House of Lords: Questions and Correspondence

Debate between Lord Hill of Oareford and Baroness Royall of Blaisdon

Thursday 8th May 2014 Lords Chamber

[Lord Hill of Oareford]

My Lords, one decision that I have taken recently, which I hope my noble friend and other noble Lords will support, is that a new electronic system for dealing with Questions for Written Answer is to be introduced. I have said that, so far as this House is concerned, Ministers will continue to send hard copies to Members and sign them personally. That is important because it speaks to the need for accountability of Ministers in our House. That is right and I am sure that all noble Lords here will support it.

[Baroness Royall of Blaisdon (Lab)]

My Lords, I am grateful to the noble Lord for all that he said and I welcome the innovations. However, as many noble Lords have said, it is not just the speed but the substance of the Answers that is important. I, too, have an example in front of me: a direct Question to which I received not a direct Answer but a bland statement of policy. It is essential that we have direct Answers in order to hold the Government to account. However, as the noble Lord the Leader will know, I am concerned about the impact of long recesses on our ability to hold the Government to account, including by the tabling of Written Questions. With a 10-week Summer Recess, the tabling of Written Questions on two days is simply not adequate, and I ask the Leader what he is doing to address that issue.

European Council and Nuclear Security Summit

Debate between Lord Hill of Oareford and Baroness Royall of Blaisdon

Wednesday 26th March 2014 Lords Chamber

[Lord Hill of Oareford]

I know that the noble Lord is often ready to blame the EU for a whole range of matters. However, it is hard to argue in this case that the situation that has developed, with the aggression shown by Russia and its breaking of international treaties freely entered into in the past, can be laid at the door of the EU.

[Baroness Royall of Blaisdon]

My Lords, the noble Lord, Lord Pearson, was not in the Chamber for the Statement that was given by the Minister at the beginning. It is therefore a bit rich that he should come in.

Reading Clerk

Debate between Lord Hill of Oareford and Baroness Royall of Blaisdon

Monday 3rd March 2014 Lords Chamber

[The Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster (Lord Hill of Oareford) (Con)]

My Lords, we often talk in this House of the debt we owe to the staff. Today we have the opportunity to pay tribute to one who served us with great distinction for more than 38 years, Rhodri Walters—or perhaps I should say, using that well known phrase from our Letters Patent, our trusty and well beloved Dr Rhodri Havard Walters. Over those 38 years Rhodri served the House in many senior roles, including as private secretary to the Viscount Whitelaw; as Establishment Officer—now less elegantly known as Director of Human Resources; and as Clerk of Committees. He has also overseen the recruitment and development of many of the younger clerks in this House, a task which I know he much enjoyed. But he is perhaps best known to most of us as the Reading Clerk who so beautifully read out our punctuation-free Letters Patent as we were each introduced to the House. It was in this guise that he was described by a parliamentary sketch writer as the,

“master of ceremonies … A figure almost from Dickens. With his wig and spectacles and parchment voice, he was the learned town mouse, nose twitching as he waited”.

Dickensian, perhaps, but how reassuring to us as we stood there nervously.

Beyond the House, Rhodri has many interests, including rowing, skiing—indeed, he is on the slopes of St Anton as we speak—singing, gardening and his native Wales, where he has a house at which he will now be able to spend more time. I know the whole House will want to join me in thanking him for his long and loyal service and in wishing him a very happy retirement.

[Baroness Royall of Blaisdon (Lab)]

My Lords, on behalf of these Benches, I thank and pay tribute to Rhodri Walters for his excellent and indefatigable work throughout his career communicating the work of Parliament to a wider audience. He has led in the delivery of learning materials for the parliamentary studies module, an innovative educational partnership between the Houses of Parliament and universities which was launched in 2012. As many noble Lords will know, he was the author, together with Sir Robert Rogers, of How Parliament Works, a uniquely authoritative yet accessible account of how Parliament works. The seventh edition, I can tell noble Lords, will be available in all good bookshops soon. The sixth edition, labelled a “a rare treat” by one commentator, was described by Andrew Marr as,

“clear, elegant, invaluable, bang up-to-date and full of dry wit”.

