Employment: Rights
Debate between Lord Hunt of Kings Heath and Lord Marland
Lord Marland
I could not agree more with my noble friend. We should obviously look at this proposal. It will go through this House as it is going through the other place at the moment and we will have the opportunity to scrutinise what is currently a concept and put some straight edges on it, which this House always does so well. I could not agree more that it needs looking at very carefully. However, this is a voluntary scheme, as I have said, and it is surely in the best interests of corporate endeavour to have employees and employers working together as a scheme.
Lord Hunt of Kings Heath
My Lords, is it not a fact that one person’s volunteerism is another person’s bullying? Does the Minister agree that these plans are on a par with efforts now being made to disestablish the NHS Agenda for Change national pay scheme? Will he agree to look into the activities being undertaken by those who want to dismantle Agenda for Change and intervene to stop them?
Lord Marland
We have to be very careful about bandying around harsh words such as “bullying”. That is not reasonable. We have a voluntary agreement. Companies in my experience—I have a reasonable amount of experience—do best where both employees and employers co-operate. I was proud to be a founder shareholder of a business where well over 80% of the employees were shareholders. It meant that there was a community of interest and spirit of endeavour. We want to encourage that. It is incumbent on this Government to find ways of generating enterprise and a spirit of going forward together. This scheme does that admirably.
Energy: Carbon Capture and Storage
Debate between Lord Hunt of Kings Heath and Lord Marland
Lord Hunt of Kings Heath
To ask Her Majesty’s Government what is their response to the advice from the Committee on Climate Change to extend the carbon capture and storage competition to include gas demonstration projects.
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department of Energy and Climate Change (Lord Marland)
My Lords, we have previously stated that the Government will continue public sector investment in carbon capture and storage technology for four coal-fired power stations. The Committee on Climate Change has recommended that we give serious consideration to funding at least one gas CCS project as part of this programme. We are carefully evaluating whether a demonstration project on gas would prove beneficial and add value to the programme.
Lord Hunt of Kings Heath
I am grateful to the noble Lord for that response. Does he agree that given our indigenous reserves of coal and the fact that coal will be a prime energy product for many decades to come globally, and given the export potential of UK-led technology on CCS, in considering the Committee on Climate Change’s report and gas CCS, will he none the less ensure that there will continue to be a strong place for clean coal in this country?
Lord Marland
The noble Lord is quite right. Coal is a very important producer of power in this country. That is why our priority on CCS must be coal, because it is a very dirty material—more dirty than gas. I can assure the noble Lord that that will be our primary focus, despite the thoughts of the Committee on Climate Change.
Electricity and Gas (Carbon Emissions Reduction) (Amendment) Order 2010
Debate between Lord Hunt of Kings Heath and Lord Marland
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department of Energy and Climate Change (Lord Marland)
My Lords, I beg to move the Motion standing in my name on the Order Paper.
Lord Hunt of Kings Heath
My Lords, before the House moves to approve the Motion, perhaps I can raise a point with the Minister. This matter was discussed very fully in Grand Committee two days ago, but I draw the attention of the House to the Merits Committee’s report on the order which drew attention to the fact that the draft statutory instrument had been laid with a detailed impact assessment running to 77 pages. The committee reported that, given the speed with which the Government wished this SI to proceed, it has not had the opportunity to make any detailed assessment of it.
I thank the Merits Committee for its work and for its report. Of course, I accept that there are circumstances in which Governments need to process statutory instruments as quickly as possible, but it is important that the Merits Committee is given sufficient time to do its job effectively. I ask the noble Lord whether he can give an assurance that in future statutory instruments laid by his department will be laid in time for the committee to have the time that it needs to report fully to the House.
Lord Marland
My Lords, the Merits Committee chose not to draw the instrument to the special attention of the House but, as the noble Lord said, it included an overview paragraph. This statutory instrument was laid after 30 days of public consultation and the committee complained in its report that it had not had sufficient time, but we believe that this order is fundamental to keeping the pressure up on developing a low-carbon economy, and so we took those measures.
