NHS: Health and Social Care Act 2012
Lord Hunt of Kings Heath Excerpts(12 years, 5 months ago)
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Lord Hunt of Kings Heath
To ask Her Majesty’s Government what assessment they have made of the cost to clinical commissioning groups and other parts of the National Health Service of tendering and legal fees in the commissioning of services under Part 3 of the Health and Social Care Act 2012.
Lord Hunt of Kings Heath (Lab)
My Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question standing in my name on the Order Paper, and draw the House’s attention to my health interests in the register.
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department of Health (Earl Howe) (Con)
My Lords, Part 3 of the Act does not change the requirements on clinical commissioning groups when they tender health services. The rules are the same as under the Public Contract Regulations 2006, introduced by the previous Administration, and as set out in the rules for commissioners.
Lord Hunt of Kings Heath
My Lords, the noble Earl will recollect our debates on the Health and Social Care Act 2012, when repeated assurances were made by Ministers that clinical commissioning groups would not be forced to tender out services. However, all the evidence to NHS England and the advice which clinical commissioning groups are getting from their lawyers suggests that under Section 75 of the Act, they have to do so. Does the noble Earl agree that that is an awful waste of money and effort, and that all it is doing is fragmenting services?
Earl Howe
My Lords, commissioners do not have to use competitive tendering for all services. First, acute elective care—which represents the vast majority of NHS services—is not secured through competitive tendering at all, and that will continue to be the case. Secondly, a single-tender action may be justified on the basis that there is only one provider able to meet the clinical quality and safety standards that the commissioner requires. There will be guidance coming out on that, and draft guidance has already been published. Any confusion that exists among commissioners should be clarified by that means.
Care Bill [HL]
Lord Hunt of Kings Heath Excerpts(12 years, 5 months ago)
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“( ) The Secretary of State in making regulations or issuing guidance under this Part must have regard to the general duty of local authorities, in exercising a function under this Part in the case of an individual, to promote that individual’s well-being.”
Lord Hunt of Kings Heath (Lab)
My Lords, as this is the start of Report, I declare my interests as chair of an NHS Foundation Trust, a consultant and trainer with Cumberlege Connections, and president of GS1 UK.
I am sure that the House would wish me to congratulate the noble Baroness, Lady Jolly, on her appointment to the Government and to the health team as a government Whip, and to thank the noble Baroness, Lady Northover, for her services.
The Bill places a responsibility on local authorities to promote well-being in the way in which they implement the provisions of the Bill locally. However, if the Secretary of State were to issue regulations without regard to the promotion of well-being, there is a risk that such regulations—or indeed guidance—could conflict with that well-being principle. That would put local authorities in an impossible position. This matter was the subject of considerable discussion and report by the joint scrutiny committee and we also discussed it in Committee. The Government have now responded to the points put by many noble Lords and I welcome the amendment moved by the noble Earl, Lord Howe. I also welcome Amendment 4, in the name of the noble Baroness, Lady Barker. I beg to move.
Lord Hamilton of Epsom (Con)
My Lords, I have added my name to the amendment in the name of the noble Baroness, Lady Barker, to add the words “and spiritual wellbeing”. This is an amendment that has been resisted in the past by my noble friend the Minister and I am somewhat confused as to why that should be. In 2002, the National Health Service was more than happy to add spiritual well-being as one of the conditions that should be applied to care that was given. I do not understand what has changed since. Has the NHS come to regret having these words in its remit? Does it find that spiritual wellbeing does not fit within the National Health Service today? Are people of faith who find that having an NHS that regards their spiritual well-being as important somehow more difficult to handle than atheists and people who have no faith at all? I should have almost thought that the reverse is true. When we come to what is euphemistically called end-of-life care, I should have thought that people of faith have something to look forward to, rather than atheists who, if they follow Richard Dawkins, are faced with a great black hole of oblivion. They might find that the end of life is rather more forbidding than do those who have faith.
I am very confused, therefore, as to why the Government find it necessary to resist this very minor and rather innocent amendment. It seems to merely add comfort to people of faith of all religions and could be inserted into this Bill without causing the Government any difficulty whatever.
Earl Howe
I can do no other than to look at this again, but I want to reassure my noble friends that their concerns are groundless because of the way that this clause has deliberately been framed. It is framed in terms of high-level principles. It is not designed to exclude any form of well-being whatever. It is designed to look at the person holistically and to ensure that no aspect of well-being is overlooked. I shall of course have a fresh look at this question, but I ask my noble friends, and the noble and right reverend Lord, Lord Harries of Pentregarth, to understand that this clause has been framed in a particular way quite deliberately, not to exclude any form of well-being but to encapsulate all forms of well-being.
In other words, the provisions allow consideration of this and indeed many other matters where relevant. I hope that with these assurances the noble Lord will feel able to withdraw his amendment, and indeed to support the amendments which I have tabled.
Lord Hunt of Kings Heath
The noble Baroness, Lady Barker, will respond to the point in relation to Amendment 4. Part of the confusion arises because the Department of Health seems to equate spiritual well-being with emotional well-being. I do not think that that would be generally held to be appropriate. Whether you have a faith or none, it does seem to me that by classifying spiritual belief within emotional well-being, the department has fallen into a pit of its own digging. I hope the noble Earl will indeed go back, and I assume that means this could be debated at Third Reading. Clearly noble Lords would wish to come back to it.
Whether this is for the noble Baroness, Lady Barker, or for the noble Earl, taking up the point raised by my noble friend Lord Warner, the chairman of the All-Party Humanist Group, my assumption would be that the duty on a local authority in relation to spiritual well-being would apply only when a person had a belief. Whether one defines humanism as spiritual I do not know—we are getting into deep waters here. I assume it is not intended that a person of no religion be required to be treated by the health service or local government as having a spiritual need.
We welcome Amendments 2, 3 and 138, and I beg leave to withdraw Amendment 1.
“( ) NHS bodies must exercise their functions—
(a) with a view to ensuring the integration of services for the purposes of enhancing the health and well-being of people, in keeping with the duty on Health and Wellbeing Boards enshrined in section 195 of the Health and Social Care Act 2012; and(b) without hindering the efforts of a local authority to fulfill its duty under subsection (1) above.”
Lord Hunt of Kings Heath
My Lords, in moving Amendment 11, I wish to speak also to Amendment 30. I also support the amendments in this group tabled by the noble Lord, Lord Best, but may respond to those later.
In Committee, we debated amendments promoting further integration of health and social care. As my noble friend Lady Wheeler said, we supported the view of the Association of Directors of Adult Social Services and the Local Government Association that the Bill should include a specific duty on NHS bodies equivalent to the duty on local authorities to integrate services and that this shared involvement should be enshrined in the Bill. Joint strategic needs assessments and joint health and well-being strategies should provide a strategic overview of how the health and well-being of local communities can be improved and health inequalities reduced. ADASS has long maintained that local health and well-being boards are pivotal in the delivery model in this respect and that the Bill must reflect this to bring about a wholly integrated accountable system that meets identified local needs and objectives.
The noble Earl, Lord Howe, said in Committee that he had no argument with the sentiments expressed by my noble friend and relied on Clauses 3 and 6 of the Bill and various other pieces of legislation, including Section 116 of the Local Government and Public Involvement in Health Act, which requires local authorities and clinical commissioning groups to have regard to the relevant joint strategic needs assessment and joint health and well-being strategy in exercising any of their functions, which would include their duty to co-operate and promote integration. The noble Earl also prayed in aid the prominence of health and well-being boards being strengthened through their role in signing off joint plans required as part of the £3.8 billion pooled fund between local authorities and the NHS to support joined-up and integrated working.
I certainly accept and understand those points but I would like us to go further. I argue that the measure should be much more explicit in the Bill in relation to the National Health Service’s duty of co-operation. We know that the current crisis in accident and emergency services which seems to be extending through the early autumn period is symptomatic of a health and social care system that is under huge pressure. If reductions in social care funding and support for the third sector mean that patients cannot be discharged from hospital that has a knock-on impact throughout the whole system. This Bill places major responsibilities on local authorities. Without the full co-operation of the National Health Service they will be very hard pressed to discharge those responsibilities.
The noble Earl is relying on this Bill and existing legislation but the fact is that so far this has not been sufficient. I refer him to a report published today by the University of Birmingham and Birmingham City Council entitled Turning the Welfare State Upside Down? The report says that our social care system is broken and increasingly unfit for purpose and that we need a big and bold response to tackle the crisis and ensure a decent and fair system for the future. The report is right to emphasise the need for close co-operation between social care and the NHS and to shape services around the needs of the individual. The problem is that the Government through their 2012 Act have created a disintegrated system instead of an integrated one and a system where fragmentation is rejoiced at and where the operation of a market is meant to drive a wedge between people who ought to be co-operating together.
I do not want to go back over this afternoon’s Oral Question, but clinical commissioning groups would have been surprised to hear the noble Earl suggest that it was entirely up to them whether or not services were put out to tender. They have been absolutely pressurised by NHS England to do that. NHS England is clearly under the direction of the Secretary of State: how could it not be when, according to government briefings over the last two weeks, the appointment of its chief executive is going to be the Prime Minister’s decision?
There is real concern that we have conjured up a very fragmented sector. As the noble Earl knows, we already have a system where physical health, mental health and social care have found it very difficult to integrate their services. As we have more older people with vulnerabilities and co-morbidities, the need for the systems to work together becomes ever more paramount.
Amendment 11 would put in the Bill an explicit requirement for the NHS, through the health and well-being boards, to play its full part in the integration of services. In Committee, the noble Earl was sympathetic to these sentiments but not to the amendment. I hope that, in the spirit of accepting wise words in this House, he will be prepared to be more sympathetic on this occasion. I beg to move.
Lord Best (CB)
My Lords, I rise to speak to the two amendments in my name and in the names of the noble Lord, Lord Hunt, and the noble Baronesses, Lady Eaton and Lady Barker. These amendments are carried forward from five which I tabled in Committee, all of which sought to give more prominence in the Bill to housing. I declare my interest as chairman of the Hanover Housing Association, which works exclusively for older people, and as president of the Local Government Association.
The overarching case for these amendments is that everyone's care needs are inseparably connected to the place where they live and where, for most older people, they spend all their time. The right accommodation can sustain our independence and well-being even if we face the illnesses or long-term conditions that afflict many of us in older age. The right accommodation can pre-empt and prevent the need for domiciliary and residential care and hugely reduce costs to the NHS and local authority social services. For younger adults with care needs, the right accommodation can enable a fulfilling life within the community, not hidden away in an institutional setting. The wrong accommodation can cause accidents and, indeed, mental health problems; keep people in hospital because their home will not have them back; and can force people into costly residential care.
This Bill is the chance to incorporate housing into the health and care equation so that these three interlinked dimensions can really work together. The noble Earl has worked hard over the recess to bring back improvements to the Bill. In relation to the housing issues, the noble Earl has noted that our concerns are shared by a number of Peers who feel that the Bill gives insufficient emphasis to the question of housing. He fully accepts the integral role of housing in helping meet care and support needs, and has told us that he sympathises with the arguments he has heard. I am very grateful to the noble Earl for the two amendments he has tabled to give greater prominence to the link between health, social care and housing. His response will be greatly welcomed by the Care and Support Alliance and, within that group, the National Housing Federation, which drafted the original amendments.
Government Amendment 28 to Clause 6 extends the duty of local authorities to co-operate with partners so that this duty will encompass housing associations—registered providers of social housing—which is a very significant step in absolutely the right direction. Government Amendment 12 to Clause 3 ensures that, in terms of the integration of services, housing will be classified as “health related” and will therefore be taken on board by clinical commissioning groups and the NHS Commissioning Board, NHS England. Both these changes are really positive and I congratulate the noble Earl for his farsightedness, once again, in improving the Bill in these two ways.
At the risk of appearing slightly churlish, however, perhaps I could press the noble Earl on the two issues that remain outstanding and are covered by the two amendments in my name, which have support from all parts of the House. In relation to advice, Amendment 15 to Clause 4 would ensure that people have access to good information on the options available to them in relation to housing requirements, spelling out both ways in which their current home could be made more suitable and the choices that they could make about a move to supported or retirement accommodation, such as assisted living and extra care housing.
Although the Bill ensures that advice on care services will be made available, the Joint Committee on the draft Bill strongly recommended that advice on housing options also be included. So far, this recommendation has not been taken on board. It is not an onerous extra requirement to include housing advice in the mix, particularly given that many local authorities already ensure that people get this advice. Indeed, the Local Government Association supports this amendment. The Minister pointed out in Committee that information and advice on specialist housing options should be included when housing information is supplied. This amendment adds the prompt for such housing advice also to be included when guidance is given on care matters.
