EU: Future Relationship

Lord Hamilton of Epsom Excerpts

Thursday 27th February 2020 Lords Chamber

[Lord True]

My Lords, that argument was put in 2016 and has been put ever since, but in that time the UK has benefited from enormous inward investment and I have every confidence that it will continue to do so.

[Lord Hamilton of Epsom (Con)]

My Lords, my noble friend’s Statement has exposed the speciousness of the argument that for some reason the UK should be treated as a special case because of our proximity to the European continent. Does he agree that this is actually an indication of the insecurity of the EU? It is a euphemism for saying that we should be punished for daring to leave the EU. This is not exactly a vote of confidence in the future of the EU.

[Lord True]

My Lords, I am not going to be critical of the EU. As I have said, we respect its right to conduct itself as it wishes. I repeat: we certainly do not accept the proximity argument that requires that we should be in a customs union. It is not an argument that applies in North America, and I do not believe it applies on the European continent either.

Affordable Housing

Lord Hamilton of Epsom Excerpts

Wednesday 3rd July 2019 Lords Chamber

[Lord Hamilton of Epsom (Con)]

My Lords, I refer to my interests in the register. The Ministry of Defence is one of the main landowners in this country, and some of its land gets sold off for development. If it is sold below market price, the Ministry of Defence is effectively subsidising low-cost housing across the country. Is it right for that to happen?

[Lord Young of Cookham]

The Ministry of Defence had a target of disposing of land in 2015 that would provide 55,000 homes. In my initial reply, I said that the Government could take into account the wider social costs and benefits and the public interest. That is a good reason for not going through the whole process of putting the land on the open market and trying to get the best price but instead trying to do a quick deal that provides affordable homes, which may be more broadly in the public interest than the process initially followed.

GDP per Capita

Lord Hamilton of Epsom Excerpts

Tuesday 11th June 2019 Lords Chamber

[Lord Young of Cookham]

I challenge what the noble Baroness said about the economy weakening. The economy has grown continuously for nine successive years. Employment is at a record level. Real wages are rising. The public finances are now under control. We are in the middle of the pack for future growth in the IMF forecast. Some of the issues she raised are matters for the spending review—both the amount of grant for local government and the shared prosperity fund—but she is unduly pessimistic in painting that scenario.

[Lord Hamilton of Epsom (Con)]

My Lords, is not the example of Germany, given by the noble Lord, Lord Blunkett, very relevant? Despite the billions spent by the West Germans on East Germany, it is largely emptied of business and people.

[Lord Young of Cookham]

I think the comparison was not direct, as I am sure the noble Lord, Lord Blunkett, will recognise. The disparity between the west and the east of Germany was far greater economically and in almost every other consideration, including socially, than the gap between England and the rest of the United Kingdom. While I understand where the noble Lord is coming from, the parallel he gave is not one that should be followed too closely.

Elections: Electoral Commission Recommendations

Lord Hamilton of Epsom Excerpts

Thursday 28th June 2018 Lords Chamber

[Lord Young of Cookham]

The noble Lord draws attention to a debate taking place next Tuesday, I think, on the Select Committee report on political polling. That, I think, is probably the appropriate place to raise that. I have seen the reports. My understanding is that what happened was not illegal, because the information was not put into the public domain on election day, but I agree that this is an issue that could be raised on Tuesday. The Minister who has the good fortune to reply to that debate will have a slightly longer answer than the one the noble Lord has just received.

[Lord Hamilton of Epsom (Con)]

My Lords, further to the remarks by the noble Lord, Lord Grocott, on the election of hereditary Peers, does my noble friend agree that there is nothing more arbitrary than the appointment of Peers to your Lordships’ House? At least those who are elected, even by a very small electorate, are sifted to some degree.

[Lord Young of Cookham]

My noble friend makes a valid point: there is a small number of noble Lords who can have some claim to democratic representation. Whether my noble friend would extend that argument to the argument that we should all be elected, I very much doubt.

Railways: Disabled Passengers

Lord Hamilton of Epsom Excerpts

Thursday 24th May 2018 Lords Chamber

[Lord Young of Cookham]

My recollection is that when the buses Bill went through your Lordships’ House a few years ago an amendment was passed obliging buses to have both audio and visual information available, and my understanding is that the regulations to facilitate that will be introduced shortly. In the meantime, 27% of bus services have accessibility, making it possible for those in wheelchairs to use public transport.

[Lord Hamilton of Epsom (Con)]

Is my noble friend not being rather modest about his role in controlling the privatisation of the railway services? Surely a great tribute should be paid, given the enormous numbers of extra passengers travelling by privatised rail.

[Lord Young of Cookham]

I am enormously grateful to my noble friend. Pre-privatisation, when the rail network was in public ownership, I had to go to the Treasury on bended knee to plead for investment in trains, and there was always education, health and defence. One of the key benefits of privatisation was that once the railway industry was in the private sector that constraint fell away, and there was a dramatic increase in investment in the railways after privatisation.