Electricity and Gas (Carbon Emissions Reduction) (Amendment) Order 2010
Debate between Lord Hunt of Kings Heath and Lord Marland
Lord Hunt of Kings Heath
We were not always able to agree with the noble Lord, Lord Jenkin, on specific proposals, but I do not think that I ever argued with him on the general principle. I realise that “The Judgment of Daniel” is facing me and that I must be very careful about how I respond, but I recall the noble Lord, Lord Reay, raising this very point in Grand Committee 12 months ago. I am absolutely convinced that if we are seeking to ensure that these measures are taken—and I do not mean just the measures that will have to be taken on energy saving, but more generally in terms of the energy strategy; no doubt we will discuss this tomorrow afternoon in relation to the Statement on energy—the more general information that can be provided to the public, the better.
My noble friend Lord Woolmer mentioned the scheme in Leeds in which whole housing areas were taken together. In the inner city in Birmingham we also had a scheme called “enveloping”. Essentially, the local authority renovated the whole structure of houses which might have been privately rented or owner occupied. That scheme was enormously effective and meant that in many inner city areas, instead of houses being knocked down, some of the social fabric of the areas was maintained. I have long thought that such an approach could be used in relation to energy saving. We will be very interested to hear the Minister give some indication of when he is likely to come forward with proposals. He mentioned the green deal and the forthcoming energy Bill; I would certainly welcome as much information as he can give about what is likely to be contained in them and when they are likely to come to your Lordships' House.
I remind the noble Lord of a comment made by the noble Baroness, Lady Wilcox, who was standing in my place on this side of the Room only 12 months ago. When we debated a previous order on this matter, she then referred to Conservative Party policy to grant an entitlement to householders for approved home energy works up to the value of £6,500. At the time, I estimated that a loan guarantee of up to £200 billion would be required of a Conservative Government. I would be interested to know whether thinking has moved on since then. We will look at this carefully, but it strikes me that at a time when they seem to have found it impossible to give a rather modest loan to Sheffield Forgemasters, they have been indulging themselves in schemes which would involve considerable amounts in loans. I should be interested in the noble Lord’s response to that.
Finally, I come to the question raised by the noble Lord, Lord Jenkin. Given the current economic circumstances, a particular focus must be the impact on poorer people and households. The order contains a specific amendment in relation to microgeneration which means that suppliers will be able to promote only microgeneration measures that are eligible under other microgeneration support mechanisms for promotion to super priority group households. The noble Lord, Lord Jenkin, asked for information about super priority households. The Explanatory Memorandum states at paragraph 7.4:
“All microgeneration uplifts will be withdrawn from April 2011”.
Can the Minister confirm that this applies only in circumstances arising in this order—in other words, it does not apply generally to the other microgeneration support mechanisms embracing feed-in tariffs and renewable heat incentives? Some clarification would be welcome.
Lord Marland
My Lords, as always, it is a great pleasure to enter into a debate with such eminent gentlemen who know so much about the subject. Perhaps I may deal with the points raised in consecutive order. I note the comments of the noble Lords, Lord Jenkin and Lord Hunt, that this order should have gone through the Merits Committee. You’re damned if you do and you’re damned if you don’t. It is worth pointing out that the Joint Committee of both Houses that scrutinises statutory instruments did not think that it needed drawing to the special attention of both Houses. This legislation is in operation and all we are doing is seeking to extend its lifetime. We have had three months of public consultation; some 102 companies have been consulted, as have the big six and their agencies. The whole point here is to keep up the pressure on an existing programme to build the bridge between now and the green deal.
This programme is being filled quickly—probably quicker than we predicted—and we now have an opportunity to keep up the pressure. It would be wholly wrong to tear up the current programme while it is in force and particularly while we are planning the green deal to which the noble Lord, Lord Jenkin, referred. We completely understand the bureaucratic and complex nature of the current arrangements, and I give the noble Lord the commitment that the green deal will seek to address that. As regards his point on difficulty of suppliers, that is a practical issue. Some people have no difficulty with them, while others do. We hear positive remarks and I am sorry that he experienced difficulty. Perhaps if he joins the super priority pension group, it might be a different thing altogether.
Lord Marland
The answer is that they may or they may not. There is no fixed method by which to use the commercial levers that are available to them, as you would expect. I hope that that answers my noble friend’s question.
