Terrorism Act 2000 (Proscribed Organisations) (Amendment) Order 2015

Debate between Lord Judd and Baroness Smith of Basildon

Thursday 22nd January 2015 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Smith of Basildon (Lab)]

My Lords, I thank the Minister for his explanation and for writing to me earlier in the week with further information. I am genuinely grateful; like his predecessor, who is also here tonight, he has always been willing to engage with us and assist us by providing information. He will appreciate that we do not have access to the same security information as the Government and we take the information given by Ministers on trust. We support this order and recognise the need to have such protections in place. The judgment that we make has to be based on our trust in Ministers and the information that they provide to the House. The information given here is quite clear.

I will raise just two issues with the noble Lord, which I have mentioned to him. One is about the Prevent programme. It is quite clear when we hear of cases like this, of extremism and the dangers and fear it brings and the horrific terrorist acts that are inflicted, we must do everything we can to deter young people from becoming radicalised to the extent that they wish to commit such violence in this or any other country. The Counter-Terrorism and Security Bill, which we are currently discussing—it has two days in the Chamber next week—addresses just that issue and how important it is to deter young people from being caught up in extremist views. It is a question of extent: holding views is one thing, but if that leads to terrorism and engagement in terrorist activities, clearly that is extraordinarily serious and has to be tackled.

One way of doing that is through the Prevent programme, which the Bill places on a statutory footing, and we welcome that. But we need to think long-term on these issues. Over the past few years the funding for Prevent has been cut from £17 million when we were in government to less than £3 million. If we are serious about tackling such issues, we cannot think, “What’s the next issue? What’s the one after? What’s happening next week or next month?”; we have to think long-term. I was appalled that at one point the number of local authorities receiving funding from Prevent fell from 90 to just 23, although I think that is improving now. We support Prevent being on a statutory footing but I urge some longer-term thinking to ensure that we tackle this at source and prevent any more of our young people being caught up in such abuse of their religion.

I told the Minister as we came into the Chamber that I would briefly raise this second matter. I mentioned the issue of trust and us not having access to the same information as the Government. In this case, I think we do have information. I was reading the Hansard of the debate last night in the other place and was absolutely horrified to see that there is a Twitter account for JAA, glorifying violence and terrorism and directing readers to other places they can get such information. It is an English Twitter account, in English; there are links to the Arabic site as well. This account has more than 14,000 followers. My honourable friend Diana Johnson, the shadow Minister, raised this last night, and I am appalled that when I looked on Twitter today, just minutes before I came into the Chamber, I saw that that account is still active.

If we are serious about dealing with young people and tackling such terrorism, we have to look at how social media is being used and use all the powers available to us to do something about it. Surely the Government are aware of this. The Minister will probably say the same as the Minister said last night—that it has been reported to the appropriate body, which is dealing with it. However, there are powers in place and we have to look to those who engage with social media and those responsible for it. I do not expect to be able at the click of a button to access a Twitter account glorifying such horrendous terrorist acts.

I make a plea to the Government. The powers are there. Referring this problem to a body that is going to look at it and think about it is not good enough, and I hope that by tomorrow if I look at that account it will be closed down.

[Lord Judd (Lab)]

I very much took my noble friend’s point about looking at this long-term and strategically. Will she re-emphasise that there is no way in which we can look at this effectively in the long term, whatever firm action must be taken now, unless we take very seriously why young people feel attracted to join these movements and what the real causes are in their minds that lead them on to this unfortunate path?

[Baroness Smith of Basildon]

I entirely agree with my noble Friend. I think the aim of the Prevent programme, which clearly has not been as successful as we would want it to be to date, is to ensure that we engage with young people and with those in positions of authority, to whom young people listen. I do not know whether my noble Friend saw the account that I did last week, of a young woman who went to, I think, Syria with her child. Her family dropped her off at the airport thinking she was flying to Spain. She went out to Syria, and now she is trying to return home, completely disillusioned by what she has seen out there. She thought she was going to support a cause, and she realised what a terrible mistake she had made. We do not want young people making that mistake, and we want to ensure that there are preventive programmes in place.