A move to a more suitable place can be suggested for a younger adult with care requirements. Sources of support for helping an older person to downsize, perhaps in decluttering the attic or sorting out the garden shed, can be recommended. For those who stay put, there is often so much to be done of a practical nature in making life easier for an older person and reducing their dependency on paid carers or family carers. From replacing hard-to-turn taps with long-handle lever taps for someone with arthritic hands, or fitting firm banister rails to the stairs, right through to converting the bathroom to fit a walk-in shower or installing a stair lift, all such adaptations can delay or prevent the need for more intrusive and expensive care provision. With good advice, paying for those adaptations can be covered by disabled facilities grants or equity loans, just as advice for a younger adult with care needs can be given on how the costs of renting a more suitable home can be covered.
Last Friday, I had the great pleasure of visiting the brilliant Centre for Independent Living in Knowsley, jointly funded and staffed by the health, social care and housing services in this borough. The centre brings together all the key elements of a truly holistic service. The occupational therapists are there, as are the care and repair team who can organise reliable builders and advise on grants, the wheelchair and aids teams, and the handy persons who do small improvement jobs. All the different disciplines and specialisms come together in Knowsley’s centre. It helped some 5,700 people last year. About half were referred by GPs, and health needs are therefore often the trigger, but the solution may well be in meeting the individual’s requirements within their home or, indeed, in pursuing a housing solution elsewhere, such as a move to extra care. So when a local authority gets it right, as in Knowsley, it really can do a fantastic, joined-up health, care and housing job. Good advice that covers the housing dimensions is the start of this process.
Amendment 23, the second amendment in my name and those of the noble Lord, Lord Hunt, and the noble Baronesses, Lady Eaton and Lady Barker, would complete the picture. This amendment again does not add significantly to the burden of responsibilities for local authorities. It falls within the “have regard to”, not the “must”, part of Clause 5, but would mean that in seeking to manage the market for care provision, local authorities should have regard to the housing situation facing those with care needs in their area. It raises the profile of housing in this context so that the different parts of local government all take it into account in their policies and strategies.
The amendment would mean that those within local councils responsible for social care would concern themselves with housing requirements, no doubt by feeding the necessary information into the planning system to influence future housing provision. In devising their strategies, health and well-being boards would consider whether more and better housing should be a priority, whether more disabled facilities grants or support for home improvements could play a greater part in preventing the need for intensive personal care, or whether extending a handy person service would not pay for itself almost instantly. This amendment would mean integrating housing considerations into the shaping of care markets, as well as integrating care considerations into the shaping of housing markets. That would benefit everyone.
I congratulate the Minister on the two important government amendments which give added emphasis to housing. I hope that he is able to go further and take on board these relatively modest but entirely sensible additional changes to the Bill.
Baroness Masham of Ilton (CB)
My Lords, I apologise for having only just come into the Chamber, but I have been at an important meeting with representatives from a children’s heart unit. However, this Bill is also important, particularly these amendments. What the Minister gives us assurances about in this House does not always happen on the ground. The matter of housing provision for disabled people has caused aggro up and down the country. People are worried about it. If the Minister can be helpful today, that will do a lot of good.
Lord Hunt of Kings Heath
My Lords, I support the noble Lord, Lord Best, in relation to Amendments 15 and 23. Obviously, we welcome the government amendments to which the noble Earl, Lord Howe, will speak shortly, but it seems that the amendments tabled by the noble Lord, Lord Best, point to areas where the government amendments do not really meet the needs. Amendment 15, on making available information about housing adaptations and on specialist and accessible housing as a key requirement of a local authority’s information service, was a clear recommendation of the Joint Committee. The noble Baroness has just illustrated why making such information available is so important. It could be very helpful in terms of avoiding the need for people to receive long-term care. We should not underestimate the challenge people face when simply trying to find their way through the system. We find it complex, so how much more difficult must it be for those with little experience of the care sector and the housing system? I believe that Amendment 23 is critical to the success of the Government’s own housing amendment. It would ensure a three-way integration that would be an explicit part of a local authority’s duty to promote efficient and effective local markets for meeting care and support. It would particularly ensure that it has regard to the importance of adults’ access to suitable living accommodation.
We know that many local authorities are doing this without any prompting from the noble Lord, Lord Shipley, or my noble friend Lord Beecham. I recently came across the housing for an age-friendly city programme. It seemed to be a really good illustration of how, if a recognition of the changing needs and support of older people is at your core, and you supply a range of care and support housing options as an alternative to residential care, it makes the essential connection between, for example, managing a long-term illness and living in the right accommodation, and the importance of extra care housing schemes that enable people to live independently for longer.
I also just came across a One Housing Group initiative in Islington. It is a scheme designed for 14 people who spend a maximum of 14 days in the centre as an alternative to acute NHS admissions. It has a drop-in centre and an emergency helpline, and this crisis recovery house helps 550 people a year. It keeps 87% out of hospital admissions. It was commissioned by the health service but it shows the interconnection between housing and health.
In responding to the noble Lord, Lord Best’s amendments, I hope that the Government might be prepared to reconsider this and come back at Third Reading with further amendments.
Lord Warner
My Lords, I am sorry that I missed the beginning of this debate but I was with the noble Baroness, Lady Masham, listening to Sir Bruce Keogh explaining how the mess around paediatric surgery was going to be sorted out.
I lend my support to Amendments 11 and 15. I remind the House that many years ago, in the good old days, housing and health were together in the same ministry; there was a united ministry covering both health and housing. We have lost something by that separation. I think that the NHS needs to be given a push on integration, so I very much like the amendment of my noble friend. Too often the NHS forgets that it could help itself by working more closely with other interests, and it would be a timely reminder in this piece of legislation to get that message across. As the noble Lord, Lord Best, has said, we have missed many opportunities over a long period of time, to bring housing into the party as the population has aged. All it has done is increase the burden on adult social care and the NHS. It would be a missed opportunity if we did not rectify some of that now.
Lord Hunt of Kings Heath
My Lords, it is good to know that after due consideration the noble Earl is satisfied with his own amendment. On the housing amendments, the noble Lord, Lord Best, will make up his own mind, but it struck me that he is relying on the difference between the local authority as the local housing authority and the local authority as the care authority. He is of course right to say that in county shire areas in some places it is a different function. However, there remains a concern, given that in relation to care and support we are talking about difficult circumstances, often with vulnerable people, over whether the appropriate advice and support will be given. No doubt the noble Lord, Lord Best, will reflect on that.
On my Amendment 11, on integration, the noble Earl relies on existing duties of co-operation on the NHS, and Clauses 3 and 6. Where I fundamentally disagree with him is on the impact of the 2012 Act. The noble Earl may not be aware of just how difficult it now is for the NHS to put a cohesive plan and programme together in every locality, because the current incentives do not encourage that integration. I know that he warns us against putting what he thinks is a superfluous clause in the Bill—but this Care Bill is vitally important. It revises social care legislation and adds the foundations of the implementation of the Dilnot commission. It would be very helpful if there were an explicit duty of co-operation on the National Health Service, because we will not bring about integrated care without the full support of the National Health Service. On due reflection, I would like to test the opinion of the House.
Lord Warner
My Lords, I will make a few remarks about three separate subjects that are covered in this group of amendments. First, I congratulate the noble Baroness, Lady Barker, on her tenacity on the subject of advocacy. I very much support what the Government are doing to try to respond to that, because it is a view that many of us across the House have had for some time. The Bill was deficient in terms of advocacy for those who need that kind of help and support.
I will make one remark in relation to my noble friend Lord Lipsey’s remarks, which we will go into a bit more under the next amendment. I remind the Government of the mis-selling of pensions and insurance in the financial services sector. They would do well to dwell on that before they eliminate the idea of some regulation. I see the argument that not all types of financial advice need a regulated financial adviser. However, some types of that advice need a regulated financial adviser. My peace offering to the Government is the following. If they thought a bit more about this, given what happened in the financial services sector, it may be possible to separate out the types of financial advice and deal with it in regulation, where we need both regulated and unregulated people. At the moment, the Government are being too broad-brush in ignoring some of the complexities, particularly around equity release and deferred payments, which may be equally as complex as any of the pensions and insurance issues that were being rather gaily sold by untrained people in the financial services sector.
I take issue with the noble Baroness, Lady Meacher, on Amendment 21, drawing on my six years as a director of social services. In the 1980s, we set up a care management system where care managers did not have to be qualified social workers. These people were putting together packages of care after an in-service training course, which enabled them to deal with some very vulnerable people with quite complex needs. It is not necessary to have a social worker. Many local authority departments over the years have developed benefits advice services that run alongside their social work colleagues, which give financial benefits advice to vulnerable people who need to be helped to find their way around the social security system. I caution the Government against not going down that path. With all due respect to the professional advice that the noble Baroness, Lady Barker, has had, qualified social workers are not necessarily very good at giving some of the advice that we are talking about.
Even more to the point, we should not divert a scarce resource such as qualified social workers into this area of activity when we do not need to. I remind the noble Earl that we are seeing, in the children’s services, a 50% increase in the number of children coming into care in a four-year period. The real need for social work skills and resources is in some of those other areas of work that local authorities have to deal with. However modest the numbers may be—and this amendment does not limit them that much—we do not need to divert scarce social work resources into this area. They need to go into some of their higher priority work, particularly in the area of children.
Lord Hunt of Kings Heath
My Lords, we shall come to Amendment 20, in the name of my noble friend Lord Lipsey and that of other noble Lords, including me, in a moment. However, I want to ask the noble Earl about the point raised by the noble Baroness, Lady Barker, in relation to independent advocacy. The noble Baroness raised a pertinent point about what responsibility there is on a local authority to engage with the advocate. I hope that the noble Earl will provide the House with more information. Clearly, this is a step forward, which is to be welcomed, but one needs some assurance that the advocacy system will work effectively. It would be helpful to know what the noble Earl’s department thinks might be the appropriate response of a local authority where an advocate has come to the fore.
I have a great deal of sympathy with the amendment of the noble Baroness, Lady Greengross. It is one thing to provide information support grudgingly; another to be proactive in doing so. Perhaps the noble Earl would comment in particular on Clause 4, because there is a world of difference between Clause 4(1), in which a local authority must,
“establish and maintain a service for providing people in its area with information and advice”,
and Clause 4(2), which goes on to describe what type of advice. This does not assure us that a local authority will be effective in doing so. I should be grateful if the noble Earl would explain how this will be monitored. Will the Government have a role in reviewing the effectiveness of local authorities in providing that?
If one is resident in an area where the local authority does not seem to provide an effective information and advice service, what recourse does one have? I assume that there would be judicial review and the ombudsman, but those are heavy-handed approaches and it would be helpful to know whether the Government have thought through ways in which members of the public can draw attention to failures to provide effective information and advice in some local authority areas.
That might pick up on the amendment relating to the use of professionally qualified social workers. My noble friend Lord Warner, with a great deal of experience, has suggested that even in areas where there are complex needs, a qualified social worker need not necessarily provide this support. None the less, one wants some assurance that sufficient provision for support will be given. Again, it comes back to the issue of how we will monitor the performance of local authorities.
Baroness Meacher
My Lords, perhaps as a point of information in response to the noble Lord, Lord Warner, I should clarify that my amendment does not suggest that qualified social workers should provide financial advice, for example. The important point about the role of these qualified social workers is that they are used to co-ordinating services for people and would be well aware of the need for financial and all sorts of other advice. Therefore, in relation to people with very complex needs, they are in a good position to make sure that all the bits of the jigsaw are actually provided. That was the objective behind the amendment.
Lord Warner
My Lords, I rise to support this amendment and, particularly, to talk about the first two prongs of it. I do this partly from my experience as a member of the Dilnot commission. I remind the House what that commission said on the subject of an awareness campaign. We made only 10 recommendations, one of which was a very strong one because we had been incredibly depressed by the evidence given about people’s understanding of the present system, let alone the new one. When you have 60% of the population thinking that social care is provided by the NHS, you have a bit of a problem explaining to people how the system operates. Since they have not even mastered the existing system, you have to make a really big effort to get across some of the messages about the changes to it.
You could argue that it is a bit like Africa: if you have never had a landline and go straight to mobile phones it might be easier to make the change. Many people will not carry a lot of baggage about the existing system, but we do need to work really hard on this issue. That is why we said:
“To encourage people to plan ahead for their later life we recommend that the Government invest in an awareness campaign”—
we used the word “invest” very deliberately—
“This should inform people of the new system and the importance of planning ahead. This campaign could be linked into the wider work to encourage pension savings”.
Those three sentences were worked over very carefully and we said exactly what we meant on those issues. We said them as strongly as that because we thought that, to some extent, the success or failure of the changes encompassed in the Bill depend on that awareness campaign. I have not seen the Minister’s reply, but I have a suspicion—because I know how health Ministers get briefed—that there will be something about how this is not appropriate stuff to put in the Bill. I can see that there is some strength in that argument but if we are not to put it in the Bill then the Minister has got to start to tell us, in detail, what the Government are going to do.