My coalition friend, the noble Lord, Lord Teverson, rightly mentioned that he has changed his place and now has to look at a new picture. I agree that it is nice to see a different prospect and I do not have to work out whose foot that is, lying there wearing the sandal; hopefully, the intelligence of the noble Lords, Lord Hunt of Kings Heath and Lord Woolmer, will work that out for us. I certainly know who wears the trousers in our household, but I have never worked out who wears the sandals.
He mentioned the counterintuitive nature of the current CERT arrangement. I agree with him that it is counterintuitive; again, the green deal—sorry to bang on—should help to cope with some of that counterintuitivity.
The noble Lord asked what the uplifts are, compared with existing targets. The pro rata extension of the reduction of 108 million lifetime tonnes of carbon dioxide represents a 3 per cent reduction of household emissions from the non-traded sector in 2013. I hope that that deals with his question.
The noble Lord, Lord Woolmer, dealt with what the noble Lord, Lord Hunt, calls “enveloping”. I was wryly pleased that he asked that question; it was the first question that I asked our officials when this was brought to my attention. The answer is that it is the best way of coping with this, and it is the most cost-effective way for the supplier to deal with small groups in certain areas. We should encourage this. I take on board fully what the noble Lord said, but I am amused that we should have thought of the same thing together. I am grateful to him.
The noble Lord, Lord Hunt, whose baton I am merely picking up on this issue—I am glad I did not get as hard a time as I might otherwise have done—went on about cost. With all due respect to him and to others, there are more than 11 pages in the document outlining the costs. I know that the breakdown is complicated and split into various measures, but I commend it to noble Lords because it is comprehensive, and I am grateful to my noble friend Lord Taylor for talking me through it.
Lord Hunt of Kings Heath
The RIA, like all RIAs produced by his department, is comprehensive. However, what is difficult to get out of it, and what would have been helpful in the Explanatory Memorandum, is a succinct summary of the likely overall impact on costs.
Lord Marland
I take on board the noble Lord’s point. I addressed the issue of costs earlier. They are not significant in the context of the average bill. The noble Lord mentioned Sheffield Forgemasters. I have a private bet—as this is only round one of three rounds in the next three days—on how many times he will mention that. A lot of discussion and water have gone under the bridge. I confirm that the feed-in tariff will not be affected and I hope that that will give him comfort.
I hope that I have answered the questions that have been put by noble Lords and addressed the issues that they have raised. The principal theme of the order is to keep up the pressure on installation suppliers, to maintain employment and to deliver carbon reduction. It will also help us to bridge the gap between now and the green deal, which is a fundamental part of the Government’s policy. The green deal will bring forward a new and ambitious approach to driving home energy efficiency which will not require up-front payment, but will benefit from the repayment of the costs of work over time through the savings of the Bill.
Ahead of this change, it is essential that we do everything that we can to maintain and, where possible, quicken the pace of energy efficiency movements, and to increase the focus on lower-income pensioners and family households. We can make a difference to household energy bills this winter if we act now. Therefore, I hope that noble Lords will support the refocused CERT scheme so that householders, and the UK more broadly, can reap the benefit of energy-reducing measures as soon as possible. I commend the order to the Committee.
Climate Change
Debate between Lord Hunt of Kings Heath and Lord Marland(13 years, 10 months ago)
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Lord Marland
My Lords, I thank the noble Lord for inviting me to comment on the Hartwell report as I have studied it, which gives me a few brownie points. It raises a number of points of interest, some of which we agree with and some of which we do not. Among other things, it draws attention to the need for energy efficiency, which is high on our list of priorities, and investment in non-carbon energy supplies, which again is high on our list of priorities and is hard to argue against. A lot of things in the report were agreeable but some were not. We shall consider them in the recess and bring them together in a debate in the autumn.
Lord Hunt of Kings Heath
My Lords, in reading the report has the noble Lord looked at the section relating to the committee’s concern about the delays in the development of wind farms due to delays in the planning system? He will know that the previous Government established the Infrastructure Planning Commission as a way through this. Why are the Government now abolishing the IPC? Will that not bring about the very concerns about which the committee has complained; that is, insecurity and indecision inhibiting the development of wind energy in this country?
