Consumer Rights Bill
Debate between Lord Knight of Weymouth and Baroness Jolly
Lord Knight of Weymouth
My Lords, I was using an example that I thought was perfectly realistic. We have seen with the furore around how care data have been handled or mishandled by the Government that the subject of health data is very sensitive, so perhaps I should have used a different example. However, personally, I am of the view that there are times when I want people who are advising me and the professionals assisting me to have rich sources of information about me and my condition, and that is a decision that I can make.
We need all to ensure that we are properly informed as consumers—and this legislation is trying to do that. To me, data are not a scary thing as long as we have proper individual rights over them. What scares me is that I cannot see what data people have about me and I cannot see how other people are using them. I may have some rights through the Data Protection Act but that does not give me any rights to see digital data. It gives me rights to see things on paper. Tesco can come and deliver in a pantechnicon all the data that it has about me, but I cannot then manipulate the data, which is in the end what I would really like—the ability to see them, manipulate them and then decide what I want. There are examples where you might want to use some of your data and license them on a temporary basis to people who then advise you so that they can better personalise their services. But that is a debate that this House should and I am sure will have.
Baroness Jolly
My Lords, Amendment 50L, proposed by the noble Baroness, Lady Hayter, and the noble Lords, Lord Whitty and Lord Stevenson, and the accompanying schedule are about consumers having wider access to the data held on them. I make it clear that the Government support the principle that the public should have access to the data that is held on them; it is in line with our open data policies and activities and with the approach we are taking to the new European data protection regulations. We embrace the principle that, when social benefits can be obtained from anonymised datasets—so-called big data—that should also be supported. That is why, alongside the midata programme, which is concerned with commercially held data, we are also exploring how the data held on individuals by government departments might be made available to those individuals in a useful way. This work is in its early stages, but it is designed to ensure that individuals have access to the information that is held about them by the public sector. It is probably worth mentioning now that the Secretary of State for Health has committed that by 2015 we should all have access to our full health records. In parts of the country where this has been trialled, it has hugely empowered individuals.
I turn now to personal data held by companies and the midata programme. There have been two developments this year that are relevant to the debate. In the personal current account sector, we secured a commitment earlier this year from the big banks to provide consumers’ transaction records—their midata—as downloadable files with a consistent format. This work is progressing well and in June we were able to announce that the technical specification of the data fields to be made available has been agreed. This is no mean achievement. The work is on track to be completed by the end of March next year. This is something that Which? and the comparison sites have been calling for, and so it is very encouraging that the large majority of current account holders in the UK will soon have easy access to their midata files.
The second development is in the energy sector where the facility to download midata files has been available for some time. The Secretary of State for Energy and Climate Change and the Minister for Consumer Affairs held a round-table meeting in June to discuss how the user experience of comparing the market could be made easier using automation. The round table involved energy suppliers, comparison sites, app developers, consumer groups, the Connected Digital Economy Catapult and Ofgem. As a result, a working group comprised of representatives of all these stakeholders has been looking at the feasibility of providing third parties with automated access to consumers’ energy data at those consumers’ request and with their explicit consent. This will avoid the rather tedious process for many of looking for their energy consumption and manually filing it in an online form in order to get an accurate comparison.
The noble Lord, Lord Whitty, raised the issue of collective switching, which is becoming very popular and is reducing energy bills for those who engage. In 2013, DECC awarded 31 successful projects a share of a £5 million competition for collective energy purchasing. I am pleased to report that the work has gone well and that a second ministerial round table at the end of the month will discuss the rollout of this project. The Government hope that the facility for consumers to compare deals quickly and with accurate energy consumption will be available this winter. Again, this is something that has the support of consumer organisations as well as the comparison sites.
The noble Lord also raised the issue of the Consumer Focus Confidence Code. In energy, Ofgem has taken over the former consumer confidence code. Other regulators such as Ofcom and the FCA also oversee comparison sites. In July, the Minister for Consumer Affairs published the results of a review of the voluntary approach to the midata programme that has been followed so far. It addressed the issue of whether the Enterprise and Regulatory Reform Act 2013 powers that became available to us were needed to speed up implementation. The conclusion of the review, in the light of the good progress I have described, was that it is not useful to proceed with legislation at the moment, but that the situation would be kept under regular review. Similarly, where it may be useful to apply the powers to other sectors, the Government are open to this where there is a strong case that doing so would deliver tangible benefits that a voluntary programme could not. The amendment encourages us to go faster and to use the legislation to force the pace. This could disrupt the voluntary programme which has already achieved a great deal. While it is a useful challenge, we do not need new laws to do this, as I hope I have demonstrated; we are doing it already.