I can think of no better way of describing one of its authors, Rhodri Walters, and I wish him well in his retirement.

EU Council

Debate between Lord Hill of Oareford and Baroness Royall of Blaisdon

Monday 28th October 2013 Lords Chamber

[Lord Hill of Oareford]

My noble friend is right that the French approach things differently from us. When he talks of schadenfreude, the point to which I would refer him is the fact the Germans were there at the Prime Minister’s launch. Those who have, like my noble friend, studied the dynamic within Europe over a very long period of time would recognise the relationship between the UK and Germany. The work that my right honourable friend the Prime Minister has put into trying to strengthen that relationship is an important part of helping to counterbalance some of the views held by other member states to which my noble friend refers.

[Baroness Royall of Blaisdon]

With the permission of the House, perhaps I may ask the noble Lord to comment on the contrast between the search for deregulation in the business sector, which in many ways we welcome, and the imposition of bureaucracy and red tape on charities, trade unions and the voluntary sector in the Transparency of Lobbying, Non-Party Campaigning and Trade Union Administration Bill?

[Lord Hill of Oareford]

As the noble Baroness would expect me to say, these are different matters. I refute her point that the proposals on charities in the Bill would be as intrusive and destructive as the kinds of regulatory burdens that are operating in some ways within Europe, which we seek to remove. Like the noble Baroness, what one always wants is a proportionate approach in all areas.

House of Lords: Oral Questions

Debate between Lord Hill of Oareford and Baroness Royall of Blaisdon

Thursday 21st March 2013 Lords Chamber

[Lord Hill of Oareford]

Because, my Lords.

[Baroness Royall of Blaisdon]

My Lords, I welcome all that the Leader has said. I just wish to place on record that I think that all Members would wish to ensure that those of us who feel a little nervous about asking supplementary questions should be encouraged to do so, and that we should have a much more accepting view in this House of those who feel somewhat reluctant to ask questions.

[Lord Hill of Oareford]

I agree with the noble Baroness entirely. One thing that Members of this House can do, particularly those who contribute more frequently in Oral Questions, is to observe our courtesies and give way to some Members who perhaps do not ask questions so often. I urge all Members to do so.

Youth Services

Debate between Lord Hill of Oareford and Baroness Royall of Blaisdon

Tuesday 25th October 2011 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Royall of Blaisdon]

To ask Her Majesty’s Government what measures they are taking to secure the provision of youth services.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Schools (Lord Hill of Oareford)]

My Lords, the Government will set out their plans for an overall youth strategy later in the year. English Councils can draw on their revenue support grant and the early intervention grant to fund youth services. Central government is also meeting capital costs of £141 million for 63 myplace youth centres in disadvantaged areas, funding provision of national importance for vulnerable young people by 18 voluntary organisations and piloting national citizen service for 16 year-olds.

[Baroness Royall of Blaisdon]

My Lords, I am grateful to the Minister for that Answer. It all sounds very good when it comes from the Minister’s lips but it would not feel like that to the 1,000 young people I met this morning at a very excellent Choose Youth rally. They are concerned that they are being unfairly treated when their services are disproportionately cut. If he looks at the figures, the Minister will agree with me that youth services up and down the country are being disproportionately cut. Does he agree that support for young people is a cost-effective way to change people’s lives and that if they are missing out we are missing out as a society?

[Lord Hill of Oareford]

I agree with the noble Baroness, Lady Royall, about the importance of supporting young people. I know that she is carrying out a review to look at ways to make it easier for them to get more engaged from a democratic point of view. That is extremely important. It is the case that we have had to take difficult decisions on funding. As I have said to the House on many previous occasions, it is also the case that when we were faced with a decision last year on where to prioritise our public spending we took the view that, given the need to make hard choices and the overall situation that we faced, the more sensible place to put it was in pre-16 funding as all the evidence shows that how children do before 16 is the strongest determinant of how they do after 16.