The Government have had more than two years to think about this. We were made to produce a report very quickly indeed: within 12 months. It is now more than two years since it was produced and I should have thought we could expect a reasonably detailed plan from the Department of Health about how it is actually going to make the public aware. It would be nice if the Minister accepted the amendment, but if he is not going to, we need to know: where is the budgetary provision for the awareness campaign; what work has been done on the selection of people to help run the campaign; when it will start and how long it will go on for. How much are you going to pay for this? Do you accept the idea that all good awareness campaigns have some kind of follow-up arrangements? The noble Lord, Lord Sharkey, has suggested an annual survey and I would not disagree with that. As he rightly said, these surveys are, from my experience, relatively cheap to do. Given the sums of money we are talking about in the Bill, this would be a very modest thing to do and there is certainly no point in having an awareness campaign if you are not going to check up whether there has been any increase in awareness.
There is a raft of issues where we need to have some detail from the Government on what they have been doing on this recommendation for a couple of years. If we have not got a very convincing story, we have to consider putting this in the Bill, to generate some energy and action in this area.
I turn to the second prong, which we have already talked a little bit about under the previous group of amendments. I strongly support what my noble friend Lord Lipsey said, and I want to return to the issue of mis-selling. We have had some serious problems in this country about the way the public has been sold financial products and we ought to be able to learn from history over that. It is not any old Tom, Dick and Harry who can give sensible advice to people about complex financial issues. The noble Lord, Lord Deben, is right: many of these issues are complex and you need a simple system to get to the advice, but the advice is not always going to be simple.
Let me illustrate that with the sort of circumstances that families and older people may be faced with. It is fairly common that an older person is going to give up their house; their spouse has died and they will have to give up the house. The family might well want to have a conference about what they do with that house. There are several options: they could keep the house and rent it for income; they could go for equity release; they could go for deferred payments; or they could go for a point of care plan, as my noble friend said. Choosing the best thing to do from some of those options is not straightforward; it will require someone who knows their way around some of these issues and can give advice to people and their families on how to make a sensible, good decision that fits their particular circumstances. The Government have to give more consideration to this.
I accept that not every issue will be complicated and there could be some circumstances in which the financial advice does not need to be given by a regulated financial adviser. However, the Government now have to do the legwork on separating the sort of situations where regulated financial advice is needed from those where one can be more relaxed about it. If we do not give guidance of some standing and credibility to local authorities, we put them in an invidious position because they will be damned if they do and damned if they do not. They need some advice on the sorts of circumstances in which they, to discharge their obligations under the terms of this piece of legislation, can point people clearly in the direction of advice that is likely to be appropriate to that person’s circumstances.
Lastly, I wish to make a point to the noble Earl about the Secretary of State’s new obligation under government Amendment 138 to have regard to the local authority’s requirement in Clause 1 to promote well-being. The Secretary of State is now pretty much in the same position as that of the local authority when he is producing guidance and regulations. It is at least an arguable case that he would not be fulfilling that requirement unless he put in place some credible arrangements for sound financial advice being given to people and he helped the public to understand the details of the arrangements of the new scheme that the Government were implementing. I am not a lawyer, but it would be worth a punt by going to lawyers to argue that the Secretary of State would be in breach of his new obligations if he took a cavalier approach to financial advice and awareness of the new scheme.
Lord Hunt of Kings Heath
My Lords, I, too, support the amendment. I thank the noble Earl, Lord Howe, for giving us an assurance that this matter can be brought back at Third Reading, which is very helpful to our debate.
As several noble Lords have said, many people find dealing with financial products very complex indeed. They also find the system of social care funding to be complex. How much more complex will it be when the Dilnot provisions in the Bill are introduced? My noble friend made the point that many people misunderstand the current system. Many people think that social care is free at the point of use until they suddenly reach a situation where either they or their relatives are faced with catastrophic issues around long-term care. Even in relation to Dilnot, my noble friend Lord Lipsey pointed out in Committee that many people think there is this cap of £72,000 but, as we know, it is much more complex than that. The £72,000 cap is based on the fee that the local authority will pay for people who are not self-funded, but we know that self-funders, in essence, subsidise those who go into care that is in one way or another funded by the local authority because they meet the means-test requirements. Of course it is not free because there then have to be hotel costs, which Dilnot estimated to be about £12,000 a year. This matter is therefore very complex and many people find dealing with financial issues very difficult.
Care Bill [HL]
Lord Hunt of Kings Heath Excerpts(12 years, 5 months ago)
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Baroness Emerton (CB)
My Lords, I apologise for not having heard the first part of the speech made by my noble friend Lady Meacher; I can only say how much I agree with her. In the past nine weeks, while the carer was away, I had the personal experience of doing two weeks’ full-time caring. I timed waking up, giving the medication, getting breakfast, rushing up to do my post while she was having her breakfast, and then attending to her personal care and getting her dressed. It took an hour and a half, every day, and that was just the morning.
On the point made by the noble Baroness, Lady Finlay, the minimum quality standards in the noble Earl’s amendment set a good standard. However, that needs to be supported by an assessment and care programme. There needs to be a proper assessment of what is required in terms of the total care, not just the minimum. We have a system for some of our residents in the retirement development where I live, where prevention to admission to hospital is done by an assessment of how much time care is required. Two people come from the unit—a nurse and a physiotherapist—and fully assess the patient. If there is a proper care programme, that gives the time element. Amendment 25 says “excluding travel time” and that a visit should not take less than 30 minutes. It is difficult to be so prescriptive, but if that was according to the care plan, it might go a long way.
Lord Hunt of Kings Heath (Lab)
My Lords, Amendment 151 is in my name. This is a very important group that goes right to the heart of our debates about the quality of care that is being given to many vulnerable people. You cannot distinguish the quality of care from the way in which care workers themselves are treated. I very much agree with the noble Baroness, Lady Gardner, on that.
In Committee I quoted from a Unison survey called Time to Care, and I will quote one or two statistics from it. In this survey, 79.1% of the staff surveyed said that they had to rush work or leave one care visit early to go to another. Some 56% earned between £6.08 and £8 per hour. The majority do not get set wages. Their turnover is very high: 57.8% of those surveyed were not paid for travelling time between visits. That is not the foundation for providing good-quality, comprehensive and continuous care.
We know that many people on these so-called zero-hour contracts have had to sacrifice time with their children in order to be available when their employer requires them to be—even if there is no work. Others are required to work exclusively for one employer with no guarantee that they work enough hours to pay the bills. The Opposition believe that employers ought to be banned from insisting that zero-hour workers be available even when there is no guarantee of any work. We should stop zero-hour contracts that require workers to work exclusively for one business, and we should end the misuse of those contracts where employees in practice work regular hours over a sustained period.
The issue of how care workers are treated and employed is directly linked to the arguments of the noble Baronesses, Lady Meacher and Lady Greengross, about 15-minute care visits. There is no doubt that there is widespread concern about the impact of local authorities setting what can seem to many to be arbitrary limits in the time allowed for care. I do not necessarily go along with the amendment sponsored by the Leonard Cheshire organisation, but the argument that it raises about care workers being asked to provide personal care, including supporting service users to dress, bathe, eat and go to the bathroom in a timeframe that simply does not allow dignity or respect, seems powerful.
Equally, I have noted the comments of the president of the Association of Directors of Adult Social Services, who cautions against taking a broad-brush approach in terms of the time that should be given to each client. The association agrees with Leonard Cheshire Disability that 15 minutes is not long enough to allow some homecare tasks to be done, but it says that there is a need for some flexible and truly personal approach, so that each person can be assessed and provided with the appropriate care. The noble Baroness, Lady Masham, made a powerful point that if one seeks to place in legislation a minimum number of minutes, the risk is that it would not meet some people’s needs. However, the problem is that if one starts to define it in legislation, it might become the maximum. That seems to be one of the great dangers.
That is why we need to look carefully at the noble Earl’s two amendments. I appreciate the fact that he has come back to your Lordships’ House with some amendments which seek to deal with the substance of the issues that we are talking about. In essence, they say that local authorities, in promoting the effective operation of a market, must first have regard to,
“the importance of fostering a workforce whose members are able to ensure the delivery of high quality services”,
which is in Amendment 24; and in Amendment 27 they must have regard to,
“the importance of promoting the well-being of adults … with needs for care and support and the well-being of carers in its area”.
The question for us is whether that is enough. I rather doubt it. That a local authority “must have regard to” does not seem a particularly strong message to local authorities. Where is the beef in that? Where is the leverage to make local authorities do the right thing in a context, which we must recognise, where they are extremely pressurised in relation to resources?
The reason why I tabled Amendment 151 is that, given that it is difficult in legislation to prescribe the kind of behaviour that we want from local authorities—for the reasons that we have already debated and which the noble Baroness, Lady Masham, illustrated effectively —one way to deal with this issue is through the regulatory system, as I said in Committee. Noble Lords will know that later in the Bill we will discuss the Care Quality Commission and already in the current Bill it states:
“The Commission must, in respect of such English local authorities as may be prescribed … conduct reviews of the provision of such adult social services provided or commissioned by the authorities as may be prescribed”.
There is an opportunity for the Government to say that the CQC will take this on as a major responsibility, to review, monitor and, in some cases, take effective regulatory action, if they believe that the action of those people providing care, either in terms of how they have been commissioned by local authorities or by self-funders, is inadequate. However, the problem with the clause is that there is no guarantee that that is going to happen, because all we are doing is essentially giving the Government regulation-making powers. There is no certainty that this approach will be prescribed.
Lord Hunt of Kings Heath
My Lords, I agree with the noble Earl that the commissioning policies of some local authorities are called into question. However, are there some issues here regarding the resources they have available? Is the overall reduction in local authority expenditure not also responsible for some of these policies?
Earl Howe
My Lords, we certainly know that the reduction in resources has had some effect. However, it is interesting that the feedback from local authority chief executives and directors of adult social services suggests clearly that the detrimental effect on the provision of adult social care is not as dramatic as one might suppose from the drop in local authority budgets. This is partly because of the funding provided by my department to local authorities to make up some of the gap. I would not wish to say that there has been zero effect. We think, from the feedback, that the volume of services has diminished by about 5%. This is 5% too much, in most people’s eyes, but may not be as significant as some have feared.
My second point is that central prescription risks prohibiting practices that may, in some circumstances, be consistent with high-quality care. For example, 15-minute homecare visits could well be appropriate in some situations, for instance for helping people to take medication, which is not a process that takes very long at all. Further, using legislation to ban specific processes may result in perverse incentives arising, without addressing the actual problem. A number of noble Lords made that point.
Thirdly, legislating for a specific period of time for which homecare visits must last risks reinforcing one of the key problems here: inappropriate use of time and task commissioning. Instead, we need to move away from overly prescriptive commissioning practices which focus on—
Earl Howe
I do understand that and apologise if I implied anything different. I was seeking to make the point that once you specify a period of time in a Bill it starts to look prescriptive, even if that is not the intent or the effect.
As I was saying, we need to move away from overly prescriptive commissioning practices that focus on price and time-slots, to consider how local authorities can deliver better outcomes and quality care. None the less, there is more that we can and will do to tackle poor commissioning practices. There is a role for regulation. We are therefore proposing an amendment that will make it clear that the CQC may, with approval from both Secretaries of State of DH and DCLG, undertake a special review of local authority commissioning of adult social services in cases of systematic failure. Subsequent to any such review, CQC could issue an improvement notice in the event of a non-substantial failing and recommend special measures to the Secretary of State in the event of substantial failings.
We also intend to issue statutory guidance specifically on local authority commissioning. This will be a valuable opportunity to influence local practice. In particular, we will include in this guidance clear examples of high-quality and poor-quality commissioning practices to support local authorities to develop and improve their own approach.
As well as tabling Amendment 27, we have also, in response to points raised in Committee, tabled Amendment 24, which will require local authorities to consider through their commissioning decisions the importance of fostering a workforce able to deliver high-quality services when shaping local markets. This amendment is, of course, not just about local authority commissioning practices but more widely about how the local authority can work with the market in its area, including with providers from which it does not commission services, to foster a high-quality workforce. This reflects our strong belief that the characteristics of the workforce, including opportunities for learning and skills development, have a direct relationship with the quality of the care that individuals receive. Improving the capability of the workforce through continued skills development and appropriate working conditions is therefore a key component of market shaping.
I therefore fully agree with the intention behind Amendment 151, but I note that the CQC already has powers to take into account standards of employment as part of its inspection of providers. A separate duty on the CQC to undertake periodic assessments of employment standards would duplicate what the commission is already able to do and compel it to undertake assessments of a very specific nature. For that reason, I cannot support Amendment 151, tabled by the noble Lord, Lord Hunt. It is vital that we give the commission the time and freedom to develop its own performance-assessment methodology. In the fullness of time, this may mean that ratings consider employment standards, but this should be a matter for CQC to determine after considering the views of key stakeholders.
