Financial Services (Banking Reform) Bill

Lord Higgins Excerpts

Monday 9th December 2013 Lords Chamber

[Lord Higgins (Con)]

My Lords, I thought the noble Lord, Lord Turnbull, was going to come in. I welcome these clauses, although these four new clauses add even greater length to the Bill in addition to the amendments that have been made. The rate at which this Bill has been growing has been quite extraordinary, and we shall have to wait and see how it ends up. I remain rather concerned at the way in which drafting has taken place. My noble friend might consider whether it would be appropriate to have some form of consolidation Act bringing together this and previous legislation. If the legislation is to be understood by bankers, or indeed by anyone, it will be necessary to correlate the various provisions which will exist after we have completed our debate. We have four new clauses at Third Reading, which is subject to tight rules.

I have merely one or two points. I am glad the ideas put forward by Mr Paul Volcker in the context of proprietary trading have been recognised as important. I have had many interesting exchanges with him, both as a Minister and as chairman of the Treasury Select Committee, and indeed in relation to the Claims Resolution Tribunal for Dormant Accounts in Switzerland, a quite different thing. He has been wise in all that he has said, but the problem is putting wise ideas into legislation.

As my noble friend has just said, if the Financial Times in the past few days is anything to go by the American legislation is going to be over 1,000 pages, while over here we are going to have a review and then a review of the review. This is going to take some time. Meanwhile the American legislation may be in place. What are we doing to co-ordinate the approach? This is an international matter. There are British banks operating in America and American banks that operate here. It would create considerable difficulties were the rules in one country to differ significantly from those in the other. A degree of international co-operation as soon as possible will be important if, as we all want, we are to ensure that proprietary trading does not carry both the risk to which my noble friend Lord Lawson referred and dangers in general to the banking system.

[Lord Phillips of Sudbury (LD)]

My Lords, I ask whether the independent review under Amendment 3 is on the same basis as the review carried out by the PRA under Amendment 2. Amendment 2 specifically refers to the risk factors that proprietary trading embraces, but there is no reference to that in Amendment 3 with regard to the independent review of proprietary trading. Is the second, independent review to be undertaken on a wider basis than the PRA review? Will it be able to look at some of the broader cultural aspects of proprietary trading by banks? I hope that question is not too late in the day for the Minister.

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[Lord Sharkey (LD)]

My Lords, I rise to move Amendment 21 and to speak to Amendment 20. I congratulate the Government on bringing forward their amendment to cap the total cost of payday loans. I am grateful to the Minister and to his officials for meeting me to discuss the issue and for providing us with copies of the letters between the Financial Secretary and the FCA.

Amendment 20 clearly has the right intent but it raises several important questions as do the letters between the Treasury and the FCA. Nowhere in the Government’s amendment or in their correspondence with the FCA is there any mention of the problem now discussed by the Minister of multiply sourced simultaneous loans. The Financial Secretary says in his letter to the FCA that the main aim of the cap is to ensure that PDL customers do not pay excessive charges for borrowing and to minimise the risk to those borrowers who struggle to repay and to protect them from spiralling costs, which make their debt problem worse. In short, far fewer payday loan customers should get into debt problems.

Simply imposing a cap, as I think the Minister was acknowledging, will not produce this result if borrowers can take out multiply sourced simultaneous loans. If borrowers can do this, any cap will be ineffective in controlling indebtedness. My amendment, as the Minister has said, proposes a ban on these multiply sourced loans, as is the case in Florida. I think I heard the Minister say that the FCA will consider the problem caused by multiply sourced simultaneous loans when he considers the mechanism of the cap. I see the Minister is nodding in agreement that that is the case.

My amendment also proposes a ban on rollovers, as the Minister has said. That is also the case in Florida. I remind noble Lords that in Florida no loan may be taken out until all previous loans have been settled in full and then only after a 24-hour cooling off period. Rollovers are banned in Florida because they are the chief way of luring borrowers into a spiral of increasing debt. Here in the United Kingdom, 28% of all payday loans are rolled over and 50% of payday loan revenue, according to the OFT, comes from these loans. The FCA does not appear to understand the problem with rollovers. In its October proposals it suggested that rollovers be limited to two. It provided no evidence to suggest that this would have the desired effect and it is pretty obvious, I think, that it would not. Five days ago, the financial services consumer panel recommended in evidence to the FCA that rollovers be limited to one. I think the case for rollovers being banned is very strong. Will the FCA explicitly consider banning rollovers and will it publish its cost benefit analysis—the one the Minister talked about—of the relative merits of banning rollovers and limiting them to one or two only?

The Treasury letter to the FCA raises other questions. The Financial Secretary states:

“The Government is also committed to ensuring that you can access the information you need to design the cap. The Government will bring forward secondary legislation to allow you to collect information to support your new duty as soon as possible”.

The Minister has tried to explain what some of this information might be, but I should be grateful for more clarification on exactly what the FCA is going to be looking for and also confirmation that the Government will publish a draft of the proposed secondary legislation well before bringing it to Parliament.

