Free Schools: Educational Standards
Lord Hill of Oareford Excerpts(5 years, 10 months ago)
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Lord Hill of Oareford (Con)
My Lords, next door there are 150 people repeating the same six things at great length. Here, there may be fewer of us, but if we recognise that we are talking about the education of our children, I think we are talking about something rather more important for the long-term future of our country, and there is also much more chance of us hearing something new.
It is a great pleasure to speak in the same debate as my noble friends Lord Nash and Lord Agnew. Between the three of us, for better or worse, you have the history of the free schools policy in government since 2010. It is a particular pleasure to speak alongside my noble friend Lord Harris, who has done more personally and directly to help children in our country than the rest of us put together.
When I think back to my first meetings with officials in the summer of 2010 and I look at where things stand today, it is undeniable that this policy has made a lasting difference. It was not introduced by coercion but, certainly initially, bubbled up from below. That element of permissiveness and experimentation in the free schools policy motivated me most.
Like the noble Baroness, Lady Morris of Yardley, I have never believed that structure is more important than people. I never argued that academies or free schools would automatically be better than local authority schools simply because they had a different structure. I never suggested that free schools were guaranteed to succeed, although I certainly believe that if you delegate responsibility and trust people more, more of them are likely to succeed.
I was always clear, too, that some were bound to fail, but given the system-wide failures in our education system that we inherited, I felt that giving people more responsibility, allowing them to respond to local needs and encouraging them to challenge the status quo was a risk worth taking. If you look at the overall results, as well as some of the individual success stories we have heard today, I still think that that was the right call.
It is also worth recalling how bitter the opposition to the idea of free schools was at the beginning. We were told that no one would want to take part, that free schools were being unfairly bankrolled and that they would cause mayhem in the system. None of that has turned out to be true; they have the same funding, the same inspections and often far cheaper buildings than under the old regime. When I became a Minister, I realised that there was a game among academy sponsors, who were competing to see who could get the most expensive new building out of the department. It is true that finding premises in London was difficult and sometimes horribly expensive—I am sure that it still is—but we applied downward pressure on costs overall.
Getting the first 24 free schools open in less than a year, when it had typically taken three, four or more years to open a new school, was hard pounding. It would have been impossible without three groups of people. The first was my Secretary of State, Mr Gove. He delegated responsibility to his junior Minister 100% but would also come charging towards the gunfire when things got lively—the opposite of some Secretaries of State we can all think of, who want to control everything and then blame others when things go wrong.
The second group was the individuals behind the free school proposals. Whenever things were difficult, I found that meeting the proposers was a guaranteed way to cheer me up and make me buckle down again. Their enthusiasm, hard work, bloody-mindedness, vision and commitment to making sure that local children had a decent education drove us on. Without them, there would be no free schools.
The third group was my officials. I remember their looks of incredulity at my extremely permissive approach, bearing in mind that they had all been working for Mr Ed Balls, who had a plan for everything where everything fitted together in perfect logic. Then, under the leadership of Mela Watts—who I believe is still doing the job today—they got stuck in. They had to find premises, negotiate leases and construct vetting procedures—the whole lot. They offered me words of caution when they needed to but drove forward into unknown territory with great grace, humour and commitment. This could not have happened without them either.
I want to offer two thoughts. I have not been close to this for quite a while. My first thought is for the Government and my second is for the Opposition. My thought for the Government concerns something that my noble friend Lord O’Shaughnessy touched upon, as did the noble Baroness, Lady Morris. One consequence of the success of free schools is that they have become part of the establishment. The thing that I thought was most exciting about them was the innovation and disruption that they brought to the system. I remember that one of the early proposals was for Spanish bilingual primary schools. That would never have come from the traditional state system. We have to hold on to that disruptive and imaginative approach. In relation to maths schools and special schools, we need to keep the enthusiasm there was from the parents of children who had learning and other disabilities to bring a new approach. They must keep their disruptive edge. I am sure my noble friend Lord Agnew is seized of the importance of that. We do not want to create a new orthodoxy where there is a new mantra of two legs bad, four legs good, or whatever it is.
Secondly, and briefly, to the Opposition, I echo the points that were made earlier. I hope that people do not one day feel the need to make huge amounts of structural change all over again. For those who may think that what it needs is just a bit more co-ordination and centralisation and a small, gentle helping hand, we all know that helping hands from government can quite rapidly become overintimate embraces and beyond that come close to strangulation. We need to beware on both sides.
We all know how easy it is for government Ministers to make policy announcements and huge, grandiose promises. The free schools policy is a clear example of where we underpromised but overdelivered. For that reason alone, it is worthy of notice and celebration.
Lord Hill of Oareford
I remember a time when members of the Labour Party were against free schools because they involved parental interest. They were opposed to free schools because they thought that parents would not be able to take on the running of free schools. Now they seem to be saying that they are not in favour of free schools because they do not involve parents enough. I do not know if there has been a change in the policy in the intervening years.
Lord Agnew of Oulton
I rather agree with my noble friend that the Opposition seem to have gone on a journey. When free schools were originally mooted under my noble friend’s tenure we were told that no one was capable of creating one other than the Government. We have put paid to that myth.
Schools: Admission Policies
Lord Hill of Oareford Excerpts(11 years, 4 months ago)
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The Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster (Lord Hill of Oareford)
It is the turn of this side, but we shall be very quick and then we shall hear from the other side.
Lord Cormack
My Lords, does my noble friend agree that throughout this country church schools, Church of England schools in particular, make an enormous contribution to the cohesion of their local communities, and that Church of England clergy play a big part in this, both by what they teach and by serving as governors on the boards of such schools?
Education: English Baccalaureate Certificate
Lord Hill of Oareford Excerpts(11 years, 10 months ago)
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The Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster (Lord Hill of Oareford)
I think it is the Conservatives’ turn this time.
Baroness Wheatcroft
My Lords, does my noble friend the Minister agree that one of the most common complaints from industry has been about the lack of employability of so many school leavers because of their lack of numeracy and literacy? Does he also agree that in the United States a lot of children are taught computer programming, whereas in this country we tend to teach technology as the use of technology, and that programming would be a great advantage?
