Pubs Code and the Adjudicator

Debate between Lord Jackson of Peterborough and Anna Soubry

Thursday 14th April 2016 Westminster Hall

[The Minister for Small Business, Industry and Enterprise (Anna Soubry)]

I congratulate the hon. Member for Leeds North West (Greg Mulholland) on securing the debate, I thank everyone who has contributed to it and I pay tribute not only to the hon. Gentleman, but to other hon. Members who have for many years been campaigning to ensure that the great British pub has a genuine, sustainable future.

I have to put on record a number of things. One of the things that has annoyed me all my life is any form of stereotyping. I object to it, so I object to anyone who thinks that because I am a woman I do not like pubs or ale—although I am not suggesting that anyone present has said any such thing. Throughout my life, I have enjoyed drinking ale in great pubs. By way of example, I name the Crown Inn in Beeston, the Horse and Jockey in Stapleford and the Nelson and Railway—a particularly exceptional pub—in Kimberley, all of which are in my constituency.

I confess that I started enjoying pubs at the age of 16 and I well remember, with great fondness, the many happy bonds with my school friends that were forged in the Old Ship Inn in Worksop and that have continued all the way through my life. As for so many people, those bonds were formed in pubs. We could also go on to debate all that pubs bring to our communities and to individuals, and the role that they play in the lives of so many people, which they have done for many centuries.

We all agree that we want to ensure that our great British pubs have a genuine, sustainable future. We want to ensure a fair deal for tenants, and for too long they have not had that fair deal in too many instances. Equally, we want a sustainable industry. Unlike some, I do not want pubcos to go out of business. I want them to invest in the future and I want them to act responsibly. It is a question of balance.

If there is one thing that I have learned since being appointed last May—the hon. Member for West Bromwich West (Mr Bailey) mentioned this, and he has been at it longer than I have, if I may say so—it is that there is a lot of noise and aggravation, distrust and, in some instances, anger about this. Sometimes there is also a lot of unpleasantness, but unfortunately that is a feature of modern political life. I have been the subject of abuse on Twitter from some tenants groups and tenants, and it all gets a bit tedious. However, we have to try and calm everything down and work together, so that we get the right balance and fairness to secure a proper future for our great British pubs. That is what I seek to do.

I mentioned stereotyping, and I also get a little—some might say overly—excited about the notion that, as a Minister, I am not fully aware of my duties in making appointments, or in all matters, of course. I have served in a number of Departments as a Minister, so I have made a number of appointments in my time. My duty is to ensure that I get the right candidate—to go through the proper process, with rigour and fairness, to get the right person into the job. I object to any suggestion that I appointed Mr Newby because I thought he was a lovely man.

I took my decision with great care. Three candidates were placed before me, all of them eminently appointable. I took the view that Mr Newby was the best of the three. Those other two people are real human beings, and they were exceptionally good candidates, but he shone out. The idea that I did not consider whether his appointment might please some more than others is frankly rather patronising. I wanted to appoint someone who I believed had the skills, ability and, most importantly, integrity to ensure that there was a level playing field and fairness—in particular, if I may say so, for tenants. If anyone suggests otherwise, I will take a very robust view with them.

[Mr Jackson]

For all I know, Mr Newby might be a lovely man. It is important to put that on the record.

May I also correct the record? I erroneously stated that the appointment was made under the auspices of a statutory instrument. I now know that that is not the case.

I think it is quite reasonable for key stakeholders to say that for a new group of Ministers and civil servants dealing with a complex, dense, difficult and contentious area, to err is human and there may have been genuine mistakes. I do not think that anyone is impugning the Minister’s integrity.

[Anna Soubry]

I am very grateful to my hon. Friend for his wise words. I take objection to the idea that the civil servants, in the most difficult of circumstances—they really are up against the clock—have not acted with total integrity. They have done a great job. I think that we sometimes forget that civil servants are professionals and human beings. With few exceptions, they serve us extremely well and do a good job.

Make no mistake: I do not have any complaints about the rigour of this place’s questioning and probing, and I am grateful to my hon. Friend for his comments. I hope he knows that I always act with complete integrity and would weigh up all the matters in favour of and against the appointment of anyone to ensure that we get the right person. I do not know whether Mr Newby is a lovely person, but I do know that he brings the requisite skills, ability and experience, and I am confident that he will act with integrity and do a good and fair job.

As I made clear on 10 March, Mr Newby is an excellent candidate. He was appointed in accordance with the code of practice for ministerial appointments to public bodies. As I did then, I take exception to any allegation that I or, indeed, anyone else has acted improperly or with complicity, and I have no doubt that he has all the necessary skills and experience of the pubs trade.