Part of the Bill, I have to say, is what the Government are trying to achieve, but, as my noble Friend said, we must think longer term and realise how serious this is for the consequences, not only for the security of the nation but also for those young people themselves, who in many cases have been abused and end up disillusioned and disengaged. That is not what we want for young people.

I say to the noble Lord that we support this order. I repeat my gratitude to him for keeping us informed and writing to me beforehand.

European Union: Justice and Home Affairs

Debate between Lord Judd and Baroness Smith of Basildon

Thursday 8th May 2014 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Smith of Basildon]

My Lords, changes could well be made, and I have already indicated one: this Government should have accepted the European supervision order. However, we are not ceding any sovereignty whatever by being able to go to another country to return criminals to the UK to face justice or by extraditing criminals to other countries to face justice there. That is not giving up sovereignty; it is bringing justice to those who deserve it. I am not prepared to say to a mother whose daughter has been murdered or raped that we will not continue with the European arrest warrant, which ensures that we are able to extradite criminals quickly. The noble Lord may be slightly older than me but I remember the days of the Costa del Crime, when this country struggled to extradite back to the UK criminals who had committed crimes and fled the country.

Real people want that protection and I welcome the fact that the Government have now made a U-turn and accepted that we need the European arrest warrant. However, we need assurances that they are not going to put public safety at risk through there being a gap between the opt-out and opting back in. The European arrest warrant is a legal framework and transition measures will have to be legally robust to ensure the satisfaction of the courts in dealing with extradition. Those arrangements have now expired so we need to ensure that there is no gap.

In conclusion, I am concerned about the whole process. Our EU Committee remains unconvinced by the Government’s arguments on the opt-out. Perhaps the most damning and worrying comments I have read in the whole of these debates are in paragraph 19 of the committee’s follow-up report, when it refers to the,

“lack of analytical rigour and clarity regarding evidence drawn upon”,

by the Government. That should give us all cause for concern.

Three Select Committees in the other place— the European scrutiny, home affairs and justice committees—have raised their concerns about the process in an unprecedented joint report. That echoes some of the questions that have been raised today. The Government need to respond to three key questions. Do they really need the re-opting list ready by June or next December? Is it on schedule to be ready? What arrangements have been made if agreement is not reached by that deadline? What are the transitional arrangements? It would be a tragedy for this country and for justice if the real things that matter to people in this country, such as the ability to tackle crime across borders, were sacrificed because of political rhetoric and campaigning against Europe.

[Lord Judd]

On the noble Baroness’s last point, should not the phrase about any gap be that it would be highly dangerous for the British people?

[Baroness Smith of Basildon]

It would be highly dangerous and I hope that the Government can say today that they are not prepared to put British citizens in that danger.

Crime and Courts Bill [HL]

Debate between Lord Judd and Baroness Smith of Basildon

Wednesday 4th July 2012 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Smith of Basildon]

My Lords, I have a copy of the briefing that was sent to the noble Lord, Lord Avebury, and I have had the opportunity to read through what is quite a lengthy and complex explanation as he has been speaking, which has been helpful. Therefore, I do not want to repeat the arguments that he has made.

I do have some questions, although I do not know whether the noble Lord will be able to respond. I suspect that the noble Lord, Lord Avebury, will withdraw his amendment, possibly bringing it back on Report depending on the Minister’s answer. However, I have a few questions, as I am uncertain about some of the provisions in the clause and in the amendment, and it would be helpful if the noble Lord could address them. I am quite happy to have the response in writing.