Terrorism: Public Alert Technology

Lord Hamilton of Epsom Excerpts

Monday 16th April 2018 Lords Chamber

[Lord Young of Cookham]

I begin by commending the noble Lord on the report he did for the Mayor of London, which had a number of recommendations —127—on how better to deal with terrorism, of which this was one. I reassure the noble Lord that the Cabinet Office is taking this seriously; I had a meeting with officials this morning at which I set out a timetable for the next phase in this approach. I agree with him that there is a real potential to reduce harm to people and mitigate damage to property if we make progress with a national alerting scheme, but there are some real issues—technical, political and administrative—that need to be addressed before we can make progress with the scheme.

[Lord Hamilton of Epsom (Con)]

Does my noble friend accept that when there were attacks on London transport, what the police actually did was to switch everybody’s mobiles off in case they were used to trigger another device? Does that not bring into question how useful it would be to put this alert out on mobiles which might, at that stage, be switched off?

[Lord Young of Cookham]

Any progress will of course be made after consultation with the police, but my understanding is that that problem can be overcome. Basically, what we are looking at is the reverse of a 999 scheme: instead of the citizen telephoning the emergency services and asking for help, the emergency services contact the citizen and give the citizen advice. There is real potential to avoid damage to individuals and to property if the scheme is worked up, but there are some issues that need to be addressed before we can make progress with a trial.

House of Lords (Hereditary Peers) (Abolition of By-Elections) Bill [HL]

Lord Hamilton of Epsom Excerpts

Friday 23rd March 2018 Lords Chamber

[Viscount Trenchard]

The noble Lord, Lord Grocott, has indeed accepted the amendment—

[Lord Hamilton of Epsom (Con)]

When it comes to the question of wasting time, surely voting on a Motion that has been withdrawn is a bigger waste of time than anything.

[Viscount Trenchard]

That was indeed the point I wished to make, and which my noble friend has made more eloquently than I could. But the noble Lord—

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Campbell-Savours (Lab)]

My Lords, I just make a procedural observation. There will be tens or hundreds of thousands of people watching our proceedings on television either today or this evening. Are they not entitled to know that most of the people who have spoken in this debate are actually hereditary Peers, defending their interest? I suggest that from now on during this debate, each person who rises to speak who is a hereditary declares that interest so that the public outside know exactly what is happening today in Parliament?

[Lord Hamilton of Epsom]

My Lords, I should like to speak as a Peer appointed to this House and pick up the remarks of my noble friend Lord Trenchard that we appointed Peers are somehow deserving of being in this House. I have always considered myself to be very lucky to be in this House; I am not sure how deserving I am. Let us face it, if you have an electoral system, which the hereditary Peers do, surely that picks out the best of the hereditaries and raises the quality of people in this House overall. That is the only point I want to make. It would be very sad, when we think of the very high quality of some of the hereditaries who we have in your Lordships’ House, if we introduced a system to make it impossible for them to be here any more. That is why I support the amendments and hope to have a chance to demonstrate that in the Division Lobby.

[Baroness Hussein-Ece (LD)]

My Lords, before the noble Lord sits down, is he satisfied that 51% of the population is excluded under the system that he supports in the bid of the noble Lord, Lord Trefgarne, to wreck the Bill? Does he not think that the rest of the country thinks that absolutely outrageous?

[Lord Hamilton of Epsom]

I think the rest of the country might take the view that everybody should be elected to this House. What they probably resent is the whole business of appointment where we get put into this House just on the whim of our party leaders. That does not seem to me a very scientific basis on which people should be put into this House—just how well you get on with the leader of your party.

[Baroness Watkins of Tavistock (CB)]

My Lords, I want to speak as a Peer appointed through the Appointments Commission. I am, as you know, a nurse, and there was huge pressure from the nursing profession to get another Member here. I know that I, like you, was extremely fortunate to be selected, and I know some really excellent nurses who were not. The 1999 Act was designed to make this House more representative of the population that it serves. It is not about being in with a party, it is about contributing to the work of the House. I am aware that several hereditary Peers contribute in an excellent manner, but why should not some of them come through the Appointments Commission and apply in that way in future?

[Lord Cormack]

My Lords, we have lost sight of one important principle. The Bill of the noble Lord, Lord Grocott, does not eject any hereditary Peer from this House. We value their contribution. Despite the remarks of my noble friend Lord Trenchard, I still support the Bill. In this year of all years, as we celebrate the 100th anniversary of the Royal Air Force, we should all remember the enormous debt that we owe to my noble friend Lord Trenchard’s grandfather, but we really ought now to move on. This House has demonstrated in previous votes a year ago and again this morning—although I accept the strictures of my noble and learned friend Lord Mackay up to a point—conclusively and absolutely that the majority of Members of your Lordships’ House support the principles of the Grocott Bill and therefore oppose this string of amendments which would destroy the Bill.

