Building Safety Defects: Costs

Lord Kennedy of Southwark Excerpts

Monday 18th October 2021 Lords Chamber

Asked by

[Lord Kennedy of Southwark]

To ask Her Majesty’s Government what plans they have to ensure that victims of building safety defects are not liable for the costs of rectifying those failures.

[Lord Kennedy of Southwark (Lab Co-op)]

My Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question standing in my name on the Order Paper and refer the House to my interests as set out in the register.

[The Minister of State, Home Office and Department for Levelling Up, Housing & Communities (Lord Greenhalgh) (Con)]

My Lords, the Government are investing £5.1 billion to remediate unsafe cladding in residential buildings over 18 metres. The Building Safety Bill will require building owners to consider other cost-recovery routes for remediation before passing them on to leaseholders. A new developer tax and levy will make sure that industry contributes. Finally, for the small number of 11-to-18 metre buildings with cladding remediation costs, our support offer will ensure that leaseholders are protected.

[Lord Kennedy of Southwark (Lab Co-op)]

My Lords, that is a very disappointing and, frankly, repetitive response. There has been a clear failure on the part of the Government to protect the innocent victims of this scandal in building safety. The leaseholders need to be supported by their Government and they need to hear clearly from the Government that they are no longer expected to pay for other people’s mistakes. Why cannot the Government just say that and make it happen?

Leasehold: Building and Fire Safety

Lord Kennedy of Southwark Excerpts

Thursday 16th September 2021 Lords Chamber

Asked by

[Lord Kennedy of Southwark]

To ask Her Majesty’s Government what plans they have to ensure leaseholders do not bear the costs of repairing building and fire safety defects for which they are not responsible.

[Lord Kennedy of Southwark (Lab Co-op)]

My Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question standing in my name on the Order Paper. In doing so, I refer the House to my interests as set out in the register and say that I am from the wonderful borough of Southwark.

[The Minister of State, Home Office and Ministry of Housing, Communities and Local Government (Lord Greenhalgh) (Con)]

I declare my interest in the London Borough of Hammersmith and Fulham. The Government have invested more than £5 billion to remediate unsafe cladding in buildings over 18 metres. For the small number of 11 to 18-metre buildings with cladding remediation costs, our finance scheme will ensure that leaseholders pay no more than £50 per month towards this. A new levy and tax will ensure that industry contributes, and under the Building Safety Bill building owners must explore all reasonable ways to meet remediation costs before passing these on.

[Lord Kennedy of Southwark (Lab Co-op)]

My Lords, the action taken by the Government to date is just not good enough. Leaseholders feel abandoned by the Government. All the talk of levelling up and supporting communities means nothing. It is deeds not words that the victims need today. What will the noble Lord do today after this exchange to persuade his new Secretary of State that further action is needed? Will he come down with me to Parliament Square at 1 pm today to meet some of the victims and listen to their heartbreaking stories?

[Lord Greenhalgh (Con)]

My Lords, I am very happy to join the noble Lord in visiting the people who will be demonstrating today at 1 pm. This is continually a moving feast. I am happy to announce that we are increasing the amount of money we are putting in the waking watch relief fund, which has been a crippling cost for many leaseholders, by a further £5 million to the initial £30 million. That has helped around 20,000 leasehold dwellings and 264 buildings to date. We continue to ensure that we find ways to make sure that the original developer pays wherever possible.

Leasehold Reform (Ground Rent) Bill [HL]

Lord Kennedy of Southwark Excerpts

3rd reading
Tuesday 14th September 2021 Lords Chamber

[Lord Greenhalgh (Con)]

My Lords, I start by thanking noble Lords from all sides of the House for the constructive approach that they have taken to this important legislation. The Bill leaves your Lordships’ House as better legislation than when it arrived, and I thank noble Lords for their engagement with me both here and elsewhere. Leasehold legislation can be incredibly complex, but we are lucky in this place to have the benefit of a vast amount of knowledge and experience on these matters. I express my gratitude in particular to my noble friends Lord Hammond of Runnymede and Lord Young of Cookham, and to my noble and learned friend Lord Mackay of Clashfern, for the time they have given to me and my officials in sharing their knowledge and expertise, which has led directly to amendments that have improved the Bill.