Lord Hunt of Kings Heath
I am grateful to the noble Earl for giving way and I imagine that we can debate this more fully when we come to his amendments around CQC independence. However, there is surely a distinction to be drawn between the way that the commission does its work and the overall strategic framework in which it does it. I should have thought that it would be appropriate for Parliament to lay down that it would be right for the CQC to focus on standards in the care sector. Does the noble Earl agree that you can draw a distinction between the framework that is set out in legislation and the way in which the CQC does its work—and I very much support the idea of its independence?
Baroness Greengross
My Lords, this amendment concerns discharge plans for people in hospital. I shall start by saying that, in response to my Amendment 87ZA tabled in Committee on this issue, the Minister was understandably reluctant to specify the particular circumstances in which the high-level aims of the general duty to co-operate, as set out in Clause 6(5), should apply. He felt that there should not be an exhaustive list of circumstances, such as discharge plan management, in which the power should be used, and said that he expected authorities and their relevant partners to co-operate when an individual was discharged from acute care under this clause. He asserted that Schedule 3 to the Bill sets out clear steps to ensure the safe discharge of a patient from an acute care setting, and that an assessment for care and support should be made before the patient is discharged, not afterwards. Clause 12(1)(b) already allows for regulations to specify other matters to which the local authority must have regard in carrying out an assessment. Given that this involves setting out procedural detail and related matters, he felt it more appropriate to set out such detail in regulations rather than in the Bill.
While I agree with much of that, my main point regarding the importance of discharge being included as part of admission planning into an acute care setting may have been misunderstood. The subject of discharge should be considered as part of the admission process, long before the actual discharge is instigated. That is the important point here, and I remain firm in my belief that it should be included in the Bill. The most important thing is the idea that discharge planning should be part of the admission process. We have all heard a large number of stories of people who have been discharged inappropriately because everything is decided too late in the day and no one is ready for the discharge. I personally could talk about two or three relatives aged 80 to 90 who have been dumped out of hospital in the middle of the night. Such instances are horrific, but I am afraid that they will continue unless we get this right.
Clause 12 is not relevant here because it refers to a need for a care assessment as being an essential part of the discharge process from an acute setting into either supported home care or longer-term residential care. I want to ensure that it will be facilitated by eventual discharge being part of the admission assessment, which is a very different process that is gone through at a different time by different clinical staff. Including such a duty in Clause 6 would ensure that this happens, so that the eventual discharge stands more of a chance of being successful. The Royal College of Nursing has expressed the view that:
“We are currently seeing far too many people trapped in a ‘revolving door’ between community and hospital services”.
Ensuring a suitable discharge founded on appropriate admission from acute care would, in my view, go a long way to reducing this terrible waste of resources and its associated human misery. I beg to move.
Lord Hunt of Kings Heath
My Lords, I am grateful to the noble Baroness, Lady Greengross, for allowing this debate. This is an important question and I agree that ensuring that an assessment is made around the time of the admission of a patient to a hospital or other acute care setting would help the process of the appropriate discharge of that person when the time comes for them to leave. One has to say that the context in which we are debating this is one in which the health and social care system is under extreme strain. The Minister will know that the accident and emergency performance, and the issue of the four-hour target, is proving to be problematic for a number of trusts, including my own, in September and October. Clearly, if the health service is having difficulties in September or October, in pretty clement weather, it does leave one with some foreboding about what is going to happen later on in the winter.
The Government have injected a certain amount of resource into the system—I think it is £250 million—which is labelled on the tin “to A&E departments”. The Minister will know that the money has not gone to A&E departments; it has tended to go to the clinical commissioning groups. While limited amounts have gone to A&E departments, in the main, this has been dealt with through urgent care boards. My understanding is that in a lot of areas they still have not decided how to spend the resources. This is partly because CCGs seem to be slow to make hard decisions, and partly because some are not spending the money because they say that they have not received it yet. The problem is this: if by the middle of October you still have not spent or committed yourself to those additional resources, it could take another three months. If, for instance, it was a series of care packages or it was extra resource for employing more nurses, it could take an awfully long time from the decision to spend the money to it actually being in place, and then for the money to be spent.
I am really using this as an opportunity to say to the noble Earl, Lord Howe, that there is a real issue at the local level of actually getting all the partners together and to agree the actions that need to be taken to ensure that we do not get the kind of discharge problems that we are seeing.
What is the cause of the issue of A&E performance? There has been some debate about whether it is partly due to the lack of accessibility and primary care. No doubt, there are serious issues involved which would suggest that that is a problem. However, the noble Earl may have seen some work undertaken by Matthew Cooke, who used to be the adviser to the Government on urgent care and was a consultant in my own trust at Heart of England. His work would suggest that the problem is discharge; that there is simply not the capacity in the community or among personal social services departments to provide the support that is required. However much the Government want to beat up A&E departments, unless we can sort out the capacity in the community, these problems will continue.
The noble Baroness’s amendment is really trying to get to the heart of this. She is saying that it is a real problem—not just for older and more vulnerable patients, but it is probably more directed at those patients—if the first time you start to worry about discharge procedures is when they have spent quite a few days in hospital. First, it takes a long time for the system to intervene; and secondly, it may mean that the patient stays in hospital too long. We know all the problems of institutionalisation, when people have greater difficulty in going back to their own home or into low-level community provision as opposed to having to go into care homes.
The noble Earl, Lord Howe, will no doubt say that this is not the stuff of legislation. However, because of the seriousness of the current problems in our health and social care system, it would send a very powerful signal to people working at local level about the absolute importance of starting discharge planning almost as soon as a person comes into A&E, and of the need to have an integrated approach. It would also give a signal to local authorities. At the moment there is a real problem because local authorities often play around with discharges by saying that they are not convinced that a person is ready for discharge. That is simply trying to ration expenditures. A signal to local authorities that that is also unacceptable would be very helpful.
I am glad that the noble Baroness raised this problem. It is a very important issue. I hope that the noble Earl may be able to help us with it.
Baroness Barker (LD)
My Lords, I care passionately about hospital discharges. In 30 years of working with older people and older people’s organisations, we have never managed, under any structure or formulation of the National Health Service, to get right the system of discharging people from hospital. I suspect that the noble Lord, Lord Hunt, is right that the Minister will resist attempts such as that of the noble Baroness, Lady Greengross, to address the issue through legislation.
From my work with voluntary organisations, and some work that I have done over the summer, talking to CCGs, there are two things that could have a direct impact on this. The first is to work with people in the acute sector, to get them to understand that very often voluntary organisations are and can be the answer to managing people’s admission to A&E and their return from hospital. At the moment, many CCGs do not see that voluntary organisations have any role to play in their work. As long as they are of that opinion, frankly, the position is not going to change.
Secondly, there are examples of very good hospital discharge planning. A number of Age UK branches have take-home-and-settle schemes. There is a hospital, I think it is in the Midlands, where a housing association has taken over a ward and turned it into a discharge facility.
Lord Hunt of Kings Heath
My Lords, I am very glad that the noble Baroness has mentioned that. My own trust, the Heart of England, has an agreement with Midland Heart to do that. It shows that you can create capacity. My point is, that was negotiated four or five months ago. It is far too late for clinical commissioning groups to be messing around in mid-October, still pondering how they are going to spend the money. It will be January or February before they are going to be able to spend it.
Earl Howe
My Lords, I should like to thank the noble Baroness, Lady Greengross, for tabling Amendments 29 and 125, on what is undoubtedly an extremely important issue, not just for the system but, most importantly, for the patients themselves. When someone is discharged from an acute care setting, care and support must be joined up to prevent unnecessary delays and readmissions that can be distressing to patients and their families and carers. The noble Lord, Lord Hunt, was absolutely right on increasing pressure on acute trusts, not least in A&E.
There is a mixture of reasons why this is occurring: the weight of patient demand; the acuity of patients who present at A&E, more of whom have to be admitted; workforce issues in some A&E departments; hospital discharge practices that may not be as efficient as they should be; an absence of follow-on care in certain locations or, indeed, adult social care services; and delays in installing home adaptations. One cannot generalise about this problem. One can say only that in many areas it is very real.
I will just correct the noble Lord on one issue: the £250 million that we have allocated to ease the pressures on A&E. Those moneys went to 53 NHS trusts before the end of September. They went to trusts that were most at risk of breaching the A&E standards. They were not chosen by Ministers or the Government. The process was led by NHS England and Monitor, so it was done on a structured and objective basis.
Lord Hunt of Kings Heath
The point is that the chief executive of each of those trusts had to sign, if you like, for the money, but they did not get all the money. Most of the money went to clinical commissioning groups. Some of them are still meeting to discuss how to spend it, which is the worry.
Earl Howe
At least we have given them more notice this year than they have had in previous years. Quite often, winter pressure money has been released into the system only around Christmas. We have consciously tried to do it several months earlier. While I acknowledge the truth of what the noble Lord said in certain areas of the country, I hope and believe that by the time the pressure becomes significant, those crucial decisions will have been made.
NHS: Out-of-Hours Services
Lord Hunt of Kings Heath Excerpts(12 years, 8 months ago)
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Lord Hunt of Kings Heath
To ask Her Majesty’s Government when they became aware of NHS Direct’s concerns about the 111 service; what action they took; and what action they will now take to ensure the public can have confidence in out-of-hours advice services.
Lord Hunt of Kings Heath
My Lords, I beg leave to ask a Question of which I have given private notice. In doing so, I refer noble Lords to my health interests in the register.
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department of Health (Earl Howe)
My Lords, NHS England has closely monitored performance for all 111 providers, including NHS Direct, and reports weekly on performance to the Secretary of State for Health. NHS England will recommission NHS Direct’s 111 contracts and transfer staff who currently provide them to alternative providers. Patients should be reassured that they will continue to receive a safe and high-quality service when they call 111.
Lord Hunt of Kings Heath
My Lords, It is on this Government’s watch that a service staffed by unqualified call handlers has put patients at risk. When will Ministers take responsibility, and why did the noble Lord reject a plea from Dr Buckman, then chair of the BMA GP Committee, for the rollout of 111 to be slowed down because of risk to patient safety? Will the Government now agree to the release of all official advice given to Ministers on the service’s introduction?
Earl Howe
My Lords, the NHS 111 service is not unsafe—it is a safe service. In the vast majority of the country it has been provided very well for patients. We were confident that the service could be provided well, and so it has proved. The isolated cases where the service has fallen short are highly regrettable, but there is no issue about the quality of NHS Direct’s provision of NHS 111. I am afraid the issue there is that it got its sums wrong and cannot provide the service economically.
Care Bill [HL]
Lord Hunt of Kings Heath Excerpts(12 years, 8 months ago)
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Lord Hunt of Kings Heath
My Lords, this has been a very interesting debate. I open on today’s Committee by declaring interests as president-elect of GS1, chair of a foundation trust and a consultant trainer with Cumberlege Connections.
There is no doubt that the backdrop to our discussion is one of the availability of resources. As every day goes by in Committee, we have discovered new responsibilities being placed upon local authorities: the provision of information and advice; the assessment of adults’ and carers’ needs for support and the provision of that support; the implementation of the national eligibility criteria; the Dilnot proposals; and the assessment of self-funders.
I am sure that my noble friend Lord Lipsey is right. We have said a number of times, without really getting a response yet from the noble Earl, that the moment that self-funders become aware that they are essentially subsidising the people funded by local authorities, there will be an end to that. I am absolutely convinced that self-funders will express the view that they ain’t going to put up with it. I wonder whether the Government have thought through the implications of that. I doubt that they have, but those implications will have to be thought through. People will not find it acceptable to be paying above the local authority rate, then taking longer to get to the £72,000 cap, and then finding that the local authority will fund them only at its rate, with potential consequences for where they can be provided with care. It will possibly not be in the care home to which they have already been paying for their own resources. There is real concern about the financial implications of the Bill, which noble Lords all generally welcome, and the fact that the gap between the expectation and the reality could be very wide indeed.
We are of course confronted by the very difficult funding pressures that are on local authorities at the moment. Noble Lords have spoken eloquently about that. My noble friend Lady Bakewell pointed to the differential funding as a result of the Government’s change in formula as far as local authorities are concerned. That is why the Labour Party has called for £1.2 billion of NHS underspend to be transferred to social care over the next two years. However, that is just the start. We are going to see major demographic challenges, which will affect the NHS as much as social care. That is why my noble friend’s amendment has so much ingenuity in suggesting that the Office for Budget Responsibility be asked to complete a review of funding of adult social care by the end of 2014.
This has to be linked to NHS funding as well. I was very interested in a piece in the Independent this morning, emanating from Sir Bruce Keogh. It pointed out that for the NHS since 1948, the amount of money that has been made available has gone up by an average of about 4.5% a year. Now, he says, we are looking at no increase at all. I am not sure that the bodies for which the noble Earl’s department is responsible have woken up to that. For instance, NICE continues to produce guidance which, if implemented, would cost more money. The reports coming from royal colleges and the Keogh review of the 14 trusts talk a lot about staffing deficiencies, but the whole thrust still coming from these reports is to increase expenditure. There is genuine concern that we are talking up the expectation on health and social care knowing that at the moment we cannot see our way to finding where the resources are going to be. Without making this too much of a political debate, I thought that Mr Lansley’s comments in the run-up to the previous election in relation to the so-called death tax were very unfortunate in trying to get a dispassionate debate about how we are to find our way to funding health and social care in future.
