Tobacco and Vapes Bill

Debate between Lord Kamall and Baroness Northover

Report stage
Tuesday 24th February 2026 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Northover (LD)]

My Lords, this group of amendments relates to heated tobacco and its inclusion in the Bill, and in particular the rising age of sale. It is essential that the measures in the Bill apply to all tobacco products without exception. We have learned repeatedly that, where legislation leaves loopholes, the tobacco industry exploits them. We saw this with cigarillos—products defined as cigars but designed to resemble cigarettes, evading plain packaging with the flavour and pack size rules, as we discussed in Committee.

The Bill is a chance for truly comprehensive legislation. I am particularly concerned about Amendment 89, which would remove the phrase

“or consumed in any other way”.

That would leave the door wide open for further innovation from the industry to continue selling tobacco products here in the UK. The regulatory powers in the Bill must be broadly defined, including powers over packaging and presentation. This is not overreach; it is future-proofing based upon our past experience. Without it, we invite industry innovation designed solely to sidestep regulation and undermine public health.

Heated tobacco products should not be conflated with vapes. Vapes can be and are recommended for smoking cessation, following evidence, including a Cochrane review, showing that they are a helpful tool for smokers. Heated tobacco products do not meet that standard and are not recommended by NICE. They are used by fewer than 1% of people in the UK, yet awareness of them is rising, particularly among young people. Alarmingly, nearly one-quarter of 11 to 17 year-olds are now aware of these products, and that may well be the result of their marketing in supermarkets and online.

I therefore welcome government Amendments 217, 218 and 219, which ensure that the comprehensive definition of a tobacco product applies from the moment the Bill comes into force. That will help to address the ongoing and unacceptable advertising of heated tobacco products in supermarkets and elsewhere. If we are indeed serious about creating a smoke-free generation, all tobacco products, including heated tobacco, must be included without ambiguity or exception.

[Lord Kamall (Con)]

My Lords, my noble friend has tabled a number of amendments on heated tobacco products. Although there may be some concern about what is behind them, they raise important questions that I am afraid the Government have yet to answer with any real precision.

As I noted in Committee, there appears to be some evidence that individuals who switched from conventional cigarettes to heated tobacco products show lower levels of exposure to harmful chemicals than those who continue smoking. I am just comparing them to cigarettes, not to vapes. To be clear, I do not suggest that this settles the question of harm—these are relatively new products, and the long-term evidence base is still developing—but it means that the Government cannot simply treat heated tobacco products as interchangeable with conventional cigarettes without explaining why they refuse to consider their relative harm compared to cigarettes. I am talking about not absolute harm, but relative harm.

There is also the practical question of where these products may be used. The position on indoor and outdoor spaces remains, as far as I can tell, unclear. Heated tobacco does not produce combustion or sidestream smoke in the conventional sense, and yet it is not obvious from the Bill how the Government intend to address that distinction—if they intend to address it at all.

More fundamentally, can the Minister explain what specific evidence underpins the decision to include heated tobacco in the generational ban? I am sure all noble Lords accept that current evidence shows that vapes are relatively safer than smoking. It may be that vapes are relatively safer than heated tobacco, but as yet, we have not seen definitive evidence. Unfortunately, as noble Lords have said, much of the research on heated tobacco is funded by the tobacco industry. I can understand the concern there. I hope the Minister will correct me if I am wrong, but there is no definitive independent research on the relative harms of heated tobacco. If there is definitive research, can the Minister write to noble Lords with links to the relevant academic papers? I think we saw one link to a meta study that was not very good, but there has been no meaningful in-depth research.

This reminds me of a conversation I had with a friend, who told me that when they tried vapes to quit smoking, it unfortunately did not do the job for them. When they went back to their doctor, he said that he was not supposed to do this, but he suggested heated tobacco as a relatively less harmful alternative. While he hoped his patient might have switched from cigarettes to vapes, since this had not happened—we do not live in a perfect world—he preferred his patient to use heated tobacco to going back to cigarettes. Once again, this was a practical approach based on relative harms.

I completely understand the concern that, if we overpromote heated tobacco, we might find that smokers switch to it rather than vapes. Given that the policy rationale rests substantially on reducing harm—we should be looking at absolute harm and relative harm— I would welcome clarity on whether the Government are satisfied that the case for treating heated tobacco like cigarettes is proven. It will be interesting to see that distinction between heated tobacco and cigarettes. Is the science still sufficiently uncertain to warrant a more cautious approach?

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[Baroness Northover (LD)]

My Lords, I am delighted to have the support of the noble Baroness, Lady Fox, on my earlier amendment on the communications strategy, and that she has come around to my point of view on this. It clearly is vital that we have an excellent, proactive communication strategy in relation to this new policy, as I argued on the first group.

These amendments seek to ensure that penalties for offences are fair and proportionate. I am very sympathetic to Amendment 60 from the noble Lord, Lord Udny-Lister, which looks like a very useful attempt to take a stepped approach to fines; it seems a very reasonable way to go about this. I look forward to hearing what the Minister says about that, and why she feels, if she does, that it is not necessary or appropriate.

