Queen’s Speech

Lord Lamont of Lerwick Excerpts

Wednesday 8th January 2020 Lords Chamber

Moved on Thursday 19 December 2019 by

[Lord Lamont of Lerwick]

That an Humble Address be presented to Her Majesty as follows:

“Most Gracious Sovereign—We, Your Majesty’s most dutiful and loyal subjects, the Lords Spiritual and Temporal in Parliament assembled, beg leave to thank Your Majesty for the most gracious Speech which Your Majesty has addressed to both Houses of Parliament.”

[The Advocate-General for Scotland (Lord Keen of Elie) (Con)]

My Lords, it is a privilege to open the third day of debate on Her Majesty’s most gracious Speech. I begin by wishing all noble Lords a happy and prosperous new year.

The focus of today’s debate on home affairs, justice, constitutional affairs and devolved affairs will enable us to explore some of the key themes of the gracious Speech. That includes the Government’s commitments to making our streets safer, which is the first duty of any Government; to review the way the constitution works in our modern society to ensure that our democracy and the rights of all are protected and supported; to deliver further for the whole of our union, investing in and levelling up every part of England, Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland; and to improve the criminal justice system so that it is fair, proportionate and supports victims to get the justice they deserve. Given the wealth of experience represented on all sides of the House, both my noble friend Lady Williams and I look forward to hearing the contributions from noble Lords.

We were all shocked and appalled by the scenes at London Bridge at the end of last year. I express my deepest condolences to the families and friends of Jack Merritt and Saskia Jones. I also pay tribute to those members of the public and the emergency services who ran towards danger. The incident was a shocking reminder of the threats we face from terrorism. The Government’s top priority is the safety and security of the public, and that is why we will introduce changes to ensure that the worst terrorist offenders spend the appropriate amount of time in prison. We want to give the public greater confidence that the sentences served by terrorists reflect the level of their offending and the risk they represent.

The Government have also been clear that the most serious violent and sexual offenders must serve sentences that truly reflect the severity of the crime. We will toughen community orders, so that they deliver an appropriate level of punishment, and address issues such as mental health or substance misuse.

As well as getting tougher on criminals, we also recognise that being a victim of a crime can be a life-changing event and the way that people are treated in the justice system can have a huge impact in helping them to recover. The Government are determined to ensure that victims receive the support they need and the justice they deserve. That is why we have committed to guaranteeing victims’ rights in legislation, through a victims law. Our law will build on the rights to which victims are entitled as set out in the victims’ code and ensure that they fully understand the level of support they can expect. Furthermore, we are committed to consider increasing the powers of the Victims’ Commissioner, so that they can better hold government to account. To deliver this we will seek views on a revised victims’ code in early 2020 and bring forward a consultation on our new victims law as soon as possible thereafter. Noble Lords will agree that such an approach will ensure that victims of crime receive the best support and the understanding they need to enable them to cope and recover.

Recent cases have underlined the anguish for families when offenders are released in spite of refusing to disclose the location of their victims’ remains. This Government have brought forward legislation to make sure that an offender’s failure to disclose these details about their offences is considered by the Parole Board as part of its assessment as to whether they should be released from prison. We are grateful to the family of Helen McCourt, who have underlined the significant importance of this issue. The legislation also makes provision to address circumstances where offenders fail to disclose the identities of children who are the subject of indecent images.

Domestic abuse can shatter the lives of victims and tears families apart. In the year ending March 2019, an estimated 2.4 million adults experienced domestic abuse. The domestic abuse Bill will transform the response to domestic abuse to better protect victims and their children, and to ensure they have the support they need and that offenders are brought to justice. We need to build a society that has zero tolerance when it comes to domestic abuse and empowers people to confront it. This Bill will be a step towards that.

Marriage will always be of vital importance to our society, but when people take the difficult decision to divorce, the legal process should not incentivise conflict. The current process incentivises that one spouse makes allegations about the other’s conduct, to avoid otherwise waiting for at least two years of separation. The new process will remove the requirement to prove that the marriage has broken down irretrievably. Where reconciliation is not possible, the new process will encourage couples to approach arrangements for the future as constructively and co-operatively as is possible.