This is a very interesting debate. My noble friend has done us a great service in allowing us to discuss this in depth. I hope there may be some sympathy from the Minister for the amendment.
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department of Health (Earl Howe)
My Lords, in some ways this is a reprise of an earlier debate we had in Committee, but none the less it has been valuable. I am grateful to all noble Lords who have contributed. I begin by saying to the noble Lord, Lord Warner, that I am in total agreement that care and support funding is vital. It is essential for the success of the reforms we have been discussing that these services are fully funded. I start by assuring the noble Lord on one key point, which is that the costs of these reforms have been clearly set out in the Bill’s impact assessment, as was our duty.
I listened with care to the case put by the noble Lord that the Office for Budget Responsibility should conduct a review of care and support funding. I do not believe that such a review would be necessary or desirable. As noble Lords will be aware, the Government recently announced the conclusion of the spending round for 2015-16. It is only right that decisions on care and support funding are taken by the Government at the same time as spending plans are set for all areas of government. It is the job of the Government to decide on priorities and what is affordable. Any further review by the OBR would clearly cut across that process.
There is also an issue about the OBR’s autonomy. The OBR performs its duties independently with complete discretion to determine the content of its publications and its programme of research and analysis. It would not be in keeping with the OBR’s duties or its independence to have the Secretary of State commission a report in the way the noble Lord, Lord Warner, suggests. The main duty of the Office for Budget Responsibility is to examine and report on the sustainability of public finances, including a statutory obligation to publish an annual fiscal sustainability report. The most recent of these was published this month and already includes long-term projections of care and support spending, taking account of the cap on care costs and the extension of the means test. A further report, such as the one proposed by this amendment, would risk duplication and repetition.
It will perhaps be helpful if I confirm that the projections set out in this OBR report are broadly in line with the department’s own, and it is on the basis of this analysis that I am in a position to say that the spending round settlement delivers the funding required for the care and support system. We have identified the financial burdens facing care and support, including those arising from this Bill and demographic pressure, and we are putting enough money in to maintain service levels. This will ensure that care and support can be protected and will allow us to deliver on the reforms set out here.
However, we need to do more than simply put more money into care and support. We also need to improve the way that health and care is delivered, and in particular how these services work together. That is why the settlement includes a £3.8 billion pooled health and care budget—the noble Lord, Lord Warner, referred to this—which will be given only on the basis that services are commissioned jointly and seamlessly between the local NHS and local councils.
This is, in many ways, a historic moment. What we intend to do represents a genuinely new departure. It will help to ensure everyone gets a properly joined-up service, with people getting the care they need from whoever is best placed to deliver it—whether that is the NHS or the local authority. Chris Ham from the King’s Fund has welcomed this, calling it,
“a much more ambitious approach to delivering integrated care and a real opportunity to improve the co-ordination of services for patients and service-users”.
We will ask local areas to work collaboratively together in drawing up plans for the use of this money, ensuring that the priorities of both the NHS and care and support are addressed. All plans will include a commitment to protect care and support, ensuring that this money goes where it is needed.
The settlement also provides the funding for the commitments and duties set out in this Bill, and factors in the growth in demand from an ageing population and a growing number of disabled people. With additional pressure on the system, we must ensure that the NHS and care and support services are working together to offer the best possible services for patients, while also addressing the growing demand on the system, which noble Lords have rightly referred to.
The creation of pooled budgets will help to achieve the more efficient use of resources in the system as a whole, driving down costs by tackling expensive pressure points in the system, like A&E, by improving preventive services, reducing unplanned hospital admissions and by allowing people to stay in their homes and live independently for longer. It is intended that £1 billion of the pooled fund will be linked to outcomes achieved, ensuring that local areas are incentivised and rewarded for achieving better outcomes, including those that could reduce financial pressure on the system.
Noble Lords have rightly referred to the pressure on local authority budgets. Of course, we recognise that the last spending round provided local government with a challenging settlement. That is why we took the decision to provide extra funding to help local authorities maintain access to services; that includes £1.1 billion in 2014-15. In fact, spending has been roughly flat over the period since 2010-11. The latest survey shows that councils are expecting a small increase in expenditure next year. The survey also shows that the vast majority of the savings that have been made have been efficiencies. Councils have largely been able to protect services. They should now, however, be looking at how they can transform care by innovating and exploring new ways of working. Many local authorities are achieving much greater integration between health and care services and thereby improving the care for those they look after.
The latest ADASS budget survey shows that only 5% of directors of adult social services believe that quality has suffered as a result of the savings they have made. Five per cent is regrettable but it is a lot less than some of the figures that we see printed in the media.
In 2012-13, bed days lost because of delays attributable to social care were nearly 50,000 fewer than in the previous year. One of the other criticisms one hears is that quality is getting worse in social care and that that is having an impact on the NHS. But if we are going to continue to make these sorts of improvements, we need radically to rethink how we deliver health and social care and move to a more integrated system.
Lord Hunt of Kings Heath
I accept the noble Earl’s point, which he has made before, that local authorities sometimes pay less than self-funders because the self-funders are paying for a premium service. Often, however, the service is the same. I wonder whether that is not a legitimisation of what happens. Most organisations representing self-funders feel that the higher premium they pay is actually subsidising the rates paid by local authorities. If the Government are saying that the lower rates are because of bulk purchasing, quite a lot of convincing will need to happen to make people feel confident that that is the case.
Lord Hunt of Kings Heath
My Lords, subject to later comments about funding and the issues raised by my noble friend Lord Beecham, I have a great deal of sympathy with my noble friend Lord Dubs in wanting to have some kind of transparent appeal decision. It is clear from our debates on the Bill that local authorities will be called upon to make decisions which will have a fundamental impact on people living in their local authority area—eligibility, care plans, personal budgets, support for carers, self-funders baseline assessment and many more. We know that this will be hard for many people and their families to navigate. At the moment, it appears that the Government are relying either on local authorities themselves to develop their own mechanism, which might not enjoy public confidence, or on referrals to the Local Government Ombudsman. As my noble friend Lord Dubs says, that would be on the basis of maladministration rather than, perhaps, on the facts of the case.
Judicial review is hardly an option for many people. The reduction in legal aid will have an impact on the ability of places such as law centres to take JR cases forward on behalf of clients. I am the patron of Birmingham Law Centre, which has had to close its doors. In the last few years, the law centre was able to undertake a number of JR cases but it is no longer there to do that. The availability of a simple, low-cost appeal system would command some support.
When I was DWP Minister, I attended a day at the Birmingham tribunal centre looking at how cases were conducted. I was impressed at the ability of the three-person panels to allow the complainant to put their case across in a fairly informal setting with decisions made pretty rapidly. We know that these tribunal systems have been used more frequently with the introduction of the new arrangements. They command some public confidence. While I do not want to add to the financial burden on the system as a whole, I wonder whether it would be cost effective, as my noble friend Lord Warner says, for there to be a simple, fast, low-cost system. This will give people some confidence that, where they felt that the local authority had not made a reasonable decision, there would be allowance for it to be reconsidered. I am sure that this is a matter for discussion between Committee and Report and perhaps the noble Earl would be prepared to meet with my noble friend to discuss this further.
Earl Howe
My Lords, I am pleased that this important issue has been raised. I hope that I can provide the noble Lord, Lord Dubs, with at least a measure of reassurance relating to his concerns. As he has explained, the purpose of Amendment 104ZE is to include in the Bill provision for adults to make an appeal to the First-tier Tribunal if they disagree with the local authority about its decisions relating to matters such as eligibility, financial assessments, care and support plans and other obligations under this Bill. Often the individuals who access the care system are some of the most vulnerable in our society and it can seem daunting to challenge the decision of the local authority. I entirely agree that it is important that such people have the opportunity to make their voice heard if they feel that the local authority has reached the wrong decision in their case and that their argument is given the fullest consideration before a transparent, fair outcome is reached. The changes which the Bill would bring about will result in many more people being brought into contact with their local authority. This is why it is appropriate that we are now reviewing the current arrangements regarding complaints.
The current complaints arrangements for adult care and support were reformed in 2009 and are set out in regulations. The regulations require the local authority to have a publicised arrangement for the consideration and timely handling of complaints. Local authorities have flexibility in developing their own procedure for dealing with complaints. Each local authority will have a different process, and we appreciate that local variation may result in varying user experiences.
If a complainant is not satisfied with the response from the local authority, they are then able to refer the case to the Local Government Ombudsman, as has been mentioned. The Local Government Ombudsman is independent of the local authority. It can investigate complaints about whether the decision-making process has been conducted appropriately and can make a recommendation to the local authority.
Earl Howe
Certainly, I anticipate that the results of the review will be available before the Bill has concluded its passage through Parliament. I stand to be corrected on that but I think I am right. In any case, changes to the way in which complaints are handled can be made through regulations under existing legislation, so I think that provides the necessary flexibility.
Lord Hunt of Kings Heath
Would the noble Earl find it helpful if, on Report, we introduced an order-making power in the primary legislation that is specifically built around the Bill?
Earl Howe
That might prove helpful but I will take advice on it. We do not want to duplicate powers that already exist in legislation. However, if we decide that changes are needed, we need to make sure that they can be expedited properly. I am advised that the consultation will close in October this year and that the review of complaints arrangements, of which the consultation is a part, will conclude in the winter. Therefore, if changes need to be made to the Bill, they will need to be made in another place.
The noble Lord, Lord Dubs, said that in our response to the Joint Committee it is vital to consider redress. Of course, the principle of that is not in dispute. Our review of complaints arrangements is in line with our response to the Joint Committee’s recommendation, as I hope he acknowledges. In answer to the noble Lord, Lord Warner, I agree with him that there are likely to be teething problems as this system is established. That is precisely why we felt the need to review the current system. We will aim to ensure that any new mechanisms are in place before implementing the new system, as I have already indicated.
With that, I hope that I have provided at least some reassurance to noble Lords opposite that we take this issue seriously. We understand the concerns that have prompted this amendment and will certainly give further consideration to the noble Lord’s idea of a tribunal system in the light of the outcome of the consultation. I hope therefore that for the time being he will feel content to withdraw his amendment.
Lord Hunt of Kings Heath
My Lords, that was a pretty persuasive case, to which I hope the noble Baroness will be sympathetic. The noble Lord made the particular point that early intervention will lead to better outcomes. That could be a message that relates to this Bill as a whole. The noble Baroness knows that we were not able to have our debate on services for deaf people last week because of the lateness of the hour. I wonder whether, between now and Report, she would be prepared to write to me about how she thinks this Bill might specifically relate to deaf people. Clearly, some of the issues the noble Lord has raised are apposite to deaf people in terms of early identification and assessment. I would not expect her to answer that point today, but it would be extremely helpful if she were able to write to me on it in advance of us coming back to the QSD in the early autumn.
Baroness Northover
My Lords, I thank the noble Lord, Lord Low, for his amendment. It raises some important issues. He emphasises that local authorities need to follow up those who have been newly certified as sight-impaired or severely sight-impaired in a timely manner where they have indicated that they wish to be registered or to have an assessment of their needs for care and support. Indeed, we have great sympathy with his concerns. We accept that people who have acquired a visual impairment should have an early opportunity to have access to information and advice so that they can adapt to their situation as quickly as possible and obtain any aids and support that will help them to manage their lives better.
As we have discussed, Clause 4 requires local authorities to make available universal information and advice on care and support, which will of course be relevant here. But people who lose their sight suddenly can also need more time to come to terms with their loss and engage with the support that might be available to them. If that is the case, it might be more appropriate to have a greater degree of flexibility around the timescales for when that support is offered or re-offered. Individuals differ in the way that they respond. We therefore believe that it would be better if the detail of this was covered in guidance, as it is for deaf-blind people, rather than in the Bill or in the regulations. In response to the noble Lord, Lord Hunt, there may well be a parallel here for deaf people, I am happy to write to him in answer to his questions.
Covering this in guidance would allow greater flexibility to update and adapt the arrangements. I can assure the noble Lord, Lord Low, that officials intend to work closely with the RNIB and other stakeholders to ensure that the guidance is as comprehensive as possible. He is absolutely right that the person needs to be at the heart of that guidance. In the light of what I have said to both noble Lords, I hope that the noble Lord, Lord Low, will be happy to withdraw his amendment.
Lord Hunt of Kings Heath
My Lords, very briefly, I support my noble friend. In a sense, we have already had two debates on the employment practices of providers that are contracted by the local authority. The first was on Clause 5, regarding the local authority’s market-making role. We have also discussed under Clause 80 whether the Government, through regulations, will ensure that the CQC’s oversight of local authorities’ commissioning will be treated as a major priority.