Academies Bill [HL]

Debate between Lord Hill of Oareford and Baroness Royall of Blaisdon

Wednesday 7th July 2010 Lords Chamber

[Lord Hill of Oareford]

I hope that the noble Earl will forgive me. He made that point very clearly earlier and I am sorry not to have responded to it. This report is rapidly assuming biblical proportions. There seem to be a whole range of issues arising from this debate that noble Lords from around the House will want to make sure are looked into very carefully and debated properly. I am sure that the point that the noble Earl has made is just one such example.

[Baroness Royall of Blaisdon]

My Lords, I am grateful to the Minister for his very full response. I certainly accept that there is nothing in current legislation stipulating that academies must abide by the admissions code. I accept that the safeguards are adequate for 200-plus academies but when it comes to 2,000-plus, which there may well be if free schools become academies, then perhaps greater safeguards are needed.

I tend to agree with the right reverend Prelate the Bishop of Lincoln that sometimes it is necessary for things which are implicit to be made explicit, as that inspires confidence. I certainly urge the Minister to take the opportunity to make explicit the fact that academies have to abide by the admissions code by putting that into the Bill. However, I accept the arguments that he made and beg leave to withdraw the amendment.

Education: Languages

Debate between Lord Hill of Oareford and Baroness Royall of Blaisdon

Thursday 1st July 2010 Lords Chamber

[Lord Hill of Oareford]

Sadly, my Lords, I do not.

[Baroness Royall of Blaisdon]

My Lords, I warmly welcome the Paris declaration. In response to my noble friend Lord Harrison, the Minister agreed that we need more officials and civil servants who have the requisite language skills so that they can be employed by the EU institutions. I fully agree with that, but can the Minister assure me that the cuts in the Foreign Office budget announced on 29 June will not affect the teaching of languages for civil servants? Without those languages, our people cannot apply to do the concours.

[Lord Hill of Oareford]

I am reliably informed by sources close to the Foreign Office that there will not be any effect of the sort that the noble Baroness might fear.

Academies Bill [HL]

Debate between Lord Hill of Oareford and Baroness Royall of Blaisdon

Wednesday 23rd June 2010 Lords Chamber

[Lord Hill of Oareford]

My Lords, I hope that I am able to provide the clarification for noble Lords opposite, including the noble Lord, Lord Rix, and for my noble friends. I start by reassuring noble Lords that academies are prohibited from charging for admission. No pupils on the roll of an academy will have to pay for their education.

On the specific point made by the noble Baroness, Lady Royall, as I said, Clause 1(7)(a) prohibits charging but the Bill as drafted allows for the prospect that an academy may need to charge in certain circumstances. I shall explain the kind of circumstances that I have in mind; I think that we touched on this earlier. For example, an academy may wish to charge for providing evening classes to people not on the school roll. We had earlier debates about wanting a school to be part of a community. Providing evening classes would seem to be a good example of that and the Bill would enable the school to do it. Alternatively, an academy may want another organisation to be able to provide evening classes or other activities that can be accessed by the wider community. Therefore, as we want academies to take part in, and be part of, the local community, that is what the Bill provides for. However, any fees charged would be put back into the academy in accordance with the charitable objects of the academy trust.

So far as concerns charging for nursery or SEN provision in Amendments 67 and 75, I reassure the Committee that academies will not be permitted to charge for education provided during the usual timetabled school hours, including the entitlement to nursery education; nor will they be permitted to charge for special needs provision.

I hope that that provides some reassurance and that the noble Baroness will be able to withdraw her amendment.

[Baroness Royall of Blaisdon]

My Lords, I entirely accept that the Minister says there is no intention to charge for education. I also acknowledge that it might be acceptable to charge for evening classes—hence the Explanatory Notes. However, I think that there is some confusion here and I should like the wording to be tightened up in some way. At the moment, it looks as though this could be a back door to charging in due course, and that would concern me deeply. Therefore, I ask the Minister to look at this issue so that when we come back to it—and it is something that I shall want to come back to because it is such a fundamentally important question—the wording will have been tightened up.

[Lord Hill of Oareford]

I am happy to say to the noble Baroness that there is no back door, but I take her point and will of course reflect on what she said.