Schools: Performance
Lord Hill of Oareford Excerpts(11 years, 11 months ago)
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The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Schools (Lord Hill of Oareford)
My Lords, overall the Ofsted annual report showed that the performance of schools has improved, with 70% of schools rated good or better compared with 64% five years ago. However, it also showed marked variations in performance between different local authorities with similar levels of deprivation. The department undertakes its own analysis of individual school performance alongside that of Ofsted. It uses this to identify schools which could benefit from academy status.
Lord Bates
I am grateful to my noble friend for that Answer and I share his concern about variations. Can he confirm that the report highlighted that in Barnsley, 20% of children attend good or outstanding schools, whereas in Wigan the figure is 95%? In the leafy borough of Merton in London, 45% attend good or outstanding schools, whereas in Tower Hamlets the figure is 78%. Does this not nail the myth that performance in schools has anything to do with levels of social deprivation? Will he move with all pace to do all he can to exercise the powers he already has to take schools that are failing our children from local authority control and give them academy status?
Lord Hill of Oareford
My noble friend is right to highlight some of the variations that the Ofsted report illustrates. We should all look at that. The conclusions he draws are the same that the chief inspector draws: that it is possible for outstanding schools in areas of deprivation to perform extremely well for their children. So far as the second point is concerned, if we can find an agreed way forward for a sponsored solution with local authorities in the cases of under-performance, that is the route we would prefer to go down. However, I can reassure him that in cases where that is not possible, we will use our powers of intervention.
Baroness Sharp of Guildford
Does the Minister not agree that the variations in school performance reflect the quality of school leadership, as much as anything else? Does he think that the Government are doing enough to encourage talented young teachers to go forward as school leaders at the moment?
Lord Hill of Oareford
I agree with my noble friend about the importance of school leadership, obviously. It is always the case that it is people who make the greatest difference. I would contend that the academy freedoms provide more space for those great leaders to exercise their professional judgment. So far as her important point about the provision of new leaders is concerned, I agree with her. We have extended the national leaders of education programme and the Teach First programme. We are extending the number of teaching schools. These are all important initiatives that should lead to an increase in the number of excellent school leaders to whom she rightly refers.
Baroness Farrington of Ribbleton
My Lords, will the Minister confirm publicly that the oft-used mantra of local authority control is no longer the case, and that local authorities have powers and duties but control is not among them? Given the full range of skills that young people need in their lives, is it not a disgrace to watch additional primary school places being provided in areas such as Pimlico, where they are not needed, and being built on sports areas which were used extensively by children and young people who cannot afford private sports clubs?
Lord Hill of Oareford
I have discussed the specific case that the noble Baroness raises before. I am not sure that the facts around primary school places and sports provision in London are quite as straightforward as she portrays. To take the general point, I feel very strongly that it is right that there should be more choice locally for parents who want outstanding primary school places. Whether or not there is a basic need problem, it is right that they should have that choice. So far as the free schools generally are concerned, most of that new primary provision is in areas of basic need. As regards the role of local authorities, they are discharging their responsibilities in different ways across the country. Clearly, the trend over a long period has been towards greater autonomy for schools, and that is something on which this Government are trying to build.
Lord Quirk
My Lords, should we be concerned not just with the variation between schools but between schools and young offender institutions and within young offender institutions, where this report shows that the skills and learning provision is both thin and patchy?
Lord Hill of Oareford
I agree with the noble Lord’s point. It is an area where more work needs to be done. I accept that the provision is patchy. As regards the variation between different kinds of provision, the more we can publish data which illustrate what the facts are, so that people can then draw their own conclusions on the action needed, it is a good and healthy development.
Baroness Sharples
Can my noble friend tell me what proportion of children going to school now have English as their second language?
Lord Hill of Oareford
I am afraid that I do not have those figures in my head but I will write to my noble friend and make sure that she has them.
Lord Davies of Oldham
My Lords, why does the Secretary of State constantly refer to Sweden as a model of good schools when the Economist Intelligence Unit in its recent survey of world performance ranked our schools in sixth place and Swedish schools in 21st?
Lord Hill of Oareford
My right honourable friend refers to a number of international examples of different kinds of system from which we can learn. However, the noble Lord will probably also know that alongside the Economist report to which he refers, which did, indeed, say what he says, there are a number of reports, including the PISA reports, which, sadly, do not yet show us in quite such a good light. The encouraging thing about the Ofsted report which I am keen to emphasise is that it points to a number of improvements over recent years, including under the previous Government, towards a more self-supporting system, the development of good new heads and stronger teachers, and that is something on which we are building.
Education: Vocational Education
Lord Hill of Oareford Excerpts(12 years ago)
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The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Schools (Lord Hill of Oareford)
My Lords, we commissioned the Wolf review and have reformed vocational qualifications in order to restore rigour to them. We have announced reforms to post-16 funding for vocational education and work experience. We have increased the number of apprenticeships by nearly two-thirds. We have significantly expanded the UTC and studio schools programme. We will continue to open new UTCs, technical academies and studio schools, and will work to raise the quality of vocational education and the esteem in which it is held.
Baroness Jones of Whitchurch
I thank the Minister for that reply. Does he agree that it is vital that vocational education has the same status and funding as the purely academic education provided for those working towards a university place? Does he further agree with the recent report of the CBI that the raising of the school leaving age to 18 provides an ideal opportunity for a rethink on the curriculum and examination systems, which could then include a gold standard vocational qualification for those less suited to academia? What lessons will the department take from other successful countries, such as Germany, which offer all young people a mix of academic and vocational education according to their individual talents and abilities?
Lord Hill of Oareford
I strongly agree with the noble Baroness about the importance of making sure that vocational and academic qualifications have equal esteem, are held in equal regard and have equal funding. That is one of the reasons why the reforms to post-16 funding, which we brought forward in the summer, will make sure that young people at colleges and schools after the age of 16 will be funded on the same basis for both vocational and academic qualifications. That will also leave more money for work experience, which is important too. We can always learn from other countries but the underlying point is that there is broad agreement that we need to treat vocational and academic qualifications with equal weight. The Government are trying to do that.
Baroness Brinton
My Lords, given that employers, parents and students find the proliferating and bemusing qualifications a complete maze, does the Minister agree that the status of vocational education would be helped by a simplification of the qualifications framework, such as in Holland?
Lord Hill of Oareford
It is not just parents and employers who find them a maze, it is Ministers as well. They are extremely bewildering. My noble friend is right that simplification is called for. She will know that the Wolf review called for a great deal of simplification and a thinning out of qualifications. In terms of the value of those qualifications, it is important that we have effective and clear destination measures so that people can make judgments fairly and openly about the quality of the education being offered in different institutions.