The challenge for us on Report will be to deal with this issue by bringing it all together. There is no doubt that there is real concern about the employment practices of a number of companies that work in the adult social care sector and the lack of monitoring by local authorities in their commissioning. One way or another, the Bill will be very much enhanced if we can get to grips with this problem of poor employment practice. I have no doubt whatever that the general use of zero-hours contracts and the fact that those workers who are often low-paid have to pay the cost of travel themselves and are not paid for the time they take to travel from client to client leads inevitably to an impact on the quality of care, however worthy those people are. We will have a great opportunity on Report to do something about it and we will do so.
Earl Howe
My Lords, these are indeed serious issues and I am grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Warner, for raising them. Those who work directly providing care and support play a vital role in helping and supporting vulnerable people. Organisations that provide care must do all that they can to make sure that their workforce provides compassionate care and that people are treated with dignity, consistent with well-being principles.
Although the majority of care and support provided is good, I am aware that in some cases the practice of both providers and commissioners of care risks a negative impact on the well-being of those cared for. For example, the recent report of the Low Pay Commission has warned of lack of compliance with the national minimum wage, such as by not paying for travelling time between appointments. I am also aware that some local authorities’ contracts with care providers may lead to inappropriate practices, such as very short visits.
I agree entirely with the noble Lord’s intent to see a move away from such practices, which can undermine well-being, independence and dignity, as well as disempower those responsible for providing care and support. The question is how to do that. I believe that addressing these issues requires a broad range of approaches, some of which are already included in the Bill, but I am doubtful that further legislation is appropriate.
The terms and conditions of care and support workers, including pay, are set by employers within the existing requirements of employment legislation, with the same enforcement through HM Revenue and Customs, penalties and sanctions as in other sectors. All providers must, of course, pay at least the national minimum wage. This is law, and failure to meet the requirement is never acceptable. However, the law need not be repeated in the Bill or, indeed, in separate regulations that effectively duplicate those that we already have.
Where care and support is funded by the state, it is allocated through local authorities, which must ensure that the providers they commission from offer good value for money and a high-quality service. Clause 5 establishes a new duty on local authorities to promote a sustainable, diverse and high-quality market for care and support in their area, and is clear that an authority’s own commissioning practices must be in line with this duty. The Department of Health is working with the Association of Directors of Adult Social Services, the Think Local, Act Personal partnership and local authorities to embed this duty and improve commissioning generally.
We are providing firm leadership in this area. The Minister of State for Care Services, my colleague Norman Lamb, recently announced a home care challenge, whereby we will work with the sector to generate new ideas around improving quality in home care services and local authority commissioning. The department is also offering support to local authorities to develop their market-shaping capacity, and encourage high-quality provision and an understanding of market capacity and capabilities.
I am sure that the noble Lord, Lord Warner, will appreciate, without my needing to say this, that wages and associated employment practices are not the only determinant of service quality and a range of factors affect care workers having the right attitude, values and skills. The Department of Health is working on a number of initiatives with partners to develop a code of conduct and a recommended minimum training standard. Further work includes supporting workforce training through a workforce development fund and working with Skills for Care and the National Skills Academy for Social Care to improve the capability and skills of care workers. For the first time, this will now include support and training for personal assistants as well as people working for more formal providers. The department is also working with Skills for Care to develop a sector compact to promote culture change and skills development in the sector.
More broadly, through registration and monitoring, the Care Quality Commission enforces standards in this sector. The CQC requires that employers ensure that staff are well managed and have the opportunity to develop and improve their skills. Once services are registered, the CQC continues to monitor and inspect them against essential standards.
Lord Hunt of Kings Heath
I have never really been able to tempt the noble Earl to comment on the priority to be given by the CQC to the role of the providers and the responsibilities of local authorities in commissioning services. Can I tempt him to say more? Clause 80 clearly states:
“The Commission must, in respect of such English local authorities as may be prescribed … conduct reviews of the provision of such adult social services provided or commissioned by the authorities”.
Would the Government be willing to say to the CQC, “We will prescribe regulations that make it clear that this will indeed be a priority”? I have long felt that the way to deal with this is through the CQC’s own monitoring of how local authorities commission those services. It would be a way through if the Government were prepared to say that. The more I listen to our debates, the more I begin to think that this ought to be, of all the things that the CQC does, its number one priority.
NHS: Accident and Emergency Services
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Lord Hunt of Kings Heath
To ask Her Majesty’s Government what immediate action they are taking to meet the pressures on accident and emergency services in order to avert a crisis.
Lord Hunt of Kings Heath
My Lords, I beg leave to ask a Question of which I have given private notice. In doing so, I remind the House of my health interests in the register.
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department of Health (Earl Howe)
My Lords, the Government recognise the severity of this issue and acknowledge that there was a dip in performance. We are taking robust action to address these issues and the 95% standard on four-hour A&E waiting times has now been met for the 12 consecutive weeks ending 14 July. The Government and NHS England are now looking at how we address the long-term issues facing A&E and the wider NHS.
Lord Hunt of Kings Heath
My Lords, the crisis in A&E happened on this Government’s watch as a result of the disastrous structural changes that they embarked on, the drastic cuts in social services and the disastrous launch of the 111 service. The noble Earl has talked about robust action being taken, but he will be aware that yesterday the Health Select Committee made it clear that local urgent care boards are simply not getting to grips with the problem. We are therefore heading for another very difficult winter, with many services at breaking point. Will Ministers take responsibility? Why, when the noble Earl talks about robust action, is the Government’s emergency care review only to be implemented next spring, six months too late?
Earl Howe
My Lords, I do not share the noble Lord’s analysis of the problem. A&E departments are currently meeting targets, but the long-term pressures have been building up for many, many years. Over the past decade, emergency admissions have risen by 35% and an extra 1 million patients have attended A&E compared to three years ago. This is not anything recent. The Government’s reforms will, if anything, help to ease the pressure because doctors now have the freedom to provide the health services their patients really need. The action we are taking in the immediate term is to encourage doctors and all the key players in the health system to get together in urgent care boards to make sure that next winter we see a much easier picture.
National Health Service (Licence Exemptions, etc.) Regulations 2013
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Lord Hunt of Kings Heath
My Lords, I am sure that the whole House is indebted to the noble Earl for his lengthy explanation of the order before us. I just want to ask him three or four questions.
I noticed in the Explanatory Memorandum that there is an intention to review how licences are working and that it is to take place during the next Parliament. I must say that I thought it was rather presumptuous of officials to assume that this will be done. Of course, it is for me to point out that Governments cannot bind their successors to action to be taken, so I look forward to a Bill that will perhaps do away with some of the requirements that will be necessary.
The noble Earl will not be surprised if I ask him a question about the NHS Trust Development Authority. Reference was made in his remarks and in the Explanatory Memorandum to the relationship of the NHS TDA to the other regulatory bodies. Can he update the House on how long he now thinks that the NHS TDA is likely to be in existence? Of course, this relates back to the question we debated in the Bill, which is: what is his expectation in relation to non-foundation trusts and the pipeline, if you like, towards foundation trust application? Can he also give an indication of which services are likely to be designated as commissioner-requested services?
Paragraph 7.15 of the Explanatory Memorandum says that Regulation 7,
“exempts any provider that is not required to register with the CQC from the requirement to hold a licence from Monitor … This exemption would cover, for example, providers of ophthalmic services”.
Can the Minister tell us the rationale for why ophthalmic services are excluded? Is it to do with the fact that they are regulated in a different way?
The Explanatory Memorandum, at paragraph 7.16, says that NHS England is,
“well placed to enforce standards in relation to primary medical and dental services”.
As there has been a considerable amount of debate in the last few months about the quality of primary medical services and out-of-hours performance, can the Minister say anything about how NHS England will go about its business in ensuring standards in primary medical services? There are questions about whether it has the capacity to do that, and any reassurance on this subject would be welcome.
Finally, on exemptions, as I understand it, CCGs, when commissioning services from GP practices, are not exempted by Regulation 5. However, if the practice is large and goes over the £10 million threshold under Regulation 8, it may be covered, whereas if its turnover is below £10 million it is exempt under Regulation 8. The Minister will know that when we debated the Bill that became the Health and Social Care Act 2012 we had a great deal of debate about conflicts of interest. I have never been satisfied that that problem has been resolved satisfactorily. If, under these arrangements, CCGs are commissioning services from GP practices—remember that those practices are members of the CCG, so there is always a potential conflict of interest—I would have been more reassured if there had not been an exemption for practices with a turnover of less than £10 million. I would have thought that most traditional GP practices would fall below that threshold.
I understand the rationale for not wanting to catch small businesses under the regime, but does the Minister accept that when CCGs are commissioning services essentially from themselves—in the sense that GP practices make up the CCG—greater safeguards should be built into the regulations?
Other than that, these regulations are unexceptionable. I should, of course, remind the House of my interests in health, as president-elect of GS1, chair of a foundation trust and a consultant and trainer with Cumberlege Connections.
Earl Howe
I am grateful to the noble Lord for his questions, some of which I shall write to him about. He first asked me about the review of licensing exemptions that the department plans to carry out in 2016-17. He is, of course, right to say that no Government can commit their successor, of whatever colour, and it will be open to a successor Government, if they are of his party, to revise that aspiration. However, we think it right that after such an interval, the department should look to see whether the exemptions are continuing to prove appropriate, and if they are not it should propose amendments. I do not think that is a very controversial aim.
On the working life of the NHS Trust Development Authority, it will not have escaped the noble Lord’s notice that the original lifespan that we marked out for the TDA will now be exceeded. We have quite consciously, and rightly, determined that the process for approving foundation trusts should be extended, bearing in mind the outcome of the Francis review and the need for trusts, some of which by their very nature will prove more difficult to bring to foundation status, to focus on those aspects of the Francis report which need to be addressed if they are to be worthy of foundation trust status. Therefore, the length of life of the NHS TDA will undoubtedly extend into 2015. I cannot be more specific than that at this stage. It is a special health authority established by order. We will review that order in the normal course of things in three years’ time to assess whether there is a need for the authority. That is mentioned in the Explanatory Memorandum to the establishment order.
The noble Lord asked me why ophthalmic services are exempt. It is because they are not subject to registration by the CQC. We will of course keep those exemptions under review, as I have said. If evidence emerges to suggest that we should extend the licensing or make further exemptions, we will do so. When I spoke to the ophthalmic sector, it said that it did not see the need for a licence from Monitor, and we have taken account of its views.
The noble Lord asked me for some examples of commissioner-requested services. It is difficult for me to do that because they will be services which commissioners deem are in need of additional regulation to protect patients’ interests. Monitor has published guidance for commissioners to help them determine the considerations around commissioner-requested services. It will very much depend on the needs of the local population and what services are considered to be indispensable in a particular area.
The noble Lord asked me why GPs and dentists are exempt. As he knows, providers of primary medical services and primary dental services under contract to NHS England will be exempt from the requirement to hold a licence. As NHS England holds the contract with providers of those services, it is clearly well placed to place requirements on those providers that are similar to some of those in the licence. An agreement between Monitor and NHS England will underpin the arrangements. Monitor and NHS England are currently working on that. GPs and dentists sometimes provide other types of services under contracts with commissioners other than NHS England, such as minor surgery clinics or diagnostic testing services. They will be subject to licensing in respect of these services but at the same time be eligible for the de minimis threshold exemption. In addition, all providers of designated commissioner-requested services will require a licence, even if they would otherwise qualify for an exemption. It is therefore conceivable that a service provided by a GP practice might be considered a commissioner-requested service, but that is a speculative assumption on my part.
The noble Lord referred to conflicts of interest when such services are commissioned from GP practices by clinical commissioning groups. As I am sure he knows, there are clear rules around conflicts of interest. While GP practices are, by definition, members of a clinical commissioning group, the commissioning process must be done as much at arm’s length from an individual GP practice as possible. If someone in the clinical commissioning group has a direct personal or professional interest in the decision being taken, he or she must follow the rules surrounding that conflict.
The noble Lord asked me how NHS England is going to maintain standards in primary medical services. I have largely covered that point. NHS England will monitor the quality of care being delivered under the contract via the local area teams. Clinical commissioning groups are themselves engaged on peer-review exercises of their member practices which will, in turn, inform NHS England’s assessments.
I think I have answered all the noble Lord’s questions, but if I have not I will follow up in writing.
NHS: Children’s Congenital Heart Services
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Lord Hunt of Kings Heath
My Lords, I refer the House to my health interests as set out in the register of interests. In the mantra of the market in the health service, which the noble Earl and his party are so wedded to, can he tell me when the Competition Commission can be expected to intervene in this issue, given that under the market mantra the decision to reduce the number of children’s heart centres reduces choice?
Earl Howe
My Lords, before I answer that, perhaps I may be so bold as to offer the noble Lord my congratulations on his silver wedding anniversary. I recognise why he has asked that question. It is too early to prejudge the final outcome of NHS England’s review, and I should stress that there is no preconceived result in its head. What I can say is that NHS England will need to engage with all key stakeholders throughout this review, including around any competition considerations.
