Data (Use and Access) Bill [HL]

Debate between Lord Kamall and Viscount Camrose

Committee stage
Monday 16th December 2024 Grand Committee

[Lord Kamall (Con)]

My Lords, in speaking to this group of amendments I must apologise to the Committee that, when I spoke last week, I forgot to mention my interests in the register, specifically as an unpaid adviser to the Startup Coalition. For Committee, noble Lords will realise that I have confined myself to amendments that may be relevant to our healthcare and improving that.

I will speak to Amendments 111 and 116 in the names of my noble friends Lord Camrose and Lord Markham, and Amendment 115 from my noble friend Lord Lucas and the noble Lords, Lord Clement-Jones and Lord Knight of Weymouth, as well as other amendments, including from my noble friend Lord Holmes—I will probably touch on most amendments in this group. To illustrate my concerns, I return to two personal experiences that I shared during debate on the Data Protection and Digital Information Bill. I apologise to noble Lords who have heard these examples previously, but they illustrate the points being made in discussing this group of amendments.

A few years ago, when I was supposed to be travelling to Strasbourg, my train to the airport got delayed. My staff picked me up, booked me a new flight and drove me to the airport. I got to the airport with my new boarding pass and scanned it to get into the gate area, but as I was about to get on the flight, I scanned my pass again and was not allowed on the flight. No one there could explain why, having been allowed through security, I was not allowed on the flight. To cut a long story short, after two hours of being gaslighted by four or five staff, with them not even saying that they could not explain things to me, I eventually had to return to the check-in desk—this was supposed to be avoided by all the automation—to ask what had happened. The airline claimed that it had sent me an email that day. The next day, it admitted that it had not sent me an email. It then explained what had happened by saying that a flag had gone off in its system. That was simply the explanation.

This illustrates the point about human intervention, but it is also about telling customers and others what happens when something goes wrong. The company clearly had not trained its staff in how to speak to customers or in transparency. Companies such as that airline get away with this sort of disgraceful behaviour all the time, but imagine if such technology were being used in the NHS. Imagine the same scenario: you turn up for an operation, and you scan your barcode to enter the hospital—possibly even the operating theatre—but you are denied access. There must be accountability, transparency and human intervention, and, in these instances, there has to be human intervention immediately. These things are critical.

I know that this Bill makes some sort of differentiation between more critical and less critical ADM, but let me illustrate my point with another example. A few years ago, I paid for an account with one of those whizzy fintech banks. Its slogan was: “We are here to make money work for everyone”. I downloaded the app and filled out the fields, then a message popped up telling me, “We will get back to you within 48 hours”. Two weeks later, I got a message on the app saying that I had been rejected and that, by law, the bank did not have to explain why. Once again, I ask noble Lords to imagine. Imagine Monzo’s technology being used on the NHS app, which many people currently use for repeat prescriptions or booking appointments. What would happen if you tried to book an appointment but you received a message saying, “Your appointment has been denied and, by law, we do not have to explain why”? I hope that we would have enough common sense to ensure that there is human intervention immediately.

I realise that the noble Lord, Lord Clement-Jones, has a Private Member’s Bill on this issue—I am sorry that I have not been able to take part in those debates—but, for this Bill, I hope that the two examples I have just shared illustrate the point that I know many noble Lords are trying to make in our debate on this group of amendments. I look forward to the response from the Minister.

[Viscount Camrose (Con)]

I thank all noble Lords who have spoken. I must confess that, of all the groups we are looking at today, I have been particularly looking forward to this one. I find this area absolutely fascinating.

Let me begin in that spirit by addressing an amendment in my name and that of my noble friend Lord Markham and I ask the Government and all noble Lords to give it considerable attention. Amendment 111 seeks to insert the five principles set out in the AI White Paper published by the previous Government and to require all those participating in ADM—indeed, all forms of AI—to have due regard for them. They are:

“safety, security and robustness, appropriate transparency and explainability, fairness, accountability and governance, and contestability and redress”.

These principles for safe AI are based on those originally developed with the OECD and have been the subject of extensive consultation. They have been refined and very positively received by developers, public sector organisations, private sector organisations and civil society. They offer real safeguards against the risks of AI while continuing to foster innovation.

I will briefly make three brief points to commend their inclusion in the Bill, as I have described. First, the Bill team has argued throughout that these principles are already addressed by the principles of data protection and so are covered in the Bill. There is overlap, of course, but I do not agree that they are equivalent. Data protection is a significant concern in AI but the risks and, indeed, the possibilities of AI go far further than data protection. We simply cannot entrust all our AI risks to data protection principles.