Lord Marland
I am very sorry that the noble Lord, Lord Hunt, was not present at yesterday’s Question Time—of course, we missed him—when that question was posed by noble Lords on his Benches. We disbanded the IPC because it was not making enough progress on planning. As the noble Lord rightly said, planning is critical. However, it has been slow and logjammed. We intend to change that.
Energy: Belarus-Russia Gas Dispute
Debate between Lord Hunt of Kings Heath and Lord Marland
Lord Hunt of Kings Heath
To ask Her Majesty’s Government what assessment they have made of the impact of the Belarus-Russia gas dispute on gas supplies to Europe.
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department of Energy and Climate Change (Lord Marland)
My Lords, the Russia-Belarus gas dispute had minimal impact on European gas supplies, though flows to Lithuania reduced, as did pipeline pressure to Poland on 23 June. However, no customers were affected. The EU-Russia early warning mechanism, strengthened after the January 2009 Russia-Ukraine gas dispute, was activated and the Commission led EU engagement with both parties to urge a swift resolution. Any such dispute is regrettable but we welcome its swift resolution before EU customers were affected.
Lord Hunt of Kings Heath
My Lords, I am grateful to the noble Lord and for the speedy resolution of the dispute. Does he accept that this dispute and the Russia-Ukraine difficulties show that Europe needs co-ordinated action on gas security? Can he say what progress has been made in the development of the southern corridor, which brings gas to Europe from the Caspian but is not dependent on Russia?
Lord Marland
My Lords, this gives me a great opportunity to praise the former Minister who, through his work on the EU security of gas supply regulation, helped to enhance the resilience of the emergency plans and provided cross-border support of supply. We look forward to his plans being adopted in the autumn. I am grateful for the work that he has done—as, I am sure, is the rest of the House. The general point is that the UK is not dependent upon the Caspian Sea or Russia for its gas supply: 65 per cent of our gas comes from our own domestic fields, 20 per cent from Norway and the remainder from other international sources. We have reviewed this situation in the light of what we have just seen and I am confident that we can support our customers to the full.
Climate Change: UN Framework Convention
Debate between Lord Hunt of Kings Heath and Lord Marland
Lord Hunt of Kings Heath
To ask Her Majesty’s Government what approach they intend to take at the next Conference of Parties to the United Nations Framework Convention on Climate Change.
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Energy and Climate Change (Lord Marland)
My Lords, the Government are committed to working towards an ambitious global climate deal that will limit emissions. We will be working with our international partners, both in the European Union and bilaterally, to secure practical progress in tackling climate change by the time of the next conference of parties in Cancun in November this year.
Lord Hunt of Kings Heath
My Lords, I am very grateful to the noble Lord for that response. Will he confirm that the Government acknowledge that the scientific evidence is clear that unless we mitigate the worst impact of climate change, countries of the world face catastrophe, and therefore an international agreement in Cancun is essential?
Lord Marland
My Lords, rarely has so much political capital been spent in trying to reach that agreement in Copenhagen, so it is a bit much to ask that it will happen in Cancun. We are optimistic that, unlike the England football team, we might get a result in South Africa in 2011, but, as the noble Lord will know, we need to be patient and realistic and to develop a dialogue with countries that do not row in tune with us at the moment.
Energy: Nuclear Power
Debate between Lord Hunt of Kings Heath and Lord Marland
Lord Hunt of Kings Heath
To ask Her Majesty’s Government what proposals they have for the development of nuclear-powered generation in the United Kingdom.
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Energy and Climate Change (Lord Marland)
I thank the noble Lord for his Question. The Government are committed to allowing the construction of new nuclear power stations, provided that they are subject to the normal planning process for major projects and receive no public subsidy. The Government will continue to work through the Office for Nuclear Development to drive progress in all areas needed to bring this about.
Lord Hunt of Kings Heath
My Lords, I am very grateful to the noble Lord for his Answer. I congratulate him on his appointment and wish him every success in the future. Given that the loan that the previous Government proposed for Sheffield Forgemasters, a critical part of the nuclear supply industry, is now in jeopardy; and given that the coalition agreement sets out that a Conservative Minister will propose the energy national policy statement to Parliament, a Liberal Democrat spokesman will oppose and Liberal Democrat MPs will abstain, can the Minister give the necessary assurance to an industry that is now uncertain about the Government’s intentions?