[Lord Hill of Oareford]

As I said to the noble Baroness, Lady Royall, the intention is clear. I take on board the point made by my noble friend about the need for clarity. I will reflect on that.

[Baroness Royall of Blaisdon]

I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.

--- Later in debate ---

[Baroness Royall of Blaisdon]

I shall also speak to Amendments 55, 100 and 110. Special educational needs in relation to academies are a key issue for us on these Benches, for Members throughout the Chamber and for many in the world of education, in particular those pupils who have SEN. There is huge expertise in this House, as was demonstrated during the short debate on Monday, when the Minister was clearly in reflective mood. I know that he is listening and I am glad.

I have to say at the outset that I am fundamentally opposed to special schools being included in the Bill—hence Amendment 18. Most local authorities and schools do a good job by children with special educational needs and by their families. Inevitably, local authorities and schools also find parents who are unhappy with the provision that their children receive. The Lamb inquiry, of which all noble Lords will be aware, reported that many parents are happy with what they receive, but it recommended that we need to be tougher with local authorities and schools that do not comply with their statutory duties towards children with SEN. There is much work to be done in this area but I do not believe that the proposals in this Bill will assist in improving the situation for children with SEN. It is vital that we acknowledge that the impact of the Bill on SEN will be far-reaching, controversial and incredibly complex.

Parliament is now being asked rapidly to pass legislation that says that by September this year special schools could reopen as academies. That means, at least potentially, that many of the safeguards and programmes that drive improvements in SEN provision in communities—

[Lord Hill of Oareford]

On a point of clarification, it is not envisaged or proposed that a special school would be able to convert by this September. The Government have made it clear that it would be the following September—in 2011.

[Baroness Royall of Blaisdon]

I am grateful for that clarification, which is extremely important. Forgive me if I have misled the Committee in any way.

The Bill, as drafted, could mean that many of the safeguards and programmes that drive improvements in SEN provision in communities would simply be dropped or made no longer relevant. That would redesign the SEN approach taken by government to date and completely disrupt the important work of local authorities in this area. There are also serious concerns that SEN provision could be harmed both by the establishment of academies on such a large scale and by the new academies being drawn from those schools that are already strong and which in many cases would be the best place to take on more SEN pupils and deliver real improvements in SEN provision.

As it stands, and as we have discussed, the legislation completely removes local authorities from consultation on academy status. The central funds for SEN provision will be handed out to many schools in a given area. If that is the case, it is vital that we create a framework that gives local authorities, parents and children with SEN, as well as other academies in the area, some certainty and consistency in relation to other schools in the area about what provision each will provide for special educational needs.

Amendments 18, 100 and 110 deal with the issue of special schools by seeking to remove reference to them in the Bill. The way in which we treat less fortunate members of our society is a good measure of any civilised society. The interests of people with SEN are currently addressed primarily by local education authorities. We are greatly concerned that this Bill will damage the ability of local authorities to fulfil their important role in this field and will run the risk of damaging the education, and therefore the life chances, of a great many pupils with special educational needs—the very last group of pupils whom a civilised society should place at risk.

Earlier, I was mistaken in saying that special schools would become academies in September, which would be much too early. I am glad that that is not the case. However, I still think that the Bill is being taken through its legislative process in haste. Although I now understand that special schools would not have even the permissive right to become academies in September, many issues relating to special educational needs need to be better thought out before such schools are enabled. Perhaps we need to see provisions in the Bill that assure us that all these complex details will be properly worked out before schools for special educational needs can become academies.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Hill of Oareford]

My Lords, I am grateful for the points raised during the debate and for the kind words that many noble Lords have said about my effort to understand these very complex issues—which I have not done fully at all. However, as I said on Monday and am happy to repeat this evening, I cannot see any logical argument why one should not strive for the principle of parity. Whereas I am not able to say to noble Lords that I am able to come up with particular proposals at the moment or to endorse the persuasive arguments made tonight, I have said that I shall come back with proposals on Report.