The amendment also proposes that the midata powers should be extended to all services provided by the public sector. I have referred to work that is under way to explore how data held on individuals by government departments may be made available to those individuals in a useful way. I have also explained the reasons why services not provided by a trader to a consumer under a contract are not covered by this Bill. The amendment proposes that the Bill should require a report on the information that is provided to consumers about the services they may be commissioning themselves. A good example of where this is already happening is in the provision of care and support under the Care Act 2014. The obligations of local authorities to provide the information people need in an appropriate way are set out in statutory guidance that was published last week. This is just one example of where I believe the Government are already delivering what is being asked for in this amendment.
Finally, the amendment asks for an annual report about the impact of government policies in these areas. I have already talked about the Open Public Services agenda, and the Cabinet Office publishes an annual report on its work on this agenda, which has as an explicit objective to give people the power of choice about what services they receive and the information and insight they need to support that choice.
This year’s report was published in March on the GOV.UK website. One example given is about supporting parental choice on education: the Department for Education’s school and college performance tables provide parents with detailed performance data on primary and secondary schools and providers of 16 to 18 education. The tables received 2.8 million unique visitors in 2013. They provide contextual information, including absence rates, workforce numbers and finance and school census data. The Ofsted School Data Dashboard, which has received 800,000 unique visitors since it was launched in February 2013, provides an analysis of school performance over a three-year period, adding further insight to support parents.
In the light of what I have said, I hope that the Committee is persuaded that the Government take the provision of information to consumers of both public and private services seriously and that good progress is being made. I therefore ask that the amendment be withdrawn.
Consumer Rights Bill
Debate between Lord Knight of Weymouth and Baroness Jolly
Lord Knight of Weymouth
My Lords, last Tuesday I facilitated part of an event at BAFTA organised by Innotech. One of the speakers was a young man, Jamie Woodruff, who has autism but probably earns a good income from being what I think is described as a white-hat hacker. He is a benign hacker who hacks into computer systems but has an ethical agreement whereby he gives people 28 days’ notice to resolve the security problems. If they do not resolve them, he can publish the problems. He did a live hack during the event to show how easy it is to hack into websites and expose the weaknesses that many sites have. That raises a question in my mind about quality.
I raise this issue to give the Minister an opportunity to say a little more about Clause 34(3) in respect of how quality is defined in this context. The word “safety” is used in Clause 34(3)(c). A company may have a business-to-consumer relationship in the course of which it collects a whole bunch of data. The service may be of very high quality in terms of what is described and what the consumer pays for. Indeed, the whole experience may be fine but subsequently it transpires that that business has not bothered to make the consumer’s personal data secure, it is hacked into and they lose their personal data. Does the word “safety” cover that scenario so that the consumer is protected and can have proper redress against that company?
Baroness Jolly
My Lords, this has been an interesting debate. Amendment 34 raises an important issue for digital content—when does a defect in digital content render it faulty and at what point is digital content not of satisfactory quality? I can confirm that BIS has listened to Professor Bradgate. As such, I recognise that some forms of digital content, such as software or games, commonly contain minor defects, or bugs, because it is currently difficult to produce code that is entirely error-free, whereas other types of digital content, such as music files, do not. I know that industry players such as techUK and the Federation Against Software Theft have expressed the concern that complex forms of digital content, such as software, should not be treated in the same way as simpler forms of digital content, such as music files. I believe that the Bill is flexible enough to cope with these differences.
Reasonable consumers understand that some types of digital content sometimes contain minor bugs, and that bugs will usually be fixed along the way through an update, although I went into a reverie at one stage listening to the noble Lord, Lord Knight, and remembered that my very early updates of MS-DOS were actually posted to me on a five and a quarter inch floppy disk, so things have moved on. While I know that the software industry is concerned about the phrase “freedom from minor defects”, the key point is that freedom from minor defects is an aspect of satisfactory quality only “in appropriate cases”.
