Littering from Vehicles Bill [HL]

Lord Knight of Weymouth Excerpts

Friday 19th July 2013 Lords Chamber

[Lord Knight of Weymouth]

My Lords, I have no wish to disrupt the consensus that congratulates the noble Lord, Lord Marlesford, on a good Bill and on seeking to address a serious problem which, clearly, your Lordships care greatly about, judging by this debate and the passion with which some addressed it. We are also grateful to the noble Lord for garnering support for his Bill from a number of organisations and for reflecting that support. I am also grateful for the briefings we have had, and have heard in part quoted, from CPRE and Living Streets. He is right about the need for a culture change, which was reflected by my noble friend Lord Judd and others.

There is a danger in over-romanticising the past. We heard a flavour of that in some of the contributions today. It is probably true that we have cleaner air and bathing water. We are even seeing some culture change around people’s attitude to dog fouling, although not among everyone. It is still a problem but less of a problem than it was when I was growing up. However, I find it very odd when I see people hanging from trees bags containing dog mess that they have picked up. I do not understand what that is about. I am happy to say that none of them appears to be nappy bags, so I do not think that they were anything to do with the noble Lord, Lord Selsdon, and his nappy bags. It is a strange habit that leaves me completely perplexed as I walk around the countryside occasionally walking my dog.

It is true that the problem of littering from vehicles is getting worse. I noted the comments made by the noble Earl, Lord Shrewsbury. The drive-through restaurant is a problem that has increased littering from vehicles. Perhaps the corporate social responsibility of McDonald’s, Kentucky Fried Chicken and others that he mentioned can be pricked to help councils deal with that. In some areas, those organisations try to do a little to deal with it. Certainly, where I live in Dorset, we see the same sort of rubbish that the noble Earl sees where he lives and much of it appears to be generated by the drive-through restaurants.

I wholeheartedly support this Bill and want to see it progressed. I have four points to make. The first, to repeat what the noble Lord, Lord Marlesford, said, is to hear about the effect in London. We will be interested to hear what the Minister has to say on that. In Committee, we should explore whether this proposal will apply just to the road and verges off the road, as implied in Clause 6. Clause 1 refers to Section 87 of the Environmental Protection Act 1990, which refers to any place “open to the air” in the area of the authority. We need to clarify the definitions.

I am also interested in how we can enforce this Bill. We can learn from the noble Lord, Lord Selsdon, and his experience travelling around the continent. Will we end up being able to use technology? I am not one to romanticise the past. Sometimes I romanticise the future and perhaps there are aspects of technology that we can use in terms of our smartphones that know where we are to take pictures of people if we can catch them in the act. But catching people in the act, as we know when trying to discourage dog fouling, is quite tricky. Indeed, the act of dog fouling tends to take a little longer than throwing something from a moving vehicle. I especially am interested in whether local authorities with CCTV would be able to use that technology in enforcing these measures and whether the latest code of practice generated by the Protection of Freedoms Act would allow that to happen, particularly given that this is the enforcement of a civil offence. That is something else we might want to explore in Committee.

Finally, I am interested in what would happen to the proceeds of these fines. According to the Bill, the levels would be set in regulations, which of course is right. Would a council be able to generate a surplus? Should it be effective in enforcement? Would it cover just the cost of the administration of prosecuting people for these civil offences? Could it also cover the cost of litter clearance? Those are interesting issues. There are some people who wanted this Bill to be more aggressive. They may want more aggressive fines and would be very comfortable with councils generating a surplus.

I do not wish to detain the House. The noble Lord, Lord Marlesford, and, certainly, the noble Lord, Lord Lawson, were very keen that we should see an end to any procrastination from the Government on this issue. I look forward to hearing from the Minister whether he will accept the invitation made by the noble Lord, Lord Lawson, to bring forward a government Bill to bring into effect the intentions of the noble Lord, Lord Marlesford, whom we support wholeheartedly.