I am pleased to say that there has been recognition across the House of the importance of getting this Bill on the statute book. I thank the noble Lord, Lord Lennie, and, before him, the noble Lord, Lord Kennedy of Southwark, on the Benches opposite, for the constructive nature of the conversations that we have had on this legislation. I also pay tribute to the noble Baroness, Lady Grender, for her work on the Bill, particularly on the vital issue of transparency.

There were, of course, other issues raised with the Bill. I thank the noble Lords, Lord Best and Lord Stunell, the noble Baroness, Lady Greengross, and my noble and learned friend Lord Mackay of Clashfern, for their engagement on the issues of the retirement sector and the transition period that the Government have proposed. Noble Lords who have been carefully watching the Bill’s progress will know that there have been competing views on the length and, indeed, existence of this transition period, including how it should apply to developments that are part-sold. While I remain convinced that our proposal strikes the right balance between the sector and consumers, I have appreciated debating the issue with noble Lords.

I thank the noble and learned Lord, Lord Etherton, and the noble Earl, Lord Lytton, for their scrutiny of the Bill; both have made valuable contributions to the debate. My thanks also go to the officials who have worked so hard to get us to this position: the Bill team of Jo Cagney, Rosie Gray, Tom Sedgwick, Sema Ashami, Isabel Hendy, Jenny Frew, Ian Martin, Harriet Fisher, Elly-Marie Connolly and David Gethin, my own private office, Sam Loxton, the Whips, Senedd officials, the Office of the Parliamentary Counsel and clerks in this place.

Finally, I will take the opportunity to thank the Competition and Markets Authority for its work on behalf of existing leaseholders who have found themselves at the sharp end of unfair practices in the leasehold sector. The CMA’s ongoing investigation is playing a vital role in reforming and improving the sector, and I am sure that the whole House will want to join me in paying tribute to its efforts. The Bill will provide transparency and fairness to a new generation of leaseholders. It is a vital first step towards realising our vision of a reformed and improved leasehold system free from the unfair practices that have been the experience for far too many homeowners. I beg to move.

[Lord Kennedy of Southwark (Lab Co-op)]

My Lords, I join the Minister in thanking Members on all sides of the House for their contributions and expertise in working to get the Bill to where it is today. I also thank the Minister, the noble Lord, Lord Greenhalgh, for his courtesy in his dealings with my noble friend Lord Lennie and myself. We appreciate that very much. I also thank all the officials and his Bill team for their work with us. I place on record my thanks to Ben Wood and the office of the Leader of the Opposition for the work that they did.

My involvement was in the Second Reading of the Bill. I then became the Chief Whip, so I departed the scene, leaving it all to my noble friend Lord Lennie. I have come back to make these final remarks as my noble friend cannot be here today. I thank him in particular for all the work he did in taking up the Bill very much at short notice. I think we have made the Bill better than it was when it first came to this House. This is the first stage in leasehold reform; there is very much more to be done. We look forward to the work of the Law Commission and to a Bill that will address other leaseholder problems—but this is a good first stage and I am very happy with where we have got to so far.

[Lord Stunell (LD)]

My Lords, I too offer my thanks to those who have contributed to the improvement of the Bill and, in particular, to say that the Minister has been exceptionally helpful and generous with his time in proceeding with it through Committee and at the intermediate stages. My noble friend Lady Grender would have liked to be here, but I am speaking in her place on this occasion.

I have given notice to the Minister that I believe there is one aspect of this that still requires a word of clarification, which I hope he will be able to give as we move on. It is clearly very important that this Bill makes rapid progress, and even more important that the second Bill, long promised, follows close on its heels. The issue relates to retirement homes and those blocks that are partially occupied at the time that the changes instigated by this Bill come into force. There is a serious risk of a two-tier market in those blocks if this is introduced wholesale across every part of the same block. I hope that the Minister will be able to clarify the Government’s intent and the effect of this legislation, so that those who have made representations to me can have some understanding of the direction in which this legislation will now proceed. With those few words, I am very happy to see the Bill pass into law.