Secondly, I think the Government will point to their coming AI Bill and suggest that we should wait for that before we move significantly on AI. However, in practice all we have to go on about the Bill—I recognise that Ministers cannot describe much of it now—is that it will focus on the largest AI labs and the largest models. I assume it will place existing voluntary agreements on a statutory footing. In other words, we do not know when the Bill is coming, but this approach will allow a great many smaller AI fish to slip through the net. If we want to enshrine principles into law that cover all use of AI here, this may not quite be the only game in town, but it is certainly the only all-encompassing, holistic game in town likely to be positively impactful. I look forward to the Minister’s comments on this point.

Data Protection and Digital Information Bill

Debate between Lord Kamall and Viscount Camrose

Committee stage
Monday 25th March 2024 Grand Committee

[Viscount Camrose (Con)]

I am not aware one way or the other, but I will happily look into that to see what further safeguards we can add so that we are not bombarding people who are too young with this material.

[Lord Kamall (Con)]

May I make a suggestion to my noble friend the Minister? It might be worth asking the legal people to get the right wording, but if there are different ages at which people can vote in different parts of the United Kingdom, surely it would be easier just to relate it to the age at which they are able to vote in those elections. That would address a lot of the concerns that many noble Lords are expressing here today.

--- Later in debate ---

[Viscount Camrose (Con)]

My Lords, I rise to speak to a series of minor and technical, yet necessary, government amendments which, overall, improve the functionality of the Bill. I hope the Committee will be content if I address them together. Amendments 20, 42, 61 and 63 are minor technical amendments to references to special category data in Clauses 6 and 14. All are intended to clarify that references to special category data mean references to the scope of Article 9(1) of the UK GDPR. They are simply designed to improve the clarity of the drafting.

I turn now to the series of amendments that clarify how time periods within the data protection legal framework are calculated. For the record, these are Amendments 136, 139, 141, 149, 151, 152, 176, 198, 206 to 208, 212 to 214, 216, 217, 253 and 285. Noble Lords will be aware that the data protection legislation sets a number of time periods or deadlines for certain things to happen, such as responding to subject access requests; in other words, at what day, minute or hour the clock starts and stops ticking in relation to a particular procedure. The Data Protection Act 2018 expressly applies the EU-derived rules on how these time periods should be calculated, except in a few incidences where it is more appropriate for the UK domestic approach to apply, for example time periods related to parliamentary procedures. I shall refer to these EU-derived rules as the time periods regulation.

In response to the Retained EU Law (Revocation and Reform) Act 2023, we are making it clear that the time periods regulation continues to apply to the UK GDPR and other regulations that form part of the UK’s data protection and privacy framework, for example, the Privacy and Electronic Communications (EC Directive) Regulations 2003. By making such express provision, our aim is to ensure consistency and continuity and to provide certainty for organisations, individuals and the regulator. We have also made some minor changes to existing clauses in the Bill to ensure that application of the time periods regulation achieves the correct effect.

Secondly, Amendment 197 clarifies that the requirement to consult before making regulations that introduce smart data schemes may be satisfied by a consultation before the Bill comes into force. The regulations must also be subject to affirmative parliamentary scrutiny to allow Members of both Houses to scrutinise legislation. This will facilitate the rapid implementation of smart data schemes, so that consumers and businesses can start benefiting as soon as possible. The Government are committed to working closely with business and wider stakeholders in the development of smart data.

Furthermore, Clause 96(3) protects data holders from the levy that may be imposed to meet the expenses of persons and bodies performing functions under smart data regulations. This levy cannot be imposed on data holders that do not appear capable of being directly affected by the exercise of those functions.

Amendment 196 extends that protection to authorised persons and third-party recipients on whom the levy may also be imposed. Customers will not have to pay to access their data, only for the innovative services offered by third parties. We expect that smart data schemes will deliver significant time and cost savings for customers.

The Government are committed to balancing the incentives for businesses to innovate and provide smart data services with ensuring that all customers are empowered through their data use and do not face undue financial barriers or digital exclusion. Any regulations providing for payment of the levy or fees will be subject to consultation and to the affirmative resolution procedure in Parliament.

Amendments 283 and 285 to Schedule 15 confer a general incidental power on the information commission. It will have the implied power to do things incidental to or consequential upon the exercise of its functions, for example, to hold land and enter into agreements. This amendment makes those implicit powers explicit for the avoidance of doubt and in line with standard practice. It does not give the commission substantive new powers. I beg to move.