A number of very persuasive and forceful points have been made, whether they were to do with complaints, funding or transport. I shall reflect on them with my officials. As these issues are more complicated, and as I explained to the noble Baroness, Lady Royall, it is the intention that the schools should not convert until the following year, which gives more time to work these things through. I hope noble Lords will find that reassuring.

I do not know whether I should declare an interest for proprietary reasons, but I shall do so anyway: my wife has been a long-time volunteer and instructor for the Riding for the Disabled Association, working with a wide range of children and adults with a range of mental and physical disabilities. I therefore know a little of some of the work that charities and noble Lords do.

Rather than prolong the debate tonight, perhaps I may respond afterwards to all the points that have been made. I simply restate my commitment to reflect on them and to come back with a proposal on Report. I therefore hope that noble Lords will not press their amendments.

[Baroness Royall of Blaisdon]

My Lords, I am grateful to the Minister for that response and for again saying that he will come back to this issue on Report. I know that time is tight, but if his amendment could be tabled as soon as possible so that we could see it well beforehand, we could decide what action, if any, we wished to take on Report. I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Hill of Oareford]

I will write to my noble friend about that. The ultimate responsibility is with the Secretary of State. I am not 100 per cent certain whether the YPLA is responsible for enforcing it; I believe that it is, but I will write to confirm that. Equally, on Amendment 85, academies are required by their funding agreements to act in accordance with the law on exclusions and to have regard to the Secretary of State’s guidance on exclusions as if the academy were a maintained school.

My noble friend Lady Walmsley raised one or two other points. As she correctly pointed out, there are two codes. Both codes are applied to academies through their funding agreements and that will continue to be the case. I hope that that provides some reassurance to noble Lords and I invite the noble Baroness to withdraw her amendment.

[Baroness Royall of Blaisdon]

I am grateful for the clarification from the Minister. This has been a useful debate. However, I will reflect on the issue, because it took some time for us as a country to get a strict admissions code that is, to all intents and purposes, properly enforceable. I would not wish for us to retreat from that in any shape or form. I am not for one moment suggesting that that is what the Government are seeking. However, it might be better—and I know that it would inspire greater confidence—if there could be something about that in the Bill. I know from experience that Governments are always, rightly, reluctant to stick everything into a Bill, but this is such an important issue that I may wish to come back to it on Report. I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.

Academies Bill [HL]

Debate between Lord Hill of Oareford and Baroness Royall of Blaisdon

Wednesday 23rd June 2010 Lords Chamber

[Lord Hill of Oareford]

I will reflect on that. The point of the figure is to provide some benchmark. My noble friend Lady Perry is quite right to say that individual circumstances vary greatly from school to school, and each of those circumstances would need to be taken into account in forming a view as to what is a sensible sum. That figure has been included as a rule of thumb, but I take the point that one may need to exercise discretion.

[Baroness Royall of Blaisdon]

My Lords, I am very grateful for the clear response from the Minister. It is extremely helpful to have clarification on deficits and surpluses. The point raised by the noble Baroness, Lady Perry, is extremely important. That would not have come out if she had not raised it, so I am very grateful to her. With that, I beg leave to withdraw the amendment, but before I do that, I should inform the House that we won 1-0.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Hill of Oareford]

That could not happen. To clear up another often expressed concern that may lie behind the questions of my noble friend and other noble Lords, an academy trust cannot be a profit-making body either—although, clearly, the people providing the service will be paid for doing so.

Amendment 26, to which the noble Baroness, Lady Royall, referred, would require future academies to continue any formal collaboration arrangements established between a former maintained school and FE colleges. As Section 166 of the EIA 2006 allows only for formal governance structures to be established between maintained schools and FE colleges, any partnership would operate on an informal basis. That is what happens currently and it is the right way to continue. It is happening in Luton, where Barnfield College, an FE college, is sponsoring two academies. In practice, that approach seems to be working.

Amendment 27 would prevent an academy trust from changing the age range to which it would provide education—and there was a long discussion subsequently, which I may come back to on later amendments, about the role of primary schools. The amendment would prevent an academy from, for example, providing early years education if it did not do so from the point of conversion and it could prevent it from expanding its provision from secondary to sixth form. However, given proper safeguards, those are the kinds of developments that we want academies to have the freedom to deliver. If that is what local parents want, we want academies to be able to do that.