Baroness McIntosh of Hudnall
My Lords, will the noble Lord consider expanding the notion of vocational education just a little bit to include those people whose vocation is in the arts, particularly those who wish to take up careers in the performing arts, for which they have to undertake very long and always very demanding training? Does he think that their needs are being served by the fact that the EBacc does not contain any reference to their subjects?
Lord Hill of Oareford
I agree very much with the noble Baroness about the importance of those subjects and disciplines and the rigour that they entail. In terms of the EBacc, I think she knows my view that the concentration on the small number of subjects leaves plenty of space for other important subjects that are not those six core subjects. I certainly agree that art, drama and music are important subjects which one would want to see children learning and thriving at.
Lord Roberts of Llandudno
My Lords, how alarmed is the Minister by the announcement that there has been a reduction in quality careers guidance in schools and colleges? What are the Government doing to rectify this essential provision, which we need if we are to have good vocational instruction?
Lord Hill of Oareford
I agree with my noble friend about the importance of good careers guidance. He will know that the Government have made a change by placing a duty on schools and colleges to make sure that young people have good-quality careers advice. Our funding reforms will also help to drive the take-up of good-quality work experience, particularly after the age of 16. The more that we can bring employers into the classroom and into colleges, and get them to help to shape the curriculum and qualifications, the better it will be in terms of helping those young people get good jobs.
Lord Reid of Cardowan
My Lords, given that we live in an increasingly cyberdominated world where digital and electronic communications will determine the future of this country and employment for many people, what particular efforts are being made to underpin the subjects of science, mathematics, electronics and engineering in the generation who will equip this future for the challenges of our economy in the next generation?
Lord Hill of Oareford
The noble Lord is absolutely right about the importance of those subjects in underpinning those disciplines and the increasing role that they will play in the economy. In order to encourage the skills to which the noble Lord referred: we are driving the take-up of maths and science in schools; recruiting excellent teachers of those subjects and paying them bigger bursaries to get them into teaching; taking forward the programme of university technical colleges, led by my noble friend Lord Baker, which have an emphasis on engineering skills; and my right honourable friend the Secretary of State has brought forward proposals to change the IT curriculum to make it much more open and led by people who know what they are talking about.
Baroness Falkner of Margravine
My Lords, given that the German system was mentioned, is my noble friend aware that German schools are highly selective academically and that it is also possible to move between the vocational and academic sectors within the German framework? The system is very different and the selective part is not, I believe, a route that this country wants to go down.
Lord Hill of Oareford
What we are increasingly seeing in some of our own institutions—for instance, the UTCs to which I referred—is that it is possible in those where non-selective entrance is open for young people to study both academic and rigorous technical qualifications.
Young People: Staying Put Scheme
Lord Hill of Oareford Excerpts(12 years ago)
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The Earl of Listowel
To ask Her Majesty’s Government what plans they have to roll out the Staying Put scheme across England and Wales.
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Schools (Lord Hill of Oareford)
My Lords, the Government are encouraging all local authorities to expand staying-put arrangements so that more young people can stay with their former foster carers until age 21, particularly when these young people are in further or higher education. My honourable friend Edward Timpson, the Children’s Minister, has recently written to all directors of children’s services, urging them to ensure that care leavers always live in safe, suitable accommodation, including staying-put arrangements.
The Earl of Listowel
I thank the Minister for his reply. Does he share my concern that these young people, in particular, need enduring and reliable relationships in their lives because of their poor start? Does he also share my concern at the recent findings from the deputy Children’s Commissioner about the sexual exploitation of young people leaving care? Does that not highlight the urgency with which the Government should pursue their current activity in encouraging local authorities to spread this practice as far, and as soon, as possible?
Lord Hill of Oareford
I agree with the noble Earl on both points. Any help that he and others can give in raising the salience of the issue with local authorities would be very welcome. As I said, my honourable friend has written to all of them, and he will be monitoring the situation. I am glad that in the past year the number of young people in staying-put arrangements has increased—admittedly from a low base—by more than a third, so there has been some progress. However, we all need to keep the spotlight on it.
Baroness Brinton
Is the Minister aware of the bizarre anomaly that care leavers who are not in education, employment and training are eligible for a personal adviser only until they are 21 years old, while those who are in education, employment and training are eligible for support from a personal adviser until the age of 25? In light of this, will the Government consider extending the offer of personal advisers for NEET care leavers until they are 25?
Lord Hill of Oareford
My Lords, I think that I am right in saying that the extension to the age of 25 for those who are in education was a fairly recent extension from the age of 21. I will take up the noble Baroness’s second point with my honourable friend Mr Timpson.
Baroness Hughes of Stretford
My Lords, I am sure that none of us as parents would want to be forced to turn our son or daughter out of the house on the day of their 18th birthday but that is happening to thousands of young people in care. The Minister has effectively said, as the Government constantly say, that it is up to local authorities. However, this is a very special case because these young people are in the care of the state; the Government have ultimate responsibility for their well-being and cannot pass the buck to local authorities. Will the Government give young people in care the entitlement to stay in their placement after the age of 18, if it is in their interests to do so, and ensure that local authorities provide the support for that to happen? Will they further ensure that any planned changes to housing benefit and welfare reform being considered by the Government do not further disadvantage young people in care?
Lord Hill of Oareford
My Lords, it is not a question of the Government seeking to pass the buck to local authorities. As the noble Baroness will know much better than me, that is where the statutory responsibility lies and where we think that it should be. Given those statutory duties, I am sure she will have seen the recent Section 251 returns around the funding that local authorities are putting into looked-after children—it has shown a small increase over the past year, which reflects the priority that is being attached to it—and the statutory framework that is in place.
On the noble Baroness’s second point about whatever changes may be made to the benefits system and seeking to make sure that the interests particularly of this most disadvantaged group of care leavers are taken into account, she is right that we need to make sure that those concerns are properly considered. I know that my colleagues will be doing that as policy is developed.
Lord Roberts of Llandudno
My Lords, I am delighted to see that Wales is included in this, as so many things are devolved to Wales. Will the Minister explain exactly how this scheme operates in Wales? Is it through the Assembly Government or directly from Whitehall?