Grenfell Tower: Demolition

Lord Kennedy of Southwark Excerpts

Monday 6th September 2021 Lords Chamber

Asked by

[Lord Kennedy of Southwark]

To ask Her Majesty’s Government what plans they have to demolish Grenfell Tower and what discussions they have had regarding the safety of the site and whether they have consulted with the survivors, families of the victims and the local community regarding the future use of the site.

[Lord Kennedy of Southwark (Lab Co-op)]

My Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question of which I have given private notice. In doing so, I refer the House to my relevant interests as set out in the register.

[The Minister of State, Home Office and Ministry of Housing, Communities and Local Government (Lord Greenhalgh) (Con)]

The Government recognise how important and sensitive this decision is, particularly for bereaved families, survivors and local residents. Following important independent safety advice, the Government are engaging closely with the community as we consider what the future of Grenfell Tower should be. No decision has been made.

[Lord Kennedy of Southwark (Lab Co-op)]

My Lords, over the weekend, survivors, victims’ families and the local community found out about the plans to demolish Grenfell Tower through reports across the media. The decision to speak to the media before any consultation with those affected was completely wrong. Can the Minister confirm what discussions have taken place with structural engineers and other professionals regarding the demolition of the tower and the future of the site? Can he also confirm that full discussion and consultation on the demolition of the tower and the future of the site will take place urgently with survivors, victims’ families, Grenfell United and the local community, and that he will ensure that there are no more of these lapses and no more of this frankly disrespectful treatment of those people by the Government? Also, will he take the opportunity now to apologise for the briefing over the weekend and the reports in the media?

[Lord Greenhalgh (Con)]

My Lords, I want to be absolutely clear that this was not a briefing by the Government; it had nothing to do with the Government. On Friday, I had a meeting where it was made very clear that no decision had been taken—so I was as surprised as the noble Lord by what we read in the Sunday papers and subsequently. The Government have embarked on a phase of concentrated engagement on the future of the tower; this started around a year ago and has intensified since May, when we published a series of engineering reports that included a peer review of the major review that was carried out by Atkins. I can certainly continue to make the point that the Government will proceed by very carefully engaging with and consulting the community on this very sensitive matter.

Mortgages: EWS1 Form

Lord Kennedy of Southwark Excerpts

Tuesday 29th June 2021 Lords Chamber

Asked by

[Lord Kennedy of Southwark]

To ask Her Majesty’s Government what steps they intend to take to help leaseholders who are unable to sell their flats due to mortgage providers insisting on an EWS1 form despite the guidance from the Royal Institution of Chartered Surveyors.

[Lord Kennedy of Southwark (Lab Co-op)]

My Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question standing in my name on the Order Paper. In doing so, I refer the House to my relevant interests as set out in the register.

[The Minister of State, Home Office and Ministry of Housing, Communities and Local Government (Lord Greenhalgh) (Con)]

We will continue to challenge industry on inappropriate use of EWS1 forms. We have asked lenders to publish data, so that home owners can see how the guidance is being applied, as well as the impact of the process on mortgage applications. Data from one major lender suggests that an EWS1 form already exists for 50% of mortgage applications where one is requested. We are working with industry to ensure this picture improves.

[Lord Kennedy of Southwark (Lab Co-op)]

My Lords, the problem is that mortgage providers are insisting on a form that is not necessary, against the guidance from the Royal Institution of Chartered Surveyors. People cannot sell their homes because of the actions of overzealous financial institutions, and buyers cannot get mortgages. Can the Minister say more? Has he spoken to UK Finance to sort this issue out? Sadly, for me, this is another example of woeful failure by the Government—all promise and no delivery. Again and again, home buyers have been let down. Issues of fire safety, building safety, poor construction and financial failure are not going away. The Minister will be brought back here, again and again, until the Government finally take some action.

[Lord Greenhalgh (Con)]

My Lords, we have had repeated engagement with both UK Finance and also the Building Societies Association on this matter. We are seeing a picture that is troublesome but is continuing to improve, bit by bit. We have taken a number of measures to ensure that we encourage lenders to take a more proportionate approach.