In his reply to the Financial Secretary’s letter, Martin Wheatley of the FCA says that it is possible for firms in other EEA member states to provide a payday loan service through the internet to UK consumers within the electronic commerce directive. He went on to say that this is not something that the FCA can mitigate. What does that mean? Does it mean that the FCA cannot cap such transactions and, if it does, what is the point of the Government’s Amendment 20? The Financial Secretary’s letter to the FCA makes reference, as the Minister has done, to data-sharing practices. It says:

“There are a number of regulatory interventions in the market which may help to create the right conditions to ensure the cap is effective. For example, the Government shares your concerns that data sharing practices may not be supporting good consumer outcomes”.

This all seems rather opaque and quite a long way from plain English. Does this mean that the Government want credit agencies and lenders to pool data? Does it explicitly include the consideration of establishing a real-time lending database? I should be grateful if the Minister could confirm to the House that the answer is yes in both cases.

The whole matter of a cap turns on effective implementation and the evidence suggests overwhelmingly that we need a real-time database of loans to do exactly that, but the level of the cap is also critical. Amendment 20 requires the FCA to secure,

“an appropriate degree of protection for borrowers against excessive charges”.

There is no attempt in the amendment or in the correspondence to define “excessive” or to give guidance about how a judgment of what is excessive is to be arrived at. This seems an important and, perhaps, critical defect in the amendment. Surely the FCA must be given some guidelines in defining excessive for the purpose of fulfilling its duty. For example, we already know that payday loan borrowers in Florida pay, at most, one-third of the costs that such borrowers pay here in the United Kingdom. Will the FCA consider this kind of disparity in its definition of “excessive”? Will the Government set out in writing and publish the guidelines that the FCA must follow, and the factors it must consider, in reaching a definition of what may count as “excessive”?

I turn briefly to subsection (1B) of the Government’s amendment. It states:

“Before the FCA publishes a draft of any rules … it must consult the Treasury”.

I accept that the FCA will consult widely and not just with the Treasury before it publishes these draft rules but I am concerned about what happens after the publication of such draft rules. The FCA’s performance to date is not an obvious guarantee that any such draft rules will be what is required under the Government’s amendment. For its October publication of the draft rules, which the Minister has referred to, the FCA considered all the available evidence and proposed to allow two rollovers but no cost cap of any kind. A month later, the Treasury considered the same evidence and decided that it was sufficient to require the imposition of a cap. In other words, the Treasury appears to believe that the FCA got it wrong, which does not inspire confidence in the judgment of the FCA.

For that reason, and for reasons of openness and transparency, I believe it is important that there is the opportunity and time allowed for detailed public comment on whatever draft proposals the FCA comes up with and, in particular, that Parliament is given the opportunity formally to scrutinise the FCA draft proposals. I should like to know whether the Government will commit to allowing that opportunity and that time for detailed public comment and for allowing Parliament that opportunity to scrutinise FCA draft proposals.

Finally, I should point out that nowhere in Amendment 20 or in the two letters that we have seen is there any mention of a limit on the amount of the loan or of a minimum or maximum term. Will the Government confirm that the FCA will explicitly consider both a limit on the amount and on the term of any payday loan? I repeat that I welcome the Government’s intention in bringing forward Amendment 20 and I look forward to hearing the Minister respond to the questions I have asked. I beg to move.

[Lord Higgins]

My Lords, I want to make two very brief points. The amendment refers to “charges” and to “high-cost credit”. However, the words “interest” or “the rate of interest” appear nowhere in the amendment. I would have thought that there was some case for explicitly including that in the Bill, because the use of the other, rather wider, expressions leaves too much scope for the situation to be fudged. I would be grateful if my noble friend would say something about that.

We have been talking very much about payday loans and their provision; but it has become apparent that a number of charges made overall by clearing banks sometimes can approach, if not exceed, the limits charged by payday loan providers. I would like my noble friend’s assurance that the organisation will take account of that also and, if necessary, deal with the problem of very high overall charges—particularly with regard to unauthorised overdraft charges, for example—made by clearing banks as well as by payday lenders.

[Lord Mitchell (Lab)]

My Lords, my head has been spinning in disbelief since the introduction of this Government’s amendments. Even two weeks ago the Prime Minister, the Chancellor and the Business Secretary were resolute in their opposition to any form of capping of interest rates offered by payday lending companies and other suppliers of short-term credit; yet here we are today, legislating for just such a cap. We are stating to the FCA that what was previously defined as a “may” now will become a “must”. That is a good outcome and I, for one, applaud the Government for this massive U-turn. It could not have been easy for them to eat their words, but politics is politics and if the heat has got too hot it is time to get out of the kitchen.

For nearly four years I have been working on a campaign to regulate payday lending. Of course, I knew about loan sharks and the terrible misery that they cause; but I had not really focused on the way this industry was developing. When I did, I was aghast. Here was a business that was enticing people into debt and playing on their vulnerabilities. Any way you cut it and any way you measure it, 6,000% interest is beyond morality and decency. I felt that it had to be regulated and that it was my duty to do so within this Parliament.