Care Bill [HL]
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Lord Hunt of Kings Heath
My Lords, the Opposition strongly support the intention behind deferred payments. I hope therefore that the Minister will be able to give a serious response to my noble friend Lord Lipsey, because the issues before us are how the scheme is going to operate, the complexity that is necessarily involved and the ability of local authorities to do the right thing. Around all those matters, there remain some question marks.
While I would not necessarily support my noble friend on the specification of the interest rate, there are questions to be answered about how the Minister thinks the scheme will operate among the many local authorities which will be charged with discharging the scheme. For instance, on the question asked by the noble Baroness, Lady Barker, we could see large differences emerge between different local authorities. That would be unfortunate, and I would be interested to hear from the Minister what work his department has done in trying to model how it thinks local authorities will operate the deferred payment scheme.
The argument for a model deferred payment scheme is pretty persuasive. Even if local authorities are to have discretion—I do not disagree with that—in operating their own scheme, surely the production by the Minister’s department of a model scheme would ensure greater consistency and save local authorities a great deal of work in having to work out the details of their own scheme. Given all their other responsibilities, as much support as possible should be given to local authorities. A model payment scheme would be very useful.
I have two points to make on my noble friend’s Amendment 92ZZY. First, it is very specific on the loans being made available for the purchase of point-of-need insurance policies secured against an adult’s legal or beneficial interest in their home. That raises the whole issue of the insurance market. I again ask the Minister to reassure the House that he is confident that the insurance industry is prepared to come to market with suitable products. I know that he commented on this last week, but there remains some doubt about whether insurance companies really wish to operate in this market. Given that the whole thesis of Dilnot is that capping cost would lead to the development of an insurance market, this is something that we need to debate fully and be reassured on.
On Amendment 92ZZZ and the commencement date, I agree with my noble friends Lord Lipsey and Lord Warner about the complexity of what local authorities are being asked to do. We of course need to consider delay, but I do not understand why a different date has been chosen for the deferred payment scheme in contrast to other parts of the Dilnot implementation. It does not seem to make sense and, I would have thought, would be very confusing for people involved.
That brings me back to the second part of Amendment 92ZZY, which is the issue of regulated independent financial advice being made available to a person considering taking out a deferred payment. Surely the Minister will have been convinced by now that the financial consequences of decisions made by people in relation to the provisions in this Bill will be momentous. I would have hoped that by now he would recognise that the assurance that can be given through independent financial advice would be an important safeguard. Unless we have that, I fear that many people will have to make very difficult decisions, involving potentially large sums of money, without the necessary advice. That would detract from the generally consensual way in which we need to go forward. I hope that the Minister will perhaps have some good news for us on that front.
Lord Campbell-Savours
My Lords, I intervene briefly to ask the Minister a rather pedantic question. Subsections in Clause 35 all use the word “may”. There is no actual requirement for the Government to introduce regulations and therefore for local authorities to be placed in a position whereby they can charge. Why has it been left open, rather than using the word “shall”? If we could take the wording as meaning “shall”, can we assume that each further instance of the word “may”—that is to say:
“The regulations may specify costs … The regulations may require or permit adequate security…The authority may not charge interest under regulations…The regulations may make other provisions”—
is part of a whole package? Or, if “may” does mean “may”, might only individual parts of this clause be introduced, as opposed to the whole clause? For example, subsection (2) states that:
“The regulations may specify costs which are, or which are not, to be regarded as administrative costs for the purposes of subsection (1)(b)”.
If that particular part of the clause were not implemented, it would leave local authorities open to decide for themselves what the administrative costs could be. Whatever internal reasons they may have—and my noble friend Lord Lipsey referred earlier to the reluctance of local authorities—should local authorities have that ability to be flexible? I am seeking to establish whether, if this is all going to happen and we should read “shall” for “may”, all the subsections of Clause 35 will be implemented and that isolated subsections will not be introduced in the regulations. That might create difficulties that we are not foreseeing during the passage of the Bill.
Lord Hunt of Kings Heath
My Lords, the noble Earl has said, and I am sure it is welcome, that the Government intend to set a maximum interest rate to be charged by local authorities. Does he agree that, since it is a crucial part of a deferred payment scheme, setting a rate nationally is consistent with a much more uniform approach? That is why I would have thought my noble friend’s amendment would be a sensible way forward. It is not being mandatory and does not go as far as my noble friend Lord Warner, but simply asks for a model scheme to be introduced.
Earl Howe
We are absolutely on side with the suggestion that there needs to be a uniform approach to the essentials of this scheme. That includes a national maximum interest rate. I suggest to the noble Lord, Lord Warner, that we do not need a national body running an all-singing, all-dancing, nationally mandated deferred payment scheme. We want to build on the good work already going on out there. The noble Lord made a fair point that only a minority of local authorities currently operate deferred payment schemes. Of those that do, many provide us with a very good basis on which to build and share knowledge with other local authorities. That can start now before the regulations are drawn up. We can and will start work with local authorities to ensure that they are gearing themselves up in the right way to approach this task.
Baroness Wilkins
My Lords, I strongly support the amendments of the noble Baroness, Lady Campbell, and the noble Lord, Lord Low. The noble Baroness has been very keen in pursuing these issues for the past five years and her tenacity has been outstanding. I am sure we all recognise that. She has argued comprehensively and excellently for these amendments. We all know that there is huge stress in moving home and, if you are a person in need of care, that stress is beyond words. As the noble Baroness said, it is a monumental risk. I hope that the Committee will wholeheartedly support these amendments.
Lord Hunt of Kings Heath
My Lords, I, too, congratulate the noble Baroness, Lady Campbell, on her amendments and on her persuasive advocacy in this area. We debated the issue of equivalent services at Second Reading and the noble Earl said in his response that he felt that when people move from one local authority to another their circumstances are, in many cases, likely to change and that after a move it would not always be appropriate for them to have services equivalent to those that they had before. However, the noble Baroness has answered this point—her amendment has moved on—and she is not asking for an equivalence of services but an equivalence of outcome. That is a very important difference that noble Lords ought to mark. It is a persuasive case. Of course it is not possible to say that a new local authority must provide exactly the same services in the same way, but it must be right to strive to ensure that the outcome for the person who has moved is the same. I have a great deal of sympathy with her amendments and support those which are designed to ensure a smooth transition.
The noble Lord, Lord Low, made an interesting contribution in relation to ordinary residence and the number of disputes that currently arise in relation to it. As he said, Clause 38 and its associated regulations are welcome. However, he is surely right to seek to ensure that the regulations give absolute clarity and I would welcome the Minister’s reassurance on that.
I welcome the intervention of the noble Lord, Lord Wigley. He should not feel inhibited from intervening in Bills which he thinks apply only to England. His experience is welcome and I hope that he will continue to take part in our debates at future stages of the Bill. I have always found cross-border issues complex. No doubt the Minister will now move many amendments to deal with the issue. However, the substantive point is that, as the four countries of the UK seem to be going their separate ways in relation to health and social care, it is important that we ensure that people moving to and from different parts of the UK are able to do so without a gap in services. In that sense, I welcome the noble Lord’s intervention.
My Amendment 92ZZADA is concerned with the circumstances of carers in relation to a move from one authority to another. Essentially, the amendment requires the second local authority to provide a written explanation where the cost to the second authority of meeting the carer’s eligible needs is different from the first. That explanation should be provided to the carer, the adult needing care and any other person to whom the carer asks the authority to provide an explanation. I am seeking to mirror for the carer the requirement contained in Clause 36(10) to explain the difference in the cost of meeting the eligible needs of an adult when they move from one authority to another.
Perhaps I may probe the Minister about what would happen in a scenario where a carer receiving local authority support moves to a new local authority area but the person receiving care does not. Does the Bill cover this situation? Would a review of the support plan of the carer and the care plan of the person being cared for be triggered? Essentially, on the issue of portability, I want to ensure that the circumstances relating to carers are as well understood as they are to the person making the move. If the Minister cannot specifically respond to that point, perhaps she will write to me between now and Report stage.
Care Bill [HL]
Lord Hunt of Kings Heath Excerpts(12 years, 8 months ago)
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Lord Mackay of Clashfern
My Lords, when this issue was discussed previously I had the feeling that Monitor had at least some claim to having the kind of expertise which goes some distance in this area whereas, as far as I could understand it, CQC did not seem to. I entirely agree with the noble Lord, Lord Warner, that what either of them has at the moment is probably unequal to the task of seeking out exactly what is going on and seeing how great the risks are. It is pretty obvious that to understand the risks in these financial transactions is a very difficult task. We have seen examples, not particularly in this area but in others, where serious risks have emerged which were not suspected until very close to the time of their emergence.
I also agree with the view that one great factor in the care regime is the number of local authorities that are to be involved. Some degree of understanding at least the variation across these 152 authorities is essential. During the workings of the Joint Committee, I was impressed by the skill of some of the local authority representatives we had before us but they were in quite a particular position in relation to their work. I am not sure that their knowledge, expertise and feel for the situation necessarily goes right across the sector. I do not at all decry the valuable work that local authorities do but the variety of tasks assigned to them is very great and the care situation must be among the most difficult of their responsibilities.
Lord Hunt of Kings Heath
My Lords, this is an important debate and the collapse of Southern Cross has brought it home to us how the risk of financial failure is likely to be a continuing problem in this sector. That is why it is important to understand whether the regulatory regime that the Government are proposing will be robust enough and whether it will have access to the kind of information that will enable the regulator to take a view on the viability of those companies which seek to do business in this area.
We are going back partly to our earlier debates when we discussed the new failure regime. At that time, I referred to the Department of Health factsheet that we were given, which said that the new failure regime will give regulators clear roles in tackling failure. However, I do not think that is actually so in practice. According to the department, the Care Quality Commission will focus on exposing problems and requiring action while Monitor and the NHS Trust Development Authority, which deal with non-foundation trusts, will focus on intervening if a poorly performing provider is unable to resolve the situation by working with commissioners. As we have heard today, the CQC retains enforcement powers for social care, general practice and independent sector providers. This whole picture is very confusing and in his Mid Staffordshire inquiry Robert Francis made it clear that regulatory complexity can contribute to system failings.
I am still unclear about the interrelationship between Monitor, CQC and the NHS Trust Development Authority so as to know whether they are going to work together to ensure that problems are acted on. I am still unclear whether when Monitor and the NHS Trust Development Authority are asked to intervene as a result of the CQC’s concern about findings in relation to safety and quality, they simply carry out the instructions of the CQC or have to go through the same process to satisfy themselves as public bodies with specific statutory duties—certainly in the case of Monitor—whether they share the concern about quality or simply take the CQC’s word on trust. As the actions of these regulators are likely to be tested in the courts, one way or another, clarity at this stage would be very welcome indeed.
My noble friend makes the case that, because of its expertise and experience, Monitor would be a better bet for looking at financial issues to do with care providers. It is very difficult to understand why bits of the system have been dealt with differently and the CQC is considered acceptable in relation to private care providers for adult social care and so on but not for NHS foundation trusts. The Government have brought a rather curious mish-mash to your Lordships’ House.
On my noble friend’s second amendment, I share his view and am not sure that NHS England is the right body to have a duty to scrutinise the commissioning plans of local authorities. However, I very much agree with my noble friend that it is very important that there is a method of checking on the performance of local authorities in their commissioning of adult social care services. My noble friend mentioned Winterbourne View as an example of where a number of local authorities placed clients but having placed them paid no attention to their experience. That was a salutary warning about the problems of local authority commissioning.
I wonder whether the CQC ought to be the body which undertakes that responsibility. Clause 5 sets out that the local authority is responsible for promoting diversity and quality in provision of services. The local authority clearly has responsibility for ensuring that there are sustainable providers in the market. I also refer my noble friend to Clause 80 which sets out the CQC’s responsibilities in performance assessment and performance ratings. My noble friend will see that under Clause 80(2) the proposed new Clause 46(3) of the Health and Social Care Act 2008 sets out that:
“The Commission must, in respect of such English local authorities as may be prescribed … conduct reviews of the provision of such adult social service provided or commissioned by the authorities as may be prescribed”.
My reading is that the CQC is given powers to do what my noble friend wants. The question—we debated this when we debated Clause 5—is the extent to which the Government are so going to prescribe. I would like to hear from the noble Earl, if possible, that the Government have reflected on our earlier debate and have come to the view that it would be a very good thing to prescribe that all local authorities should have their commissioning performance reviewed by the CQC as a matter of priority.
My noble friend raised the question of Winterbourne View. We debated the problem of the contracts local authorities have set with private providers where they are contracting staff on very low rates of pay. These are the same providers which in some cases are giving 15-minute periods of service, with staff on zero-hour contracts and often having to pay the cost of their travel. I do not believe that those are the right circumstances in which a quality service could be given. That is why I believe that the CQC should prioritise the commissioning responsibilities of local authorities. If it did, it would answer the question posed by my noble friend.