The Government are committed to ensuring a fair justice system that works for everyone and commands public confidence. We will establish a royal commission on the criminal justice process in England and Wales which will deliver a fundamental review of some of the key issues affecting the system now, and which may do so in the future. The Government will set out the terms of reference for the royal commission in due course, which will include details on the scope, duration and membership of the commission.

After Brexit, United Kingdom businesses, individuals and families will still need to be able to settle cross-border disputes. That is why we are bringing forward a Bill enabling us to operate agreements on private international law after we leave the EU. These agreements can help to return home a child abducted by one of their parents, help two parents living in different countries to agree custody arrangements in the best interests of their children, or help a UK business to resolve issues with a supplier based abroad. Without these agreements, people involved in cross-border disputes will find it more difficult to resolve them. This Bill will give United Kingdom businesses, citizens and families the confidence to work, live and trade across borders, and will help the UK to flourish as a trading nation, as we leave the European Union.

Following our exit from the European Union, the government will bring an end to free movement to ensure that the UK can take back control and introduce an Australian-style points-based immigration system that prioritises people’s skills and contributions to the UK. While seizing this opportunity, we remain committed to ensuring that resident European citizens—people who are our family, friends, neighbours and colleagues and who have built their lives here and contributed so much to this country—have the right to remain.

The tragic killing of PC Andrew Harper last summer and the incident at London Bridge in November illustrated how police officers put their lives on the line and make sacrifices day in and day out in the course of their duties to assist others. The Government are committed to the recruitment of 20,000 police officers over the next three years and we have already begun recruiting new officers. We are also committed to providing the police with the powers, support and protection they need to do their jobs effectively and safely. That is why we are putting our commitment to a police covenant on a statutory footing. We are strengthening the powers available to the police to allow them to tackle unauthorised encampments. We will also introduce measures to strengthen the legal protection given to police drivers when pursuing a subject or responding to an emergency. This will ensure that the police have the protections and the powers they need to continue with their vitally important work.

Along with further protections and powers for our police officers, we will also award them the power to arrest individuals who are wanted by trusted international partners. We will ensure that the police do not have to allow known offenders, flagged on Interpol systems, to walk free while they seek a warrant. The provision will see people who are wanted for a serious crime in a country such as Canada or America and who may be a danger to the public brought before a judge within 24 hours to allow extradition proceedings to commence and thus make the streets of the UK safer.

The Government are working hard to improve the efficient and effective removal of foreign national offenders from the UK. However, tougher action is needed to stop abuse of the system, speed up the process for deporting foreign national offenders and deter foreign criminals from coming to the UK. That is why the Government will significantly increase the maximum penalty for those who return to the UK in breach of a deportation order, sending a clear message to criminals who seek to return to the UK, namely: if you try to return, you will go to prison for a long time.

The Government are absolutely committed to tackling serious violence and making our streets safer. We are determined to stop young people being drawn into crime. We need to understand and address the factors that cause someone to commit violent crime in the first place. That is why the Government will bring forward a new legal duty which will ensure that all agencies work together to share intelligence and identify warning signs, so that we can intervene earlier, protect young people and prevent and reduce serious violence in local areas.

The United Kingdom and its allies face sustained hostile activity from certain states, as illustrated by the Salisbury attack. We are committed to empowering the brave men and women of our law enforcement and security services with the tools they need to tackle these evolving threats. The espionage Bill will modernise existing offences to deal more effectively with the espionage threat.

One of this Government’s key priorities is the integrity and prosperity of the union that binds the four nations of the United Kingdom. Our union is the most successful economic and political partnership in history, and it is at its strongest when all four nations work together. We are committed to getting Stormont functioning again and we will continue to work with Northern Ireland’s political parties to re-establish the Executive and the Assembly. Following the UK’s departure from the European Union, we will devolve and empower regions across England so that decisions and powers sit in the right place and closer to people than ever before. As set out in the gracious Speech, the Government are committed to levelling up powers and investment in the regions across England and will also introduce a bold new UK shared prosperity fund to tackle inequality and deprivation in each of the four nations and across all regions of the United Kingdom

The measures outlined in the gracious Speech set out a clear direction for the future of the United Kingdom, for a country with safer streets where the most serious offenders spend longer in prison and tougher community sentences address underlying causes of crime—one that ensures that victims receive justice and have rights enshrined in law to support them throughout the process.

