Energy Bills Support Scheme and Energy Price Guarantee Pass-through Requirement (England and Wales and Scotland) Regulations 2022

Debate between Lord Hodgson of Astley Abbotts and Lord Teverson

Tuesday 22nd November 2022 Grand Committee

[Lord Hodgson of Astley Abbotts (Con)]

My Lords, I am grateful to my noble friend for his explanation and for the way he has addressed some of the concerns of the Secondary Legislation Scrutiny Committee, which I chair. The SLSC, a cross-party committee, is of course not concerned with politics. That is for the House, the Government and, in due course, the electorate to decide.

My remarks now are therefore not about the energy policy but about the administration and process by which it is being delivered. We have quite narrow objectives in our terms of reference. The two that I think apply today are, first, that the instruments are

“politically or legally important and give rise to issues of public policy likely to be of interest to the House”;

and secondly, that they may imperfectly achieve their policy objectives. I particularly want to compare the unfavourable treatment of Statutory Instruments Nos. 1102, 1103 and 1125 with the other two in this group, Statutory Instruments Nos. 1101 and 1124. The first lot are about energy and the second lot are about heat.

As my noble friend the Minister has explained, this is about making sure that a fair share of the proceeds are passed on to tenants by landlords. He has gone through the rationale for “fair”, “reasonable” and so on and so forth, but it is worth while us putting ourselves in the position of an elderly widow. Let us say that she is in a block of 50 flats. Let us say that the landlord has two or three blocks of flats; they may have a couple of hundred tenants. The landlord may say, “Here is your rebate”. She may, for one reason or another, decide that it is not right. She must therefore begin proceedings to recover what she believes her fair and reasonable share is. That is what the committee was concerned about: inequality of arms.

We have to think about a single individual, maybe a vulnerable individual. I accept that I am exaggerating slightly to make a point, by taking one particular angle on the people who might be affected, but I am trying to explain to the Committee that this person is somehow going to have to have the courage, conviction, energy and money to take the landlord on and take them to the county court over what may not be a huge sum of money. Although I am sure my noble friend wishes to find ways of ensuring that tenants are informed and helped and that landlords are required to provide proper shares, records and so on, I am not sure that this is going to work in the real world as happily as the Government, I and the SLSC would wish it to. The inequality of arms—above all, in the power to delay and ask for more particulars; as I said, this should be looked at in a lot of detail—is likely to work in favour of landlords, particularly multiple landlords, against tenants, particularly tenants who are vulnerable, elderly or disadvantaged in one way or another.

When we come to the first three SIs, Nos. 1102, 1103 and 1125, there is no further appeal—that is the end—whereas when we get to Nos. 1101 and 1124, there is an appeal to the Energy Ombudsman and the General Consumer Council for Northern Ireland, in respect of activities in the Province. So, although I quite understand what the Government are doing and wish to do well, they will need to keep a very close eye on what is going on under these regulations to ensure that fairness is not only being sought but being achieved and that, in cases where people are less well equipped to fight their corner, they are properly protected and looked after.

[Lord Teverson (LD)]

My Lords, I would very much like to follow up on a number of the points that the noble Lord, Lord Hodgson, made so clearly. First, I welcome these regulations. Clearly, they are important pieces of secondary legislation. They are really important in terms of making sure that energy contributions, subsidies and public payments reach the people they need to reach. The questions I am going to ask are not a prosecution, if you like; I want to understand how some of this is going to work. I recognise fully the difficulty that the Government might have in finding a way to make this work.

First, what is the size of this problem? Does the Minister have any indication of the number of households that, in effect, have their landlords pay their electricity and energy bills? I do not know whether he has any idea what that is.