Lord Hill of Oareford
The Welsh Government are responsible for their own arrangements but, in parallel, they are carrying out a consultation looking into precisely the same issues and whether it is appropriate to introduce their version of staying-put arrangements into Wales. That consultation is going on at the moment.
Lord Harris of Haringey
The noble Earl, Lord Listowel, has referred to the Children’s Commissioner’s report which came out today, in particular the dreadful findings about how many children in care have been sexually abused. Will the Minister tell the House the Government’s stance about that report, given that, apparently, people speaking on behalf of the Government to both the BBC Radio 4 “Today” programme and the Sun said that the report was overemotional and were trying to undermine its conclusions?
Lord Hill of Oareford
The Government’s stance is that the report from the deputy Children’s Commissioner is helpful for the Government to have. We will reflect on the findings that it makes in terms of its recommendations and its estimates about the extent of the problem. I think I am right in saying that the report recognises that making any precise estimate is by nature very difficult, but the more information we have the better. Even before this report, the Government have been seeking to improve the systems for getting accurate reporting from various local agencies and authorities to make sure that we have as accurate a picture as possible to make sure that we do not underestimate or overestimate the problem. Everyone is very aware of the salience of this issue and the important issues that that report gives rise to.
Schools: Arts
Lord Hill of Oareford Excerpts(12 years ago)
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The Earl of Clancarty
To ask Her Majesty’s Government, in the light of their proposals to change the school qualifications system, what plans they have in relation to the teaching of the arts in secondary schools, including visual arts, drama, music and dance.
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Schools (Lord Hill of Oareford)
My Lords, creative subjects such as art, drama and music should be part of pupils’ educational and cultural experience. We are considering how to ensure that high-quality qualifications are available in these subjects and will make an announcement in due course. We recognise the importance of the arts through our national plan for music education and our support for the music and dance scheme. This year we are spending around £110 million on music, dance and other creative arts in schools.
The Earl of Clancarty
My Lords, the Minister will be aware of the huge concern expressed by many in the arts about arts and design being omitted from the EBacc—a concern, will the Minister take note, shared by the CBI? Does the Minister accept that if cultural skills and learning do not take an absolutely central role in the school curriculum, we will lose out in the development of the creative industries, which are going to play, without a doubt, a significant part in the regeneration of this country?
Lord Hill of Oareford
My Lords, I agree very much with the noble Earl about the importance of the creative industries and about the importance of those subjects—it is important that they should be taught in schools. I am aware of his concern about the EBacc and the anxiety that it might lead to a narrowing of what is offered in schools. We think that the EBacc, for those schools that want to follow it, would still allow between 20% and 30% of the timetable to be used for the teaching of other subjects, including important ones such as music, art and design, and drama.
Lord Lloyd-Webber
My Lords, the Chinese seem to be taking a different attitude to all areas of the arts. They realise how important the creative industries potentially are to their economy. In everything from applied arts to music to drama, they are actively seeking our teachers as well as sending students to us here to learn. It is vital that the Government take on board that the creative industries are important to our economy and that we must recognise that within education.
Lord Hill of Oareford
I very much agree with my noble friend about how important the creative industries are from an economic point of view. He makes his point with a great deal of experience and force. However, the case for the arts in our curriculum should not rest solely on the economic benefit that they bring—although that is considerable—but on the fact that they have merit and value in themselves, and young people should have the chance to learn about them because that is part of a rich and broad education.
The Countess of Mar
My Lords, does the Minister appreciate that young people with learning difficulties benefit enormously from this particular list of subjects, which help them not only to learn something new but to integrate with their fellows, and perhaps to join society later on in life?
Lord Hill of Oareford
I agree with the noble Countess. These subjects have a range of benefits for all kinds of children.
Baroness Wall of New Barnet
My Lords, is the Minister aware that what ought to be included in the discussion around the arts, drama and dance is how these subjects will lead to employment in the way in which the qualifications are designed and delivered? The creative and cultural sector skills councils are all one now and it would be advisable to talk to Creative Skillset about what skill sets employers are looking for.
Lord Hill of Oareford
I agree with the noble Baroness that it is important to talk to employers and a range of interested parties that can help contribute to our thinking. It is worth making the point that the original thinking behind the EBacc was driven by the relatively small number of children who had that mix of EBacc subjects, which experience seems to suggest are most likely to lead to those children being able to go to our top universities. When only 4% of children on free school meals were doing the EBacc subjects, it was pretty clear that the number of those children who were going to be able to go to our top universities would be constrained. The idea behind the EBacc is not to set about a narrowing of education but to try to tilt the balance back towards some more rigorous subjects. About 15 years ago, half of all children did the equivalent of the EBacc subjects; today it is about 22%. If we can tilt it back a bit more that way, I think that would be good.
Baroness Bonham-Carter of Yarnbury
My Lords, last February, in response to Darren Henley’s admirable review of cultural education, the Government committed to immediately drawing up a national plan for cultural education. It is now November and as “immediately” has still not occurred, can my noble friend tell me when we are going to see this plan?
Lord Hill of Oareford
We have already announced and taken steps on some of the elements of Mr Henley’s excellent plan. The formal response is not as immediate as he, others and my noble friend would have liked, but we are expecting it early in the new year.
Baroness Jones of Whitchurch
My Lords, does the Minister not acknowledge that the maths on this simply do not add up? There are only so many teaching hours in a day and given that it has been estimated that the EBacc will take about 80% of the curriculum time, is it any wonder that the latest figures from the Joint Council for Qualifications are showing that entries for GCSE in design and technology, art and design, music and drama are already beginning to fall? The Government’s policies are already having an impact on the take-up of these important subjects.
Lord Hill of Oareford
I make the important point that EBacc subjects are not compulsory. It is for schools to decide what is the best thing to offer; if schools think that the EBacc is not right for all their pupils, they should act accordingly. However, as I said, if between 20% and 30% of time is available for other subjects, it is perfectly reasonable to expect that those important subjects we have discussed will continue to be offered. In terms of what has happened so far to the number of pupils taking GCSEs, obviously any results we have had so far in 2012 cannot have been affected by the EBacc since the time lag means that none of that would have worked through.
Baroness Afshar
My Lords, I declare an interest as the mother of a music teacher who insisted that I stand up and talk about her experience, because she finds that children who are not necessarily academic become valorised by being taught music, which enables them to do other academic subjects. She wanted me to read the following quote from a very well known music director.