We want a society with zero tolerance for domestic abuse that empowers people to confront it, that values marriage but accepts the realities of divorce, and gives the necessary powers as well as the legal protections our police officers need to do their jobs and keep us safe. We want a nation that works with others to settle cross-border disputes, values immigration but prioritises the skills it needs and rejects foreign criminals from our shores swiftly and decisively, where state agencies work together to address serious violence tou keep our young people safe from harm. We want a United Kingdom that works together, where every constituent part and region is empowered with the necessary political will, the right levels of investment, and the ability to make decisions in its own best interests, where opportunity is levelled up and every single person can thrive. Over the coming weeks and months, I look forward to debating with your Lordships the many measures which I have outlined today.

Brexit: Negotiations

Lord Lamont of Lerwick Excerpts

Tuesday 20th November 2018 Lords Chamber

[Lord Lamont of Lerwick (Con)]

My Lords, it is extremely difficult, as the noble Lord, Lord Steel, said, not to sympathise with the Prime Minister in this incredibly difficult situation in an incredibly difficult negotiation. She is entitled to a fair hearing and the deal to dispassionate consideration. None the less, it would be fair to say that the reception the deal has received has been less than rapturous, with criticism not just from the Opposition but from within the Conservative Party from leavers on the one hand and remainers on the other. There have been Cabinet resignations as well, and it seems obvious that some in the Cabinet, although staying, are considering their position.

It was in 1997 that William Hague campaigned in the election on the slogan “In Europe but not run by Europe”. Jo Johnson, in his resignation statement, said that we now seem to be in the position where we will be out of Europe but run by Europe—and, as the noble Lord, Lord Steel, added, at considerable cost as well. Jo Johnson referred to the inability to have free trade agreements or to make competitive adjustments through regulation. If Brexit is to be like that, it will indeed be pointless.

I appreciate that many of the restrictions or provisions to which people such as Jo Johnson and his brother object are temporary. Personally, I would support the deal if it could be demonstrated that these restrictions were indeed temporary, but we seem to be in danger of drifting into the limbo of a never-ending transitional period. For that reason, one of the biggest concerns is the key point mentioned by my noble friends Lord Howard and Lord King, and the noble Lord, Lord Morrow: the exit mechanism from the two backstops. Indeed, the Irish backstop is extremely significant, with 68 pages in Annexe 5 listing different regulations that will apply in Northern Ireland.

The Government originally asked for, but failed to get, the right to leave the backstop after a period of time. Now, the documents refer to assurances that it will be temporary. To some people, it seems as though the EU has a veto on when this period will end. If the two sides cannot agree that it is no longer necessary to meet the objectives of the protocol, the arbitration panel will come into place. However, in matters of interpretation of EU law, it has to refer to the European Court of Justice. Martin Howe QC has said that this will mean that the arbitration panel is merely a postbox for the ECJ. I know that the Minister will say that it does not matter, that it will not come into effect if a long-term trade agreement is reached before December 2020— but it will not be. It is highly unlikely that it will, as the former President of the Council of Ministers, Monsieur Van Rompuy, said on the “Today” programme just two days ago.

Does that really matter? I think it matters profoundly. The protocol means that the EU has no incentive to offer a trade agreement better than that in the protocol. The protocol is based on the association agreements between the EU and Ukraine, Georgia and Moldova, but even Moldova has a break clause in its agreement, unlike us. Is this a matter of concern to only a few swivel-eyed Eurosceptics or is it a matter of real concern and a real point of debate? This is what Carl Baudenbacher, a very distinguished judge at the EFTA Court and for a considerable time the president of the EFTA Court, said:

“It is absolutely unbelievable that a country like the UK, which was the first country to accept independent courts, would subject itself to this”.


It seems to me that we need to alter the arbitration procedures for there to be any chance of this deal passing the House of Commons.

