Data (Use and Access) Bill [HL]

Debate between Lord Holmes of Richmond and Lord Clement-Jones

Committee stage
Wednesday 18th December 2024 Grand Committee

[Lord Holmes of Richmond (Con)]

My Lords, it is a pleasure to take part in today’s Committee proceedings. In doing so, I declare my technology interests as set out in the register, not least as an adviser to Socially Recruited, an AI business. In moving Amendment 156A, I will also speak to Amendment 156B, and I thank the noble Lord, Lord Clement-Jones, for co-signing them.

We live in extraordinarily uncertain times, domestically and internationally. In many ways, it has always been thus. However, things are different and have accelerated, not least in the last two decades, because of the online environment and the digital selves that we find ourselves interacting with in a world that is ever changing moment by moment. These amendments seek to update an important statute that governs critical elements of how cybersecurity professionals in this nation seek to keep us all safe in these extraordinarily difficult times.

The Computer Misuse Act 1990 was introduced to defend telephony exchanges at a time when 0.5% of us were online. If that was the purpose of the Act—the statute when passed—that alone would suggest that it needs an update. Who among us would use our smartphone if we had had it for 34 years? Well, we could not—the iPhone has been around only since 2007. This whole world has changed profoundly in the last 20 years, never mind the last 34. It is not just that the Act needs to be updated because it falls short of how society and technology have changed in those intervening years; it needs, desperately and urgently, to be updated because it is currently putting every citizen in this nation at risk for want of being amended. This is the purpose of Amendments 156A and 156B.

The Computer Misuse Act 1990 is not only out of date but inadvertently criminalising the cybersecurity professionals we charge with the job of keeping us all safe. They oftentimes work, understandably, under the radar, behind not just closed but locked doors, doing such important work. Yet, for want of these amendments, they are doing that work, all too often, with at least one hand tied behind their back.

Let us take just two examples: vulnerability research and threat intelligence assessment and analysis. Both could find that cybersecurity professional falling foul of the provisions of the CMA 1990. Do not take my word for it: look to the 2024 annual report of the National Cyber Security Centre, which rightly and understandably highlights the increasing gap between the threats we face and its ability, and the ability of the cybersecurity professionals community, to meet those threats.

These amendments, in essence, perform one simple but critical task: to afford a legal defence for legitimate cybersecurity activities. That is all, but it would have such a profound impact for those whom we have asked to keep us safe and for the safety they can thus deliver to every citizen in our society.

Where is the Government’s work on updating the Computer Misuse Act 1990 in this respect? Will the Government take this opportunity to accept these amendments? Do they believe that these amendments would provide a materially positive benefit to our cybersecurity professionals and thus to our nation, and, if so, why would they not take this first opportunity to enact these amendments to this data Bill?

It is not time; it is well over time that these amendments become part of our law. If not now, when? If not these amendments, which amendments? If they do not accept these amendments, what will the Government say to all those people who will continue to be put in harm’s way for want of these protective provisions being passed? It is time to pass these amendments and give our cybersecurity professionals the tools they need. It is time, from the legislative perspective, to keep them safe so that they can do the self-same thing for all of us. It is time to cyber up. I beg to move.

[Lord Clement-Jones (LD)]

My Lords, I was delighted to see these amendments tabled by the noble Lord, Lord Holmes. He, the noble Lord, Lord Arbuthnot, and I, along with many other parliamentarians, have long argued for changes to the Computer Misuse Act. For context, the original Act was created largely in response to a famous incident in which professional hackers and a technology journalist broke into British Telecom’s Prestel system in the mid-1980s. The Bill received Royal Assent in June 1990, barely two months after Tim Berners-Lee and CERN made the world wide web publicly available for the first time. Who remembers Prestel? Perhaps this is the wrong House in which to ask that question.

