Great British Energy Bill

Debate between Lord Hunt of Kings Heath and Viscount Trenchard

Committee stage
Wednesday 15th January 2025 Grand Committee

[Viscount Trenchard (Con)]

At the point when the Committee decided to adjourn its deliberations on Monday, I was about to make a brief intervention in support of my noble friend Lady Noakes and the noble Lord, Lord Vaux. As my noble friend Lady Noakes explained, GBE will be a private company, which would normally allow it nine months in which to file its accounts. As my noble friend explained on Monday, Amendment 88 changes that to six months, in line with the requirement for public companies. GBE may not be a public company technically, but it certainly is a company of huge interest to the public. It is therefore obviously right that the company should be required to prepare its accounts in accord with the rules applicable to public companies, rather than taking advantage of the more lenient requirement applicable to private companies.

In his remarks in the House yesterday, the Minister said that he recognised that it was the role of the Opposition to scrutinise legislation. But I ask the noble Lord: is it not actually the role of the whole House to scrutinise legislation, including the Government’s own Back-Benchers? He probably did not mean it when he said that it was the role of the Opposition.

[The Minister of State, Department for Energy Security and Net Zero (Lord Hunt of Kings Heath) (Lab)]

The point was that I was responding to a comment made by the Opposition Chief Whip about scrutiny. But of course I very much take the point that this is a matter for the whole House. The very fact that my noble friend Lady Young spoke to this group shows how effective that scrutiny can be.

[Viscount Trenchard (Con)]

I thank the Minister for his kind explanation, which certainly clarifies that. As far as my interventions on Monday are concerned— I spoke at length and several times—I take issue with and very much resent being accused of having filibustered. If the noble Lord looks at my contributions, he will find that they were all different.

I suggest that one reason why there have been so many amendments to the Bill is that so little was included in it. It is very thin Bill, but it has £8 billion of public money. Many of us are puzzled that GBE is being established effectively with £8 billion of public money, whereas Great British Nuclear, which has no public money to speak of, continues to operate in a kind of silo. I recognise that the noble Lord attempted to reassure the Committee about how GBN and GBE will work together, but I do not think that they can be described as comparable organisations.

I had intended to support my noble friend Lady Noakes and the noble Lord, Lord Vaux, on Amendment 88, and I added my name to it. I think that it is necessary because although GBE is intended to be structured as a public company, it will have only one shareholder, the Secretary of State. As my noble friend explained on Monday—she is well known as an expert in these matters—we must be sure that GBE will be managed according to the standards that would be expected by shareholders in public companies. That is why changing the nine-month provision for filing accounts to six months is so necessary.

I have also added my name to Amendment 89, in the names of the noble Lords, Lord Vaux and Lord Cameron, and my noble friend Lady Noakes. It is particularly important that the accounts must comply with the stipulation in proposed subsection (d), to provide

“an assessment of the extent to which”

any investments made or partnerships entered into

“have encouraged additional investment by the private sector”.

It is clear that the very long incubation period for nuclear projects places them outside the criteria for many private sector investors, but some public investment can be effective in unlocking private investment through match funding, as the Rolls-Royce SMR programme has already shown.

I also support Amendment 92, in the name of my noble friend Lady Noakes and that of the noble Lord, Lord Vaux, which would ensure that the Comptroller and Auditor-General must audit GBE’s accounts.

Great British Energy Bill

Debate between Lord Hunt of Kings Heath and Viscount Trenchard

Committee stage
Monday 13th January 2025 Lords Chamber

[Lord Hunt of Kings Heath (Lab)]

My Lords, it is always good to have a discussion about nuclear energy. The noble Viscount, Lord Trenchard, is ever consistent in putting forward his views. I assure him and the Committee that the Government see nuclear power as having a vital and important part in our energy mix.

I say to the noble Lord, Lord Hamilton, that the fact is that no technology is mentioned in the Bill, and that is quite deliberate—so the absence of nuclear in the Bill should not be taken as an indication that we do not think that it has an important role to play. I say to the noble Lord, Lord Offord, on Labour’s record on nuclear, it was in fact a Labour Government, in 2008, who took the decision that we would go back to new nuclear. Shortly afterwards, I was appointed a Minister of State at the Department for Energy and Climate Change, and I took part in many discussions at that point about how we got the sites, developed the supply chain and attracted investment. The fact is that we were succeeded by a coalition Government, followed by a Conservative Government, and it was not until, I think, 2017 that a final investment decision was made in relation to Hinkley Point C.

I am very proud of the nuclear sector. For all the challenges that Hinkley Point C has had, the fact is that a UK supply chain has been developed. The point about replication at Sizewell C is that that supply chain can then continue to service Sizewell C. We then want to see small modular reactors and AMRs developed, because we see them as having great potential. I say to the noble Viscount, Lord Trenchard, that he has not responded to the points raised by his colleague, the noble Lord, Lord Howell, in relation to Sizewell C. I am sure he will agree with me that, if we were to pull the plug on Sizewell C at this point, it would have a devastating impact on the confidence of the nuclear sector, in this country and globally. Actually—although he is not here—the point about replication is about the derisking of Sizewell C, building on what happened at Hinkley Point C, including the design changes and all the other issues, such as the time it took to develop the supply chain and the productivity issues. The case for Sizewell C is very strong indeed, and we look forward to moving towards a final investment decision over the next few months.