European Union (Withdrawal) Bill

Lord Lamont of Lerwick Excerpts

Committee: 2nd sitting (Hansard - continued): House of Lords
Monday 26th February 2018 Lords Chamber

[Lord Adonis]

My understanding is that it is the policy of Her Majesty’s Government to put in jeopardy the free trade we currently enjoy in the European Union. If the Government were in favour of free trade, we would stay in the customs union and in the single market. These are straightforward, obvious propositions. The policy of the Government tends only towards reducing free trade with the single biggest set of trading partners that we have at the moment.

[Lord Lamont of Lerwick (Con)]

How is the noble Lord just about the only person in this House who does not know that the Government have stated over and over and over again that they want a free trade agreement with the European Union?

[Lord Adonis]

My Lords, the best free trade agreement to have with the European Union is the one that we are currently in. That is patently obvious. When you have an existing set of satisfactory arrangements, the idea that the policy for improving them is to undermine them is total nonsense.

I hope the noble Baroness will give us some assurance that she understands the significant security dimension that is at stake in our leaving the European Union and the importance of having close alignment on trade, not least so as not to weaken our collective security with our European friends and allies.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Hamilton of Epsom]

My Lords, before my noble friend the Minister winds up this debate, I would like to address the problem of him being constantly accused of not spelling out the Government’s position. We are mid-negotiations. Surely, if you are negotiating with the EU, it is very difficult to reveal your negotiating position. Our experience of dealing with the EU is that when we start to reveal our negotiating position, it immediately laughs at us and tells us that it is absolutely ridiculous for us to think that we are going to get these concessions, and that we are cherry-picking and want to have our cake and eat it and all this sort of thing. It seems to me that the Government are in a very difficult position. They have to hold this debate because we are processing the Bill through Parliament, but simultaneously we are trying to negotiate with the EU. We cannot reveal our position. The overall position is that nothing is agreed until everything is agreed.

[Lord Lamont of Lerwick]

I totally agree with what my noble friend is saying. It is very important that that point is made: it is not made often enough and could be made every time on every amendment. Does he agree that the most absurd question of all, which we have had several times on previous amendments, is for the Government to be asked what their fallback position is? How on earth can someone in a negotiation say what their fallback position is?

[Lord Hamilton of Epsom]

My noble friend is absolutely right. Of course, the EU is watching all this extremely closely because it is desperate to try to snarl up the whole process so that we cannot leave. The fact that a referendum involving a democratic vote was held on this is regarded by most people in the Commission as a sign of weakness. I think it was President Macron who said the other day that if a referendum were held on whether France should pull out of the EU, the leavers would win, but of course he was not going to allow a referendum. I am sure that that will go down in history along with other French expressions such as “Let them eat cake”.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Goldsmith (Lab)]

My Lords, we now come to the first group of amendments that deals with the exclusion from the Bill of the European Charter of Fundamental Rights. A number of amendments relate to the exclusion of the charter and to its specific provisions, so this may be a convenient place to debate the general principle of what the Government are proposing and the issues to which that gives rise. I shall therefore speak also to Amendments 14, 20, 25 and 34. Amendments 46, 47, 333 and 347 are consequential and I apprehend that there will be no need to say anything more about them.

The starting point for these amendments is the Government’s decision to exclude the European Charter of Fundamental Rights from the carryover into domestic law of existing EU law that the Bill is otherwise designed to achieve. As noble Lords know, and as the Government have been at pains to point out, the purpose of the Bill is to maintain legal continuity, certainty and stability for businesses and individuals by incorporating EU law as it stands into UK law. As the Prime Minister said in her foreword to the White Paper, the purpose is to ensure that:

“The same rules and laws will apply on the day after exit as on the day before”.


The White Paper goes on to explain that it will then be for democratically elected representatives in the UK, in this Parliament and the devolved Administrations, to decide whether to change that law after full and proper scrutiny and debate. This decision to bring EU law into UK law at the moment of exit is an essential part of the plan to provide clarity and is necessary, it is said by the Government, to bolster confidence and planning as the Brexit process comes into effect. The noble Baroness the Lord Privy Seal said at Second Reading that this is,

“about ensuring that people’s rights are maintained. It is vital to a smooth and orderly exit from the EU”.—[Official Report, 30/1/18; col. 1374.]

