Health and Care Bill

Debate between Lord Hunt of Kings Heath and Baroness Fookes

Lords Hansard - Part 2 & Committee stage
Monday 24th January 2022 Lords Chamber

[Lord Hunt of Kings Heath (Lab)]

My Lords, it has been rather a long wait, though I doubt that we shall spend as much time on this group as we did on the last. I do not pretend that the issue of procurement is as important as that of the workforce; none the less, when we come to Clause 70 there are some very important considerations.

I should say that, although my own two amendments are narrowly focused, in opening this debate I must register with the Minister concerns about the open-ended nature of the power to be given to Ministers under this clause. In essence, through secondary legislation, the whole procurement regime can be changed at the whim of an executive order. Services could be privatised or outsourced or whatever Ministers choose to do with them subject to regulations. It seems rather extraordinary that we are taking out the marketisation sections from current legislation only to replace them with an open-ended power and a procurement regime when we simply do not know what it will be.

I remind the Minister that the Delegated Powers Committee has been very clear that Clause 70 needs very careful attention. As it says,

“initial consultation has been carried out by NHS England on the content of the”

procurement regime, but

“full analysis has not been completed and there has not been time to produce a more developed proposal.”

The Delegated Powers Committee concluded:

“We do not accept that the inclusion of regulation-making powers should be a cover for inadequately developed policy.”


I hope that the Minister, when he winds up the debate, will say something more about this and how the Government intend to respond. I think it very unlikely that we will let this Bill leave this House with this clause unaltered. Indeed, I note that the noble Lord, Lord Lansley, intends to oppose that Clause 70 stand part of the Bill.

My two amendments are probably the easiest that the Minister will have to deal with in this group and I hope that, for once, he will just get up and say that he accepts them both because they are very sensible and helpful to the way in which one wishes to see the NHS develop commissioning arrangements at the local level. The first, Amendment 93, requires NHS England and integrated care boards to consider the impact of their decisions on the diversity of provision for health and social care services, particularly social enterprises and charities.

I just want to talk about social enterprises: they are set up with a social mission and deliver that mission with all the income that they receive. Over the past 20 years, they have become an ever more important part of delivery of healthcare services. My understanding, from Social Enterprise UK, is that there are 15,000 social enterprises delivering health and care services in this country and that there is very strong evidence to suggest that these organisations are very good at what they do—often better than the alternatives. Indeed, according to a review of public service mutuals, a form of social enterprise, commissioned by DCMS in 2019, these organisations are developing high levels of productivity and better outcomes than their peers and the private sector. Their productivity has increased 10 times faster than that of the rest of the public sector over the past decade. Why? They have done it through innovation: by listening to communities and focusing on their social mission, social enterprises have been able to prepare to make changes to service delivery that other providers have been unwilling to do. As a consequence, a report in 2020 by the King’s Fund described social enterprises as

“‘engines of innovation’ within health and care”.

The Bill as it stands does not provide any duty, responsibilities or guidance for integrated care systems or NHS England to consider social enterprises within their activity. My understanding is that, because we already have these shadow ICBs, it is being interpreted at local level that there is not a future for social enterprises within local systems. There is a risk that decisions are now being made by these shadow organisations, which have no statutory being at all, that there will be a reduced role for these social enterprises in the future. That would be a tragedy, and I must ask the Minister to look at my amendment. It is very innocuous: all it asks ICSs and the NHS to do is to consider the impact of their decisions on a wider provider lattice. He could go further. It would be very simple for a message to be sent down the service from this debate to say that they got it wrong about social enterprises and they should indeed be thinking of commissioning more services in the future from there.

My Amendment 211 is linked to it. It deals with social value and how they should be embedded into procurement processes by integrated care boards. The definition of social value is the process by which public bodies seek to maximise the additional social, environmental and economic outcomes of the money that they spend. The coalition Government in 2012 supported the passage of the Public Services (Social Value) Act 2012. The adoption of the Act in the NHS has been very patchy indeed. I shall not delay the Committee by going into the details, but it is very disappointing. All my amendment would do is put a simple duty on NHS England to create guidance and ensure that social value is clearly understood across the system. It would be only guidance: it surely could not be a problem for the Government to endorse their own policy on social value in the NHS. I hope that the Minister will be sympathetic. I beg to move.