On the relationship between GBN and GBE, we have decided that GBN will remain a separate legal entity. That is important, because it makes sure that we have a body that can focus completely on nuclear energy, but working very strongly together with Great British Energy. The two chairs have met and have, I believe, built a very strong relationship already. I expect them to be able to work in strong partnership in future. I do not think it is necessary to put onerous requirements in the Bill. Certainly, Clause 6 is not the way in which to do it.

The noble Viscount, Lord Trenchard, is concerned about the approach that GBN is taking to the SMR technology selection process. It was instituted by his own party in government, and I think he was critical of his own Government. Well, I am not. I think the SMR technology assessment was absolutely the right thing to do. In September 2024 it concluded the initial tender phase of the process and downselected four companies. We hope for further progress over the next few months.

I recognise the huge potential that AMRs bring, and we will respond to the alternative routes to market consultation. We are obviously very keen to do what we can to attract nuclear company developers in this country.

On the impact of competitiveness, I really do not think the Bill is an appropriate vehicle for those considerations, and nor do I see that being part of Great British Energy’s role. But of course I want there to be a thriving nuclear industry in this country. I want to see us build on the supply chain that has been built around Hinkley Point C and then on to Sizewell C, as I have said.

In conclusion, I hope the noble Viscount will recognise that while he may disagree with elements of the Government’s policy on nuclear, he should be under no misapprehension: we believe that nuclear provides an essential baseload. We will continue to support the industry in the future.

[Viscount Trenchard (Con)]

My Lords, I thank the Minister very much for his reply, and I thank my noble friend for his intervention. To some extent I am heartened by the Minister’s words, although I remain a little unconvinced by his assertion that he sees nuclear as being so important. There is a fundamental difference between GBE and GBN, in that GBE has £8.2 billion of capital and GBN has only a few hundred million. The two vehicles are completely different, so I would be rather more relieved if the Minister had explained that the capital made available to GBE would equally be available to nuclear projects that GBN might recommend for investment.

[Lord Hunt of Kings Heath (Lab)]

Can I just respond? Nothing precludes GBE from investing in a nuclear development.

[Viscount Trenchard (Con)]

I thank the Minister again for his reply. Nevertheless, GBN does not have any money for investment, so GBN is by definition a very different kind of vehicle compared with GBE. In light of the Minister’s reply, I would like to withdraw my amendment for now.

Great British Energy Bill

Debate between Lord Hunt of Kings Heath and Viscount Trenchard

Committee stage
Tuesday 17th December 2024 Lords Chamber

[Lord Hunt of Kings Heath (Lab)]

We will reflect very keenly on that between Committee and Report.

There is no doubt about the argument. We are facing a twin climate and nature crisis. They are inextricably linked. Not only are the Government committed to reaching net zero by 2050 and clean power by 2030, we are also committed to restoring nature—for example, with the Environment Act targets in England to halt the decline in species abundance by 2030—and to effectively protect our marine protected areas as part of our global 30-by-30 commitment.

We know that the UK is one of the most nature-depleted countries in the world, so it is not enough for us to protect or conserve. This is why the Government are committed to restoring nature through such targets, and our related international commitments. The real opportunity available to the UK is to deliver clean power by 2030 in a way that does not simply avoid or compensate for damage to nature, but is constantly innovating to deliver the target in a nature-positive way, such as rewetting lowland peat soils at the same time as constructing new solar farms or creating new wildlife corridors alongside or underneath linear energy infrastructure. The noble Lord, Lord Teverson, referred to that potential earlier in our previous debate.

It is not so much about balancing energy and infrastructure needs but about trying to integrate them, rebuilding our natural infrastructure at the same time as building the new energy infrastructure we need in the 21st century. It is significant that in the Clean Power 2030 Action Plan, the Government have said that we

“will launch an engagement exercise in early 2025 to invite communities, civil society and wider stakeholders to submit their ideas on how government can best encourage nature-positive best practice into energy infrastructure planning and development. Feedback from this exercise will allow government to better understand how we can integrate nature restoration through Clean Power 2030”.

We want Great British Energy to focus on its mission of driving clean energy deployment, but I have listened very carefully to what noble Lords have said today and I understand the point that noble Lords are making about the Crown Estate Bill. I assure noble Lords that we are going to reflect on this between Committee and Report.

[Viscount Trenchard (Con)]

My Lords, I thank my noble friend Lord Howell for his support for my amendment and all other noble Lords who referred to my amendment in the debate. I appreciated the whole debate, and I am grateful to the Minister for his thoughtful reply. There will be another opportunity to discuss the same kind of thing in a future group, of which he is aware, so I will have an opportunity to return to that. I beg leave to withdraw my amendment.

Financial Services and Markets Bill

Debate between Lord Hunt of Kings Heath and Viscount Trenchard

Committee stage
Wednesday 25th January 2023 Grand Committee

[Viscount Trenchard (Con)]

My Lords, I share the views of the noble Lord, Lord Sharkey, to a large extent, but I agree with my noble friend Lady Noakes that the question of parliamentary scrutiny is better dealt with when we come to that part of the Bill to which her amendments are tabled.

