Schools Bill [HL]

Debate between Lord Hunt of Kings Heath and Lord Addington

Committee stage
Wednesday 8th June 2022 Lords Chamber

[Lord Hunt of Kings Heath (Lab)]

Does the noble Lord recall that the last time this House intervened on a statutory instrument was in relation to working families’ tax credits? We moved an amendment to delay its introduction, which was passed, and of course that led to the Government withdrawing their proposal, but this House was threatened with abolition by the Government of the time.

[Lord Addington (LD)]

I do remember that, but as a hereditary Peer I am probably more familiar than the noble Lord with the threat of abolition. That whetted axe been swinging around my head for a good few years; I dodged it once.

There is this idea that Parliament should not interfere in this process because that is naughty and bad. I hope that the Government will at least allow us to have some process where this is discussed or to at least point out how this process of shining a little light—and indeed pouring a little water, if we may take a plant analogy—on these things will work. How will we know what we are getting?

On the other amendments in this group, I am learning not to prejudge the noble Lord, Lord Baker. The interesting thing about certain schools and establishments set up outside the system is why they are brought in. The noble Lord nods at me; I will take that as a win.

On the final clause stand part notice in this group and the reports of the Delegated Powers and Regulatory Reform Committee and the Constitution Committee, I hope we can get a little further into those. I do not think I have ever been involved with a Bill which has had this type of reception. It is pretty appalling that the Government have done this. I therefore hope that the Minister will take this opportunity to tell us how the Government will make sure they know what is coming. If there is regulation and stuff that I have not seen where we can learn what is coming—it is not in the Bill—let us know where and point us in the right direction. Show us how it will be easily accessible and how we can have an informed debate that starts here and goes outside, and how it feeds in too. That, at the very least, is required if we continue to change the way the system works by regulation. I beg to move.

[Lord Baker of Dorking (Con)]

My Lords, I will speak to Amendment 27A. This speech will be very short. The amendment is defensive because, if Clause 1 continues to be part of the Bill when it comes back on Report, I will have to move it again, but of course if it disappears this amendment will fall. The Government realised half way through preparing the Bill that by giving such powers to the Secretary of State which have no checks or balances in them and no requirements for consultation, a maverick Secretary of State could abolish grammar schools and selection and could intervene with religious schools with regard to the amount of worship that they have. I am shocked by that. The noble Baroness, Lady Chapman, raised what would happen if we had Jacob Rees-Mogg as the Secretary of State for Education. I shudder at the prospect. Similarly, what would happen if you had a Corbynite Secretary of State? I shudder at that prospect as well, because the powers of direction are absolutely overwhelming.

Protections were introduced for grammar schools and faith schools because they were so different, and I think the schools I have been promoting are sufficiently different as well. University technical colleges are totally different from a normal school. Take, for example, their curriculum for 14 to 16. Our youngsters—the girls as well as the boys—will spend two days a week making things with their hands, designing things on computers, making projects which local employers bring in or visiting companies. That is totally different. A Secretary of State with these untrammelled powers could simply stop them doing that and therefore destroy the distinction of the school, so this is only a defensive amendment if the Government do not see sense.

I must congratulate the Minister on her reply. As she recognised, no one has spoken in full-hearted support of the Bill. The right reverend Prelate came close: he gave it a sort of half-blessing, but not a full one. Everyone else who has spoken was highly critical of it, so I hope this amendment will not be necessary when Clause 1 is withdrawn.

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[Lord Hunt of Kings Heath (Lab)]

My Lords, I lend my support to the noble Baroness, Lady Brinton, on Amendment 8 and to my noble friend on Amendment 37. This issue about the mental health of students and pupils is very important. I have no doubt that the Minister will argue that mental health is subsumed within “health”, and therefore that there is no need for this, but sometimes you do need to give absolute clarity to parts of society that mental health must be a greater priority than before, and this is a very useful way of doing it.

The Minister was involved in the passage of the Health and Care Act of blessed memory, which some of us were involved in. It struck me that when we were talking about the membership of ICPs and ICBs—integrated care partnerships and integrated care boards—I do not think we explicitly discussed whether the education sector would be around the table. Could the Minister look into whether there is some way of encouraging that the education sector is listened to? It seems rather like the police service in that it is being asked to pick up a lot of the issues that arise partly because our mental health services are so fragile at the moment, particularly for young people and adolescents, as we know. I do not wish to add more burden to heads and schools but this will bear thinking about. I hope there will be some collaboration between the Minister’s department and the Department of Health.