[The Deputy Chairman of Committees (Baroness Fookes) (Con)]

The noble Lord, Lord Howarth, is taking part remotely and I now invite him to speak.

Health and Care Bill

Debate between Lord Hunt of Kings Heath and Baroness Fookes

Lords Hansard - Part 2 & Committee stage
Tuesday 18th January 2022 Lords Chamber

[Lord Hunt of Kings Heath (Lab)]

My Lords, I have a number of amendments in this group concerning Healthwatch and, although it is important, I shall attempt to be brief.

We debated this, of course, in the Health and Social Care Bill 2012. I remember the noble Lord, Lord Patel, led a debate in which he called for the national Healthwatch to be made independent. He said then that embedding Healthwatch in England in the CQC was a mistake. I agreed with him then and I agree with him now. I would argue to the Government that there would be a big advantage in making Healthwatch fully independent. Of course, I am also concerned about local Healthwatch, to make sure it has enough influence in the new system as well.

It is right to pay tribute to the work of Healthwatch. I think it has done a good job since it has been established. Recent reports of national Healthwatch have been about access to dental care, on which I have an Oral Question in a week or two’s time. It undertook a very interesting analysis of the Government’s social care plans compared with proposals, and compared that with what people had told Healthwatch would make social care better.

Locally, my own Healthwatch in Birmingham has done some excellent work. I particularly mention a recent report on digital exclusion during the pandemic, when there was a sudden shift—like everywhere—towards remote access to care. Birmingham Healthwatch identified five principles for post-Covid-19 care, to ensure that everyone has access to the appointments they needed. This included a commitment to digital inclusion by treating the internet as a universal right. I believe its work has contributed more generally to the way in which this is being taken forward in the system. I think that, under the circumstances it has been operating in—not without difficulty and not without some tensions with local authorities—it has made a good start.

I want to just push Healthwatch on a little further and I want the Government to help. First, I am absolutely convinced that national Healthwatch should be an independent body. I have never understood the thinking that it should be a statutory committee within the CQC. I assume it is because, at the time, the Government were going through one of those wearying bonfire of the quangos that all Governments go through before they set up new quangos, to then have another bonfire a few years later. It just makes no sense. Clearly, they have complementary roles, and I am sure that the CQC takes note of what Healthwatch says, but they are different roles: one is the statutory regulator; the other has a responsibility for raising issues on behalf of the public who use the health services.

The question then arises of how we can strengthen Healthwatch at the local level. Will the systems, the integrated care partnerships and integrated care boards, listen to what Healthwatch has to say? A recent survey of ICS leaders—all there, in position—for Healthwatch England and NHS England shows that 80% would support Healthwatch having a formal seat at the table of the ICB if it were set out in legislation or guidance. What about the other 20%? Should it really be down to the vagaries of local leadership to exclude Healthwatch from those local bodies? I really do not think so.

I do not know if the noble Earl, Lord Howe, in answering, is going to be of a centralist or localist philosophy, or both, but it is always interesting to discuss. He and I have been discussing NHS structure for some 25 years now, and somehow the arguments tend to go on. It would be a real advantage for boards and partnerships to have Healthwatch around the table. It need not have voting members—indeed, I do not think it should. It is doing incredibly good work and has not been given enough publicity or recognition by people in the NHS. This surely is a way in which we can do this.

The Government also need to look at the budgets of Healthwatch England, which is going to have to support extra work and will need to be given more resources. Through local authorities, we need to make sure local Healthwatch has enough resources to deal with the pressing issues and challenges it is going to face. Having said that, our job today is just to encourage national and local Healthwatch to build on what they have done. I hope we can do this in as positive a way as possible. I beg to move.

[The Deputy Chairman of Committees (Baroness Fookes) (Con)]

The noble Baroness, Lady Masham, is now able to speak and I invite her to do so.

Medicines and Medical Devices Bill

Debate between Lord Hunt of Kings Heath and Baroness Fookes

Committee stage & Committee: 6th sitting (Hansard) & Committee: 6th sitting (Hansard): House of Lords
Tuesday 17th November 2020 Grand Committee

[The Deputy Chairman of Committees (Baroness Fookes) (Con)]

I have received a request to speak after the Minister from the noble Lord, Lord Hunt of Kings Heath. I am not clear whether the noble Lord, Lord Patel, also wishes to do so. Perhaps that could be clarified.