Homeowners: Cladding-related Costs

Lord Kennedy of Southwark Excerpts

Thursday 24th June 2021 Lords Chamber

Asked by

[Lord Kennedy of Southwark]

To ask Her Majesty’s Government what plans they have to protect homeowners from further costs as a result of unsafe cladding, in addition to the £5.1 billion investment in building safety

[Lord Kennedy of Southwark (Lab Co-op) [V]]

My Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question standing in my name on the Order Paper, and in doing so refer the House to my relevant interests as set out in the register.

[The Minister of State, Home Office and Ministry of Housing, Communities and Local Government (Lord Greenhalgh) (Con)]

The Government will fund the cost of replacing unsafe cladding for leaseholders in residential buildings of 18 metres and over in England. This will make homes safe and protect leaseholders from costs. There is no reason to suggest that there will be a funding shortfall for eligible applications to our remediation funds.

[Lord Kennedy of Southwark (Lab Co-op) [V]]

My Lords, the response from the Government is woefully inadequate. When will the noble Lord, the Government and the Prime Minister get a grip? The thousands of people trapped in this living nightmare need their Government to help and support them. When are we going to see action on the failures of the companies who built these buildings; the professional failures; the insurance companies not delivering on their obligations; the increased insurance premium costs levied on people; the building safety fund contract terms, which are not fit for purpose; the unrealistic bills being sent to innocent victims; the dangerous fire safety and building safety defects which have not been addressed; and the EWS1 form fiasco, which is making buildings unsaleable? What will it take to get the Government to make those responsible pay up, so that innocent victims get the justice they deserve?

[Lord Greenhalgh (Con)]

My Lords, I think that extended beyond two points. In addition to the unprecedented sum of £5.1 billion towards the remediation costs, we recognise the need to strengthen redress mechanisms. That will come forward as part of the building safety Bill. We have also stepped forward to support the installation of many hundreds of alarms to ensure that people do not have to pay for a costly waking watch, with our waking watch relief scheme of some £30 million. We recognise that it is for the building owners to shoulder their statutory responsibilities to keep their buildings safe. We will continue to work with all levels of government to make sure that that happens and that the costs are not passed on to the leaseholders.

Town and Country Planning (General Permitted Development etc.) (England) (Amendment) Order 2021

Lord Kennedy of Southwark Excerpts

Tuesday 8th June 2021 Lords Chamber

[Lord Kennedy of Southwark (Lab Co-op)]

My Lords, I draw the attention of the House to my relevant registered interests as a vice-president of the Local Government Association, a non-executive director of MHS Homes Ltd and chair of the Heart of Medway Housing Association. I should make clear that at the appropriate time I intend to divide the House on my regret Motion.

It is extremely disappointing that this order is before us. I concur with many of the remarks of the noble Baroness, Lady Pinnock. However, sadly, it is how the Government operate, with scant regard for communities, the need to make their areas sustainable or, frankly, any understanding of what a stable community actually is. The order is another example of the Government’s inept planning policy. I have stood here so many times in recent years discussing orders, planning Bills and so on. They are just non-stop and I am sure we will be back again. The Government are completely inept in what they are doing.

Imagine if the roles were reversed. The noble Lord, Lord Greenhalgh, would be standing up and demanding, “You must let local communities have their say. How dare you do this?” I am sure that he would make the arguments that I am now giving. The Government have no interest in what local communities want to do. The noble Lord should know because he has been the leader of a council, whereas I have been only a member of a council. He knows how much councillors are the voices of their local communities and how much the local community wants to engage with its council. What we have here pushes all that to one side. It will hold back our high streets and open the floodgates for poor-quality housing in towns, cities and villages across England with no regard for what communities actually want.

What happened to localism? That word has disappeared from the Government Benches recently. There is nothing about that any more. Now Whitehall will decide and you will do as you are told. Localism was another fad from the Government—another slogan that has now gone out of fashion.

The country is in desperate need of affordable housing. We talk about it all the time. This order does nothing to achieve that. Instead, what we have here is a developers’ charter that removes powers from locally elected representatives and hands them to Whitehall-appointed boards. As the noble Baroness, Lady Pinnock, said, there is virtually no scrutiny whatever, just a negative Motion before the House. There is no legislation here. The Government are not prepared to put it in front of the House of Commons. It is only because we have tabled the regret Motion and the fatal Motion that we are actually debating these issues. The Government are running scared from debating them.