[Lord Addington (LD)]

My Lords, I will speak to the two amendments in this group that have my name on them, Amendments 9 and 11. Both deal with smaller aspects of this, although we have a big report coming through on special educational needs, in which I know the noble Baroness is active.

I would like to know where and how, in this envisaged system—or perhaps let us call it a wished-for system; let us not give it that degree of solidity—special educational needs will fit in. At the moment, if there is a priority that comes above them, they tend to get squashed going down. For instance, there is an ongoing row about systematic synthetic phonics, which is the preferred way to teach English but does not work that well for many dyslexics. In addition, people with attention deficit disorder do not like it; it is a different way of working. You therefore have to work smarter, or in a different way, to get the best results out of those groups in a basic interaction. There will be other examples; for instance, mathematics is also covered by this, because you have to have different learning patterns. Dyslexics like me have different learning processes in our heads, which work slightly differently from those of the majority of people.

That is not insurmountable; there are ways around it and lots have been found, but you have to do it. If you have one way of doing this, there will be problems for those groups who do not have those learning patterns. I was speaking only about small numbers there but maybe half of those with identified special educational needs would probably be covered by these groups already. There are others with more complex patterns. The Government will need to work differently. How will the recommendations of the review work through and counter other considerations? If the noble Baroness can give us some idea of the Government’s thinking at the moment, I will be grateful.

On extracurricular activity—I would say this, would I not?—the fact of the matter is that sport is one of the best ways of improving mental health. It releases all the right chemicals in your body. Basically, it is a chemical treatment for mental health—end of. It reduces stress and tension, as does the correct use of special educational needs support. If you have less to worry about, you are less stressed and less likely to experience a trigger point for a mental health condition. How will these things be worked in? What safeguards do activities have in these areas—and others, if the noble Baroness wishes to expand on that? Is Committee a discussion? We need an idea of how, when you have to work differently to get the best out of the system, you will do it to get to the positions and the approach coming through in the rest of the Bill. How is it working and how will you make those small changes? Some will be big structural ones.

Talking about extracurricular activities such as sport, music and drama, one of the big things the Government should do to make sure that people carry on doing those things is to link the activities within the school with those who do them outside on an amateur basis. There are very well-established models, some of which have worked and some of which have been removed but which worked quite well. How is this all working and how is it going forward? If the Minister could give us a little idea of the Government’s thinking on that, that would be helpful, if not for this Bill then certainly for future debates.

Birmingham Commonwealth Games Bill [HL]

Debate between Lord Hunt of Kings Heath and Lord Addington

Committee stage & Committee: 1st sitting (Hansard) & Committee: 1st sitting (Hansard): House of Lords
Tuesday 25th February 2020 Lords Chamber

[Lord Hunt of Kings Heath]

Indeed. I would not bet much on his chances, I have to say, but there is a growing movement for some kind of tourism levy. I am pretty sure that at some point it will be agreed to. I think this would be a great opportunity to do it now.

[Lord Addington (LD)]

This is an interesting group of amendments about the funding of the Games. My initial reaction was that it is an interesting idea, but how does it affect these Games? My initial response to the amendment tabled by the noble Lord, Lord Hunt, was that it is an interesting idea but not here and now because the Government told me they have underwritten the Games. We will probably have a little more transparency and more of an idea about how that underwriting takes place in a few minutes’ time, but making these Games a success is the priority in these discussions. We will not solve local government finance in a Bill with this Long Title. It was suggested to me that the department wants us to pass this amendment so that it can fight with the Treasury. I know where my money would be on that one—it would not go beyond three rounds.

What are we going to do about this? We are going to make sure we know what is happening so we can get on and do the Games and do them well. If we get it wrong—remember it is a Bill about the Games—we will lose something that we have built up a huge amount of credit for. We can do these big events well. We have a track record. We are coming in late so we cannot have the schemes and imaginative discussions we had on the Olympic Games. We are the white knights, the rescuers, coming in to make sure the wonderful, second-biggest multi-games event on the planet functions again. We are doing a good thing. If we try and Christmas-tree too many things on it, we will get into trouble. If the Government are making very clear that they are underwriting the Games and Birmingham City Council knows what the relationship is—whether it is a loan or a gift—then we are in good shape. However, we have to know.