I declare my interest as a director of two investment companies, as stated in the register. On the whole, I welcome the Government’s amendments in this group and look forward to hearing my noble friend the Minister explain them. Insofar as they increase the powers of the regulators, I welcome the improved clarity and transparency, but we need to improve the method of scrutiny and degree of regulators’ accountability to Parliament, as I have said.

I support my noble friend Lady Noakes in her Amendments 244 and 245. While the task of reviewing, revoking and replacing retained EU financial services law is monumental, it is important that there be a time limit to this process. Ideally, it should be completed this year, because more than four years have passed since the passage of the withdrawal Act and more than two years since the end of the transition period. We have not acted as fast as we should perhaps have done in moving to exploit the opportunities available to make bold moves away from the cumbersome, expensive and anti-competitive regulatory regime that has progressively constrained the competitiveness of the City of London and its innate ability to innovate. There has been some inbuilt resistance to making any changes, and I am glad that this Bill takes some significant steps in that direction.

I would have preferred the Bill to be more radical and to require that certain EU regulations automatically be repealed without replacement, such as the whole regime around the alternative investment fund managers directive and its subordinate legislation. That directive was opposed by the whole City establishment and has served merely to divert new and innovative fund managers wishing to launch new products for professional investors away from the City to other jurisdictions. However, too little work has yet been done, and I think that my noble friend’s suggested latest revocation date of 2026 is a reasonable compromise. I look forward to discussing that later, and I hope the Government will accept my noble friend’s two amendments.

[Lord Hunt of Kings Heath (Lab)]

My Lords, I want to lend some support to the noble Lord, Lord Sharkey, for raising the issue of parliamentary scrutiny in relation to this clause and Schedule 1. Clause 1 and Schedule 1 are an extraordinary exercise in executive powers through regulations and the regulators. In a later debate some days down the line, we are coming on to that issue, but it is appropriate that we start this debate with a reminder to the Minister that the issue of parliamentary scrutiny is very important.

I just want to reflect on what the noble Lord, Lord Sharkey, said about regulations. The Minister will no doubt pray in aid the fact that Parliament has processes for dealing with regulations. In your Lordships’ House, praying against a negative SI leads to an affirmative debate, unlike in the other place, and we debate it in full—but to what end? I have tabled a Motion today in the Chamber relating to an affirmative Motion on a completely different issue, data use in the NHS. I have no doubt that we will have a very good debate, but the Government will just plough on without having to take account of any debate that has taken place.

Nuclear Safeguards Bill

Debate between Lord Hunt of Kings Heath and Viscount Trenchard

Committee: 1st sitting (Hansard): House of Lords
Thursday 22nd February 2018 Lords Chamber

[Viscount Trenchard]

Euratom is certainly approved by the IAEA as having adequate standards. My point is that Euratom has standards that go beyond the level required by other international nuclear partners, including Japan, the United States and Australia. My point is that it is therefore not necessary to comply with Euratom standards to comply fully with the safeguards regime—

[Lord Hunt of Kings Heath (Lab)]

Will the noble Viscount give way?

[Viscount Trenchard]

Could I not continue, because I have just been interrupted? I will perhaps give way to the noble Lord in a minute.

I turn to Amendment 2, tabled by the noble Lord, Lord Warner. He refers to the supply to the United Kingdom of medical radioisotopes and their use and disposal, so far as this depends on UK membership of Euratom. My understanding is that it does not depend on UK membership of Euratom. Sixty per cent of the United Kingdom’s isotope supply comes from the EU and 40% from non-EU countries—predominantly South Africa, I think. Both are imported into the UK under fast-track procedures, and there seems no reason why that should change, whether or not we are a member of Euratom.

It is clearly essential that we avoid a cliff edge in this field, and for that reason, I look forward to hearing what the Minister has to say about the Government’s intention to avoid one. Clearly, something which replicates the effect of continued membership of Euratom during a transition period would be the easiest way to achieve that, because it will not be possible in the time available before March 2019 to negotiate and have ratified by their legislatures the four essential nuclear co-operation agreements with the United States, Australia, Japan and Canada that are our minimum requirement.

I am now happy to give way to the noble Lord.

[Lord Hunt of Kings Heath]

I just want to come back to the noble Viscount’s key point, which is that IAEA standards are less than those of Euratom. In evidence to the Public Bill Committee in the other place, the deputy chief inspector of the Office for Nuclear Regulation, which will be taking over the non-proliferation safeguarding role from Euratom under government plans, said that the result in March 2019 will be that we move from Euratom standards to standards that will mean fewer inspections and less intensity of inspections. That is surely the argument—I think the noble Viscount was hinting at this when we debated this last night—for not insisting that we establish our own regulatory function in March 2019 but carry on in some kind of relationship with Euratom. Whether it is transition, associate membership or alignment—whatever you want to call it—we should essentially continue to use Euratom until, if we insist on leaving Euratom in the end, the ONR can signify that it is up to Euratom standards.