From the briefing—I am sure I am not the only Member of the Committee to have received the same briefing on the amendments of the noble Lord, Lord Avebury—there is an implication regarding the circumstances under which somebody’s leave to remain will be cancelled while they are out of the country. I should be interested to hear from the Minister the criteria for cancelling somebody’s leave to remain while they are out of the country. Is this purely an administrative decision or, as is implied, is it almost the case that the Home Secretary is lying in wait, wanting to cancel leave to remain and waiting until a person leaves the country before doing so? It would be helpful to have some information on that. What proportion of cancelled leave to remain is taken when somebody is out of the country, as opposed to somebody being in-country?

Finally—we have had a very full explanation of the amendments—the legislation refers to the decision on removing the right to remain as being,

“taken wholly or partly on the ground that it is no longer conducive to the public good”,

for the person to have that leave. Is there a definition of “public good”? Is there a definition of when there is no longer that public good and the leave to remain is withdrawn? My concerns are about people being treated fairly and that there is no presumption that, because somebody leaves the country—well, I will come back to that. However, there must not be many of these cases. It would be interesting to know what proportion of cancelled leave to remain relates to people out of the country as opposed to people who are in-country.

[Lord Judd]

My Lords, the noble Lord, Lord Avebury, is absolutely right to put down the amendment. I am glad he drew attention to the comments by UNHCR, because UNHCR has immense responsibilities on behalf of the international community and its very serious considerations are sometimes treated too lightly.

Wrapped up in this issue is something on which I dwelt at Second Reading: concern about the division between what I would call administrative law and a real search for justice. In the fraught area of migration in general and the more difficult areas of asylum and the rest in particular, where all kinds of pressures and real dangers operate for the people concerned, it is most important to be certain that the balance remains on the side of justice. I would be grateful for the Minister’s considered view on whether this priority for justice—as distinct from a self-evident rationalisation of what may be convenient within political circles—can be pursued. The individual concerned is much more vulnerable when they are abroad. As the noble Lord has said, it is much more complex, challenging and difficult to mount an appeal from abroad. Can we really ensure that justice prevails if we have this provision? Should someone who has a right to appeal not have the right to pursue it here, where they can put their case fully before the courts and be tested in depth by them on their position and where there is an opportunity for others who may have a perspective on a case to bring their views and judgments into the deliberations that are taking place?

I hope the Minister will forgive me for saying that I am profoundly worried about this and would like his assurance that he is equally worried and is looking to make sure that, in this area, it is justice and not administrative convenience—whatever the apparent logical reasons for this administrative convenience—that has pride of place.

Energy Bill [HL]

Debate between Lord Judd and Baroness Smith of Basildon

Wednesday 2nd March 2011 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Smith of Basildon]

My Lords, this amendment deals with an issue that we discussed in Committee. Most noble Lords in the Chamber now were in Committee, so to the relief of the House I will not repeat all the comments made. We are very supportive of the issue of local carbon budgets and keen to see progress. We have deliberately worded the amendment in a way that gives the Minister some flexibility to report back to the House and to Parliament on this issue.

However, if we are really to make a difference in reducing our carbon emissions, we need to engage locally and work with local government. If we look across the board at where the support lies, Greg Barker has given his support as has the Federation of Small Businesses, which e-mailed many noble Lords today to say that it supports local carbon budgets and wants to work with local authorities and the community to reduce emissions. The trade unions, the workforce and the Audit Commission all see enormous value in having local carbon budgets so that local authorities and communities can play their role not just in their own estates and properties, but in their wider communities, whether we are talking about transport or domestic properties. Actions can be taken and advice and support can be given by local authorities working with the Government and working with their local communities to ensure that we reach the kind of targets and reduce our emissions in line with targets that the Government have set. The Climate Change Act 2008 set targets for the Government. Those targets can best be met if we work with local authorities and local communities.

I hope that the Minister can update us on the action that can be taken and I hope at some stage that he can assure us that there will be a report back to this House and the other place to show how the Government can work with local authorities to ensure that we have local carbon budgets really making a difference and settling this issue.