Baroness Afshar
My question is: are we going to stifle future music directors whose talent would bud if only they had the confidence that they gain by doing a subject such as music? If that subject is not valorised, they are not recognised.
Lord Hill of Oareford
I hope that I have made it clear, my Lords, that it is hugely important that that desire should not be stifled. Children should be able to study music through the money that we are putting in through the national music education plan, through the new music hubs that we have established and through the support that we are giving to schemes which will make available instruments to children learning for the first time. All those things will help make sure that music is valued, as it should be.
Schools: Parenthood Education
Lord Hill of Oareford Excerpts(12 years ago)
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Lord Northbourne
To ask Her Majesty’s Government what steps they are taking to ensure that secondary school children learn about responsibilities of parenthood.
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Schools (Lord Hill of Oareford)
My Lords, secondary school pupils can learn about the responsibilities of parenthood in non-statutory personal, social, health and economic education. Schools have the flexibility to include the teaching of parenting skills as part of PSHE education, based on local circumstances and the needs of their pupils. A review of PSHE education is looking at how to support schools to improve the quality of PSHE teaching.
Lord Northbourne
I am most grateful to the noble Lord for that Answer. However, is the Minister aware—I am sure he is—that Ofsted’s recent reports show that in many, if not most, secondary schools, PSHE is taught, if at all, by teachers with little interest and no training in the subject? Will the Government take action to ensure that the nation’s secondary schools do more to warn young people about the significant and often onerous responsibilities attached to becoming a teenage parent?
Lord Hill of Oareford
My Lords, that same Ofsted subject survey in 2010 showed that about three-quarters of PSHE provided by schools was good or outstanding.
Lord Hill of Oareford
I take the noble Lord’s underlying point and the importance of that. Those are the issues that the review is looking into, in terms of the content of what is taught, the quality of the teaching and the support that goes to teachers.
Lord Howe of Aberavon
My Lords, would my noble friend agree that the objective in the mind of the noble Lord, Lord Northbourne, is even more likely to be fulfilled if school governing bodies included at least some members who are parents of pupils in the school?
Lord Hill of Oareford
I think that the contribution that parents make to school governing bodies is varied. The connection between parents and schools is an important one, but that goes beyond the direct parental role and into the whole provision of education.
Baroness Hughes of Stretford
My Lords, the latest figures for teenage pregnancy rates—that is, for the year 2010—were the lowest for 40 years. That was driven by the Labour Government’s strategy centrally, delivered locally by teenage pregnancy co-ordinators. However, the coalition Government have disbanded the very small teenage pregnancy unit in the Minister’s department, which led on that. A third of the teenage pregnancy co-ordinators have been cut, many in high-risk areas. Do the Government have any concerns about losing the considerable and very difficult progress made in turning this intractable and historic situation around? What action are they taking to ensure that the downward trend in teenage conceptions continues, including, but not exclusively, the provision of sex and relationship education in schools?
Lord Hill of Oareford
The noble Baroness is right that the trend has been falling. As she says, the figure is at the lowest level since 1969. That is very welcome and I recognise that it is obviously in part down to the work of the previous Government. It is obviously important that the work delivered through PSHE and sex and relationship education is carried forward. That is something we are reviewing as part of that broader review to which I have already referred. Also, on the delivery of these services, and the progress that has been made on bringing down teenage pregnancy rates by local authorities, the Government think that the local authority is the lead on this. There is a quite a variation between different local authorities across the country but I am certainly in agreement with the noble Baroness that we need to make sure that that work continues.
Baroness Walmsley
My Lords, will my noble friend look at the work being done by David Lammy MP with teenage fathers from the Afro-Caribbean community, with a view to learning whatever lessons are appropriate from that work? Is this not an area where we ought to be able to work cross-party?
Lord Hill of Oareford
I agree. I would be keen to know more about the work that Mr Lammy is taking forward.
The Lord Bishop of Ripon and Leeds
My Lords, will the Government encourage the teaching of financial literacy as an important part of parenting, and in particular stress that while child benefit is of immense value to those with children, it would be ludicrous to suppose that having children to obtain that benefit made any financial let alone moral sense?
Lord Hill of Oareford
I agree very much with the right reverend Prelate on his second point. On his first point, financial education is important. As he will know, it is delivered as one of the strands of PSHE education. Also, as part of trying to improve financial literacy, the Government could do work on things such as basic maths. There is a correlation: in well run schools, thriving pupils who have ambition and aspiration are less likely to get into the kind of difficulty that we have been talking about. I very much agree with the right reverend Prelate.
The Earl of Listowel
My Lords, does the Minister share my concern that many of our schoolchildren will not experience stable and enduring relationships at home and that they may see many adults pass through their lives? If he does, is it not therefore important to ensure that schools can model for children what an enduring and reliable relationship is? Teachers can be equipped to do that through good training in child development, consultation such as that offered by the charity Place2Be and others, and the importance given to vertical tutor groups in secondary schools. These all support children’s ability to know about enduring and reliable relationships and be better parents themselves. I hope the Minister will agree.
Lord Hill of Oareford
I very much agree with the noble Earl about the importance of trying to help children to understand the importance of stability and stable relationships. I take his point that unfortunately too many children suffer from transient relationships at home. I know that many schools do extraordinarily good work to give children more order, discipline, shape and structure, which helps to replicate some of those things that, sadly, they do not get from their home life.
Education: Early Years
Lord Hill of Oareford Excerpts(12 years ago)
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The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Schools (Lord Hill of Oareford)
My Lords, I will try to give noble Lords something to cheer about. As my noble friend Lady Walmsley said in her excellent opening speech, there is a lot which the coalition Government can be proud of and point to. I will try to make that argument as we go on. I thank my noble friend Lady Walmsley for the thoughtful way in which she framed the debate. She got us off to a great start. We expected her to show her knowledge of the subject, but also her commitment to the interest of children, for whom we all know she is such a champion. As the noble Baroness, Lady Jones of Whitchurch, said, there is compete agreement across the House about the core case that my noble friend made: that children’s physical, emotional, language and cognitive development to the age of five are the foundations for the rest of their lives.
