Enterprise and Regulatory Reform Bill

Debate between Lord Knight of Weymouth and Lord Plumb

Wednesday 16th January 2013 Grand Committee

[Lord Knight of Weymouth]

I hesitate to interrupt the noble Lord, who is such an authority on agriculture in this House, but the figure of £500,000 is not accurate. As a point of information, I think it is about £50,000.

[Lord Plumb]

I am inclined to agree that the figure is not accurate. I was quoting from the NFU. I am not the NFU. I was, but I am not now. I think the figure is considerably higher than that. If the noble Lord wants to quote that figure, I am very happy for him to quote it. I was merely quoting the cost of running the outfit, not the whole cost of the operation, including the buildings and everything else. If he wants to do that, I ask him please to produce that figure. I shall be delighted to receive it.

One notes that Unite, which represents farm workers on the board, is today campaigning against its abolition, which one understands, and argues that the plans will put thousands of rural and agriculture workers’ pay and conditions in jeopardy. I do not accept that. I know from experience what is being paid at the moment. You can forget your wages board and your minimum wage. If you are going to employ on your farm today someone who is going to sit on a machine that has probably cost £250,000, you are not going to pay them peanuts to try to get them into employment; you are going to pay them a good living wage. I am a great believer in giving these young people an opportunity to get into a share-farming operation. More and more people are inclined to that sort of determination as we look towards the future.

Rather than foster good labour relations, I believe that the present system is a source of friction and could certainly be done away with. The normal pattern is for the employers and the employees to take turns each year in being disgruntled. The board and the councils were established each year, and we had the Wages Council Act 1947. At their height, there were 100 throughout the country. They were progressively abolished, as we well know and have already heard, particularly between 1979 and 1997, leaving the Agricultural Wages Board as the only remaining example. If they were so vital, why did the previous Labour Government not restore them? Why did they not bring them back saying, “Other workers are going to be damaged”, as they propose farm workers are going to be damaged? They have not been, and we have not got wages boards there. We got rid of them, so why not do the same with agriculture?

Groceries Code Adjudicator Bill [HL]

Debate between Lord Knight of Weymouth and Lord Plumb

Tuesday 24th July 2012 Lords Chamber

[Lord Plumb]

My Lords, I support the Minister’s response. I waited for her comments before I spoke because I was not sure of the exact position now. I tell the noble Lord, Lord Knight, that the negotiations did not take place on Sunday. They took place yesterday. I declare an interest: I was there—not at the negotiations but not far away—and I had a long talk with the Minister, Jim Paice, afterwards and with many of those present who are directly concerned with this issue.

Following the answer given by the Minister, I do not honestly see any need for the noble Lord’s concern or, in fact, the amendment. It would be advisable to wait for the Written Statement due tomorrow because, as my noble friend said, milk will not be left out of this package. Anyone who is appointed to a job as an adjudicator or is concerned with the grocery trade will realise that within it we have a voluntary code of practice that has virtually been agreed by all parties, and which we have been waiting for for some considerable time. Now that the code is there, the dairy trade will inevitably be not only included but prominent in the concern of any adjudicator or in any response that one might have after the appointment of an adjudicator.

I therefore feel confident that there is at the moment no need for the amendment. We should accept the statement made by the Minister here, and we look forward to the further report from the Agriculture Minister tomorrow on the whole situation of the dairy trade.

[Lord Knight of Weymouth]

My Lords, I am grateful to the Minister for her clarifications and to the noble Lord, Lord Plumb, who is never far away from where things are at on these matters and who always speaks with authority on them. I certainly have no wish to interfere with the negotiations or with the voluntary code that is being agreed. I very much applaud the negotiations and the agreements that are coming forward. Clearly, we had a job to do—to scrutinise the Bill—and there was some uncertainty I was looking to be resolved. I am surprised that the Farming Minister did not think it was appropriate to give the Bill Minister in the Lords a call regarding these things because it was fairly obvious these issues might come up today, but that is for the noble Baroness and her colleague to resolve. I think I heard her say correctly from a note that there would be a separate adjudicator if there was to be an adjudicator for the voluntary code. We would subsequently want to explore the efficiency of that arrangement and exactly how it would be drawn up and what status it would have.

We look forward to the Statement from the noble Lord, Lord Taylor of Holbeach, tomorrow. I respectfully ask that some consideration be given as to whether that could be an Oral Statement and not just a Written Statement, because Members of this House may have some questions they would like to be able to ask. Perhaps the noble Baroness could take that back and discuss it with the noble Lord, Lord Taylor, in their office. In the mean time, I am very happy to withdraw my amendment.