Detainee Mistreatment and Rendition

Debate between Lord Hodgson of Astley Abbotts and Lord Young of Cookham

Tuesday 16th July 2019 Lords Chamber

[Lord Young of Cookham]

The noble Lord will know better than I do the reasons why that inquiry could not proceed. There were extensive discussions and negotiations between the ISC and the Prime Minister to see if it could find a way through and interview witnesses. I am only sorry those discussions did not end in agreement and the inquiry came to an end.

[Lord Hodgson of Astley Abbotts (Con)]

My Lords, I declare an interest as treasurer of the All-Party Parliamentary Group on Extraordinary Rendition. Can I probe my noble friend a little further on the answer that he has just given? The ISC said its report, which he referred to, was incomplete, because access to key witnesses had been blocked. Therefore, the inquiry could not and must not be taken as a definitive account. We surely cannot leave this hanging over our country’s reputation. Will the announcement to be made later this week or next week answer those questions and definitively lay out the relationship between the ISC and the Government in the future?

[Lord Young of Cookham]

It will be this week rather than next week. The announcement later this week will give an answer to whether there should be a judge-led inquiry, and it will publish the conclusions and recommendations of Sir Adrian Fulford’s report, which was completed last week, together with the Government’s response. I do not have in front of me the answer to whether it will address all the issues raised by my noble friend.

Political Parties: Donation Rules

Debate between Lord Hodgson of Astley Abbotts and Lord Young of Cookham

Wednesday 22nd May 2019 Lords Chamber

[Lord Young of Cookham]

The noble Lord will be aware that some cases concerning the Leave.EU campaign have been referred to the police. On his question about resources for the Electoral Commission, the last time he asked me that I pointed out that there had been an underspend. Since then, the Electoral Commission has put in an increased bid for next year of, I think, 11% for resource expenditure and 18% for capital expenditure. That has been approved by the Speaker’s Committee on the Electoral Commission, because it is that committee that finances the Electoral Commission, not the Government. It has yet to be ratified by the other place but I hope that it will be. That would give the Electoral Commission the resources that it needs, to which the noble Lord referred.

[Lord Hodgson of Astley Abbotts (Con)]

My Lords, is my noble friend aware that there is a Law Commission Bill on electoral reform which is, as they say, shovel-ready? It has many important changes in it and, being a Law Commission Bill, is relatively uncontroversial. Could we not find time to bring it forward to remedy some of the deficiencies in our electoral law?

[Lord Young of Cookham]

As I said on Monday, there appears to be some headroom in the Government’s legislative programme at the moment. Sitting beside me are two members of the relevant Cabinet sub-committee that processes bids for legislation and they will have heard my noble friend’s suggestion. Were there to be such a Bill, I hope that it would be taken through by law officers and not by me.

Criminal Justice (European Investigation Order) Regulations 2017

Debate between Lord Hodgson of Astley Abbotts and Lord Young of Cookham

Wednesday 6th December 2017 Grand Committee

[Lord Young of Cookham]

I do not have the answer at my fingertips. Clearly, it would have to go through the judicial process. As I indicated, we have transferred only one prisoner in the past five years and in that case there was not a problem with the prisoner being returned. In these circumstances the European convention offers similar protections to those in the charter but, unlike the EAW, which I think was mentioned by the noble Baroness, no detention or transfer can take place without consent under an EIO. I am advised that an urgent procedure is available if the person is in custody. That seems only fair. But I take the point that the noble Lord and the noble Baroness would like more information on this. I am also advised that effective dispute resolution mechanisms and protections for UK and EU citizens will be agreed as part of the negotiation on our future relationship with the EU.

That brings me to the final point raised. The fact that both noble Lords raised this indicates that when we do negotiate post Brexit, these particular issues need to be tied down to avoid any problems of delay in resolution. The question was: what contingency plans are in place in case no deal is reached with the EU and, indeed, what are we planning to do as part of an agreement? As the Prime Minister made clear in her Florence speech, we are unconditionally committed to maintaining Europe’s security now and after we leave the EU. What we must do now is agree the mechanisms to support ongoing co-operation. It is in no one’s interests that either the UK or Europe suffers a loss of operational capability as a result of the UK’s exit.