My amendment is designed to know what packages can be done. My noble friend described it as imaginative. It is not. It simply uses examples of what we have done before. We used the National Lottery for the Olympics. Do we use some form of lottery now? Do we use something based around it? If we place a series of handcuffs on or stumbling blocks in front of the organising committee, we risk throwing the baby out with the bath water. Let us get on with it. We have come in late. We are doing a good thing. It will not be perfect. We will not have the indulgence of discussing and preparing things like we had for the Olympics, where the Bill was there before we won the bid.

Using tried and tested ideas might be the better way forward. I suggest in future that local government should know what contributions it can make, how much it can raise and what responsibilities it has. Doing a study now will help it in the future because we do not want this to be the last thing to be put on. We do not want something getting in the way of us winning hosting, for example, the soccer World Cup. Let us make sure we have clarity. I hope at the end of this discussion we will have a little more of it.

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[Lord Hunt of Kings Heath]

My Lords, I echo my noble friend’s point that we often debate the use of school facilities and bemoan the fact that they are in use for a disappointing percentage of time in the average week. However, we must face the financial reality that school governing bodies face at the moment. In Birmingham, a lot of primary schools are now closing at lunchtime on Fridays because they simply cannot find any other way to balance the books. The idea that the education system of schools in Birmingham can somehow magic up the ability to open their facilities for hours on end, particularly in the summer holidays, will not happen. I am sure that the Minister’s department wishes very much for schools to do more, but we have somehow to find a way to give them the ability to do it.

I hope also, although the amendments before us do not mention health particularly, that there will be a way to find an opportunity for health bodies in Birmingham to take part in some of the discussions. The noble Baroness, Lady Grey-Thompson, has talked a little about young people’s health and well-being, but I am afraid that Birmingham’s obesity levels are very high. I have always hoped that the Commonwealth Games might be a catalyst for us to try to do something about it. The health service needs to step up to the plate, because its enthusiastic involvement in legacy planning could be very important. Health interests and sport interests do not always mix easily, partly because people in health worry that things such as the Commonwealth Games stress the joy of competitive sport at the expense of everyone. I understand that, but they can sometimes be very precious about it. I still believe that the two can run together, but opening the door to health interests now would be a good way to see whether they can be round the table and proactive in promoting legacy. The noble Lord, Lord Moynihan, put it so well: this time we should ensure that we get legacy right.

[Lord Addington]

My Lords, I will make a few comments. First, on my amendment, I think we covered part of the international co-ordination and spreading the events in the previous debate, but if the Minister has more to say on that I will of course listen gladly. The main thrust coming through here is represented by the noble Lord, Lord Hunt, effectively asking whether the Government will enact their own sports policy properly, which involves the department of health co-ordinating with the Department for Education and local government to make sure we have facilities to get out there and participate in grass-roots sport. Competitive sport is there at grass-roots level; it is just not as well done. I pray in aid my own sporting career. I am afraid that I missed Second Reading because I was playing rugby against the French Parliament. Yes, we lost. I recommend parliamentary rugby to anybody who wants to see the detail of the game, because we are so slow that you do not miss anything.

A good sports policy alone does not create champions. They often come by freak and fluke, and the very lucky get through. A good system will leave a supply of them. A really good sports policy will provide second-team and third-team players for small clubs and address the health problems, et cetera. People saying, “Wow, isn’t he great, let’s look at him on TV”, but then sitting down with beers and chips and saying, “Let’s try another channel” does not help very much. We need to get people out there to take part.

Perhaps we should be set up differently, but schools are a great facility. I started my club career playing on a school pitch that was lent to a small club that had just got itself a ground. We came through after 10 or 15 years of using school pitches. We must not stop that spontaneous growth of sport. We have a tradition of organising ourselves at a far higher level than any other country in Europe. Doing it ourselves means a cheaper facility. We should help and support that, as these amendments would do, enacting a sports policy which says, “These bits of government should come together”. Surely if something as exciting as a Commonwealth Games cannot allow us to do that, we really are missing a trick.

Education and Adoption Bill

Debate between Lord Hunt of Kings Heath and Lord Addington

Thursday 5th November 2015 Grand Committee

[Lord Addington]

My Lords, this is an attempt to try to gain a little more clarity about the role of the regional schools commissioners. The aim of this amendment is to provide them with uniform criteria. I could expand at considerable length but this issue has been raised in the Commons Select Committee. We just want to know what criteria these individuals will follow. They undoubtedly have extreme merit and are doing a tremendously good job. I am afraid that I was not able to meet them on Monday. What criteria will they follow? Will the same standards apply across the country? It would be absurd if commissioners worked to different standards literally just across a line. So could we have some idea about what they are doing and can we hear that now? It will go into Hansard and we will have a little more guidance. If there is no way of applying uniform criteria, we have a real problem. I am assuming that the Government know how this is to be achieved—because, if not, there will be a big hole. I hope that there is no big hole. I beg to move.