As the noble Lord, Lord Holmes, explained, there is no statutory public interest defence in the Act. This omission creates a legal risk for cybersecurity researchers and professionals conducting legitimate activities in the public interest. The Post Office Horizon scandal demonstrated how critical independent computer system investigation is for uncovering systemic problems and highlighted the need for protected legal pathways for researchers and investigators to examine potentially flawed systems.

I am delighted that the noble Lord, Lord Vallance, is here for this set of amendments. His Pro-innovation Regulation of Technologies Review explicitly recommends incorporating such a defence to provide stronger legal protections for cybersecurity researchers and professionals engaged in threat intelligence research. This recommendation was rooted in the understanding that such a defence would have, it said,

“a catalytic effect on innovation”

within the UK’s cybersecurity sector, which possesses “considerable growth potential”.

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[Lord Holmes of Richmond (Con)]

Could the Minister say a few words on some of those points of discourse and non-consensus, to give the Committee some flavour of the type of issues where there is no consensus as well as the extent of the gap between some of those perspectives?

[Lord Clement-Jones (LD)]

Just to follow up, have the Government formally responded to the original review from the noble Lord, Lord Vallance? That would be very helpful as well, in unpacking what were clearly extremely well-informed recommendations. It should, no doubt, be taken extremely seriously.

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[Lord Clement-Jones (LD)]

Before the Minister sits down or stands up or whatever the appropriate phrase should be, I very much hope that, since the previous Government gave that indication, this Government will take that as a spur to non-glacial progress. I hope that at least the speed might get up to a number of miles per hour before too long.

[Lord Holmes of Richmond (Con)]

My Lords, I thank all noble Lords who have taken part in this important debate and, indeed, the Minister for her thoughtful response. We find ourselves in a position of extraordinary good fortune when it comes to these and many other amendments, not least in the area of artificial intelligence. We had a first-class report from the then Sir Patrick Vallance as CSA. It is not often in life that in a short space of time one is afforded the opportunity in government of bringing much of that excellent work into being through statute, regulation, codes and other guidance. I await further steps in this area.

There can barely be, in many ways, a more serious and pressing issue to be addressed. For every day that we delay, harms are caused. Even if the Government were only to do this on their growth agenda, much spoken of, this would have an economic benefit to the United Kingdom. It would be good to meet the Minister between Committee and Report to see if anything further can be done but, from my perspective and others, we will certainly be returning to this incredibly important issue. I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.

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[Lord Holmes of Richmond (Con)]

My Lords, it is a pleasure to introduce this group of amendments. I have a 35-minute speech prepared. In moving Amendment 211B, I shall speak also to Amendments 211C to 211E. The reason for this group of amendments is to try to get an increased focus on the range of issues they touch on.

I turn to Amendment 211B first. It seems at least curious to have a data Bill without talking about data centres in terms of their power usage, their environmental impact and the Government’s view of the current PUE standard. Is it of a standard that they think gives the right measure of confidence to consumers and citizens across the country, in terms of how data centres are being operated and their impacts?

Similarly, on Amendment 211C, not enough consideration is given to supply chains. I am not suggesting that they are the most exciting subject but you have to go only one or two steps back in any supply chain to get into deep depths of opacity. With this amendment, I am seeking to gain more clarity on data supply chains and the role of data across all supply chains. Through the combination of data and AI, we could potentially enable a transformation of our supply chain in real time. That would give us so much more flexibility to try for economic benefits and environmental benefits. I look forward to the Minister’s response.

I now move on to Amendment 211D. It is always a pleasure to bring AI into a Bill that really does not want to have AI in it. I am interested in the whole question of data input and output, not least with large language models. I am also interested in the Government’s view on how this interacts with the 1988 copyright Act. There may be some mileage in looking into some standards and approaches in this area, which would potentially go some way towards conditions of market access. We have some excellent examples to look at in other sectors of our economy and society, as set out in the amendment; I would welcome the Minister’s views on that.