However, there is one glaring and deeply troubling exception to the proposal to bring EU law into domestic law so that it is the same the day after exit as it was the day before: the exclusion of the charter, in its entirety, from this exercise.

In another place, the Solicitor-General described the exercise as downloading EU law into domestic law, but what is not being downloaded is the charter. In another place, Sir Keir Starmer noted that although thousands of provisions of EU law are being converted into domestic law, and may have to be modified in some sense after that exercise, only one provision in the thousands on thousands of provisions of EU law is singled out for extinction, and that is the charter. That gives rise to a conundrum.

[Lord Lamont of Lerwick]

Is the noble and learned Lord going to come on to explaining why it was, when he was Attorney-General and working with Tony Blair, he worked so hard to try to get the charter excluded from the Lisbon treaty? Indeed, they thought they had achieved such an opt-out from the treaty until it was overruled subsequently by the European Court of Justice. Surely what we are doing now is trying to fulfil the objective that he himself had in mind.

[Noble Lords]

Oh!

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Goldsmith]

The noble Lord knows that that is not the position in relation to the principles: they are guidance and aspirational. I am not spending a lot of time on them, although some of the NGOs have. I will give one example. There was a case in which the EU’s proposed legislation in relation to plain packaging of tobacco products was challenged in the courts on the grounds that it contravened freedom of expression. One of the things that the court looking at that noted was that the charter provided for a high degree of public protection in terms of health. I hope that all noble Lords agree with that sentiment, whether or not they agree with the result of the case. That is an example of where the principles come into effect.

[Lord Lamont of Lerwick]

I apologise for interrupting the noble and learned Lord a second time. We have listened to what he has said with great care. He has spoken for 34 minutes. He said that he would answer the question I posed at the very beginning of his speech—namely, why he had altered his mind when previously he had tried to keep the charter out of the Lisbon treaty, when he then said that it ought to have no direct domestic effect. Why has he changed his mind?

[Lord Goldsmith]

My Lords, I was about to come to that and I am grateful to the noble Lord.

--- Later in debate ---

Perhaps I may give a concrete example that may trouble your Lordships. As I understand the policy of Mr Corbyn and his colleagues, it is to nationalise a number of public services and utilities, and he asserts that this can be done at nil cost. This implies either no compensation for the owners of the assets or compensation that is calculated in a wholly derisory way so as to produce nothing or near to nothing.

[Lord Lamont of Lerwick]

The reason that the Labour Party says that nationalisation of the railways would cost nothing is that the shadow Chancellor thinks that financing things by bonds is costless. That is what he has said.

--- Later in debate ---

There is no reason why the United Kingdom should not be able to continue to apply the rights in the charter to retained EU law. If, as has already been said in this debate, at any future stage it is thought that the rights go too far, that is a matter for Parliament, in the normal process of primary legislation, to change. What we seek to do in this case is to ensure that on the day after exit the law is the same as it was on the day before exit. It is what the Government say they want to do, and that is why I encourage the Government to accept the spirit and the letter of these amendments.

[Lord Lamont of Lerwick]

My Lords—

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Taylor of Holbeach (Con)]

It is the turn of my noble friend.

[Lord Lamont of Lerwick]

My Lords, I shall speak to Amendment 14, the effect of which is to retain the charter as part of domestic law and to retain EU law under which claimants would be able to have domestic legislation struck down on the basis of incompatibility with the charter. Some noble Lords have expressed the view that they were baffled by the exclusion of the charter from this legislation, but I felt that the arguments were put very simply and cogently by the noble and learned Lord, Lord Brown of Eaton-under-Heywood, at Second Reading when he simply pointed out that the charter is only one part of our extensive framework of human rights, that there would be a risk of confusion because of conflict with the ECHR and that what this was doing was complicating the situation to no good purpose.

Furthermore, the Secretary of State for Exiting the European Union has produced a memorandum showing how existing rights are being provided for in the legislation and in retained law. He has also gone further and said that if anyone can provide specific examples of rights that are not provided for, he will give the matter due consideration. Various people have suggested various things that may or may not be suitable for inclusion, but they will no doubt be considered by the Secretary of State and could be considered for primary legislation.