While people’s destinies are not set in stone—and I believe that school has the ability to transform children’s lives—those early years clearly influence how children learn, their physical and mental health, their future friendships and relationships. As my noble friend Lady Jenkin of Kennington set out, this is not least in connection with criminality. I agreed with her points about the economic benefits of effective early intervention—a point also made by the noble Lord, Lord Parekh—and with the case made by my noble friend Lady Tyler of Enfield, about the obvious link to social mobility. We have heard a lot of evidence of the benefits of early years education. As my noble friend Lady Tyler explained, the effective provision of pre-school education study showed very clearly that the benefits persist through school to the end of key stage 2. It certainly found that high-quality early education has a strong impact on the development of disadvantaged children. The OECD found that almost all countries’ 15-year olds who had attended pre-school outperformed those who had not.
We also know that children growing up in workless households tend to do less well at school and are at much greater risk of not being in education, employment or training later on. That is why the Government are committed to doing more to make it worth while for parents to work. Therefore, good quality, affordable childcare also plays an important part in supporting parents to return to, or stay in, the workforce. I agree with the noble Baroness, Lady Jones of Whitchurch, about the broad consensus and I recognise the important steps that the last Government took on this. Significant change and progress have been made in this area, going back some 20 years. The quality of early education provision is improving. In 2010-11 the proportion of early-years-registered providers judged by Ofsted as good or outstanding, for example, increased to 74% from 68% the previous year.
The 2012 early years foundation stage profile results, a measure of children’s development at age five, show continued improvements, especially in early language development. A recent international study of early education systems by the Economist Intelligence Unit ranked the British system as the fourth strongest in the world and noted the progress made in creating universal access for all three and four year-olds. However, as all noble Lords have argued this afternoon, there is a lot more to do and the attainment gap between the lowest achieving 20% of children and their peers is still far too big.
That is why, as my noble friend Lady Walmsley, argued, the coalition Government have made such a priority of early years. We have taken several steps to increase both the availability of places and the quality offered. As we have already heard, the free entitlement for all three and four year-olds has been extended to 15 hours a week, and 96% of three and four year-olds are taking up a free place. From this September, parents have more flexibility over when they can take their entitlement. They might be able to take it earlier or later in the day or over shorter periods, to make it easier to balance their family and work commitments. We have discussed the new entitlement for two year-olds. We are working with local authorities to ensure that they provide clear and transparent information for parents and to encourage them to take up their child’s entitlement.
We have talked about the review carried out on the early years foundation stage by Dame Claire Tickell. As a result, we have published a simpler EYFS that came into force this September. That cuts bureaucracy, allows practitioners to spend more time with children and places a stronger emphasis on learning and development. As the noble Lord, Lord Ramsbotham, reminded us, we have also introduced a new requirement for providers to review children’s progress at age two to help to identify areas where they might need additional support.
One area which we recognise as a crucial foundation for children’s future progress in reading and writing is early language development. The new Early Years Foundation Stage promotes communication and language as a prime area of learning for all children from birth and the new early learning goals in literacy specifically include expectations for children to be using their phonic knowledge to begin to read and write. I take the points made by the noble Lord, Lord Ramsbotham, about co-ordination. It is up to the Department for Education and the Department of Health to work together. Ultimately, I guess that it is for Ministers to provide the leadership which he rightly says is needed to pull these things together and drive them forward.
On the quality of provision, which has been a recurring theme this afternoon, we are investing in and seeking to encourage the development of the early education and childcare workforce. We have supported graduate training at national level for the early years professional status and new leaders in early years programmes. We now have more than 10,500 EYPSs. I can tell the noble Lord, Lord Parekh, that anti-discriminatory practice is a key part of that EYPS training.
My noble friend Lord Shipley asked about the Government's commitment to the development of graduate-level practitioners; yes, we certainly have that commitment. I hope that we make that clear in our response to the Nutbrown review. We have increased the number of qualified children’s centre leaders through the national professional qualification in integrated centre leadership.
We aim to recruit an additional 4,200 health visitors by 2015. My noble friend Lady Walmsley asked how the Government are doing on that. We are on track to meet our commitment. In 2011-12, three times as many health visitors began training as in the previous year. This year, we will start to see real growth, as the cohort of newly qualified health visitors start to join the frontline.
As I said, we commissioned the Nutbrown review on the next steps, and I was asked specifically about that review by the noble Baronesses, Lady Jones of Whitchurch and Lady Warwick of Undercliffe. We intend to respond in full to its recommendations. My honourable friend the Minister for Education and Childcare will do so shortly and will set out how the Government plan to support the development of a better qualified and well led early years workforce. I will follow up the important points raised by my noble friend Lord True about Montessori education, but I can say that officials will be pleased to involve Montessori organisations in this and ensure that we have their input.
My honourable friends Liz Truss, in my department, and Steve Webb, at DWP, are leading the Childcare Commission, to which my noble friend Lady Walmsley referred. It was set up in June. It is considering the availability and costs of childcare.
I take the point made by my noble friend Lord True about over prescription. We want professionals to have the flexibility to exercise their skills and judgment. One of the issues that that commission is looking at is how to encourage new childminders to register. Increasing childminder numbers will give parents more choice between group-based and home-based care, with the additional flexibility that childminders offer. We are looking into what can be learnt from other countries. We have heard a lot of examples this afternoon about practice in other countries and the commission will be looking closely at the lessons we can learn from them. To refer to the question from the noble Baroness, Lady Jones, we do want a system that is high quality as well as affordable.
We are in the process of contracting for the new Early Intervention Foundation, recommended by Mr Graham Allen, who has been mentioned frequently this afternoon. The contract will be for two years. It will operate independently of Government to advise commissioners on what works and to spread good practice. That relates to the point made by my noble friend Lord Shipley about the importance of evidence-based intervention.
Work is also under way with health and early years experts and practitioners to look at how we could introduce a fully integrated health and early years review at the age of two. We hope to do that from 2015. That also speaks to the point made by the noble Lord, Lord Ramsbotham, about bringing health and education together into an integrated system.
As noble Lords know, we are also running a trial of parenting classes for parents whose children are nought to five years old. The trials are being carried out in Camden, Middlesbrough and High Peak. Information on take-up is being collected as part of the trials evaluation. A parental participation survey is being collected and an interim evaluation report will be published next spring.
The noble Lord, Lord Northbourne, raised the important subject of parenting, as I would have expected him to do. He raised some interesting suggestions and if I may I will follow those up with him later.
A number of noble Lords mentioned funding and particularly the noble Baronesses, Lady Jones of Whitchurch, and Lady Warwick of Undercliffe. Early intervention remains a key priority for the Government and I am glad to have the opportunity to reinforce and restate that commitment.