I am happy that this group ends with Amendment 211E on the subject of public trust. In many ways, it is the golden thread that should run through everything when we talk about data; I wanted it to be the golden thread that ran through my AI regulation Bill. I always say that Clause 6 is the most important clause in that Bill because it goes to the question of public engagement and trust. Without that level of public engagement and trust, it does not matter how good the technologies are, how good the frameworks are or how good the chat around the data is. It might be golden but, if the public do not believe in it, they are not going to come and be part of it. The most likely consequence of this is that they will not be able to avail themselves of the benefits but they will almost certainly be saddled with the burdens. What these technologies enable is nothing short of a transformation of that discourse between citizen and state, with the potential to reimagine completely the social contract for the benefit of all.

Public engagement and public trust are the golden thread and the fuel for how we gain those economic, social and psychological benefits from the data. I will be very interested in the Minister’s response on what more could be done by the Government, because previous consultations, not least around some of these technologies, have been somewhat short of what we could achieve. With that #brevity and #our data, I beg to move.

[Lord Clement-Jones (LD)]

My Lords, I shall be #even shorter. Data centres and their energy consumption are important issues. I agree that at a suitable moment—probably not now—it would be very interesting to hear the Government’s views on that. Reports from UK parliamentary committees and the Government have consistently emphasised the critical importance of maintaining public trust in data use and AI, but sometimes, the actions of the Government seem to go contrary to that. I support the noble Lord, Lord Holmes, in his call for essentially realising the benefits of AI while making sure that we maintain public trust.

Digital Markets, Competition and Consumers Bill

Debate between Lord Holmes of Richmond and Lord Clement-Jones

Committee stage
Monday 22nd January 2024 Grand Committee

[Lord Holmes of Richmond (Con)]

My Lords, it is a pleasure to take part in this first day of Committee on the Bill. As it is my first time speaking in Committee, I declare my technology interests as set out in the register, not least as an adviser to Boston Limited. In moving Amendment 15, I will also speak to Amendment 24, and I am very interested in the other amendments in this group.

Much of the discussions so far rest on the most important point of all when it comes to legislating. It reminds me of many of the discussions that we had in this very Room last year on the Financial Services and Markets Bill, as it was then, about accountability, the role of the Secretary of State and the role of the regulators. Much of this Bill as drafted, if not a pendulum, simultaneously swings significant powers to the regulator, and indeed to the Secretary of State. But the question that needs continually to come up in our deliberations in Committee and beyond is where Parliament is in this process. We hear every day how the physical building itself is crumbling, in need of desperate repair and in need of a decant, but, when it comes to this Bill, Parliament has already disappeared.

There is a massive need for accountability in many of the Bill’s clauses. Clause 19 is just one example, which is why my Amendment 15 seeks to take out a chunk of it to help in this process. Later in Committee, we will hear other amendments on parliamentary accountability. It is not only essential but, as has already been mentioned, goes to the heart of a trend that is happening across legislation, in different spheres, where huge powers are being given to our economic regulators without the right level of accountability.

What we saw as one of the major outputs of FSMA 2023, as it now is, was a new parliamentary committee: the financial services and markets committee. In many ways, you can see this as a process that may happen repetitively, but positively so, across a number of areas if this approach to legislation is perpetuated across those areas when it comes to competition. I look forward to my noble friend the Minister’s response to my Amendment 15 on that issue.

I move on to Amendment 24, which concerns a very different but critical area. It seeks to amend Clause 20, which makes brief mention of the accessibility of the information pertaining to these digital activities but is silent on the accessibility of the digital activities themselves. Does my noble friend the Minister agree that we need more on the face of the Bill when it comes to accessibility? With more services—critical parts of our lives—moving on to these digital platforms, it is essential that they are accessible to all users.

I use the term “user” deliberately because, as we have heard in previous debates, there is a great need for clarity around this legislation. “User” is used—indeed, peppered—throughout the legislation. This is right in that “user” is a term of art that would be understood across the country; however, it does not appear in the title of the Bill, which is at least interesting. We must ensure that all users or consumers are able to access all these digital platforms and services fully. Let us take banking as an example. It is far more difficult to get face-to-face banking services and access to cash, so much more is moved online. However, if those services are not accessible, what use are they to people who have been physically excluded and are now being financially and digitally excluded in the digital space?

