Data Protection Bill [HL]
Debate between Lord Knight of Weymouth and Baroness Neville-Rolfe(7 years ago)
Lords ChamberRead Full debate Read Hansard Text Read Debate Ministerial Extracts
Lord Knight of Weymouth
Certainly if the amendment were to have any legs in terms of using the number of employees as a parameter then that would have to be defined. However you chose to define the size of an organisation, you would need to explore how to work that out.
Baroness Neville-Rolfe
I chose five employees because it often denotes a small organisation or a small business. I can see that some of the businesses in that category might be fairly large. I would of course have no objection to adding an extra criterion, such as turnover, if there was a mood to write exemptions into the Bill. Other legislation has exemptions for smaller bodies. The overall objectives of the data protection legislation clearly have to be achieved but I am concerned that, in particular, some of the subsidiary provisions, such as fines and fees, which I mentioned, are demanding and worrying for smaller entities.
Lord Knight of Weymouth
I am grateful for the noble Baroness’s comments. Something certainly can be done to think more about turnover than the number of employees, otherwise there would be a big loophole, particularly around marketing and being able to set up a company to harvest data, for which the Act would not apply. It could then sell the data on. It would not need very many people at all to pursue that opportunity.
The other thing these amendments allow us to do is ask the Minister to enlighten us a little on his thinking about how the Information Commissioner’s role will develop. In particular, if it is to pursue the sorts of education activities set out in these amendments, how will it be resourced to do so? I know there are some career-limiting aspects for Ministers who promise resources from the Dispatch Box, but the more he can set out how that might work, the more welcome that would be.
Consumer Rights Bill
Debate between Lord Knight of Weymouth and Baroness Neville-Rolfe
Lord Knight of Weymouth
Before the Minister gets back into her stride, I hope that she will forgive me if I ask her a question. Before the Bell so rudely interrupted her, she was talking about what happens if a consumer is dissatisfied with an app and whether the consumer should have to delete it from a device. Have she and the Government given any consideration as to whether, in that circumstance, the consumer could require the producer of the app to delete any data it had collected about the consumer, as an aspect of the redress for their dissatisfaction?
Baroness Neville-Rolfe
Perhaps I can come back to that when I finish developing the argument. We had the first point and I am now going to move on to the second about the ease of copying digital content. Digital content is much easier to copy than physical goods because of its intangible nature, creating issues for digital rights managers. Under many existing contractual relations, the trader will make a payment to the original rights holder for each individual who downloads that content. However, if a trader has to refund the consumer for faulty digital content that they have rejected, that may lead to problems between traders and rights holders, given that the trader will be unable to prove to the rights holder whether the digital content was deleted.
A further point is that an error in the code of a digital content product will be replicated in each and every copy of that product, unlike most goods where faults may be restricted to only a few products. Therefore, where faulty digital content is released the trader would potentially have to provide a short-term right to reject to all consumers of that digital content. That would currently be addressed by the trader issuing an update at little inconvenience to consumers. Having to provide a refund to all consumers, in contrast, could have huge consequences for the digital content industry, which we want to support, particularly our growing number of start-ups and micro-businesses. The result would be much more conservative and costly offerings from businesses, which would spend more time in product development. The availability of basic games that the developer improves over time, or the cheap apps that are enjoyed by many consumers, could be significantly affected.
A short-term right to reject is only one aspect of the new law for digital content. As I have already explained, the consumer must have adequate protection in the digital field. Therefore, the Bill introduces consumer quality rights for digital content for the first time. Most faulty digital content will be repaired with an update, but where faulty digital content cannot be repaired or replaced—or where the repair or replacement cannot be done within a reasonable time or without significant inconvenience to the consumer—the consumer will be entitled to some money back. We have made clear in Clause 44(2) that this price reduction could be as much as 100%—so a full refund. Our evidence shows that where traders are not able to repair faulty content, some traders provide a full refund.
Lord Knight of Weymouth
I am sorry to interrupt; I fear that I may become an irritating presence at this stage. Many designers of digital products have to make a decision about browser compliance, for example, if it is a web-based product, whether or not they will go back to old versions of Internet Explorer. Would the rights to which the Minister has just referred apply to digital producers in circumstances where they have had to make a judgment, when they launch their product, that it is not going to work on those old legacy browsers, as so few consumers are still using them?
Baroness Neville-Rolfe
That brings me on to the points raised by the noble Lords, Lord Stevenson and Lord Knight. Perhaps I can touch first on the issue of IP rights to address consumers’ difficulty in deleting faulty digital content. There is a role for IP law and there may be remedies available, but we again need to strike a balance. We do not want to disadvantage consumers who are unable to be sure whether they have fully deleted all copies of their digital content. That is why we have not taken this route and do not feel that it would be great for the consumer.