[Lord Kamall (Con)]

My Lords, I know that these amendments were said to be technical amendments, so I thought I would just accept them, but when I saw the wording of Amendment 283 some alarm bells started ringing. It says:

“The Commission may do anything it thinks appropriate for the purposes of, or in connection with, its functions”.


I know that the Minister said that this is stating what the commission is already able to do, but I am concerned whenever I see those words anywhere. They give a blank cheque to any authority or organisation.

Many noble Lords will know that I have previously spoken about the principal-agent theory in politics, in which certain powers are delegated to an agency or regulator, but what accountability does it have? I worry when I see that it “may do anything … appropriate” to fulfil its tasks. I would like some assurance from the Minister that there is a limit to what the information commission can do and some accountability. At a time when many of us are asking who regulates the regulators and when we are looking at some of the arm’s-length bodies—need I mention the Post Office?—there is some real concern about accountability.

I understand the reason for wanting to clarify or formalise what the Minister believes the information commission is doing already, but I worry about this form of words. I would like some reassurance that it is not wide-ranging and that there is some limit and accountability to future Governments. I have seen this sentiment across the House; people are asking who regulates the regulators and to whom are they accountable.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Bassam of Brighton (Lab)]

My Lords, I have been through this large group and, apart from my natural suspicion that there might be something dastardly hidden away in it, I am broadly content, but I have a few questions.

On Amendment 20, can the Minister conform that the new words “further processing” have the same meaning as the reuse of personal data? Can he confirm that Article 5(1)(b) will prohibit this further processing when it is not in line with the original purpose for which the data was collected? How will the data subject know that is the case?

On Amendment 196, to my untutored eye it looks like the regulation-making power is being extended away from the data holder to include authorised persons and third-party recipients. My questions are simple enough: was this an oversight on the part of the original drafters of that clause? Is the amendment an extension of those captured by the effect of the clause? Is it designed to achieve consistency across the Bill? Finally, can I assume that an authorised person or third party would usually be someone acting on behalf of an agent of the data holder?

I presume that Amendments 198, 212 and 213 are needed because of a glitch in the drafting—similarly with Amendment 206. I can see that Amendments 208, 216 and 217 clarify when time periods begin, but why are the Government seeking to disapply time periods in Amendment 253 when surely some consistency is required?

Finally—I am sure the Minister will be happy about this—I am all in favour of flexibility, but Amendment 283 states that the Information Commissioner has the power to do things to facilitate the exercise of his functions. The noble Lord, Lord Kamall, picked up on this. We need to understand what those limits are. On the face of it, one might say that the amendment is sensible, but it seems rather general and broad in its application. As the noble Lord, Lord Kamall, rightly said, we need to see what the limits of accountability are. This is one of those occasions.

[Viscount Camrose (Con)]

I thank the noble Lords, Lord Kamall and Lord Bassam, for their engagement with this group. On the questions from the noble Lord, Lord Kamall, these are powers that the ICO would already have in common law. As I am given to understand is now best practice, they are put on a statutory footing in the Bill as part of best practice with all Bills. The purpose is to align with best practice. It does not confer substantial new powers but clarifies the powers that the regulator has. I can also confirm that the ICO was and remains accountable to Parliament.

[Lord Kamall (Con)]

I am sorry to intervene as I know that noble Lords want to move on to other groups, but the Minister said that the ICO remains accountable to Parliament. Will he clarify how it is accountable to Parliament for the record?

[Viscount Camrose (Con)]

The Information Commissioner is directly accountable to Parliament in that he makes regular appearances in front of Select Committees that scrutinise the regulator’s work, including progress against objectives.

The noble Lord, Lord Bassam, made multiple important and interesting points. I hope he will forgive me if I undertake to write to him about those; there is quite a range of topics to cover. If there are any on which he requires answers right away, he is welcome to intervene.

Medical Research Techniques

Debate between Lord Kamall and Viscount Camrose

Monday 18th March 2024 Lords Chamber

[Viscount Camrose (Con)]

First, let me pay tribute to the work of the NC3Rs, which is an extremely important body. Nobody feels comfortable doing a lot of animal tests; they simply are necessary for human safety in too many cases. For example, UK REACH follows the last-resort principle where, as far as possible, it is able to waive animal tests for chemicals. That kind of work will further accelerate the work of the NC3Rs.

[Lord Kamall (Con)]

My Lords, the noble Baroness, Lady Bennett, spoke about other countries that were looking at alternatives to animal testing. What conversations has my noble friend’s department had with other countries on how they can encourage more alternatives to animal testing?

