Care Bill [HL]

Debate between Lord Horam and Baroness Brinton

Wednesday 7th May 2014 Lords Chamber

[Lord Horam (Con)]

My Lords, we owe a debt of gratitude to the noble Baroness, Lady Finlay, for tabling an amendment to this Motion. I was present at the meeting yesterday, along with the noble Lord, Lord Hunt of Kings Heath, when we had a fruitful discussion on these issues. When I was the Member of Parliament for Orpington these matters were the bane of my life. The South London Hospitals Trust was a huge problem, as many noble Lords will be aware, with debts of around £150 million at one stage. Although at another period of my life I was a Minister for Health, I was specifically excluded from dealing with the problems of London hospitals because I was a London MP. It is ironic to get to a position of power where you might actually be able to do something for your constituency but then to be disempowered from dealing with it at all. None the less, that is the proper way to proceed.

It is worth bearing in mind that we have now got to a sensible position whereby there is parity in consultation, understanding and agreement between a commissioning group affected by the hospital trust’s special administrator and one which may be outside the trust and, therefore, nominally unaffected by it. Parity of esteem is the effect of the amendment tabled by the noble Baroness, Lady Finlay. I am grateful to the Minister for responding so positively on these matters: we have now reached a very sensible position. However, we should not believe that that is enough. It is a necessary condition for resolving some of these problems but it is not sufficient. Ironically, in the case of Lewisham and the South London Hospitals Trust, there was a very good consultation, called A Picture of Health, which lasted for two years and encompassed all the hospital trusts in south-east London. It was very extensive—and expensive, if I may say so—but it came to the wrong conclusion. The conclusion was that Lewisham should continue as a hospital trust on its own and that the other three principal hospitals—Queen Elizabeth, Woolwich, Princess Royal University Hospital, Bromley and St Mary’s, Sidcup—should all be put into one huge trust. That never worked and that particular trust has had to have special measures to deal with its financial problems.

That excellent consultation ultimately reached the wrong conclusions. Ironically, the rather more short-circuited consultations conducted by the special administrator led to rather better conclusions. We now have a solution on the Bromley side of things, as it is now a part of King’s College Hospital NHS Trust. It has effectively been taken over by it, which is a very sensible arrangement. St Mary’s, Sidcup is now doing other things—quite rightly because it is an old hospital and did not really have the facilities to run an accident and emergency department in the way that a modern hospital needs to do. Woolwich has been put in with Lewisham. We therefore have the makings of a better solution despite inadequate consultation. It shows that we do not merely need good consultation with everyone understanding what is happening; we need somebody to reach the right conclusions at the end of the day. I am referring here to the remarks made by the noble Lord, Lord Turnbull. He is absolutely right that there needs to be a way that the public interest—as well as the understandable more local interests—can be reflected, otherwise we will never make real progress.

The noble Lord, Lord Hunt, made the important point that there are really big problems. We all have scars resulting from the closure of hospitals that sometimes have to be closed. He will be aware of the report last year by the NHS Confederation, the royal colleges and the organisation representing the patients’ voice, which said that up to 20 general district hospitals in this country need to be closed if we are to have a sustainable hospital service and a sustainable NHS. If we do not close those hospitals over a period, after consultation and so on, we will be taking money away from other parts of the NHS, such as mental health and GP services, which are badly needed. We cannot afford to keep hospitals going when they are in need of change.

The way in which change needs to happen is becoming apparent—there is a general consensus. First, there should be more specialist hospitals. I note that the King’s Fund says that A&E departments, maternity care, neonatal services, heart services and stroke care are all areas where specialist hospitals can give better care than general district hospitals do at the moment. That is already happening in London, certainly in the case of stroke care. The number of hospitals has been reduced and stroke care has immeasurably improved, I think to the tune of 50% over the previous two or three years. Equally, of course, the other aspect of this improvement is bringing care back to the community and taking it away from hospitals. People do not want to go to hospital; they think they will get an infection or a disease, apart from anything else. People die as a consequence of being in hospital. We therefore need to bring care back to the community. However, all of that takes time.

I therefore agree with the noble Lord, Lord Turnbull, that we cannot allow ourselves to get into a situation where everybody defends every brick of every local hospital. We all know what happens. As soon as there is a threat to a local hospital the local MPs and the local newspapers get on their high horse, the campaigners come out and there are parades down the street, and no one can move an inch. I hope that noble Lords can see this legislation in the round. It provides for the proper, equal consultation of all interested parties, but we should not put road blocks in the way of necessary change in the NHS. If we do, we will have done the NHS a very bad service.

[Baroness Brinton]

My Lords, I add the thanks of the Liberal Democrats to those that have already been offered for the help from the Minister and his officials since this matter was last discussed in your Lordships’ House. There have been a number of meetings and an enormous amount of correspondence during that time. A key part of that has been the definition of “consultation”, and how to ensure that services in another trust area rather than only an adjacent area are considered. I am particularly grateful because the amendment tabled by my honourable friend Paul Burstow in the House of Commons is broadly the same as today’s government amendment. I thank him too for his tireless work in expanding this. I very much appreciate the comments made by the noble Lord, Lord Hunt, in his amendment, which try to strengthen that.

However, I am not convinced that there is a need for further strengthening. The committee is there, and I hope that the Minister will be able to confirm that, following the request made by the noble Baroness, Lady Finlay. The committee is there to help set things up and ensure that the progress made as the special administrators start their work takes place in an appropriate fashion, and that every aspect of the consultation—which clearly has worried your Lordships—is addressed.

I want particularly to come back to the point about not considering only adjacent services. Much of the discussion this afternoon has been very focused on London, for fairly obvious reasons. However, there are issues around reconfigurations in rural areas, which do not mimic the pattern of a large number of hospitals in a fairly narrow space. Services may be much more scattered. That is why the word “adjacent”, to which others have referred, is not particularly appropriate. Quite often people will find themselves going not only to one area but beyond that area for a very particular service. It is important that the amendment laid down by the Government today makes it absolutely clear about the extension of consultation with those affected trusts.