The changes that we are making to the way we fund local authorities for early intervention are designed to give them maximum flexibility in the way they use funding to provide local services. Local authorities have been asking for this.
We are also using the opportunity of these changes to move funding for the two year-old offer into the dedicated schools grant so that places for two, three and four year-olds are funded through the same grant. In a recent consultation, that was the preferred option.
The total amount that we plan to spend on early intervention over the next two years has not changed as a result of the above. We have not cut funding for early intervention to pay for the extension of the offer of free early education to the 40% most disadvantaged two year-olds. My department received additional funding for this from HM Treasury and this has been added to the existing funding.
The money currently in the early intervention grant will continue to go to local authorities for early intervention activity. In 2013-14, £530-odd million will be added to the dedicated schools grant to fund free early education and childcare for the most disadvantaged two year-olds; £1.7 billion will move to CLG and will be paid to local authorities through the business rates retention scheme; and £150 million, which my noble friend Lord Shipley referred to, will be set aside to support early intervention activities that evidence shows have most impact. If we put those together, it means that Government will be giving local authorities over £2.4 billion for early intervention in 2013-14, rising to over £2.5 billion in 2014-15.
On the points raised by noble Lords about children’s centres, I agree with my noble friend Lady Walmsley and a number of noble Lords on the Benches opposite who spoke about the importance of children’s centres. The Government want to see the retention of a national network of Sure Start children’s centres. They act as a valuable hub for families to access these important services, and I know that they are greatly valued by local communities. As my noble friend Lady Walmsley acknowledged, there has been a small net reduction in children’s centre numbers. The latest figures I have seen, which were provided by local authorities, suggest that there have been 25 outright closures to date, which is less than 1% of all centres. The rest of the reduction is accounted for by local authorities reorganising and merging some of their children’s centres to make efficiency savings, as noble Lords have said. Local authorities have the funding to ensure they can meet their statutory duty to provide sufficient children’s centres to meet local need. They must consult before making significant changes, but fundamentally, the Government’s view is that local authorities should have that funding and the flexibility to decide how to allocate it.
The noble Baroness, Lady Massey, brought a new perspective to the debate by broadening it out and reminding us that whatever problems we have in our country, there are other countries where the problems are even more significant. DfID is engaged in a range of research related to early childhood development. I have been told that DfID programmes are currently supporting 4.5 million girls at primary level and at least 700,000 girls at secondary level, or will be by 2016, so there is work in hand. I was grateful to the noble Baroness for reminding us of a different group of children.
The noble Baroness, Lady Warwick of Undercliffe, asked about early years teaching centres and whether we would share learning from that model. Our view is that they are doing good work. Her suggestion is a good one, and we will actively look to ensure that that learning is shared.
My noble friend Lady Benjamin raised the important matter of toilets for young children at school and in early years. The EYFS requires that all early years providers have to ensure that there are an adequate number of toilets and separate toilets for adults. It also requires that fresh drinking water is available at all times. So far as school level is concerned, new regulations are coming, as the noble Baroness knows very well as she and I have had the chance to discuss them. They set out that washing facilities have to be suitable for pupils. There are also regulations covering the general health, safety and welfare of pupils and a requirement that there should be separate toilets for boys and girls aged eight or over.
My noble friend Lord True asked about the staff/child ratios for independent and state providers. The staff/child ratios in the EYFS apply to all providers, and they vary to take account of the age of the children and the qualifications of staff. He will know better than me that there is a technical difference between independent schools and maintained schools in reception year. I believe that the ratios are broadly the same, but the different wording reflects the different legislation that applies to maintained schools and to independent schools.
I hope I have picked up on the main themes that have been raised. I shall go through, and if there are any specific points, I will follow them up with noble Lords.
Baroness Jones of Whitchurch
I asked a specific question about funding. I am sorry to go on about it, but it is important. I asked about the statement made by Michael Gove in the Commons in October that the early invention grant throughout the life of this Parliament is going to increase. The Minister quoted some figures, but he did not say whether the total is going up or down. I do not know whether he can answer that this afternoon, or whether he could write to me.
Lord Hill of Oareford
I hope I said that the total funding going into early intervention is going up because of the new money that is coming in to pay for the two-year offer. The combination of the two means that it is going up. In this good and simulating debate there has certainly been widespread acceptance about the importance of the early years. I hope that I have managed to show the priority that the coalition Government collectively attach to it and some of the practical steps that we have taken. Although we have made some good progress at what we know is a difficult time financially, there is clearly much more work to do. We will be setting out further areas for action, both in terms of the early years workforce and how to improve the quality of childcare before the end of the year in our response to Nutbrown and also in setting out the findings of our childcare commission. I look forward to discussing those next steps with noble Lords then.
Schools: Classics
Lord Hill of Oareford Excerpts(12 years ago)
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The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Schools (Lord Hill of Oareford)
My Lords, I should probably start with a declaration of an interest: I am not a classicist. That will become evident as my comments unfold, as I shall clearly not be able to demonstrate all the qualities and attributes that a classical training would have endowed on me had I not been a mere historian.
I am grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Aberdare, for giving us the opportunity for this debate, not least for assembling the formidable brain power which has been assembled here and which has entertained us with a range of observations. He set out a compelling case for teaching classics in schools, a case that other noble Lords endorsed and, in many ways, amplified. We heard how the classics help to develop an understanding of English grammar and vocabulary, as the noble Baroness, Lady Warnock, argued; how they help with mastering modern European languages, as the noble Baroness, Lady Coussins, explained; and how they help to instil more disciplined ways of thinking that benefit children in other subjects.
When I had my own very small business, I was always interested in job applicants who had read classics because I knew that the chances were that they would be able to think logically, to write well, to express themselves clearly and to bring a different perspective. I agree very much with the points made by the noble Lord, Lord Stevenson of Coddenham, about the merits of a classical education from a utilitarian point of view as well. For people who think that the classics are dated, the noble Lord, Lord Aberdare, told us of his experience of debugging programs for IBM. The other day, I read that Mark Zuckerberg, the founder of Facebook, that modern communications phenomenon, was a classicist. The noble Lord, Lord Aberdare, I think, talked about the considerable emolument that would be derived—and he has made more than £10 billion, which constitutes a considerable emolument.