[Lord Judd]

My Lords, I support my noble friend. This is a crucial amendment and I hope that the Minister can respond. We are all agreed that the Bill is about meeting a challenge that is overwhelming and on which literally our future survival depends. We therefore cannot have the luxury of simply talking about principles and objectives without having the means to deliver them.

Some 80 per cent of the emissions in this country originate in local communities—in our homes, workplaces, travel and the rest. Therefore, it is crucial, as my noble friend said, that if we are to deliver the results and not just spell out hopes, we must work effectively with local authorities. The only point that I would make in addition to her real commitment is to say that it is my view—I speak for myself but I hope my noble friend will agree—that if this is going to be meaningful there will have to be very specific objectives spelt out to the local authorities about what is expected of them.

We have a national aggregate target, which we then disaggregate into what is required locally. Each local authority should be in no doubt whatever about what is expected of that local authority to meet the national target and local authorities should be expected to give convincing evidence that progress is being made. I am fairly confident—in fact I am very confident—that the Minister agrees with the spirit of what I am saying. I hope that he can not only respond to my noble friend’s amendment but give reassurance that this will not just be another chapter in the world of aspirations and good intentions but will actually spell out a sea change in terms of having the levers there to get results.

Energy Bill [HL]

Debate between Lord Judd and Baroness Smith of Basildon

Wednesday 26th January 2011 Grand Committee

[Lord Judd]

I will come to that. I genuinely have no doubts about his intellectual and, indeed, moral commitment on these issues. I have talked with him and I know that he feels deeply about this. I therefore hope that he accepts that much of what we are saying in Committee is to support him in the debates which always take place within Whitehall about turning generalised aspirations into effective action.

I remember in the opening deliberations on the Bill at Second Reading that very powerful speech by my noble friend Lord Giddens. I am sorry that he has not been able to be with us in Committee, but, given all his experience and qualifications, he left no one in any doubt about how he saw these issues as imperative and needing the highest priority. I am sure that he would not mind me telling the Committee that not long after that speech, I went to a meeting elsewhere in this building to which he had been invited to speak on the subject. He started his remarks—which again were very telling—by saying that his message was so grim and would fill so many people with despondency, because of the urgency of the situation, that he wanted to start his remarks with a joke. He said: “There were two parrots. One said to the other, ‘I’m not feeling very well today’. The other said, ‘I’m sorry. What’s wrong?’. The first parrot said, ‘I think I have a touch of the homo sapiens’. The other said, ‘I wouldn’t worry, it does not last very long’”. That was a very sobering way in which to start his remarks.

My amendment is very much in the context of the discussion that we have just had on the previous amendment. I have heard for too long the repeated and vehement expression of aspirations. This is not a partisan point—it happens right across the Floor. Because of the urgency and the challenge to the survival of the species, we must really start being specific about this. It is no good just having targets and systems; we must have specific arrangements and measures to ensure that things are happening fast and effectively. That is why I have tabled my amendment.

I applaud the amendment proposed by my noble friend that comes after this one, and I fully support it, but I wanted to spell out some of the specifics, as they strike me. The Committee on Climate Change has said very firmly that a step change in action is needed if we are to meet UK climate change commitments. The vast majority of UK emissions—some 80 per cent—result from local activity, how we heat and power our homes and workplaces and how we get around. As well as getting the big national decisions right, reducing local energy use is really critical. Local government is in a strong position to lead and co-ordinate this local action. There is some outstanding work by trailblazing councils working with their communities to roll out strategies that create green jobs, cut fuel poverty and reduce traffic. But, nationwide, not nearly enough is happening. The challenge of climate change is too grave and urgent to be left to just those councils that choose to prioritise action.

The coalition—and I am sorry about this—has scrapped the local government performance framework, including the framework for councils to act on emissions reduction. From what I hear and read, early signs are that the result of this, and of other spending cuts, is the deprioritisation of action, with moves to weaken targets at the very time when they should be strengthened, the mothballing of area-wide strategies and the sacking of climate change officers. That is the reality of what is happening on the front line—the exact opposite of what we have all just been getting passionate about. A nationwide system is clearly needed to support councils and ensure that emissions come down in every local authority area.