[Lord Hunt of Kings Heath (Lab) [V]]

I thank the Minister for his extensive response. Essentially, he has relied on the well-known departmental argument that, by listing certain categories of organisation, you exclude others. However, legislation that has been passed in the last few years has often contained extensive lists of organisations to be consulted. Amendment 128, which I support, would give Ministers the power to consult any other persons that the authority considered appropriate. I wonder whether the Minister will just answer this. He would surely accept that this Bill is highly unusual in giving a huge amount of powers to Ministers essentially to change primary legislation through regulation and extensively to alter the regulatory framework for medicines and medical devices. Given that, we should be careful about similarly open-ended regulations on consultation. The amendment would provide reassurance to the key sectors that they will be consulted, but it would also give discretionary power to Ministers to add to that on the occasions when greater flexibility was needed.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Hunt of Kings Heath (Lab) [V]]

My Lords, it is a great pleasure to follow the noble Lord, Lord Patel. No doubt we will have further debates about the role of politics in the National Health Service. I would just say to him that I think the failure of NHS England is, in many ways, an example of how we end up with a quango that seems unaccountable to Parliament but Ministers wash their hands of many of the decisions that they make. The problem is that you can end up with the worst of all worlds.

That perhaps reflects some of the issues relating to patient safety because, thanks to the Minister, we all enjoyed meeting the person responsible for patient safety in NHS England. The problem is that NHS England has many other responsibilities, including financial and target responsibilities. Patient safety does not really seem to be that body’s top concern.

This seems to be the very point that the noble Baroness, Lady Cumberlege, makes. Her report’s conclusion is really rather shocking in many ways. She made a general conclusion from the three areas that she investigated. She said that the healthcare system

“is disjointed, siloed, unresponsive and defensive. It does not adequately recognise that patients are its raison d’etre. It has failed to listen to their concerns and when, belatedly, it has decided to act it has too often moved glacially.”

That is a devastating critique, particularly in relation to patient safety.

I forgot to declare an interest as a member of the GMC board, but I must make it clear that I am not speaking on behalf of the GMC.

The noble Baroness’s recommendation of a patient safety commission is so powerful because she proposes that somebody sits outside the current system, accountable to Parliament and not to Ministers or the devolved NHS management system. She argues for the commissioner to have the necessary authority and standing to talk about, report on, influence and cajole where necessary without fear or favour on matters related to patient safety.

In pointing to the Children’s Commissioner, the noble Baroness, Lady Cumberlege, has really put her finger on it. This gives us an idea of the sort of person we need—someone who, like the Children’s Commissioner, challenges the positions of Governments, schools, unions and local authorities. As the noble Baroness said, I am certain that it was the Children’s Commissioner’s comments that led to the reopening of schools. I do not believe that somebody in a government department or a quango could have done that. She did it because, personally, she is a very admirable person, but structurally, because she is wholly independent.

The noble Baroness made some very telling points when she anticipated a potential criticism of her report. The core of it is that many organisations already have some responsibility for patient safety in their remit. That is true, and they all do good work, but she is right because none of them really has patient safety as a systematic approach to the NHS as their sole remit. Until we have some independent agency or person with patient safety as their sole remit, I am afraid that I do not think that we will make progress. We must accept that, if patient safety is one of many objectives of an organisation, compromises inevitably have to be made.

There is a tension between funding, throughput, targets and patient safety—not always, but sometimes. Here, I turn back to my experience as a foundation trust chair. The trust boards hold a huge amount of tension within them. Of course they are concerned with patient safety and quality, but they are also under the cosh from NHS England and the regulator, NHS Improvement, for their overall performance, whether financial or in throughput. I certainly accept the argument that many of the best organisations where everything runs well include patient safety, but to deny that there is a tension between these other objectives and patient safety is disingenuous.

That is why we look forward to the Minister making a strong statement. If he simply says that this is outside the Bill’s scope, as we have been told consistently, it will not cut the mustard, because we could easily start expanding and extending the Bill as we get other legislation and when the Government finally respond to the report of the noble Baroness, Lady Cumberlege. In my view, the Bill will not leave this House unamended unless the Government can make it clear that they are determined to implement the noble Baroness’s central recommendation.

[The Deputy Chairman of Committees (Baroness Fookes) (Con)]

My Lords, I suggest that the Committee adjourn for 15 minutes.