We have acknowledged in the Explanatory Notes that it is the norm to encounter some bugs in a complex game or piece of software on release. A reasonable person might not expect that type of digital content to be completely free from minor defects. We will also highlight this point in business and consumer guidance when implementing the Bill. That guidance is being written in consultation with industry and consumer stakeholders. The Bill team confirmed this when we went through it again just before this session.
Assessments of satisfactory quality also take into account “all relevant circumstances” and I would expect the type and nature of the digital content to be such a relevant circumstance. However, it is entirely reasonable to expect other forms of digital content, such as MP3 or music files, to be free from minor defects. Such types of digital content would probably not be judged to be of satisfactory quality if they contained bugs, even minor ones. So it is important to retain “free from minor defects” as an aspect of satisfactory quality in “appropriate cases”, as the Bill provides.
Although I understand the driver behind the amendment, I believe that the Bill is already flexible enough to take these concerns into account. To pick up a point made by my noble friend Lord Clement-Jones, about evidence that reasonable consumers expect bugs in software, the presence of bugs is widely understood in the marketplace. In its evidence to the BIS Select Committee during pre-legislative scrutiny, Which? stated:
“Consumers are very accepting of updates and patches within the software development world and when purchasing apps”.
That will, necessarily, form part of the assessment of satisfactory quality. However, consumers do expect software to work as they are told and as described when sold and that in any given situation, you would be able to tell the difference between a faulty piece of software and one that is just evolving.
The Bill is based on, and takes into account, the expectations of a reasonable person. Amendments that address specific types of software would reduce this flexibility, and may limit the relevance of the provisions in future as the industry evolves. I am also concerned that a blanket requirement to take account of the common presence of defects could have negative implications for consumers. It would make it harder for a consumer ever to show that software was not of satisfactory quality when it contained a defect, even one that was not minor.
Amendment 36 seeks to bring the issue of defects into the concept of “fit for a particular purpose”. As such, it conflates two different concepts: satisfactory quality and fit for a particular purpose. Digital content is fit for a particular purpose or it is not. That is separate from questions about whether it is of satisfactory quality. Clause 35 relates to instances when a consumer might let a trader know that they intend to use the digital content for a specific purpose that is not the normal use of that digital content. So if a consumer tells a sales assistant that she wants to use a computer game described as helping children learn to read in order to teach her child some basic letter sounds, and the trader sells her the game for that purpose, the game must be fit for that particular purpose—it must be able to teach basic letter sounds. The consumer is relying on the skill and judgment of the trader that the game has this feature.
If the digital content is not fit for that particular purpose, Clause 35 is breached, unless the trader can show that the consumer did not rely, or it was unreasonable for them to have relied, on the skill or judgment of the trader. A defect might render some digital content unfit for a particular purpose if a necessary feature did not work well enough or, indeed, it did not work at all. In such cases, I would be concerned that a requirement to take account of the common presence of defects could create a lack of clarity for consumers and lower consumer protection. The amendment could water down the concept of “reasonably fit” in subsection (3) for products that could be argued to be of a type that commonly includes defects. This could have the effect of reducing the impact of Clause 35 and therefore consumer protection.
Education Bill
Debate between Lord Knight of Weymouth and Baroness Jolly(12 years, 9 months ago)
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Baroness Jolly
My Lords, I am happy to support noble Lords’ Amendment 64 and the thrust of Amendment 64A in the names of the noble Baronesses, Lady Hughes and Lady Jones. At Second Reading, I went on record to defend the GTC for England. On these Benches, we support the removal of quangos that are unnecessary or whose functions are retained elsewhere. However, that clearly will not happen in this case. We will be left with little more than a list of teachers who are no longer fit to practise. There will be no remnant of a professional registration body.
It is said that a society is measured by how it cares for the vulnerable—the elderly, the disabled, those who are ill and children. A teacher has the future of a child in his or her hands. Nurses, doctors, lawyers and social workers have registration bodies that act independently of the Government. Only last week, I heard of plans by the Nursing and Midwifery Council to include the registration of healthcare workers. What is therefore special about teachers in England that this is denied to them? The elegant Amendment 64 calls for the members of the profession to reject the Government’s proposals, should a majority of them so wish, thus maintaining the status quo. Amendment 64A outlines a professional registration body as it should be through proposed new paragraphs (a) to (e), and it is a proposal of which teachers could be proud.