We believe that Amendment 63 is not necessary, as the ability to give warnings already exists. On Amendment 17 on counterfeit products, I am delighted to return the compliment to the noble Baroness, Lady Fox, who says that she does not like to have unnecessary new offences, by telling her that we understand that this is currently an offence under the Trade Marks Act and that offences under that Act are automatically lifestyle offences, meaning that a proceeds of crime application can be used to remove criminal earnings. Maybe the Minister can comment on these various amendments.

[Lord Kamall (Con)]

My Lords, my noble friends Lord Moylan and Lord Udny-Lister benefited this debate by coming forward with their amendments in this group based on their extensive experience in local government. I warmly welcome Amendment 17; counterfeiting nicotine products is not a victimless crime. It undercuts legitimate businesses that are already operating under considerable regulatory and financial pressure.

Let us be clear that the cumulative burden placed on small businesses, regulatory or otherwise, is already substantial. These businesses, as other noble Lords have said, are already playing by the rules. They pay their taxes and comply with an ever-increasing, complex regulatory framework. It is simply not fair that they should find themselves undercut by operators selling counterfeit products outside that framework entirely.

Beyond the commercial harm, there is a serious consumer safety dimension. Counterfeit nicotine products are unregulated, untested and potentially dangerous. I ask the Minister to confirm that the Government share the view that the robust criminal penalties for counterfeiting are not only appropriate but essential. I would be grateful to hear what steps are being taken to ensure that enforcement capacity exists to make sure that these penalties are meaningful.

At earlier stages of the Bill, I know there were some concerns about the capacity of trading standards, for example. The sum that the Government have made available for local trading standards is to be welcomed, but some still wonder whether it will be enough or whether it is a drop in the ocean.

My noble friend Lord Udny-Lister’s amendments reflect a sensible approach to fixed penalty notices. A step penalty structure that treats a first offence differently from repeated non-compliance is surely right. While some local authorities may already have discretion to issue a warning instead of a fixed penalty for first-time offenders, as my noble friend has raised, it is important that first-time offenders are not treated unduly harshly given the complexity of some of the regulations that these small retailers will have to face. I hope the Minister, if she feels that she cannot accept the amendments as they stand, can say some positive things about them.

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[Baroness Northover (LD)]

From these Benches, the Minister can count on our support.

[Lord Kamall (Con)]

My Lords, the hour is late and, given that some of my noble friends have left the Chamber—no doubt to enjoy a very expensive handcrafted cigar—it is left to my noble friend Lord Effingham and me to offer the opposition. If I had any temptation to call a Division, I can see that I am outnumbered.

I thank the Minister for tabling these amendments. I know that many of them are technical, but some are very important. I particularly welcome Amendment 165, which provides sensible protection for internet service providers acting merely as conduits, caching services or passive hosts. They are not really active in this space. They do not initiate, select or modify the content transmitted across their networks, and it would not be fair or practical to render them criminally liable for material of which they have no knowledge and over which they exercise no control.

Similarly, Amendments 166 and 178 ensure that legitimate public health campaigns are not inadvertently caught out by the advertising offences in the Bill. Where a person is acting in accordance with arrangements made by a public authority and for the purpose of promoting or protecting public health, it would be wrong for them to face criminal liability.

Finally, we welcome Amendment 183 because it ensures that the new restrictions do not apply retrospectively to programmes that were already in production before the new rules came into force. I suppose this is all a very long way of saying that we welcome the amendments from the Government.

Health and Care Bill

Debate between Lord Kamall and Baroness Northover

Lords Hansard - Part 2 & Committee stage
Thursday 13th January 2022 Lords Chamber

[The Parliamentary Under Secretary of State, Department of Health and Social Care (Lord Kamall) (Con)]

I thank the noble Lord, Lord Stevens, for the amendments and the noble Baroness, Lady Hayman, for her opening remarks. I also thank the noble Baroness for her suggestion yesterday that it might make my life a lot easier if I just accepted amendments. I understand that advice, having just gone through a two-hour debate on the previous group.

A number of noble Lords referred to how these amendments relate to our previous debate on inequalities. I point out that that is sometimes not quite in the way that we would expect. We might think there is a direct connection, but sometimes the green agenda can be seen to be for those who can afford it—as I explained before, for the white, middle-class, patronising people who tell immigrant working-class communities what to do and push up their costs. Anti-car policies push up costs for those in rural areas, and there are higher fuel costs as we replace gas boilers with potentially more expensive heat pumps. We have to be aware of those issues. In the long term, I am optimistic. I look forward to the day when we have solar power and wind power, with storage capacity, which will reduce costs.

[Baroness Northover (LD)]

Will the Minister look at this globally and recognise that the poorest are affected the worst? When he talks about those in poverty, he should think globally.

[Lord Kamall (Con)]

I accept that point, but I also accept that, sometimes, one can be patronised, and I do not accept being patronised as I was in the earlier debate. One day, there will be cheaper fuel, and we can look forward to it, but we have to make sure that the transition along the way is not seen to push up costs for working people, because we all feel passionately about this green agenda.