When it comes to sporting events, mention has been made of sport in our debates on earlier amendments. I think everyone in the Committee would agree that VAR has not demonstrated technology at its brightest and best in the sporting context. I wonder whether, if we completely turned referees into bots, there would be questions about the visual acuity of the bot on the decisions that it similarly made when it went against our team. If we are to have so many ticketing services for sporting, musical and cultural events available largely, if not exclusively, online—and if, at the front end of that process, there is the all-too-familiar CAPTCHA, which we must go through to prove that we are not yet a bot—what will happen if that is not accessible? We will not get tickets.

I put it to my noble friend the Minister that there needs to be more in Clause 20 and other parts of the Bill around the accessibility of those digital services, activities and platforms. If we could fully embrace the concept of “inclusive by design”, this would evaporate as an issue. I beg to move.

[Lord Clement-Jones (LD)]

My Lords, this is quite a group of amendments. Clearly, it will take a bit of time to work our way through all of them. It is a pleasure to follow the noble Lord, Lord Holmes, who is so knowledgeable about digital aspects—I thought that he would slip stuff about the digital aspects of sport into his introduction.

I am in curate’s egg country, as far as the two amendments in the name of the noble Lord are concerned. I am not quite sure about Amendment 15, but I look forward to the Minister’s response. I think Amendment 24 is absolutely spot on and really important. I hope that the noble Lord succeeds in putting it into the Bill, eventually.

I will start by speaking to Amendments 21, 28 and 55 on interoperability, Amendment 30 on copyright and Amendment 20 in the name of the noble Lord, Lord Lansley. I will refer to Amendment 32 in the name of the noble Viscount, Lord Colville, but I will not speak on it for too long, because I do not want to steal his thunder. If possible, I will also speak to the amendments in the names of the noble Baroness, Lady Jones, and the noble Lord, Lord Vaizey, on leveraging. They are crucial if the Bill is to be truly effective.

Interoperability is the means by which websites interoperate, as part of the fundamental web architecture. Current problems arise when SMS players make browser changers and interfere with open web data, such as header bidding, which is used for interoperability among websites. Quality of service and experience can be misused for the benefit of the platforms; they can degrade the interoperability of different systems or make video or audio quality either higher or lower for the benefit of their own apps and products.

At Second Reading, my noble friend Lord Fox reminded us that Professor Furman, in evidence in Committee in the Commons, said that intervention on interoperability is a vital remedy. My noble friend went on to say that interfering with interoperability in all its forms should be policed by the CMA, which should be

“proactive with respect to promoting international standards and aiming to create that interoperability: for a start, by focusing on open access and operational transparency, working for standards that allow unrestricted participation and favouring the technologies and protocols that prevent a single person or group amending or reversing transactions executed and recorded”.—[Official Report, 5/12/23; col. 1396.]

At my noble friend’s request, the Minister, the noble Viscount, Lord Camrose, followed up with a letter on the subject on 7 December. He said:

“Standards are crucial to building the UK’s economic prosperity, safeguarding the UK’s national security, and protecting the UK’s norms and values. The Government strongly supports a multi-stakeholder approach to the development of technical standards, and it will be important that the CMA engages with this process where appropriate. The UK’s Plan for Digital Regulation, published in 2021, confirms the importance of considering standards as a complement or alternative to traditional regulation”.


It is good to see the Minister’s approach, but it is clear that there should be a stronger and more explicit reference to the promotion of interoperability in digital markets. The Bill introduces an interoperability requirement under Clause 20(3)(e) but, as it stands, this is very vague. Interoperability should be defined and the purpose of the requirement should be outlined; namely, to promote competition and innovation, so that content creators can provide their services across the world without interference and avoid platform dependency.