We have proposed a bold new strategic partnership with the EU, including a comprehensive agreement on security, law enforcement and criminal justice co-operation. That was set out in a paper on those subjects, which I think was debated earlier this year. We are seeking an overarching treaty with the EU that provides for practical operational co-operation, facilitates data-driven law enforcement, and allows multilateral co-operation through EU agencies. It is too early to say what future co-operation we may have in relation to individual measures, such as the EIO. In leaving the EU, we will end the direct jurisdiction of the Court of Justice of the EU. But there is significant precedent for the EU to have co-operation with third countries, including co-operation closely aligned to areas of EU law, but there is no precedent for a third country to submit to the jurisdiction of the CJEU. Effective mechanisms will be necessary to ensure that obligations that are agreed will be enforced after negotiations on the treaty.

I was asked what contingency plans are in place in case no deal is reached with the EU. We are confident that continued practical co-operation between the UK and EU on law enforcement and security is in the interests of both sides. The EU 27 made it clear in their Article 50 negotiating guidelines, published in April, that:

“The EU stands ready to establish partnerships in areas unrelated to trade, in particular the fight against terrorism and international crime, as well as security, defence and foreign policy”.


So we approach these negotiations anticipating that an agreement in this area can be reached. We do not want or expect a no-deal outcome. But a responsible Government should prepare for all potential outcomes, including the unlikely scenario in which no mutually satisfactory agreement can be reached. That is exactly what we are doing across the whole of government.

I hope I have addressed the specific issues raised.

[Lord Hodgson of Astley Abbotts]

As I understood it—and the noble Baroness, Lady Ludford, referred to this—one of the weaknesses of the EAW was that it was being used for fishing expeditions, which tended to undermine it, and that the EIO was to fill that gap; in other words, you could ask questions which did not require an EAW, which had been brought into disrepute in some senses. But that is not the case, is it? You have to be a prisoner before you can have an EIO, so we are back to fishing expeditions again. There is no way that an EIO could be served on the ordinary person in the street because they are not a prisoner. Our concern about fishing expedition continues, I think.

[Lord Young of Cookham]

It goes back to what the EIO aims to do. Basically, it is a judicial co-operation mechanism for providing assistance in investigating and prosecuting criminal offences and it replaces the existing scheme; that is, the existing EU and Council of Europe mutual legal assistance measures. It does this through introducing mutual recognition of other member states’ judicial decisions. As my noble friend said, it standardises the process for making requests by using a template form rather than a letter of request, and it specifies time limits for responding. All the evidence shows that it is already working quite well. A number of requests have been made and processed, and it is proving to be a much more efficient system than the one it replaces. As more member states sign up to the EIO, we believe that it will be an improvement on the previous mutual legal assistance scheme.

I am not sure that I have fully understood the point made by my noble friend, in which case I shall read it again in Hansard. I will drop him a line and hope to give him and the noble Baroness an assurance. As I have just said, the EIO is a mutual legal assistance measure. An individual can give a voluntary statement under an EIO or could be compelled to come to court in the UK in the same way as in domestic proceedings. I hope that that gives my noble friend the answer he was seeking.

Small Charitable Donations and Childcare Payments Bill

Debate between Lord Hodgson of Astley Abbotts and Lord Young of Cookham

2nd reading (Hansard): House of Lords & 3rd reading (Hansard): House of Lords & Committee: 1st sitting (Hansard): House of Lords & Report stage (Hansard): House of Lords
Monday 12th December 2016 Lords Chamber

[Lord Young of Cookham]

My Lords, I am very grateful to all those who have taken part in this short debate for their contributions and for their broad support for the objectives of the Bill. I have noted, and will touch on, some of the very helpful suggestions that have been made.

One of the questions was when there would be an opportunity to have another look at the scheme. All tax policy remains under constant review, and the scheme we are discussing is no exception. In addition, HMRC publishes a national statistics package every year, providing a wealth of data, including the total amounts claimed under the gift aid and small donations schemes. This transparent approach allows interested parties to monitor the take-up and effectiveness of charitable tax reliefs constantly. But all suggestions made during the debate will of course be looked at by the Ministers and officials who have responsibility for taking this important policy forward.

Quite a lot of the comments were focused on the link between the small donations scheme and gift aid. There are a number of arguments for nudging people towards gift aid wherever possible. First, the gift aid scheme is not cash limited, whereas the small donations scheme is, so the more people can put on the gift aid side, the more people will be outside the cap. Also, with gift aid the charity gets a list of the donors who support it, which obviously does not happen with the small donations scheme. There is also the issue of safeguards against fraud, which I shall come to in a moment.