Last year we managed to persuade the Government to include an amendment to the Financial Services Act that gave the Financial Conduct Authority the power to regulate all aspects of payday lending and, in particular, to cap interest rates. We gave it the teeth, but sadly it did not bite. Indeed, it decided that it was not yet persuaded that these rates should be capped at all. One can only wonder: if 6,000% had not moved the FCA, would 10,000% or 100,000% do so?

A little-known fact is the extent of financial support that payday lending companies receive from the City. I have read that Barclays Bank lent Wonga over £250 million; when I investigated further I found that the number was very much higher. If you consider how much all the clearers and all the other financial institutions must be lending to the payday lending companies, the number must be many billions of pounds. The City purports to have washed its hands of this grubby sector, but in truth it participates by using payday lenders as surrogates.

I have this to say to Barclays and, in particular, to its chairman. If your mission really is to clear up the mess of the last 15 years, then please tell me: what is your bank doing, funding the payday lending industry? We have come a long way in these past four years and tonight will be a milestone. But we need to go further still. I address these comments to the FCA. Please ban all advertising for short-term loans targeted at children. It is bad enough that people have to borrow money from the payday lenders—but giving payday lenders carte blanche to use sophisticated advertising to encourage young children to persuade their parents to get into more debt has to be morally wrong.

Despite appearances to the contrary, I am not against the payday loan industry. We need it, it is essential and it must be successful, but we want an industry that offers loans at fair rates and does not extort. I think that this amendment achieves just that.

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[Lord Newby]

My Lords, noble Lords have raised a number of issues and questions. I shall do my best to answer. The noble Baroness, Lady Oppenheim-Barnes, discussed the way in which the total cost of the loan, as opposed to the interest rate, is portrayed, and of course many people do not understand interest rates. The Government are discussing with the European Commission the relative prominence of the total cost of the loan. This discussion is taking place in the context of the Commission’s review of the consumer credit directive, so I hope we are well on top of that.

My noble friend Lord Sharkey asked a raft of questions. I hope that I managed to write them all down. He asked whether the FCA understood the particular problems of multiply sourced simultaneous loans. I can assure him that that is within its remit. My noble friend talked about rollovers and asked whether the FCA would look at one or none as part of this review. I can give him that assurance. He asked whether he could see a draft regulation in a timely manner. We will try to do that. Of course, if we are going to consult on draft regulations, things such as the odd 90 days here and there make a lot of difference. Our ability to consult properly at any point in this process requires us to follow something like the timetable that I set out earlier. He asked whether data sharing is being considered as part of the FCA’s remit. I can assure him that the FCA is looking at that.

My noble friend asked for a definition of “excessive” and why it was not in the Bill. The FCA will be looking at existing definitions of excessive, including that in Florida. Different people in different places who cap payday loans have different definitions of excessive. There is no single definition that is uniquely right. It has to be taken in the context of all the other factors and the overall design of the scheme. The FCA will be looking at international definitions as part of that work.

My noble friend asked whether there will be an opportunity and time in Parliament for debate on the publication of the draft rules. That partly goes to the speed with which we do that. If, as I set out, the FCA publishes a consultation paper by the end of May, it will be perfectly possible for Parliament to debate it. There are a number of ways in which that could be done. In your Lordships’ House, it is now very easy for individual Members to get a debate on an issue within a very few weeks, even if no other formal debate was allowed. I would be very happy to raise that issue in the usual channels. Finally, my noble friend asked whether the FCA will consider the limit to cover both the amount and the term of the loan. I can give him that assurance.

The noble Lord, Lord Higgins, asked why we do not refer to interest in the Bill. The provision covers every aspect of the cost of a payday loan, of which interest is only one part. The definition in the Bill subsumes interest.

[Lord Higgins]

Would it not be better none the less at line 9 of the amendment to say “against excessive rates of interest and charges” as the rate of interest is quantifiable whereas charges are much more amorphous?

[Lord Newby]

Charges are also quantifiable. The aim, as we have set out very clearly, is to cover all components of the total cost of the loan.

The noble Lord, Lord Higgins, asked about the high charges that high street banks sometimes impose. Issues there can be investigated by the FCA and no doubt it may well wish to do so.

The noble Lord, Lord Mitchell, asked a number of questions. I first congratulate him and my noble friend Lord Sharkey on the persistence with which they have pursued this issue, bringing before the House evidence of what is really happening in the market and helping everyone involved in the process to gain a better understanding of the scale of the problem. I can confirm that the government amendment does what it says in that the FCA will not have any option but to make rules. It has to do it. The “must” is a real “must”. In terms of the powers that the Treasury will have, the purpose here is to ensure that the Treasury has an input into the consultation and development of the policy by the FCA. However, we have been very clear that the primary responsibility must rest with one body and that the appropriate body is the FCA. I will come back to the noble Lord’s point on timing in a moment.

The noble Baroness, Lady Cohen, said that she wished that credit unions could be more like payday loan companies. I think many noble Lords would share that view but, sadly, they have some way to go before they get into that position.