Cultural Property (Armed Conflicts) Bill [HL]
Debate between Lord Inglewood and Baroness Northover
Lord Inglewood
My Lords, in her response to my intervention on the previous amendment the Minister responded to some things I wanted to touch on and raise under this amendment—so it was nice to hear from her in advance of my comments.
First, speaking as president of the British Art Market Federation, I emphasise that the federation warmly welcomes the Bill—and does so for two completely different reasons. The first is that it is inherently a good and a right thing to do. Secondly, the British art market, which is based particularly in London but not exclusively so, needs to have the reputation as a clean market. If it is not a clean market, it will not be able to benefit those who deal in it as well as it would if it were. This is as true of a stock exchange or the City of London as it is of the British art market.
The Minister told the Committee at the end of her remarks on the previous amendment what she expected of the British art market. I listened carefully and I think that I understood everything accurately. I can say that not only is that what we expect of the British art market but that she missed two things out. The first is that we expect those who break the law to be prosecuted and then convicted. Secondly—this was an important point made by the noble Lord, Lord Collins—we are not ultimately interested in prosecuting people for crimes; we want to see a world where these crimes do not take place in the first instance. If you have a market which succeeds in prosecuting criminals who operate in and around it, you will go a long way towards achieving just that.
I will touch on some comments I made at the conclusion of my contribution to the discussion on the previous clause. It seems that we need to get two important things right in the context of the criminal law here. The first is that the mens rea needs to be right—I think that my noble friend knows this. We feel that the mens rea as drafted in the Bill is a bit woolly. If you have a slightly woolly definition of what the necessary mens rea is, clever lawyers will be able to get slippery individuals off, and that is not a good thing. We believe, bearing in mind the way in which the criminal law is construed in this country, that a mens rea of knowing or suspecting will assist in bringing criminals to book. Secondly, the particularity of what is required of people should be clear, straightforward and doable. As I said earlier, this is not an exercise in writing a paper which may get you a First in your finals at university but an exercise in bringing bad lads to book.
Against that background, we have heard quite a lot of remarks about the extent of criminality in the London art market, particularly in the context of the tragic events in the Middle East. As I understand it—and I do not have a lot of first-hand knowledge—undoubtedly during the Iraq war there was a significant amount of trade in illegal objects which derived from Iraq at that time. Since then, in the context of the Syrian conflict, my understanding is that the London art market has hardly been involved. This is partly to do with the cultural property offences Act, which we have already had reference to, and partly to do with the fact that those who are engaged in this activity, which is undoubtedly happening, are no longer using the London art market as the place from which to disseminate their ill-gotten goods. In corroboration of this, I understand that the Metropolitan Police has put it on the record that London is now a much cleaner market than it was before.
One reason for that is the expansion of proper due diligence. If you use due diligence, you do not necessarily need to have in front of you an enormous schedule of provenance. After all, these days a good provenance enhances the value of a work of art, and most people sell works of art in order to make as much money as possible. But, in the context of the kind of object that might have been looted, not having appropriate provenance gives rise to suspicion and, if there is suspicion, you will potentially be liable to prosecution. If you look at it like that, do not prescribe the rules too tightly and allow the application of principle in dealing with these matters, you will almost certainly be more successful.
Earlier, we heard a number of suggestions regarding illegal trade going on in London. I would just say: do not raise them on the Floor of the House of Lords; go to the police and get the criminals banged up. That is what is required. There have been so few prosecutions and it has been suggested to me that the reason is that there has not been the evidence to justify bringing them. I am not saying that everything is perfect—but that again goes back to the fact that, in the case of the current conflict, this is not the principal place where people wish to launder these sorts of items.
The noble Lord, Lord Howarth, is absolutely right: we must not overlook the fact that the art market, like all markets in this country, is subject to comprehensive and extensive money-laundering regulation. That, as much as anything else, ought to answer certain criticisms that have been made. The noble Lord is probably right that changing the burden of proof in the way described would be a pretty fundamental change to the way that things are done in this country. It would probably drive the bad lads underground, because you can always sell things privately. We do not know what goes on when things are sold privately but I suspect that it is a much easier way to fence stuff. So I urge the Government to look very carefully at what is proposed because I doubt that it will have the result that its proponents suggest. It could have a damaging effect on the honest market, and if you do not have an honest market there is always the temptation for a parallel dishonest market to develop.
Baroness Northover
My Lords, I support the amendment in the names of the noble Earl, Lord Clancarty, and my noble friends Lord Redesdale and Lady Bonham-Carter. I emphasise the vital importance of not only preserving the world’s cultural heritage but doing our best to curtail funding for terrorist groups. People tend to think of oil or extortion as funding terrorism, but we know that people trafficking and, as the noble Lord, Lord Collins, has just said, the wildlife trade, as well as the trafficking of cultural objects, also fund terrorism. That is not what people—the consumers, to whom the noble Earl, Lord Clancarty, refers—think as they buy a beautiful or historic object, which is why these provisions are so important: transparency is absolutely vital.
Can the Minister tell me whether the funding of the Arts and Antiques Unit in the Metropolitan Police, as with other areas in which the Met is pursuing corruption overseas, counts towards our overseas development assistance—ODA—calculations? Also, given Brexit and the potential shrinking of the economy, can she say whether our commitment to 0.7% of GNI for ODA will continue—and what provisions have been made if that does not happen?