[Lord Hunt of Kings Heath]

My Lords, my Amendment 12 is in this group. The point the noble Lord has raised is highly appropriate. We want assurances about a consistency of approach throughout the country.

My own amendment is probing and I would like to have it confirmed that the function of the RSC can be carried out by a combined authority, as defined in Clause 8 of the Cities and Local Government Devolution Bill as it left your Lordships’ House a few months ago. If my reading of the Bill is right, can the Minister say whether it is intended in any circumstances that the RSC function would indeed be given to a combined authority? If not, perhaps he could say why not.

The Minister will be aware that the Cities and Local Government Devolution Bill gives a combined authority extremely wide powers; for example, the function of the police and crime commissioner and the entire commissioning and provision of health and social care can be devolved to the combined authority. Indeed, any function of a public authority in the area of the combined authority can be devolved to the combined authority. The definition of a public authority is very wide and includes a Minister of the Crown or government department. My reading therefore is that the functions of the RSC could very easily be given to the combined authority.

I find it interesting that in Greater Manchester—which, with Cornwall, is a pioneer of the combined authority concept—it has already been established in a memorandum of understanding between the Government and the combined authorities that health and social care will be devolved in their entirety to the combined authority. Obviously, I know more about health than education but there are great similarities. They are two essentially national services, locally delivered. Ministers are accountable to Parliament for their overall performance. Money is voted by Parliament for their funding.

If you look at the Explanatory Notes of the Cities and Local Government Devolution Bill as it left your Lordships’ House, it is interesting that clearly the core purpose of a combined authority is to boost growth and the local economy. If health and social care are considered to be part of that, why on earth is education not, given the Government’s own concerns that young people are leaving our schools system without sufficient skills to go into employment? I cannot think of a more closely related service than education to the economic prospects of a locality. The Explanatory Notes mention skills but are silent on education. I am assuming that the Department for Education has opted out of this. I would be fascinated to know why.

I would have thought that in some circumstances the combined authority or the mayor could easily perform the role of the RSC. As we have such a democratic deficit in education now, it would be one way of taking that—and I have listened to what noble Lords have said about the quality of RSCs and the work that they do—but putting it back into some form of local accountability. In the end this accountability issue will have to be addressed. But overall, in trying to ensure consistency of approach and linking RSCs back into some kind of democratic process at local level, the noble Lord, Lord Addington, and I are at one on this.

Health: Deaf People

Debate between Lord Hunt of Kings Heath and Lord Addington

Monday 31st March 2014 Lords Chamber

[Lord Hunt of Kings Heath (Lab)]

My Lords, I am very grateful to my noble friend Lord Ponsonby for his initiative and his excellent speech. I declare my interest as chair of an NHS foundation trust, a consultant and trainer with Cumberlege Connections and president of GS1.

Parliamentary debates about the quality of public services to deaf people are all too infrequent. Therefore, like the noble Baroness, Lady Howe, I welcome the opportunity to put that right tonight. As noble Lords have said, it is particularly opportune because of the publication on 25 March of this excellent report by the deaf health charity SignHealth. I was very privileged to speak at the conference held on 25 March to launch the report.

As my noble friend said, the report makes very sobering reading. He went through some of the details, but the headline results of issues in relation to deaf people in the health service—underdiagnosis, poorer treatment, poorer communication and lack of accessible health information—are a salutary wake-up call to us all. As the noble Baroness, Lady Howe, said, this has been reinforced by some interesting work by local Healthwatches, which we were sent over the weekend. The noble Baroness referred to Kirklees Healthwatch, but I also notice work in York, Wakefield, Staffordshire, Enfield, Islington and Stockport. All of those local Healthwatches are doing good work in their areas. I hope that the Government will listen to what Healthwatch is saying and act on some of its recommendations and proposals.