There are three main reasons why I have tabled this regret Motion and I will set them out. I believe that this order will hold back communities. First, it takes away from local people and locally elected people the ability to make their points known. Local councillors know their area best. They are the right people to decide. Instead, we are transferring powers to Whitehall-appointed boards. It shows contempt for local representatives. More than that, is the Minister actually saying that the boards and the Government know better than local councillors and local people? Surely, he is not saying that at all. Local communities know their interests and their needs and know what needs to happen in their area.

The second concern from these Benches is the risk of swathes of poor-quality housing appearing as a result of this order. We have enough poor-quality housing in this country. We have a housing crisis, as the Minister knows. We talk about it all the time in this House. This will do nothing at all to help that. We need good-quality homes and this, sadly, will do nothing to deliver on that.

The third point is about how it seems acceptable to let it go through with little scrutiny in Parliament. The risk is that we will see retail units being converted to low-quality flats. There is no guarantee that they will be what the local community actually wants. It could also decimate town centres. We all know that our high streets are in crisis. I would like the Minister to set out for us how this order will help and save our high streets. It does nothing for them at all. It adds to the risk that our high streets will become ghost towns. In these tough times for local businesses, the Government should be standing with businesses and communities and ensuring that our high streets and town centres are developed and supported, but, sadly, they are not.

To be clear, I intend to divide the House on my regret Motion when the time comes but neither I nor my Benches will be supporting the fatal Motion in the name of the noble Baroness, Lady Pinnock. I like the noble Baroness very much and I respect her views but I am also conscious of the constitutional position of this House. The House has the power to put forward fatal Motions but should use that power very sparingly. I want to express my regret, annoyance and anger at what the Government are doing here. They need to behave better on these things and should have put them in front of the House of Commons in proper legislation to have them debated.

I suspect the Government are not doing that because they know the problems they will have from their own Back Benches in the other place, in particular, if they put these proposals forward. That is why they are using this negative measure. It is regrettable that it takes away the voice of local communities and will hold back the high street. It also does nothing to improve the housing situation. I suspect that this is the way that the Government will continue on a number of issues. I will leave it there. As I said, I will put my regret Motion to the vote but will not support the fatal Motion.

[The Deputy Speaker (Lord Alderdice) (LD)]

The noble Lord, Lord Lilley, has withdrawn from the debate so I call the noble Lord, Lord Berkeley.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Ashton of Hyde (Con)]

My Lords, with the agreement of the usual channels, we are going to defer both votes until tomorrow, so they will be on tomorrow’s Order Paper. After this, to give everyone time to move over to the next business, we will have a short adjournment.

[Lord Kennedy of Southwark (Lab Co-op)]

I thank the Government Chief Whip. I would have been very happy for my vote to be agreed by the collecting of voices, but the Government did not take me up on that offer. Obviously, I fully understand about these technical issues and we are happy for the votes to take place tomorrow.

Rogue Landlords Register

Lord Kennedy of Southwark Excerpts

Wednesday 26th May 2021 Lords Chamber

[Lord Greenhalgh (Con)]

We have taken a balanced approach whereby we have tried to ensure that we do not see the mass evictions the noble Lord refers to. Equally, it is important that we crack down on rogue landlords. We have invested close to £7 million to improve the enforcement powers of local authorities, because those who do overstep the mark need to feel the full force of the law, whether that is the criminal law or housing legislation.

[Lord Kennedy of Southwark (Lab Co-op)]

My Lords, I refer the House to my relevant interests as set out in the register. Does the noble Lord think that the whole concept of the rogue landlords database has so far been a failure? Notwithstanding his answer to that, what is he planning to do to make the intent behind the concept a reality? Can we have a bit more detail on the White Paper and future measures?

[Lord Greenhalgh (Con)]

I do not accept that it has been a failure, partly because of the time taken going through the process of charging and convicting individuals. As I pointed out in the previous answer, it is one of a number of measures that we introduced to tackle the issue of rogue landlords. Obviously, we are consulting on a number of wider measures, including increasing the scope and accessibility of this database as part of that White Paper. More will be announced later in the year.