I asked the noble and learned Lord why he had changed his mind about the incorporation of the charter, which he and Prime Minister Blair strongly opposed in the Lisbon treaty. I do not want to go over that, as I think I made my point, but I suggest to the noble and learned Lord that he had very good reasons for excluding it, and that now is an opportunity—

[Lord Goldsmith]

In fact, this country accepted that the charter would become part of EU law in the Lisbon treaty—it is the opposite of what the noble Lord said.

[Lord Lamont of Lerwick]

Against the noble and learned Lord’s will. There was also an attempt to get an opt-out, which the European Court of Justice said was not valid. I see that the Minister is agreeing with me. I believe that is a correct account of what happened. It was struck down. The case in which it happened was, I think, Aklagaren v Hans Akerberg Fransson.

[Lord Pannick]

Would the noble Lord accept that there are many areas of EU law which this country has opposed but which have nevertheless become part of EU law? This Bill seeks to exclude none of them from retained EU law, other than the charter. Why is that?

[Lord Lamont of Lerwick]

That is very much my argument. For reasons that I wish to develop, I agree very much with the noble Baroness, Lady Deech, and what was said by my noble friend Lord Faulks about the confusion and conflict that this will cause between the role of the European Court of Justice and our own courts. The President of the Supreme Court has already called for further clarification of the relationship the Supreme Court will have with the European Court of Justice. It seems to me, for reasons I am about to give, that this would be made even worse if we incorporated the charter into the Bill and into UK law.

The retention of the charter would lead to real problems of uncertainty and confusion. Above all, retaining the charter would give the ECJ even more continued influence over our courts. I accept what the noble and learned Lord has said, that there is going to be a relationship for a while with the jurisprudence of the ECJ, but incorporating the charter will give much more opportunity for what people have called judicial adventurism from the European Court of Justice, as it continues to expand the interpretation of the charter. This is not an obsession of Conservatives. I draw the Committee’s attention to what the late Lord Bingham, I think, said in evidence to the House of Lords EU Committee in 2016. He said that although,

“the European Court of Human Rights is a very benign institution … the European Court of Justice in Luxembourg has predatory qualities to it that could be very inimical to some of our national practices”.

That is a reference to the expansionist activities of the ECJ. The charter, as many people know, is extremely loosely worded. The risk of leaving the charter in place is that it allows the ECJ, while it still has jurisdiction over us and our Supreme Court, to expand the charter into new areas. I am not suggesting that the rights we have are frozen for ever or should not be expanded, but merely that that is something that should be decided in this country by our Parliament.

I am also concerned, because of this and the expansion of activities of the ECJ, that if the charter were incorporated our courts would acquire the power to strike down statute on the basis of incompatibility with the charter, which is the point that the noble Baroness, Lady Deech, was making. The noble Lord, Lord Pannick, referred to the Factortame case, which was a notorious example where an Act of Parliament was actually struck down. We do not want to create another situation in which domestic courts can strike down Acts of Parliament.

It is the European Court of Justice that interprets what the charter means within the European Union, so if the charter is incorporated into law, what relationship is then going to exist between the Supreme Court and the ECJ? As the ECJ continues to develop its interpretation of the charter, we would be on a road where we had to take it more and more into account. On the basis of what has been said, we must avoid that confusion.

If there are gaps in the rights, we have an opportunity to incorporate them with primary legislation. For example, people have been saying in some of the debates that there are various matters relating to the environment that are not covered. However, we will have a new environment Act and a new environment agency. That seems to me to be the way to cope with any rights that are not fully covered, and it is far better to avoid the confusion of incorporating the charter into UK law.

Queen’s Speech

Lord Lamont of Lerwick Excerpts

Wednesday 28th June 2017 Lords Chamber

[Lord Lamont of Lerwick (Con)]

My Lords, I follow my noble friend Lord Hunt in appealing, perhaps in vain, for rather more cross-party consensus on this issue.

I also want to follow, from a different perspective, what the noble Lord, Lord Wallace of Saltaire, said, deploring the nature of our debate, the empty phrases there have been and the tilting at windmills that has gone on. We have heard a tremendous amount about objections to a “hard Brexit”, but the people who say that so seldom define what they actually mean by it. I can think of three or four meanings of the term. Another phrase that has aroused ire has been the Prime Minister’s statement that no deal could be better than a bad deal. By saying that, the Prime Minister never meant her goal was that she was aiming at no deal. As the noble and learned Lord, Lord Brown, said, it is obvious common sense that it would be ludicrous to say any deal was better than no deal; that would not put British negotiators in a strong position and it is an illogical statement.