Earl Howe
My Lords, I begin with an observation that I hope is incontrovertible: it is unacceptable for care users to be left without the services that they need, particularly where the interruption of those services, or the worry that this might happen, could badly affect their well-being and place unacceptable stress on them and their families, friends and carers. As the noble Lord, Lord Hunt, rightly observed, the collapse of Southern Cross in the autumn of 2012 highlighted the importance of this principle. Although no one was ultimately left without the services they needed, many people suffered from a considerable amount of stress and anxiety as a result of worries over whether the services that they, their friend or their relative relied on would stop being provided. At the time, there were no formal mechanisms for the Government to ensure that that was the case.
The Government are therefore introducing, through the Bill, a new system of financial oversight of the 50 to 60 providers of care and support that are the most difficult to replace. The system will provide local authorities with early warning that one of those providers is likely to fail or could fail, and will support authorities to ensure that, if a provider does fail, the continuity of care is maintained. The Care Quality Commission will assess the financial sustainability of all providers that are part of the regime, ensure that providers are taking adequate steps to tackle any risks to the sustainability of their business and support local authorities to tackle the risk of individuals suffering gaps in the services that they rely on when providers fail.
I sympathise with the arguments set out by the noble Lord, Lord Patel of Bradford, in favour of this function being undertaken by Monitor. He should be under no misapprehension: the decision about which regulator should undertake this role was a finely balanced one. This would have been a new role for either regulator. For the CQC, although its existing powers extended to some financial issues, it had not in practice used them significantly. For Monitor, this would have been an extension into a new market and type of provider with which it had had no previous experience. In the end, we came to the view that the CQC was the most appropriate body to perform this market oversight function, for three key reasons. First, this approach ensures that there will be a single regulator for care and support providers. The financial performance of a provider, whether exceptionally good or exceptionally poor, can be a leading indicator of serious quality failures. The CQC will be able to integrate quality and financial information and assess both together.
Secondly, the CQC is better placed to implement this regime because of the existing working relationships that it already has with providers through its current role. This should also contribute to minimising the regulatory burden on providers by ensuring that they have to work with and provide information to only one regulator rather than two. Thirdly, the CQC already has established working relationships with local authority commissioners. The main objective of this regime is to support local authorities in managing the failure of a difficult-to-replace provider. The CQC’s existing relationships will be invaluable in assisting it in performing this function effectively.
The noble Lord, Lord Hunt, questioned that rationale and pointed particularly to the advantages of Monitor undertaking the role, not least because of its current functions. I am the first to accept that Monitor has existing expertise in financial regulation, but it does not have experience in the care and support services market. The nature of Monitor’s licensing regime differs from this market oversight role in two key ways.
Lord Hunt of Kings Heath
Is the Minister satisfied that the CQC will be able to have access to sufficient information about the ownership of these companies? To pick up the point made by my noble friend, ultimately, when a home is at risk of going down, there is a danger that the interests of shareholders are put before the interests of the residents. Clearly, issues to do with ownership become very important there.
Earl Howe
The noble Lord makes an extremely important point, and one that has not been lost on us. We recognise that ownership structures can be extremely complex and that true ownership can be hidden from normal view. It is one of the factors that we will have to build into our discussions with the CQC. I do not pretend that there is an easy answer because some businesses quite consciously and deliberately set themselves up to ensure that it is very difficult to probe the true state of their financial affairs and their true ownership. As and when I can come back to the noble Lord on where we are with that, I will be very happy to do so.
Lord Patel of Bradford
My Lords, I have put my name to Amendment 94 in the name of the noble Lord, Lord Patel. I do not think that I can add to the detailed and clear exposition that the noble Lord has provided. I know that the amendment is slightly lengthy, but it is also very logical and clear—I understood it very clearly, so that is a bonus. I welcome the intention behind Clauses 55 to 63, which enable parents and young people to request a child’s needs assessment. Clause 56, on requirement’s for a child’s need assessment, states:
“A child’s needs assessment must include an assessment of … (a) the outcomes that the child wishes to achieve in day-to-day life”.
What is the intention behind “outcomes”? What outcomes are we looking at?
Lord Hunt of Kings Heath
My Lords, it was remiss of me not to declare an interest during our debate today as president-elect of GS1, chair of a foundation trust and consultant trainer with Cumberlege Connections.
Perhaps I, too, may raise the connection of this Bill with the Children and Families Bill. As my noble friend Lord Warner said, with the Care Bill applying to adults from the age of 18 and the Children and Families Bill setting the framework for children and young people up to the age of 25, there is a clear overlap in their jurisdiction in the context of social care provision. Education, health and care plans under the Children and Families Bill also include an assessment of a child or young person’s social care needs, which means that young people between the ages of 18 and 25 may be eligible both for an EHC plan and an adult care and support plan. That seems to reinforce my noble friend Lord Warner’s comments.
My understanding—perhaps the Minister could confirm this—is that the Government are considering bringing forward amendments to the Children and Families Bill to make sure that the two link together. If that is so, the problem that we have is that the Children and Families Bill will not go into Grand Committee until we come back in October, whereas this Bill should have cleared the House by about the fourth week in October. It would be very disappointing if we, in debating this Bill, were not able to see the changes that the Government were going to make to the Children and Families Bill so that we could make sure from our perspective that the two hung together. Can the Minister assure us that, if the Government are contemplating some amendments, we could see them so that we could debate them within the context of this Bill?
Earl Howe
My Lords, I thank Members of the Committee, and especially the noble Lord, Lord Patel, for a debate which illustrates the significance of transition to young people and their families and the need to get the legal framework right for them.
As we have heard, these amendments cover a range of issues. In respect of Amendments 92D, 98 and 100, I have listened with interest to concerns about the absence of a requirement that transition assessment should take place at a particular age. We are in agreement that the timing of assessment is crucial, but this is essentially a question of approach.
The Care Bill proposes that two tests be used to ensure that assessment takes place at the right time for each young person or carer. We believe that this is preferable to rigid timescales which take no account of an individual’s needs or circumstances. First, a local authority may assess a young person, their carer or a young carer where it appears to the local authority that the child or carer is likely to have needs upon the child turning 18. This is to be used in conjunction with the second consideration, whether assessment would be of “significant benefit”. This recognises that a one-size-fits-all approach is not in the best interests of young people or their carers.
Amendments 92B and 92C would limit the group of young people who can benefit from transition planning to those who are already in receipt of services. We would not wish to impose any such restriction. Indeed, this restriction was removed following public consultation and pre-legislative scrutiny, because transition planning may equally benefit those who are not currently in receipt of services.
I have heard the concerns expressed that local authorities are not under a duty to assess in every case. This is indeed true, and for very good reason. Some young people will not have needs for care and support after the age of 18. It will not be appropriate, nor indeed will it be in a young person’s interests, to assess in every case.
I listened with interest to concerns about provision for carers of children. We need to be clear about this. Support should be available where it is needed. The question is the source and nature of that support. Clause 59 provides a power, rather than a duty, for local authorities to provide support because existing children’s legislation already includes provision for support to a child’s carer. Duplication of existing legislation may cause confusion and is unnecessary. This power is intended to enable support to be provided under adult legislation where a certain service is available only locally via that route.
I turn now to planning for transition and Amendments 92BA and 94. Provision for transition assessment is focused on the outcomes that the individual wants to achieve. I can reassure the noble Lord, Lord Patel, that such outcomes may include employment, education or housing. I also share the noble Lord’s expectation that, when a child has an education, health and care plan, any assessment under these clauses should take the EHC plan into account and the assessment should be integrated into that plan.
The Care Bill and the Children and Families Bill include provision that assessment can be joint, including joined-up assessments in relation to an EHC plan. These issues will be addressed by both the guidance supporting the Care Bill and the Department for Education’s SEN code of practice.
In respect of Amendment 94, I briefly add two further points. First, when a young person over the age of 18 has an EHC plan, and as such the care part of that plan is provided under this Bill, we would expect co-operation between adult and children’s services in relation to any review of the plan under Clause 6(5)(a) and (b). Such co-operation for those under 18 who are in transition is provided for by Clause 6(5)(c). This would include co-operation with the preparation, maintenance and review of the EHC plan as provided for by the Children and Families Bill, in respect of children. Guidance can ensure that this is clear.
Secondly, requiring a local authority to make arrangements to secure provision for children and young people with a transition plan would not be appropriate. Services to children cannot be provided under the Care Bill. Children’s legislation provides for this. Services to young people over the age of 18 would be provided, if necessary, under provisions earlier in Part 1.
In relation to Amendment 104ZA, I agree on the need to ensure continuity of care. However, we must avoid creating overlap or confusion with local authorities’ existing duties in relation to children, including rights to assessment and support under the Children Act 1989. For this reason, it would be preferable for the young person to request assessment as they see fit and for the local authority to initiate this conversation with the child. The request itself is not envisaged as a formal process. Indeed, for some young people the request will form part of a conversation the local authority initiates about transition to adulthood. Guidance can be used to make this point.
Young people and their families will need information in order that they can understand the adult care and support system and, crucially, that they are aware of their right to request assessment. Clause 4 requires local authorities to establish and maintain an accessible system for information and advice including information and advice about how to access the care and support that is available.
Through Amendments 95, 96 and 97, the noble Lord, Lord Patel, the noble Baroness, Lady Pitkeathley, and the noble Lord, Lord Patel of Bradford, have also expressed concern that there should be provision to support children with care needs to move between areas, without the fear of experiencing a gap in their care and support. I agree. Provision for people over the age of 18 already exists at Clauses 36 and 37 and provision for children with an Education Health and Care plan exists in the Children and Families Bill. If a young person under the age of 18 who has had an assessment under the provisions of Clauses 55 or 60 moves to a new area, the general duties of co-operation, in particular with other local authorities under Clause 6(6)(b), would also apply.
I should like to reassure the noble Baroness, Lady Pitkeathley, in relation to Amendments 93B, 100A and 104ZZA that consideration of “other matters”, a person’s own capabilities and the other support that may be available does not exclude the provision of more conventional care and support services where needed. Indeed, when the child becomes 18, if the individual’s needs are eligible, the local authority must meet them, in accordance with Clause 18, if the adult wants the authority to do so, and those requirements are not diminished by these three paragraphs. The intention is to recognise that, in order to make the right connections to the local community and the variety of support available, the local authority should consider how these matters, along with more formal care and support provision, could be of benefit in achieving the adult’s outcomes.
The noble Baroness suggested that carers might be pressurised by these provisions into providing care. It is certainly not our intention that pressure is put on carers. The clauses make it very clear that a carer must be willing and able to provide support and that the impact upon carers’ well-being must be considered.
She flagged up the concern that the new provisions in Clauses 56, 58 and 61 are departures from the draft Bill and asked why that was the case. The Bill as introduced includes greater clarification as to the nature of the assessment that should be carried out and what should be considered. It is largely for drafting reasons that we split the subsections relating to children, children’s carers and young carers into two subsections for each group.
The noble Lord, Lord Warner, pointed out that, in his view, the Bill is framed as though young people are strangers to the local authority. The Bill makes provision both for those who are receiving children’s services and are known to social services and for those who are not currently receiving care and support. Clause 6 provides a duty to co-operate, including within the local authority. In particular, in relation to children transitioning to adulthood, there is a duty for those internal discussions to take place. The request mechanism in the Bill is not intended to be a formal or bureaucratic process, as I mentioned earlier.
The noble Lord, Lord Hunt, asked me to confirm whether the Government are considering bringing forward amendments on carers, and expressed his concern that the timing of the Children and Families Bill relative to this Bill is unfortunate. I can tell him that my noble friend Lord Nash, at Second Reading of the Children and Families Bill in your Lordships’ House, said:
“As my honourable friend the Minister for Children has said, we are considering how the legislation for young carers might be changed so that rights and responsibilities are clearer to young carers and practitioners alike. We will also look at how we can ensure that children’s legislation works with adults’ legislation to support the linking of assessments, as set out in the Care Bill, to enable whole-family approaches”.—[Official Report, 2/7/13; col. 1201-02.]
The Minister for Children and Families and the Minister for Care and Support have met the National Young Carers Coalition to discuss the key principles for taking this work forward over the summer, as well as how we can most effectively involve the NYCC during this period.
Finally, the government amendment in this group will ensure that the provision added to Clauses 58 and 61, following consultation and pre-legislative scrutiny, specifying that a needs assessment must include an assessment of the impact of the adult’s needs for care and support on their well-being, is also added to Clause 56.
We have had much discussion recently about the need to ensure that services are organised around the needs of individuals. I hope that I have been able to explain how this legislative framework for transition is focused on meeting that aspiration. I hope, too, that I have provided some reassurance about the approach we are taking to smooth the transition to adult care and support. I hope that the noble Lord, Lord Patel, will feel able to withdraw his amendment.