I move to Amendment 30. Breach of copyright online is a widespread problem. The noble Baroness, Lady Kidron, referred to the whole IP issue, which is increasing in the digital world, but the current conduct requirements are not wide enough. There should be a simple obligation on those using others’ copyright to request the use of that material. As the NMA says, the opacity of large language models is a major stumbling block when it comes to enforcing rights and ensuring consumer safety. AI developers should be compelled to make information about systems more readily available and accessible. Generative outputs should include clear and prominent attributions, which flag the original sources of the output. This is notable in the EU’s proposed AI Act.

This would allow citizens to understand whether the outputs are based on reliable information, apart from anything else.

If publishers are not fairly compensated for the use of the content by generative AI systems in particular—I look towards the noble Lord, Lord Black, at this point—and lose audiences to them, it will harm publisher sustainability and see less money invested in quality journalism. In turn, less trusted content will be available to train and update AI systems, harming innovation and increasing the chance that these systems produce unreliable results.

Electronic Trade Documents Bill [HL]

Debate between Lord Holmes of Richmond and Lord Clement-Jones

Consideration of Commons amendments
Wednesday 19th July 2023 Lords Chamber

[Lord Clement-Jones (LD)]

My Lords, I add my thanks to the Minister for moving these amendments from the Commons. He has shown remarkable consistency with the words of his honourable friend Mr Scully in the Commons—I think word for word it is what he said, so that is excellent. I see other members of the committee here; I am only sorry that the noble and learned Lord, Lord Thomas of Cwmgiedd, is not here to see the final process and see this legislation go forward.

I welcome these amendments, because it means that the legislation will cover the whole United Kingdom, and that the exception power in Clause 5 will operate across the UK. Could the Minister say whether anything is in contemplation under Clause 5 to be excepted in using that power across the UK?

I very much agree with what the noble Lord, Lord Bassam, said about a plan for implementation. This is a much more important Bill than it appears at first sight, and we should really speed it on its way in implementation terms.

[Lord Holmes of Richmond (Con)]

My Lords, I rise briefly to support the amendments as set out. In doing so, I declare my technology interests as set out in the register.

This is the most important Bill that no one has ever heard of. It demonstrates what we can do when we combine the potential of these new technologies with the great good fortune of common law that we have in this country. I particularly support the comments made by the noble Lords, Lord Bassam and Lord Clement-Jones, about the Government’s plan for implementation. Although it is obviously critical that we get Royal Assent to this Bill as soon as possible, that is really where the work begins. As my noble friend the Minister knows, the Bill is rightly permissive in nature; it cannot be that, having done all the work through both Houses of Parliament, the Bill is then just left on the shelf. There needs to be an active plan for implementation, communicating to all the sectors and all the organisations, institutions and brilliant businesses in this space to seize the opportunity that comes from electronic trade documents. Does my noble friend the Minister agree— and will he fill out some more detail on what that implementation plan is?

Electronic Trade Documents Bill [HL]

Debate between Lord Holmes of Richmond and Lord Clement-Jones

Lords Special Public Bill Committee
Monday 20th February 2023 Other Business

[Lord Holmes of Richmond (Con)]

My Lords, like the noble and learned Lord, Lord Thomas, I thank everyone involved in getting the Bill to this stage, not least Professor Green and her team at the Law Commission, our clerks and team here in the House and everyone who has been involved. As a committee, we benefited hugely from the expert and excellent chairmanship of the noble and learned Lord, Lord Thomas, with all his legal experience in this space, not the least of which was an interesting case, which he recounted to the committee, involving a large consignment leaving the port of Bordeaux. All the committee members’ ears pricked up at that point, only to prick down, if ears can do so, when it turned out that the consignment was grain, rather than any product from the right or left bank of the Gironde that may perhaps have been of more interest.

The noble and learned Lord, Lord Thomas, set out the point absolutely clearly: that the Bill demonstrates what we can do when we combine common law with our new technologies. It is right that we conceive of blockchain, distributed ledger technology, AI, machine learning and all the new technologies as tools. They are incredibly powerful and may be incredibly positive, but they are still tools that we humans have to determine how to deploy.