We all know that in politics a good cry works wonders. We see the phrase “the single market” waved around as though that was an argument in itself. The question is not the single market but membership of it. Why should membership of the single market have any advantage over a free trade deal with it? That is the real question. Most puzzling of all—I was amazed by what the noble Lord, Lord Adonis, said—we also get the phrase “the customs union” waved around as though it was an argument in itself. I thought we had come a long way; I thought we believed in free trade. Many of those who advocate remaining in the customs union, behind the tariff wall, are those who used to deplore the stalling of the free trade talks and the Doha round. One would have thought they would have been well beyond the idea of a customs union, an idea that I think is completely outdated. Then we are told, “Well, we must have a Brexit for jobs and for the economy”. We can all say amen to that; it is precisely the object of the negotiations.

I listened with great admiration to the speech of the most reverend Primate the Archbishop of Canterbury when he talked about the need to remove or lessen the toxicity of this debate. He appealed for more mutual understanding. He put forward the idea of a joint commission. I do not agree with that, but I understand and agree with the spirit behind his idea. We should not be against co-operation, we should not be against consultation with other parties, if it is done seriously and sincerely. In fact, the manifesto positions of the two main parties have an awful lot in common. I say the two main parties because I obviously exclude the Liberals, who seem to have adopted the position of Bertolt Brecht in 1953 after the East German uprising, when he sarcastically stated that the Government should dissolve the people and elect another. It ought to be possible to transform the public mandate for Brexit into a political consensus between the main parties.

It is hardly surprising that the position of the two main parties has been converging because, although it is not popular to say in this House, the public recognise the need to control our borders, not least at a time when the population increased last year by 580,000 people. Of course, with control we will still be able to have come as immigrants into this country people with the necessary skills, or the necessary unskilled people to fill certain jobs, but the public have made it very clear that they wanted tighter control of our borders. Once one has accepted that, once one has also accepted free trade, the logic is inescapable that one must leave the single market.

There is so much that we agree on, so much that was agreed in the two manifestos, such as the position of EU nationals, in principle. We possibly need some transitional phase—only in the sense of implementation —in order to have no cliff edge. The noble Lord, Lord Hill, the former Commissioner who has so much experience of the EU, advised this House—I think he was advising the Brexiteers particularly—that we should watch our rhetoric because, he said, Brussels follows what is said and what is written in the British newspapers; it follows our debates. I agree, but that advice applies to both sides; it applies to the noble Lord, Lord Wallace, and the Liberals as well. They should be careful of their language. Whatever our views, it is in the interests of everyone and in the interests of the country to get the best deal. There will be ups and downs in the negotiations. Pouncing with glee on any remark made by Monsieur Barnier or any moment when some request by the British side has been rejected is not helpful or in the national interest. The wrong rhetoric here can give the wrong impression in Brussels.

Brexit has not been altered by the election result: 580 MPs ran on manifestos that promise to honour the referendum result and explicitly to leave the single market and end free movement, and this House by consensus should support that.

Scotland Bill

Lord Lamont of Lerwick Excerpts

Tuesday 24th November 2015 Lords Chamber

[Lord Dunlop]

As I said, we are working very hard to get this fiscal framework agreed as quickly as we can. This House considered the tax provisions of the previous Scotland Bill on their merits but, when it did so, aspects such as the block grant adjustment had not been agreed, so there is a precedent here. However, as I said, these two processes need to come together, and that is what we are working hard to achieve.

This House will be involved in the normal way if legislation is needed to implement aspects of the framework. To help the House fulfil its scrutiny role, the order of consideration for Committee will ensure that Parts 2 and 3 of the Bill—its tax and welfare clauses—are scrutinised at the end of Committee, giving more time for the negotiations to progress. As I have already said, it is the firm intention of the UK Government that the fiscal framework should be available to both the Scottish Parliament and both Houses of the UK Parliament before the passage of the Scotland Bill is completed. I shall be happy to say more about the fiscal framework in my closing speech and I particularly look forward to listening to what the noble Lord, Lord Hollick, has to say.