If I understood the point that the noble Lord, Lord Knight, was making, he asked, “Why isn’t free digital content included? When will we use the powers that are provided in the Bill to cover it?”. There is a power if future evidence of significant consumer detriment arises. That seems to me a sensible provision to make. However, we do not have enough evidence of consumer detriment at present, and requiring remedies could impact on the sometimes narrow profit margins for businesses, leading to fewer offerings to consumers altogether.
Baroness Neville-Rolfe
The department always keeps the operation of new regulations under review, and I can certainly follow up with the precise detail on this provision, if that is helpful.
The noble Lord, Lord Knight, also asked whether the consumer could require a trader to delete any data that they may have collected. In a sense, the answer is similar: it would be a significant departure from the current regime, which traders are familiar with, and of course data protection rules need to be complied with at all times.
The noble Lord, Lord Stevenson, I think asserted that consumers have the right to a refund only if the trader did not have the right to supply it. However, as I have just said under my second general point, the consumer can get 100% of their money back under Clause 44(2) if a repair or replacement cannot be made within a reasonable time or without significant inconvenience.
In conclusion, I have heard the argument in favour of giving intangible digital content the same rights as goods, including applying the short-term right to reject. I realise that there are strong views on both sides of this debate and a keenness to get this area right. We are already improving the situation for digital content by providing new rights when consumers buy digital content. There may be some attractions to the idea of providing exactly the same rights for digital content as goods, but the issues are not clear cut and a balance has to be struck with the impact on industry. To exactly align the rights for digital content and goods could have severe consequences—to the detriment of industry, which would have to bear the costs, and consequently, I fear, to consumers, who might suffer from reduced product offerings, reduced innovation and, ultimately, higher prices. I therefore ask the noble Lord to withdraw his amendment.
Lord Stevenson of Balmacara
I thank the Minister for her response, although I am very disappointed in it. I also thank my noble friend Lord Knight for his contributions. It is obviously going to be a lively afternoon if this is the rate at which he intends to intervene. I encourage him to do so, a bit like “Angry Birds”—or is that the wrong analogy? Just while I have him in my sights, his support for me was, I think, generous but perhaps a little lukewarm on the central point, which we might have a talk about afterwards. However, I also felt two things about what he was saying—which I think is relevant to the debate; I am not trying to pick on him. I agree that very often the download level, at which you are paying a matter of pence for things, can look very trivial, and that perhaps makes the effort of trying to remove the charge uncertain; but there are people in this world who look after the pence and hope that the pounds will look after themselves. For all people we have to be sure that there is not a massive rip-off taking place on a big scale. Prices are important, but they are not the only determinant.
Secondly, the failure to find a way in which one can return intangible downloads is also a way of cluttering up one’s computer. I think that I would be quite pleased if I got rid of some of the stuff that I have wittingly or unwittingly received in my computer which is slowing it down. These are points that we perhaps might come back to.
My main argument is that there is a lack of consistency in approach here. It is therefore not really about the detail, it is about the principles of this. In light of the fact that the consumer can experience some types of digital content in both tangible and intangible form, it seems unarguably the case that we need to have a single remedy and a single process under which that is operating. I think that we are building in problems for ourselves as a society if we do not get this right at this stage, and I fear that the Government are getting it wrong.
There is also a danger that the market will become skewed if one regime is seen to be effective and efficient for tangible goods but there is another for intangible goods. The better consumer protection for tangible goods and materials will be of benefit, and higher prices may even be applied to that area. Again, that would distort the market, which I thought was what we were trying to avoid. The cost elements of the two platforms are an issue to which we would have to return.
The Minister said she was worried about consumers’ willingness to try new and innovative products, but we are not hearing—as we have in previous debates in this Committee—that it is an important tenet of consumers’ interest in new products and innovative solutions that they have security in their rights. If they do not have easy, effective and properly organised rights as regards intangible goods, they will be less likely to take innovative material. That would be bad for innovation and our economy.
The Minister said that what we were asking for was a step too far but, as we heard from my noble friend Lord Knight, there is a huge asymmetry in the relationship between the traders now operating on the internet and consumers. He gave an example about the benefits that come back to producers in the form of personal data and the unwillingness of the Government to take that on board as a serious issue. If a consumer takes a free download in return for providing personal data but has no redress in terms of what the data are used for if he chooses to reject the material he has downloaded, there is a new asymmetry that we need to think carefully about.