I emphasise that I very much support my noble friend in her later amendment, but I should like to draw out the fact that councils that are trying to do the right thing are telling us that making action on climate change a core responsibility helps them to prioritise action alongside other duties at this time of economic pressure and spending cuts. I emphasise, too, that council leaders are calling for the system to be linked to the ambition of the Climate Change Act. Councils that are already delivering on strategies to cut emissions by at least 40 per cent by 2020 are demonstrating that acting in line with the Climate Change Act may be ambitious but it is realistic. The aim of what is proposed in this amendment is to ensure a step change in action while empowering local people to decide on the emissions-cutting measures that will best serve their communities. I beg to move.

[Baroness Smith of Basildon]

My Lords, I shall speak to Amendment 29ZB and also about the general principle of local carbon budgets, on which we have tabled two other amendments. We have just heard the noble Lord, Lord Judd, and the noble Lord, Lord Deben, will also speak on this issue.

At the start of discussions on this Bill, I suggested by way of an amendment that the Government should seek to quantify the level of carbon reduction they are seeking to achieve with this legislation, either directly or as a by-product of legislation, given that in improving energy efficiency we reduce carbon. The noble Lord, Lord Marland, said that he was in complete agreement on the relevance of the Bill to carbon targets and to the fuel poor. Today we are seeking to build on that agreement and that relevance.

The value and purpose of local carbon targets is quite evident. Local authorities were very keen to take up the previous Government’s pilot schemes which examined how carbon could be reduced by setting targets locally. The success and popularity of these schemes is quite significant. There is fairly widespread support for this approach. The Minister will be aware of the support from his ministerial colleagues, not just from his own department but from other departments as well. The Minister’s noble friend Greg Barker has said:

“It can’t all be done from the centre. We can put in the big infrastructure”,

but,

“fundamentally this is a transition that has to”,

have the active engagement of people locally. He added:

“I’m working now with my officials, having worked very extensively with Friends of the Earth in opposition, on local carbon budgets to try and come up with something that is effective, that is fair and useful, but also doesn’t impose undue burdens on councils”.

The key is the real difference that having local carbon budgets could make.

I am disappointed that since the 2010 spending review we have pulled back and local authorities are no longer required to choose which national indicators they wish to report on. The Department of Energy and Climate Change will still produce local carbon figures, so we are still recognising the relevance of local carbon reduction. This Bill, which already works with local authorities, is an ideal opportunity to bring forward these kinds of measures and work with local authorities and I am grateful to the Minister for the opportunity to raise this.

This issue has some very key supporters. One of the things said quite rightly by Greg Barker is that we have to find a way that is fair and effective but does not produce undue burdens on local authorities. The attitude of local government to local carbon budgets is one of support; clearly they would not support anything they considered placed undue burdens on them.

The Minister may have seen the letter to Secretary of State Chris Huhne from local authority leaders of all parties—Councillor Barbara Janke, the Liberal Democrat leader of Bristol City Council; Sir Richard Leese, the leader of Manchester City Council which is of course Labour and Councillor Mike Heenan, Conservative leader of Stafford Borough Council. There were pages and pages of local authority leaders of all parties who want to support this. I am sure the other noble Lords received the same letter I did from the leader of the Conservative-controlled West Sussex County Council, Louise Goldsmith, as well as from Barbara Janke and Sir Richard Leese.

These council leaders, players not only in their local authority but in their community, would not be seeking to impose burdens on their local authority if they thought they were ineffective, or that they were too costly or that they would not work. They are proposing them because they know they can do it and they know they can make a difference. The Localism Bill is very interesting but one of its big problems is that local authorities may not have the money to implement some of the things they wish to do. This amendment is an opportunity, in the spirit of localism, to introduce measures to have local targets to meet carbon budgets.