Courts and Tribunals Bill

Debate between Lord Howard of Lympne and Lord Garnier

2nd reading
Tuesday 27th October 2026 Lords Chamber

[Lord Garnier (Con)]

My Lords, it is a pleasure to follow the noble Lord, Lord McNicol, for two reasons. The first is that I agree with everything he said about his noble friend Lord Stace, who has just made what the noble Lord, Lord McNicol, described as a thoughtful maiden speech. I am not in the least bit surprised, knowing what I know about the noble Lord. I expect the House to benefit from his contributions on many future occasions and I welcome him to his place. I also agree with the practical approach that the noble Lord, Lord McNicol, applied to this Bill and the measures that it seeks to introduce to deal with some of the plain and obvious problems that the criminal justice system faces.

Before I come to the substance of the Bill, perhaps I may be forgiven for making what I suspect might in other places be called a pleading point. The amendment to be advanced later this evening by the noble Lord, Lord Rooker, has so far been ignored by the Government. This is a Bill of huge constitutional, financial and practical importance for all of us as citizens and for the institutions of justice. If I may say so, it has been treated by the Government in the other place with considerable disdain. A lot of the Bill before us has not been considered at all, or not adequately, in the other place, so it ought to go back there to be reconsidered before it comes to our House. If that is not going to happen, and I suspect it will not, the Minister ought to have the ability to respond—I was going to say to condescend to us to respond—to the points that the noble Lord, Lord Rooker, makes in his amendment.

Far too much of this Bill is ill considered and unconsidered, and it does us no service when we have to do the work that the Commons should have done. I hope that, when we come to deal with Committee, Report and Third Reading, we will not shrink from applying serious thought, skill and expertise to the detail of this Bill, because it has been woefully considered in the other place. I do not mind which view Members of this House take on the merits and various aspects of the Bill one way or the other, but I do care that, if we are to produce legislation, it should be produced properly and well thought through.

That said, given the controversial nature of some of the provisions of the Bill, there is not really time other than to point at one or two questions which need to be thought about very carefully in Committee. I will pick up one point—I do so with some diffidence, since he is sitting right in front of me—that my noble friend Lord Howard of Lympne made. He chided our noble friend on the Front Bench for placing too much stress on Magna Carta as the origin of the jury system. He was entirely right to do so, but he then relied on Pope Innocent III as being the founder of the modern jury system.

[Lord Howard of Lympne (Con)]

It was King Edward III.