[Viscount Camrose (Con)]

DSIT continues to engage on life sciences research with a wide range of other countries, including countries that have tried to accelerate further. Recently, in particular, the Netherlands and the United States have not always been able to succeed in their goals of accelerating the date by which non-animal methods of research become the only way forward. On the other hand, steady progress towards the greater use of non-animal methods through the three Rs seems to be bearing fruit, albeit not as fast as anybody would like.

Combating Disinformation: Freedom of Expression

Debate between Lord Kamall and Viscount Camrose

Tuesday 13th February 2024 Lords Chamber

[Viscount Camrose (Con)]

Well, the Government are clear, as is NSOIT, that disinformation refers to the deliberate attempt to mislead by placing falsehoods into the information environment. As part of the Civil Service, NSOIT would have robust internal measures to verify and check its own work, and indeed it reports regularly across government and to Ministers.

[Lord Kamall (Con)]

My Lords, can my noble friend the Minister explain what guidance is given to the unit to distinguish between disinformation and difference of opinion?

[Viscount Camrose (Con)]

Disinformation is a deliberate falsehood. A difference of opinion is generally something of democratic importance or of journalistic or pluralistic importance, which it is very important to protect and which the Online Safety Act took very considerable measures to safeguard over its passage.

Digital Markets, Competition and Consumers Bill

Debate between Lord Kamall and Viscount Camrose

Committee stage
Wednesday 24th January 2024 Grand Committee

[Viscount Camrose (Con)]

I said that the purpose of Clause 19(5) is to set the parameters for the design of conduct requirements by the CMA. Its purpose is to guide the CMA, not to bind the recipients of conduct requirements.

Amendment 48 from the noble Baroness, Lady Jones of Whitchurch, would allow the final offer mechanism tool to be used earlier in the enforcement process. The final offer mechanism is a backstop tool designed to incentivise sincere negotiations about fair and reasonable payment terms between the SMS firm and third parties. It is crucial that there is room for good faith negotiation where disputes arise from sincere differences of understanding rather than deliberate non-compliance. Overly shortening the enforcement process would greatly reduce these opportunities.

We recognise, however, that some stakeholders may be concerned about SMS firms frustrating the process and refusing to comply with these conduct requirements and any subsequent enforcement. Here, the CMA could seek to accelerate the stages before the final offer mechanism, making use of urgent deadlines for compliance with enforcement orders and significant financial penalties where appropriate, ensuring that parties will also not be able to drag their feet and delay the process. In addition, interim enforcement orders can be issued on a temporary basis during a conduct investigation, before a breach has been found. They could be used to prevent significant damage, such as a company going bust, to prevent conduct that would reduce effectiveness of future remedies or to protect the public interest. Our regime aims to tackle the far-reaching power of the most powerful tech firms.

I know that my noble friend Lord Black noted the Australian legislation. Our regime contrasts the Australian legislation in that it has been designed to protect businesses and consumers across the economy including, but not limited to, news publishers. Alongside the final offer mechanism, the DMU will have other powers to tackle unfair and unreasonable payment terms via conduct requirements, ensuring that the final offer mechanism will rarely, if ever, need to be used.

Amendments 49, 50 and 51 from the noble Lord, Lord Clement-Jones, would allow parties to submit further final offers if the CMA considers that the first were not fair and reasonable. The final offer mechanism involves a binary choice between the two final offers submitted by the parties. It is the finality of the process that creates such a strong incentive for the parties to submit fair and reasonable offers. An unreasonable offer only increases the likelihood of the CMA choosing the other party’s proposal.

Introducing scope for an additional round of bidding would undermine these incentives and would only serve to delay the securing of fair and reasonable terms for the third party. As a result, we hope, for the reasons set out, that the noble Lord feels able not to press these amendments.

Finally, this group includes two government amendments, which are both minor and technical in nature, relating to Clauses 38 and 117. These amendments clarify that digital content is included in the meaning of the phrase “goods or services” when used in Part 1 of the Bill, including when mentioned under the final offer mechanism. I hope that noble Lords will support these amendments.

[Lord Kamall (Con)]

I apologise—I should have maybe intervened earlier but I did not want to join the barrage, as it were. When my noble friend the Minister writes to us, as he inevitably will, I wonder whether he can help us to understand the Government’s position on countervailing benefits by outlining what they really mean by that and giving some real or hypothetical examples of where consumers may be harmed by a pro-competitive intervention by the CMA.