My noble friend referred to a number of recommendations made by SignHealth to try to turn the situation around, such as communications agreements for each deaf person coming into contact with the health service. It is surely a sensible recommendation that they should be able to book appointments online using SMS text to communicate with services. Also, health information needs to be more accessible in other formats, including British Sign Language and subtitles. Importantly, there is the recommendation on psychological therapies, which ought to be available to deaf people in British Sign Language nationwide. It has been reported to us that Ministers have turned that recommendation down. I would be grateful if the Minister could update the House on that. If Ministers have turned it down, does she think that that is consistent with the Equality Act duty?

I want to ask the Minister about this more generally. She knows that individual National Health Service bodies and the department’s arm’s-length bodies have public sector equality duties under Section 149 of the Equality Act 2010. This duty requires public authorities to have due regard to eliminate discrimination between those with and without a protected characteristic and to advance equality of opportunity between those with and without a protected characteristic. My understanding is that that means removing or minimising disadvantages suffered by people in protected groups and considering steps to meet the needs of protected groups where they are different from those of other people. Public authorities are also under a duty to make reasonable adjustments for disabled people to make sure that a disabled person can use a service as close as reasonably possible to the standard usually offered to non-disabled people. From the SignHealth work, it is pretty apparent that for many deaf people that duty is not being effectively applied. Again, what action are the Government taking to monitor the implementation of the Act’s duty and what action will they take if it is clear that public authorities are failing in that duty?

We have had some debate about the necessity of interpreting services. I have been contacted by a general practitioner who is particularly concerned about this issue. She tells me that there is currently confusion in the NHS about the funding for interpreters since the reorganisation and replacement of primary care trusts by clinical commissioning groups. My understanding is that in many parts of the country primary care trusts funded interpreting services but, since they were abolished, there seem to be two problems. One is that clinical commissioning groups have not always been prepared to continue to fund those services. Secondly, there has been the issue of how GPs might obtain funding from NHS England, which is the body that they are now in contract with, for interpreting services within their own surgeries. I understand that, while at first some GPs were successful, there are indications that funding is now being withdrawn. That means that GPs will have to pay for interpreting services out of their practice expenses. Again, I would be interested in what the Minister has to say about that.

The noble Lord, Lord Borwick, made an interesting speech and I certainly take his point about literacy and the achievement of the cochlear implant programme. However, I was delighted with the official recognition of British Sign Language some years ago. I recall the bad old days when some deaf children were forbidden to use sign language at school. We have all moved on from that and, for those deaf people who use sign language, it is important that interpreters are available in the NHS. I also share his concern—he raised the point that we debated in October—about whether enough people are coming forward to train as teachers of deaf children. That is a very important point.

I very much take the point raised by the noble Lord, Lord Addington, about online interpretation. He was really saying that that solution was capable of a much wider interpretation than simply talking about deaf people themselves. We must surely be on the edge of a revolution in communications and the use of IT in the health service. This could clearly bring great advantages for many people who find communications difficult at the moment, but I do not think it takes away the responsibility of people in the health service to improve the way they do things now. It is very clear that some deaf people are finding services very inaccessible indeed.

[Lord Addington]

I totally agree with the noble Lord: it is another way of skinning the cat—that is all.

[Lord Hunt of Kings Heath]

The NHS has a long way to go to use the technology that the noble Lord has put forward. I welcome the suggestions that he made.

My noble friend Lord Ponsonby asked the Minister a number of questions. I would like to put forward a number of proposals for the Government to consider. For many years, the outcome of health services for deaf people has been overlooked. We are talking about a relatively small group of people—people who inevitably find communication difficult. Will the Government consider the appointment of a national champion—perhaps a national clinical director—to champion health services for deaf people? The clinical directors that the department and NHS England have taken on have been outstanding in giving leadership in relation to a number of clinical areas. I wonder whether, for deaf people in particular, having a champion at national level could help disseminate information and really bang heads together to ensure that much more focus is given to the needs of these people.

Secondly, will the Minister encourage Healthwatch to continue to build on its work to give specific focus on services for deaf people?

Thirdly, will the Minister encourage health and well-being boards at local level to pick up our concerns about across-the-board services? The noble Lord, Lord Addington, made a very strong point about the role of the Minister for the Disabled at national level. At local level, the health and well-being boards could clearly carry out that same function.

Fourthly, will the Minister encourage the development of clinical networks in each local health area so that there is co-ordination of services across primary, secondary and tertiary care as regards the needs of deaf people?

Finally, will the Minister institute regular meetings between deaf organisations and the NHS within each local health area so that there can be proper discussion and debate about the needs of deaf people?

This is a very important debate and I am sure that we all look forward to a positive response from the Minister.