Social Housing

Lord Kennedy of Southwark Excerpts

Monday 24th May 2021 Lords Chamber

[Lord Greenhalgh (Con)]

My Lords, I do not accept that characterisation of our planning reforms. They look to simplify the developer contribution through a new infrastructure levy that I am sure will capture the land value uplift so that that can be put into social and affordable housing.

[Lord Kennedy of Southwark (Lab Co-op)]

My Lords, I refer the House to my relevant interests as set out in the register. Can the Minister explain why, when asked about social housing, he often refers to affordable housing? They are not the same thing. We need a greater percentage of government spend on social rented homes to address the chronic shortage of homes for people on low incomes. Many of the affordable homes he talks about are just not affordable for these people.

[Lord Greenhalgh (Con)]

My Lords, I was very clear in my original reply that this programme will deliver approximately double the number of social rented homes, but there are also ways to provide subsidised housing that gives a discount on the market price, which is the definition of affordable rent.

Leasehold Reform (Ground Rent) Bill [HL]

Lord Kennedy of Southwark Excerpts

Monday 24th May 2021 Lords Chamber

[Lord Kennedy of Southwark (Lab Co-op)]

My Lords, I refer the House to my relevant interests as set out in the register, namely as a vice-president of the Local Government Association, a non-executive director of MHS Homes Ltd and chair of the Heart of Medway Housing Association.

The Minister will have heard the speeches of all noble Lords who have taken part in the debate today. I think it is fair to say that everybody welcomes the Bill as far as it goes. I entirely accept that progress is being made and it is welcome, but—there is always a “but”—the issue that noble Lords have mentioned is the pace of reform, which is slow. In fact, it is really, really slow, and it is regrettable. This Bill could do so much more than it is doing.

My noble friend Lord Berkeley asked whether this Bill is doing the easy bits. Sadly, it is doing exactly that. The Government have form here. On a lot of legislation, they like doing the easy bits and making announcements about what will come down the track, but in many cases we are still waiting for what is coming down the track. I am reminded of the Housing and Planning Act 2016—a dreadful piece of legislation. Thankfully, Theresa May got rid of most of it, but regarding the rogue landlord database, which the noble Baroness, Lady Grender, just mentioned, the Act was passed in 2016 and five years later we are still waiting for the legislation to make that publicly available. I hope that we get some progress and are not just kicking the can down the road.

Perhaps the Minister can give us some more detail about when we can expect the more substantial legislation dealing with the real issues, such as the 4.5 million people today who are struggling with unsatisfactory leases. Leaseholder problems are nothing new and neither is the call for the reform. However, the problems have got worse. The Bill’s major failure is that, if you have problems with your leasehold property today, there is nothing here to help you.

The noble Lord, Lord Hammond of Runnymede, made a very fair point about conveyancers and the advice that they gave to leaseholders. I hope that the Minister responds to the noble Lord’s points.

The noble Earl, Lord Lytton, raised the issue of the consultation flaws. I have raised issues about inadequate consultation many times. Again, I hope that the Minister responds to those questions.

The noble Lord, Lord Blencathra, in a most enjoyable speech, set out why the Government must act urgently. We got it all: the Romans, the Normans, the Doomsday Book, the Peasants’ Revolt, Wat Tyler—the only one missed out was Lord Mayor Walworth. However, although it was enjoyable, the noble Lord’s serious point was that reform is desperately needed and long overdue. This goes back so many years. I hope that the Minister takes that on board. We must ensure that this leasehold type of property ownership has had its day and that the Government are marking that, and that this is the start of the process to end that. If that is what we will hear from the Minister, I will be very pleased, because if you are a leaseholder, you can be trapped in very unfair terms and must go on waiting for that leasehold reform, which is unacceptable.

Many noble Lords have described the Bill as “timid”. The Bill is good as far as it goes, but it could do so much more. Why is it so timid and what is the time scale for a more substantial piece of legislation? When will we see it in this House? It would be good for all of us to know, because this Bill is a missed opportunity, and in that sense it is a failure. The noble Baroness, Lady Ritchie of Downpatrick, made these points.