The Electronic Trade Documents Bill is a trade-enabling, trade-empowering Bill, through the potential of electronic trade documents. In reality, however, it is at its heart a new technologies Bill—new technologies in combination with English common law, brought to bear in the area of international trade in this instance.

As the noble and learned Lord, Lord Thomas, pointed out, the most important stage is after Royal Assent, when the hugest sales job must, rightly, be done on the Bill to get traders in this country, banks and other people involved in the international trade business, like insurers, to very much get behind and use electronic trade documents. Rightly, the Bill is permissive rather than mandatory. That is quite correct, but it means that this sales job must be done.

Secondly, this sales job must be done, rightly, through His Majesty’s Government in all the international fora —through bilaterals, trilaterals and all means—to demonstrate to other nation states the benefit of incorporating MLETR into their domestic legislation. To put it plainly, what purpose would the UK passing the Bill have if other nations have not taken MLETR into their legislation and enabled that international trade, which can be done in seconds rather than days?

As the noble and learned Lord, Lord Thomas, perfectly pointed out, the benefit to the environment and net zero should not be missed in any sense here. Currently, in trade, it may take seven to 10 days for a bill of lading document to be transferred to enable a shipment to move. This was illustrated so clearly during Covid, when the planes were grounded at London Heathrow with the trade documents on board and the ships queued up outside the Port of Singapore, unable to move for want of that physical document, which is so painfully papery. The Bill perfectly addresses that, enabling not only settlement in seconds but all that carbon, which would have been wasted in flights and timing, being wiped away through the implementation of the Bill.

Can my noble friend the Minister therefore say whether he will ensure that there is real cross-department and cross-Whitehall consideration not just of what we have learned through the Electronic Trade Documents Bill process but of how we can look to every possibility, in every potential context, to combine common law with the new technologies available, for the benefit of citizen and state alike?

[Lord Clement-Jones (LD)]

My Lords, I was struck by the Minister saying that today’s stand part debates are an opportunity to show our workings. He is admirably qualified to be a Science Minister on that basis.

I add my thanks to the Law Commission, to our witnesses for both their oral and written evidence, to the clerks and staff on the committee in particular and, overwhelmingly, to our chair, the noble and learned Lord, Lord Thomas, who has guided us so carefully and successfully through the thickets of the MLETR and the common law. I very much hope that the Minister and the House authorities more generally will take note of our chair’s comments on the procedure and the serendipity of the fact that we had time successfully to get the evidence and so on. If we had not had the intervening period of Christmas, this would have been extremely difficult.

I fully endorse—as opposed to indorse—what the chair said about the hard part being the practical application and adoption of the Bill. He mentioned the letter from Barclays, which is worth a little consideration because it is very encouraging. It came in rather late, but it expresses quite an appetite from its customers for the Bill, which bodes well:

“Our customers want trade to be simpler, faster and more digital, enabling them to complete trade deals in hours and days rather than weeks and months … The security and compliance of trade will also be strengthened through the proposals in the ETD Bill … The proposals in the ETD Bill will also result in a significant reduction of the estimated 25 billion paper documents generated and couriered around the world each year”—


the noble Lord, Lord Holmes, made this point. That net-zero aspect is extremely important in all of this. The letter says,

“Overall, we are confident that the … Bill will be a positive boost to UK trading”.


On implementation, the Barclays letter picks up the point about the new trade digitisation task force. It would be useful if the Minister could give us a little more information about that, if he has any, particularly in relation to some of the points raised by the noble Lord, Lord Holmes, on the duty or opportunity for the taskforce to encourage the adoption of new technologies, which will of course be absolutely crucial. The letter, again, stresses the need for UK leadership, so the trade digitisation task force will clearly have an international engagement duty. It would be useful if the Minister could unpack that a little so that we know that the Law Commission’s work, which we carried on, will bear fruit in due course.

We very much hope to see that the Bill has all the advantages set out in that Barclays letter.