lords Chamber

[Lord Bates]

I accept that there are costs, but there are also benefits that will come from Brexit. As for the costs, there is our net contribution of £10 billion a year. We have set aside £3 billion, which the Chancellor announced in the Budget, to prepare government departments and the devolved Administrations for all eventualities and outcomes. This is the right and proper way to implement a decision of the British people.

[Lord Lamont of Lerwick (Con)]

Does my noble friend accept that what he has said will seem reasonable to many people: the member states will, over the budget period, receive what they would have expected to receive? But will any payments be made beyond that, apart from pension liabilities?

[Lord Bates]

My noble friend tempts me a little further than we are aware at present. The negotiations are happening in a complex situation—it is fast-moving and changing—but our team is out there trying to secure the best deal for the British taxpayer, which I am sure it will.

Criminal Justice: Anonymity

Debate between Lord Lamont of Lerwick and Lord Bates

Tuesday 17th November 2015 Lords Chamber

[Lord Bates]

My noble friend is absolutely right to draw attention to this. When accusations of this vile nature are made against people who are subsequently found to be not guilty, it is a matter of incredible distress to them and their families. The police guidance on this is very clear. It says that the police should not release the names of those who are arrested or suspected of a crime unless there are clear circumstances to justify it. That means that such a decision should be taken by a chief officer and should not be the subject of informal press briefing: it ought to be communicated above the line. I am aware, as is my noble friend, that the Metropolitan Police has itself looked into this and has issued a letter of apology to Lady Brittan in respect of some allegations and conduct. It has also invited another constabulary to review its procedures. In this case, as in any other, there is also the possibility of referral to the Independent Police Complaints Commission.

[Lord Lamont of Lerwick (Con)]

Does the Minister agree that the strictures on naming people in these circumstances should apply not just to the police but to the public and Members of the House of Commons and House of Lords? Is he aware of the evidence given to the House of Commons Home Affairs Select Committee by Detective Chief Inspector Paul Settle, the senior investigating officer for Operation Fairbank? When commenting on the activities of Mr Tom Watson MP, who had called for the investigation into Leon Brittan, he said that it was a “baseless witch hunt”. Does the Minister also agree that Mr Watson’s letter to the DPP undermined the police and that his conduct was very damaging to future investigations into child abuse? Surely, Mr Watson’s activities were wholly reprehensible. He had a duty to inform the police, and then keep quiet.

[Lord Bates]

I appreciate my noble friend’s feelings, but he will understand that, because some aspects of these issues are the subject of ongoing review and investigation, it is not possible for me to comment further. Suffice it to say that, because of the seriousness of the allegations, it behoves every person in public life, wherever they are, to apply the most rigorous and judicious process to the words and language they use and to the accusations they make.

Counter-Terrorism and Security Bill

Debate between Lord Lamont of Lerwick and Lord Bates

Wednesday 4th February 2015 Lords Chamber

[Lord Lamont of Lerwick (Con)]

I apologise. I have just rushed into the Chamber and caught my noble friend’s words. What interests me is the phrase used in the guidelines to which we shall come later. That phrase is “non-violent extremism”. My noble friend has talked about extremism and terrorism, but will he talk specifically about non-violent extremism? We heard the remarks of the noble Lord, Lord Macdonald, about the teaching of Plato and other people talked about classes in which they had discussed the pros and cons of authoritarianism versus democracy. I once attended a meeting at Queen Mary College where a lot of Muslim students said—very politely and while making it clear that they opposed violence and terrorism—that they did not believe in western-style democracy. That was what the discussion was about. What sort of non-violent extremism are the Government worried about? Some people might consider some forms of modern art to be non-violent extremism.

[Lord Bates]

The definition that we are working to—I shall put it on the record for my noble friend as we have been through this a number of times in Committee—is,

“vocal or active opposition to fundamental British values, including democracy, the rule of law, individual liberty, mutual respect and tolerance of different faiths and beliefs”.

We also include in our definition of extremism calls for the death of members of our Armed Forces. People may want to argue with that or take issue with it, but that is the definition we are working to.

The point that I wanted to make, in referring back to the earlier Statement, relates to something that the noble Lord, Lord Scriven, asked me about. In Rotherham, one of the central findings of Louise Casey’s report was that because of “cultural sensitivities”, people had failed in their duty to protect children at risk in that area. We cannot be in that position. All that we are interested in here is protecting the liberty of the entire community of the United Kingdom. That includes people of all faiths and none, from a range of different backgrounds and traditions. I wanted, first, to put a marker down for that principle—that we need to focus above all on the values of democracy and individual liberty, which some people would seek to undermine.

The second point made was a fair one—that what we should be doing with Prevent is, at best, not something imposed from the top down. The noble Lords, Lord Hussain, Lord Scriven and Lord Judd, and my noble friend Lady Hamwee made that point. That is why, in the consultation on the guidance, we have said that we want people to come up with their own plan. We cannot not have a plan for dealing with something that is focused on trying to undermine the things that free speech, universities, schools and British values are all about. We cannot step aside from that. But if ideas come from the bottom up, so much the better. That would be entirely compliant with the spirit and the letter of the Bill.

I shall now deal with a couple of the specific points in the amendments. Amendment 13A probes the use of the word “due ” in the context of the requirement in Clause 25 to have “due regard” to the need to prevent people from being drawn into terrorism. The amendment probes why the word “due” appears here but not in Clause 28, which requires specified authorities simply to “have regard” to guidance issued relating to compliance with the Prevent duty. This is quite a technical drafting point, but I will seek to address my noble friend’s concerns. The term “due” in Clause 25 indicates that, in the exercise of their functions, specified authorities will need to have regard to a number of different factors and the intention is that by stipulating that they must have,

“due regard to the need to prevent people from being drawn into terrorism”,

they place sufficient, proportionate weight on this consideration among the many that are relevant to the performance of those functions. In complying with the Prevent duty, however, authorities should have regard to only one guidance document, so there is not the same requirement to weigh up competing guidance and “due” is therefore unnecessary here.