The Government believe that the new powers contained in the Smith agreement provide the basis for a stable devolution settlement for Scotland. Both Governments will need to work together to ensure that the powers are used effectively. The powers in the Bill are substantial and offer real opportunities to develop Scottish solutions to Scottish issues. This is not devolution in isolation but part of a broader process that recognises the need to reflect changes in other parts of the UK and that one size does not fit all.

[Lord Lamont of Lerwick (Con)]

I get the impression that the Minister is getting towards the end of his speech. If I heard him correctly, he said that he would give an explanation of the second no-detriment principle, and I very much hope that he is going to do that.

[Lord Dunlop]

I need to make progress, as a lot of noble Lords want to speak. I have a closing speech and will say more about the fiscal framework in response to points made during the debate.

At this stage, let me conclude by saying that I am confident that the settlement agreed by the Smith commission, as set out in the Bill, will show itself in time to be durable. I beg to move.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Wallace of Tankerness]

My Lords, I am not sure what, if anything, was said in the House of Commons about the lack of the fiscal framework when the Bill was being debated there—in fairness, I am sure that it was discussed—but what I have said is that the Government should be seeking to negotiate for the whole of the United Kingdom: there should be fairness all round with regard to this.

Crucially, we should make it very clear that Scotland should bear the full fiscal consequences of its own decisions. There has been some suggestion somewhere that there has been a bit of “cake and eat it”: that somehow or other, if things go wrong, Westminster will top it up. There are those of us who believe that the important rationale for more tax powers is accountability, but that goes out the window unless—for better or worse—the Scottish Parliament accepts responsibility and accountability for the consequences of its decisions.

In conclusion, the important thing that many of us want is to get on and use the powers. From next April, there will be the Scottish rate of income tax. We look forward, once this Bill is implemented, to more than £15 billion-worth of tax powers and £3 billion-worth of welfare.

[Lord Lamont of Lerwick]

I am most grateful to the noble and learned Lord for giving way and apologise for having hesitated for a moment; I was just reflecting on what he had said. I strongly agree with him about the Scottish Government accepting responsibility when they have the power to make individual decisions relating to rates of income tax. He said they must be accountable because they have the responsibility, but is that not utterly inconsistent with the idea of the second no-detriment principle which seeks to safeguard them and does it not make a nonsense of the responsibility that they have?

[Lord Wallace of Tankerness]

I look forward with interest to what the Government have to say on the second no-detriment principle. If I may say so, one of the shortcomings of the Smith commission report—I am sorry, this will have to take up a bit more time—is that it just gives a heading on page 26 that says:

“No detriment as a result of UK Government or Scottish Government policy decisions post-devolution”.

It then says:

“Where either the UK or the Scottish Governments makes policy decisions that affect the tax receipts or expenditure of the other, the decision-making government will either reimburse the other if there is an additional cost, or receive a transfer from the other if there is a saving. There should be a shared understanding”.

Scotland has powers over the threshold and rates of income tax. As I understood it—no doubt the noble Lord, Lord Smith of Kelvin, will be able to tell us—if for example, as was indicated, the United Kingdom Government were to change the definition of an income tax payer, that could have an impact on Scottish tax rates. I see that as the other detriment that would have to be addressed. It is certainly how I understood it—but more important is how the Government understand it. Thank goodness I do not have to answer for that any longer.

This should actually be an exciting time. The two most exciting elections I fought in Scotland were in 1999 and 2003, when we had got the constitutional settlement and were debating how we would use the powers we had. That made for real political debate. We should be able to use the powers imaginatively. Parties should be able to debate how we set out an agenda for an enterprising Scotland, a more socially just Scotland, a greener Scotland and a fairer Scotland, and how we can benefit all its communities—not just in the central belt but from the islands down to the Borders. This Bill is not an end in itself. It is a means to try and improve the governance of Scotland and the accountability of that governance, give the Scottish people an opportunity to take more decisions into their own hands and build the kind of Scotland we want to see. The Bill has our support.