There are good practical reasons for children to study the classics, but we should not rest solely on the utilitarian argument that classics are good because they will help young people to get a job or to do better in other subjects. I agree with my noble friend Lord True on that. We should argue for education as being a good in itself. My noble friend Lord Thomas of Gresford reminded us that the power of the classics is timeless. We should want our children to have a window into a different world, to be thrilled or moved by the Greek myths, to be astonished by the achievements of the Greeks and Romans and to see how much we still owe to them today. Nor do I subscribe to the notion—the noble Baroness, Lady Coussins, made this point forcefully—that classics are somehow elitist and that they cannot have any relevance to children from poor backgrounds. It is patronising in the extreme to suggest that children on free school meals or who live in inner cities are not able to study Latin or that it is not relevant to their lives.
Like other noble Lords, I feel strongly that we should want the benefits of learning classics to be extended more widely. Yet, as we have heard, whereas 60% of independent schools were teaching Latin in 2011, the figure for state secondary schools was only 14%. For Greek, not surprisingly perhaps, the situation was even starker: 37% of independent schools were teaching Greek but only 1% of state schools were. So as my noble friend Lady Perry said, it is excellent news—and I agree with the noble Baroness, Lady Hughes of Stretford, on this—that there is a growing number of examples of state schools, primaries and secondaries, in some of the poorest parts of the country giving their pupils the chance to learn Latin and to learn about the ancient world. The Iris Project, which is led by classics departments in some of our leading universities, is taking Latin into inner-city primary schools in London and Oxford, and I think now in Liverpool and south Wales. Independent schools such as JAGS, Tonbridge, St Paul’s and King’s College, Wimbledon, are working with local primary and secondary schools to inspire an interest in Latin. My noble friend Lady Perry reminded us about the Minimus course and the fact that it has sold some 140,000 copies. We have also heard about the Mayor of London’s Love Latin initiative, which should reach 200 schools this year. Academies such as the ARK-sponsored Burlington Danes offer students the chance to study Latin and two European languages.
I have been particularly struck by the example of the West London Free School, one of our first free schools, which is consciously offering a classical liberal education. This comprehensive school has one-quarter of its children on free school meals. It has decided to make Latin compulsory at key stage 3—that is, up to the age of 14. It has drawn up its own curriculum and hired outstanding teachers from the independent sector to help to deliver it. It has, incidentally, been able to do that by virtue of the freedoms that academy status gives them—namely, freedom over the curriculum and freedom to employ good teachers from a wider range of walks of life. So convinced is it of the benefits of what it is doing and the impact on its pupils that it is setting up a local south-west London branch of its Classical Association. Its approach seems popular with parents, as it has just had nine applicants for every place.
We have heard this afternoon about a number of initiatives, many of which were prompted by the excellent organisation Classics for All, which certainly is reigniting an interest in the classics in state schools. Rightly the question put was: what are the Government doing to help to support that revival? Alternatively, as the noble Lord, Lord Butler of Brockwell, put it, one may ask whether there are any constraints that the Government can help to overcome.
The first point that I should make is that our overall approach is a permissive one. We want schools to have more freedom to decide what they teach. We have pursued that goal in two main ways. First, we are seeking to slim down the national curriculum for all schools, making it less prescriptive and leaving more time for schools to make their own judgments about what and how to teach and, in the context of today’s debate, freeing them up to teach classics.
Secondly, and of growing significance, academies do not have to follow the national curriculum. They have the freedom to develop a curriculum that they think best meets the needs of their pupils. More than half of all secondaries are now academies or on the way to becoming one and they have those freedoms. That number is going up the whole time. As I said, those academies also have greater freedom to employ staff from a variety of backgrounds, thus making it much easier to recruit teachers from independent schools or, as some independent schools are doing, to take a bright young classicist straight from a top university and to train them on the job.
New teacher recruitment was a recurring theme. We are providing bursaries of up to £9,000 for trainees studying to become teachers of Latin and Greek, which are priority secondary subjects. Schools where there is a demand for classics can also bid directly for School Direct places. The Teaching Agency aims to allocate enough teacher training places each year to match the demand for individual subjects. If demand goes up, the number of places that it offers will increase as well. I was asked specifically about the PGCE and the add-on. I will be happy to pursue that point further and to understand the details better. We are encouraging teacher training providers to offer more flexible solutions to the needs of schools and developing new PGCE courses in response to the new primary national curriculum, which is taking modern languages to younger pupils. Developing a love of learning a language means that providers of training are offering wider choices in language training, including Latin as part of a modern foreign languages PGCE.
I have mentioned the work being done by independent schools to support local schools to offer their pupils a taste of the classics. I am prompted by this debate to seek a meeting with independent school representative bodies to explore whether there is any more that we might be able to do together to see whether we can spread that. As has been mentioned, initially by the noble Lord, Lord Aberdare, we have also introduced the EBacc measure, which shines a spotlight on those schools offering the mix of subjects, including Latin and Greek, that are most likely to enable students to be able to go to the top universities. The effect of the introduction of the EBacc on schools seems to be striking. Whereas in 2010 22% of pupils in maintained schools took the EBacc subjects, we estimate that that figure will rise to 49% by 2014, which is quite a marked take-up.
I was asked specifically about having more than one exam board for Latin—the noble Lord, Lord Aberdare, asked me about the Government’s intention to move to one exam board per subject. As he knows, we think that it is necessary to protect the rigour of qualifications and to stop a race to the bottom on standards. That lies behind our thinking in moving to one exam board. We certainly do not want the new EBCs to prevent greater breadth of study and a balanced curriculum that includes time to study other subjects. We are exploring that as part of the current consultation.
By giving schools more freedom around the curriculum and employment, by raising the bar on academic achievement, by re-emphasising the importance of academic subjects through the EBacc, by tackling the culture of low aspiration for children from disadvantaged backgrounds, we are, I contend, helping to create an environment in which the seeds of a classical revival can take root. I will certainly draw some of the points made this afternoon to the attention of my honourable friend Liz Truss, who is the Minister responsible for these matters, and flag them up with her.
Rather than having a top-down approach with a range of new initiatives shooting off in all directions, we are seeking to build a schools-led system in which schools are more in the driving seat. I very much agree with all noble Lords this afternoon that the case for classics is strong. I applaud the work that is being done by its champions. I celebrate the encouraging signs that I think there are of quickening interest in the classics and I thank the noble Lord, Lord Aberdare, for bringing this matter to our attention this afternoon.