[Viscount Camrose (Con)]

Yes, indeed. I thank my noble friend for repeating the question and I apologise that I did not get to it earlier. I would be delighted to write and provide such examples.

Advanced Research and Innovation Agency

Debate between Lord Kamall and Viscount Camrose

Thursday 29th June 2023 Lords Chamber

[Viscount Camrose (Con)]

Indeed—again, the point is well taken. We cannot have these types of organisations existing in separate universes and not talking to each other. It is crucial that they exploit their complementarity in this way.

[Lord Kamall (Con)]

My Lords, we are all very supportive of ARIA, but the important issue is the innovation principle and embedding that principle across government in all departments. Defra published five environmental principles—integration, prevention, rectification, polluter pays and precautionary—but there was no innovation principle. It is essential that we see the innovation principle right across government.

[Viscount Camrose (Con)]

Indeed. As set out in the ARIA Act, ARIA is required to observe three principles that come under the broad heading of innovation: contributing to the economic growth of the UK; promoting scientific innovation in the UK; and improving quality of life of everyone in the UK.

Horizon Europe

Debate between Lord Kamall and Viscount Camrose

Wednesday 28th June 2023 Lords Chamber

[Viscount Camrose (Con)]

As I have said, the Government’s preferred position is to associate to the Horizon programme. As to what we are doing about it, we are negotiating purposefully with the EU to bring that about. However, that association has to take place on fair and appropriate terms. Should we not be able to secure those fair and appropriate terms, we will implement Pioneer, our bold and ambitious alternative.

[Lord Kamall (Con)]

Can my noble friend the Minister reassure us that the Government see that there is a world beyond white Europe—that there is much innovation across the world, not just in the EU? While of course we want to be members of the Horizon scheme, we should not enter at any price. An example I would give is that when I was an academic, we got money from the Jean Monnet fund, and it insisted that we rename our international business course “European business”—a small European view of the world, when we should be looking globally.

[Viscount Camrose (Con)]

I thank my noble friend for making that important point. When talking about Horizon, we often slip into the language of concerning ourselves only with collaborations with the universities of Europe. Nothing could be further from good scientific practice or, indeed, from anybody’s intention.

Emergency Communications

Debate between Lord Kamall and Viscount Camrose

Monday 26th June 2023 Lords Chamber

[Viscount Camrose (Con)]

Those questions will rightly be the focus of the ongoing inquiries.

[Lord Kamall (Con)]

My Lords, a number of noble Lords have already warned about potential failures of other technology and a lack of resilience. I shall add one more, referring particularly to the question from the noble Lord, Lord Clement-Jones, about the switchover from analogue to digital. There is concern in some quarters about the impact that will have on monitoring devices, especially for people receiving social care or healthcare in their home. Could the Minister update us on the conversations going on within government to make sure that, when that switchover comes, either the devices that no longer work will be replaced or a way will be found to use those devices on the digital network?

[Viscount Camrose (Con)]

I recognise the importance of those questions, particularly with respect to our ambition to provide technology that is available to all at all times. The questions will also quite rightly be an important part of the ongoing inquiries.

Horizon Europe

Debate between Lord Kamall and Viscount Camrose

Thursday 11th May 2023 Lords Chamber

[Viscount Camrose (Con)]

I stress again that our preference is to go back into the Horizon programme. We are in negotiations with the EU to achieve that. We have understood our own requirements for doing that and are seeking them. The noble Lord would not expect me to comment on an ongoing negotiation, but our hope is that we can arrive at a deal which is fair and appropriate for UK taxpayers, businesses and, of course, universities. As to the results over the last brief period of negotiation since the signing of the Windsor Framework, I cannot put a figure on exactly how much research has not been conducted over the two months of the ongoing negotiations.

[Lord Kamall (Con)]

Can my noble friend reassure us that the Government understand that there is a world beyond white Europe? At least 15 other countries have signed up to the Horizon programme. It is not just research in Europe, but research in the world—India, the United States and elsewhere. We should look well beyond white Europe and accept not just any deal on Horizon, but one that benefits British scientists too.

[Viscount Camrose (Con)]

I thank my noble friend for the question. Regardless of which route we go down, multilateral global collaboration across the scientific and research community is crucial and highly valued by all participants. If we take the Horizon route, then, as my noble friend says, there are 15 countries outside the EU 27 that are associated with Horizon. If we go down the Pioneer route, which is not our preference, that will emphasise global collaboration, whether with the EU 27 or beyond. Additionally, we recently launched the International Science Partnerships Fund to support UK researchers and innovators to work with international partners on some of the most pressing themes of our time.