On the issue of publicity for the scheme, a number of noble Lords commented on the fact that the take-up has not been as high as we, or they, would have wished. As I said, we will publish the scheme, and I take note of the comment by my noble friend Lord Hodgson that publicity should not come in brown envelopes marked “HMRC”, which strike terror into the hearts of most citizens. We should find a more user-friendly way of publicising details of the scheme.

A number of noble Lords suggested that the matching requirement might be dropped. This was raised during the review that the Government undertook. The matching rule was not identified as an issue in the vast majority of responses. Even the charity finance groups and the NCVO’s own call for evidence response acknowledged that only 5% of the charities that they surveyed claimed no gift aid, which does not wholly support the assertion that the matching rule is a significant barrier for most charities. The argument was also put forward that it was excessive and that one way around this would be to have a fixed amount. HMRC requires a regular pattern of gift aid claims to be able to ensure that a charity is and continues to be compliant with the main gift aid scheme. It is a sort of proxy for compliance, having the link between the small donations scheme and gift aid. The organisations continuing compliance with gift aid and HMRC’s ability to check a number of claims is the closest proxy to help to assure compliance under the new scheme. Requiring a number of gift aid claims to be made, which includes the provision of donor declarations alongside claims for top-up payments, increases the protection against fraud and abuse, which I shall come on to in a moment.

The scheme is at risk from fraud. The Government believe that a matching requirement is an important anti-fraud element of the scheme. Even if a charity appears to be compliant for the first few years or with the first claim, changes in charity personnel can affect an organisation’s attitude to compliance, so HMRC will continue to need some evidence on which to base its assessment of the risk that the charity poses in relation to the scheme. There are some unfortunate examples of individuals exploiting charitable status for criminal purposes. In May this year three individuals were jailed for a total of 22 years for defrauding HMRC of £5 million in fictitious gift aid claims; in April three individuals were jailed for a total of 11 years for submitting fraudulent gift aid claims totalling £340,000; and in January two individuals were jailed for a total of five years for attempting to fraudulently claim £500,000 in gift aid from HMRC. This demonstrates that there is some risk of abuse in the scheme.

I was pressed by my noble friend Lord Hodgson to extend the gift aid small donations scheme to include other forms of payment—direct debits, cheques and credit card payments. The aim of the scheme is to allow charities and community amateur sports clubs to claim a gift aid-style payment on cash donations received in circumstances where it is difficult or impractical to collect donors’ details. Giving by cheque means that the donor is giving their details to the charity, and the extra amount of information needed to make a gift aid declaration is relatively small. If it is practical for a donor to write a cheque, it seems reasonable to assume that it is practical for the donor to make a gift aid declaration at the same time. When a charity has an ongoing relationship with a donor, you should use gift aid if at all possible.

[Lord Hodgson of Astley Abbotts]

My noble friend is doing a splendid job with a brief that is not entirely his. The Revenue always produces these stupendous figures—£5 million here and £5 million there—but we are talking about an £8,000 maximum per charity, so there is a limit to the extent to which bad boys can run away with the ball. I am not asking for a response—just to place on the record that the Revenue is being unfair to my noble friend by talking about £5 million being cheated out of charities when we are talking about a very limited scheme. It was an unfair speaking note that it gave my noble friend.

[Lord Young of Cookham]

I take full responsibility for any speaking notes that I deliver. If one looks at some possible structures, you can have a charity with a number of community buildings and each one could claim £8,000—so it is not necessarily capped at £8,000. Depending on the structure of the charity, it would be possible to claim a much larger figure. I take on board the point that my noble friend has made.

Progress is being made on making SMS slightly more user-friendly. SMS text giving is an easy way for donors to give to charity; donors simply send a short code to a six-digit number to donate a set amount via their phone bill. There is an established process for donors to gift aid SMS donations. Following the initial message, a reply is sent to the donor, thanking them for their donation and asking for their name, house number, post code and confirmation that they are a UK taxpayer. If the donor replies with this information, gift aid is added to the donation. HMRC is working closely with the sector and we are introducing new legislation in April 2017 to simplify the process for claiming gift aid on donations made through digital intermediaries.