My noble friend Lady Andrews pointed out the huge problems that people face when they buy a leasehold property and then see their ground rent double, as well as other onerous charges. We have heard several times of people being “ripped off”, which is totally unacceptable.

I will be pursuing several issues in Committee and on Report. I hope to persuade the Minister and the Government of the merits of my case, and I am sure that the Minister will want to do the same, but if not, I am happy to divide the House on Report regarding certain issues. Here are some of the issues that I will be interested in looking at. We will be exploring whether we can remove the ground rent from existing leaseholders and put into the Bill a requirement for the Government to begin that work and get a timetable for it to go forward.

There is also the issue of unfair terms and conditions beyond ground rents, which is not addressed anywhere in the Bill. I am talking about unfair terms and conditions such as transfer fees imposed by freeholders on the sale of a leasehold property, which are totally unfair and unjustified.

Another issue is leasehold forfeiture, which has been talked about already today. That is a process whereby somebody can lose their property for a small debt, which is totally unacceptable and needs to be dealt with. The concept is disproportionate in relation to the potential debts involved. The Bill could have been used to stop that practice and put in place a more proportionate system to address issues of debts owed, but it does not do that.

I am also not convinced that the penalties in place to deal with rogue freeholders who seek to illegally charge leaseholders a fee beyond the peppercorn go far enough. Is the maximum fee of £5,000 the right amount? Should there not be an extended sliding scale for repeat offenders?

One of the clauses refers to getting the fee back that has been charged to a leaseholder illegally. If the fee has to be paid back, that is good but I would like to see some interest and compensation for the leaseholder if it was charged to them illegally. I would also want to see larger-scale fees charged to companies that do that, because they probably need to be deterred. If their fee is only ever £5,000, they might well get away with it in some places and think, “Actually, this is worth taking the risk.” We need a much larger fee to deter people from behaving like that.

Another problem the Bill does not address is what people and companies will seek to do to get around this ban on ground rents. By that, I mean a whole new raft of additional fees, special provisions and other charges—generally, rip-off revenue streams which freeholders might seek to place on the leaseholders. These types of fees will be of no benefit to the consumer or leaseholder; it is unfair if they are just cash cows. What will the Minister do to stop this becoming a reality? Let us be clear: some of these organisations have lots of clever people. Their lawyers will sit down and say, “Right—this has been banned, but what can we do to get around it by doing something else?” What are the Government going to do about this? Otherwise, we will be here in a few months’ time saying, “That’s great, but what about these charges?”, and people would be no better off. The noble Lord, Lord Stunell, referred to this in his contribution.

The noble Baroness, Lady Wheatcroft, rightly highlighted the problem of service charges. I have spoken to many leaseholders over the past few months who have been asked to pay a really unfair level of service charge. I often wonder how much these charges reflect actual work done and how much they are a sort of management fee, where they do not get a lot for them. Again, we are not dealing with that and it is disappointing, as the Bill could have dealt with those things as well.

The noble Lord, Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth, highlighted the permission fees. Again, that is another example of leaseholders being ripped off and seen as cash cows.

The noble Lord, Lord Best, spoke about the risk of rogue property agents and others acting in an unscrupulous manner. Often when we legislate in this House, it is not to deal with the good people who play by the rules but to deal with the rogues—the people who just push their luck and pull strokes. How are we going to deal with that, when it is really important? It is not about good businesses but the rogues who will behave badly. The noble Lord, Lord Young of Cookham, mentioned those points in his contribution as well.

This has been an excellent debate with lots that we can generally agree on. There is also a lot to get our teeth into during our Committee and Report stages. I hope the Bill will be given three days, or maybe a bit longer. As we can see from this debate, lots of issues will need addressing. I hope that the Minister will have an open mind—I am sure he will—and want to engage with the House. I think we all want the same thing here; we know there is a problem and are trying to sort it out. It is just that we are a bit more frustrated and maybe want to get it done a bit quicker. We have raised serious points that need to be addressed in the Bill, even given its narrow provisions, so we ensure that when it becomes an Act it is a good one and does what the Government seek to do. With that, I look forward to the Minister’s response and our deliberations in the next stages.