Consequently, on these Benches we support the intention of Amendments 64 and 64A. The noble Lord, Lord Lingfield, made the point that the GTCE had not worked so far. That is absolutely no reason to dismantle completely something that should exist. It is incumbent on us to leave it there and try again.
Lord Knight of Weymouth
My Lords, I shall be relatively brief; I suspect we shall want to adjourn fairly soon. I was pleased to put my name to the amendment in the name of my noble friend Lord Puttnam, not just because there is a reasonable presumption that you should always agree with one of the people who proposed you at your introduction but because he is, as ever, right. As we have heard, the amendment suggests that teachers themselves should vote on whether the GTCE should continue. I looked up what the Secretary of State, Michael Gove, said on 2 June last year, when he announced the scrapping of the GTCE. Incidentally, I understand that the people working there, including the chief executive, were at the time as surprised about it as everybody else. Michael Gove said that the Government trust the professionals. This amendment trusts teachers to decide whether they want their professional body to continue.
The other half of the amendment uses the proper threshold. This should appeal to the Government, given that on 26 June, on the “Andrew Marr Show”, the Secretary of State Mr Gove confirmed that Ministers are looking at minimum thresholds in the context of strike ballots. In respect of such a ballot, which I am assuming that the Minister will say he supports, because it is so much in the spirit of where this Government are going, I would argue for the retention of the GTC, but with reform as necessary. Why the GTC? Because, in the end, professionalism is important. Again, I looked up the words of the Secretary of State in November last year in his forward to the White Paper. He said:
“At the heart of our plan is a vision of the teacher as our society’s most valuable asset”.
He went on to say:
“There is no calling more noble, no profession more vital and no service more important than teaching”.
Who could disagree with his words?
The Secretary of State’s actions cause me a little more concern. Given his commitment, if he so believes in them and their professionalism, it is a surprise that teachers have voted overwhelmingly that they have no confidence in this Secretary of State. Perhaps that is because of the reality of his attacks on that professionalism. Look at what he is doing to the pension scheme. When the noble Lord, Lord Adonis, was in his place, he renegotiated the teachers’ pension scheme and made it effective and funded. They see that attack. They see anyone being allowed to teach in free schools, and they see a mum’s army being asked to come in and teach during the strike. If he was Health Secretary, would he have had said the same about nurses, and that mums should go and replace nurses in hospital if there was a nurses’ strike? If he was the Secretary of State for Communities and Local Government, would he ask them to do the same if there was a firefighters’ strike? I suspect not. I suspect that he would respect their professionalism more than he respects teachers.
Then he wants them arbitrarily to close their professional body. As others have said, would he have closed the General Medical Council if he was Health Secretary? No he would not. He would respect their professionalism and their professional body. The other shocking consequence of the abolition of the General Teaching Council is that the teaching agency will take on only the disciplinary functions of the GTC, as we heard in a speech of my noble friend Lady Jones. Can he confirm this? Does this seriously mean that there will no longer be a register of teachers? If so, this is an extraordinarily reckless move by the Government. I assume that the logic is that it is now up to schools to decide whether anyone can teach and what they are paid, and it is all part of this wonderful freedom that we are now going to give head teachers. Hence the assumption is that everyone is eligible to teach unless they fail a CRB check. I find it incomprehensible as to how that will work—and not just in relation to the relationship with Northern Ireland, Wales and Scotland and making sure that people can move freely, as was pointed out by the noble Baroness, Lady Jones. I just do not understand how the teaching agency will exercise its disciplinary functions without a register or how this move will improve teaching standards. I see it only lowering teaching standards. There are opportunities to use a register to raise standards. You could introduce a right to continuous professional development to teachers and, in return, they would have to re-register, so that we could ensure that they continued to receive training and raise their professional standards.
Finally, I repeat the point that this is part of the power grab by the Secretary of State. He will be directly responsible for recruiting, training and disciplining teachers as a result of this Bill. That is a massive change. It makes him very vulnerable to problems, when problems occur, as they inevitably will. But that is his problem.
These are just some of the arguments and reasons why I would reform the GTC to distil its statutory functions down to those coincidentally in Amendment 64A, proposed by the noble Baroness, Lady Jones. We could also think about the composition of the council and how it can be reformed better to represent the customer rather than the producer of education. With reform, I think the GTC can be an effective organisation, but I am happy to be hands-off about this and to leave it to teachers—hence my support for the amendment. If teachers do not want their professional body, they should be trusted to get rid of it.