[Baroness Royall of Blaisdon]

It is a point about consultation. I am not seeking to prohibit academies from expanding the age range, but the fact is that they would do so without consultation. This harks back to the whole consultation issue and I hope the Minister will consider that point.

[Lord Hill of Oareford]

I am considering that. On the specific point of sixth-form expansion, an increase in places would require a change to the admissions arrangements, which would itself require local consultation and agreement by the Secretary of State. That may provide the noble Baroness with some comfort.

Amendments 45, 47, 48 and 49 revolve around the debate we had about “wholly or mainly”. I share the views expressed on all sides of the House about boarding academies. I am very attracted to the idea and wish to see whether we can do more with them. Other points were made around a particular specialism and one would not want provisions in the Bill which made that problematical.

As to the specific question about the existing 35 state boarding schools—this provides the answer to the substantive question behind it—yes, they are able to apply for academy status. To respond to the noble Lord, Lord Adonis, the Duke of York’s Royal Military School will become a boarding academy within the current requirements—which, as he rightly said, date from 1988 wholly or mainly—so they have not prevented that from happening. A performing arts academy has been set up in Birmingham to serve that city’s pupils, and I am advised that that has been possible within the “wholly or mainly” requirement. I am alive to the point—I have asked about it within the department—and I am keen to encourage the kind of developments referred to by the noble Lord and others, including the noble Lord, Lord Northbourne. I am keen to do this and I am told that it is not a practical obstacle. I shall be happy to take up the noble Lord’s offer to discuss the issue subsequently and make sure that I am right in my understanding.

Amendment 56, which was spoken to by the noble Baroness, Lady Royall, seeks to ensure that an academy continues to provide for CPD and suggests making it a requirement for future academy arrangements. Everyone would agree on the need for continuous professional development in academies, as in all schools. I am advised that it is one of the areas without the sort of requirement that she suggests. Academies often do particularly well as a result of the overall way in which they approach staff issues and pay and conditions. Academies are supported by education advisers whose role has included looking at this area in particular. I am told that it is working well, so we are not convinced that it needs to be a statutory requirement.

Amendment 57 would require that corporal punishment be prohibited in academies. The School Standards and Framework Act 1998 amended the Education Act 1996. It effectively abolished corporal punishment in all schools by providing that there should be no defence to criminal or civil proceedings as a result of any corporal punishment being given to a child being educated at a school. That provision applies to academies as well as maintained schools and has been in force since September 1999.

Amendments 58, 99, 109 and 120 would restrict academies to particular types or age ranges. Nursery schools are not able to become academies because they cater for pupils below compulsory school age and, to be established, academies must have at least five pupils of compulsory school age. I listened with interest to the debate on primary schools and understand some of the concerns raised. My noble friend Lady Sharp suggested federations of primary schools, which is exactly the kind of thing that one would want to encourage. We have said—this responds in part to my noble friend Lady Williams—that we will work with local authorities to address these issues as the scale and nature of academy conversion becomes clear. As I have said repeatedly, we are approaching this conversion permissively. We are not seeking to make all primary schools convert. We are committed to thinking through the issues that she raised about the practicalities involved for primary schools. We will continue to reflect on that and work with local authorities. That said, we are keen that primary schools of the sort that I visited in Edmonton on my second day in the department—it is a fantastic primary school which has been turned around—have the chance to convert. The headmistress there, Patricia Sowter, was very keen on academy freedoms. Primary schools should have that chance and we do not want to stand in their way.

Amendments 127 and 25 raise a theme that we have debated in previous groups. They would require a school converting to an academy to join forces with a weaker school unless particular circumstances led the Secretary of State to decide that it was not the right thing to do. The noble Baroness, Lady Morgan, said that we have used warm words and that one is looking for more than that. I shall continue to try to heat them up even further if I can. I completely agree with her and other noble Lords who made similar points. The importance of partnership between outstanding schools converting to academies and other schools cannot be underestimated. We have been explicit that each outstanding school will be expected to sign up in principle. They will have to set out their plans as part of that process. However, it is still our view at bottom that approaching partnership on a volunteer rather than a conscript basis may make those partnerships more fruitful, in that they will be willingly entered into rather than perhaps approached more grudgingly. Amendment 127 is not limited to outstanding schools. Our view is that if a school is not yet outstanding, to burden it with a requirement to partner with a school eligible for intervention would not be a sensible way forward.

I hope that my answers have provided some reassurance, particularly on the “wholly or mainly” point, which I recognise is important and am happy to discuss further. On that basis, I urge noble Lords not to press their amendments.

Academies Bill [HL]

Debate between Lord Hill of Oareford and Baroness Royall of Blaisdon

Monday 21st June 2010 Lords Chamber

[Lord Hill of Oareford]

I am grateful to my noble friend. The point about whether schools will be able to convert in time for September has certainly been raised, and there has been a suggestion that the timetable has been politically driven. As I said before, our approach has been to put out the idea and be permissive. Some schools may well convert in time for September, which we think is perfectly possible, as my noble friend says, but other schools will no doubt take longer, and that is also fine.

In response to my noble friend’s more substantive point, which is where my argument was heading, having listened to this debate I recognise that we have to be as transparent as possible in this process. As I said, I recognise the points that have been made about the spirit of consultation, and I can say to the Committee that I am willing to take that thought back to the department and consider how best we can ensure that the conversion process carries the confidence of all interested parties—a point made forcefully this afternoon. On that point, I urge the noble Baroness to withdraw her amendment.

[Baroness Royall of Blaisdon]

My Lords, this has been an excellent debate and I am grateful for the Minister’s response. It is not that I do not trust people; I fundamentally trust human beings—that is my position. However, I recognise that the need for consultation was not enshrined in the previous Act and that, to date, academies have undertaken consultations because they have believed it to be the proper thing to do, which it is. However, there have been about 200 academies to date and we are now talking about a further 200, another 200 and another 200. If free schools all become academies, that will be an awful lot of schools. We are talking about a fundamental change in our education system. It is not a question of a lack of trust; it is a question of ensuring that proper procedures are undertaken.

I shall certainly reflect on the debate. I certainly understand the fears expressed by my noble friend Lord Adonis, and I would be the last person to want to be overly legalistic. I shall also reflect on the suggestions put forward by the noble and learned Lord, Lord Mackay.

The noble Baroness, Lady Walmsley, suggested that consultation could be dealt with in guidance. That might well be an interesting way forward but, if that were the case—and, as I said, I want to reflect on it, as I shall certainly want to come back to this issue on Report—I would want to see some sort of draft guidance. I would want to ensure that the guidance came before, and was agreed by, Parliament. I believe that consultation goes hand in hand with confidence; it is a matter of dispelling doubts and suspicions.

This is a critical part of the Bill. I am glad that the Minister is going to reflect further, as I think we must all do, and I look forward to our debate on Report. I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.

Schools: Modern Languages

Debate between Lord Hill of Oareford and Baroness Royall of Blaisdon

Tuesday 8th June 2010 Lords Chamber

[Lord Hill of Oareford]

My Lords, I will be very interested to hear more about the British Council scheme; it sounds extremely good. I would like to talk to the noble Baroness about that and to see whether we could encourage other organisations into it.

[Baroness Royall of Blaisdon]

My Lords, following the excellent debate on the Academies Bill yesterday—and I hear what the noble Lord has said about reflecting on the teaching of languages in primary schools—I wonder whether, in the Government’s view, the Government’s primary academies should be obliged to teach every child a language. Have the Government made any assessment of the impact of schools opting out of funding provision for teaching languages in other schools in areas where it is a shared service?

[Lord Hill of Oareford]

The basic question about the overall content, how the curriculum should be constructed and how that applies to all schools is one that the Government are looking at, with regard to academies. There is a presumption that academies will have slightly more freedom over their curriculum than other schools. They are obviously under an obligation to provide a broad and balanced curriculum. Clearly, many academies are already providing excellent language teaching as part of those courses.