We should also have regard to the admirable Burns commission, which perfectly properly parked two questions. One was the question of Bishops and the other was the question of hereditary Peers. But at the same time, it pointed out that if we reduce the size of the House, as those of us who truly care about the House wish, the percentages would be out of joint. Therefore, what the noble Lord, Lord Grocott, is doing, is not against the spirit of Burns at all. Indeed, it makes the enactment of Burns—I should say the acceptance of Burns, because legislation is not needed—all the more necessary and all the easier.

I say to every hereditary Peer who is here this morning—some are not, many of whom I know strongly support the Bill—that your position is not at risk. Your contributions can continue until you are summoned to higher places or decide to retire. But this is a constructive, modest measure, which has already had overwhelming support from all parts of your Lordships’ House. Those who seek by a maverick exercise to frustrate the will of your Lordships’ House are in fact not serving it in the way they should.

[Lord Hamilton of Epsom]

For somebody who has just been involved in an extensive filibuster on the European withdrawal Bill, I think that is a bit cool, really.

[Lord Cormack]

What is offensive is the remark just made by my noble friend. If he had been here, he would have heard that most of the speeches made on the withdrawal Bill have been brief—certainly, mine have been. I have every right, as has every Peer in this House, to speak out on issues of great moment. His slur is unmerited and, if he respects himself and the House, he really ought to withdraw it.

European Union (Withdrawal) Bill

Lord Hamilton of Epsom Excerpts

Tuesday 30th January 2018 Lords Chamber

[Lord Hamilton of Epsom (Con)]

My Lords, I shall address the amendment to the Second Reading of the noble Lord, Lord Adonis, which calls for a second referendum. It has rather been dismissed because noble Lords say that this is not the Bill to amend in that way so we should not consider it. But we should consider it because around the House there seems to be a certain amount of support for the whole idea of a second referendum. That raises more questions in my mind than it answers.

The first question is: when would we have the second referendum? Would it be in October this year, when the negotiations should have been completed and before it is ratified by the 27 different countries in the EU and the EU Parliament? Or, would it be when the agreement had come back, having been ratified in March next year, just before we leave the EU under the Article 50 provisions? Or, let us face it, the devil is always in the detail, and we could go through the next 21 months laid down by Michel Barnier and have the final agreement with the EU. The problem is that at that point we would have left. There is a timing problem that needs to be addressed by those in favour of a second referendum.

The next question is what you put on the ballot paper. Do you ask: “Do you like this deal, and if you do, do you want to stay in the EU?”, “Do you dislike this deal and still want to stay in the EU?”, or “Do you dislike this deal and would like to leave the EU”? It is complicated, whichever way you look at it. It is so complicated that all it would do is create more confusion, rather than anything else.

Then there is the noble Lord, Lord Foulkes, who would like a parliamentary vote to say that we have changed our minds and we will stay in the EU. I ask him what position that puts me in. I have campaigned to leave the EU but Parliament tells me that I cannot. There I am, with a decent majority in the country who voted in the referendum to leave, but Parliament says, “No, it was all a great mistake and we should stay in”. I have no option then but to take to the streets because I cannot get any representation in Parliament. All I can do is protest outside Parliament.

[A noble Lord]

Have a referendum.

[Lord Hamilton of Epsom]

We have dealt with the referendum. The referendum is extremely complicated. I do not know that there would be a clear answer.

The accusation is that the Government have negotiated extraordinarily badly. I will not defend the negotiations; I think we played a weak hand very badly. But at the end of the day, these negotiations go on with the EU. Before we could continue the negotiations, three totally bogus things were raised. One was that we had to agree on the Irish border. Hold on: the Irish border will be the only land border that we have with the EU when this is all over. How can we separate that from a trade deal that we do with the rest of the EU? It is absolutely ridiculous. How can you treat EU citizens living in this country separately from the immigration policies we will have with the EU when a final deal is done? Then there is the money. It was said that we must agree on the money before we agree anything else. I heard somebody say the other day that it was rather like walking into a restaurant and calling for the menu and for the waiter to come along and say that you had to pay for your dinner before you had even ordered it. The whole thing is ridiculous.

The bill for what we had to pay started at €100 billion. It has come down a bit, I am glad to say. But why are we being accused of being intransigent? The noble Lord, Lord Wilson, said that there was a great argument for not being hurried. Hold on: I have never stopped hearing from the EU that the clock is ticking and that we must get on—all these ridiculous elements have been raised that we must deal with before we can move on. As far as I can see, all the delay has come from the other side, not from the Government.

Then there is the constant argument that we do not know what we want. Yes we do: we want an ad hoc free-trade agreement with the EU so that we can carry on selling things to it and for it to sell more to us, as we have been doing so far.

I finish on the whole issue raised by the noble and learned Lord, Lord Hope of Craighead. He asked a viable question about the powers taken under the Bill. I have campaigned for years to try to get powers back from Europe. Let us face it: those powers are massive, as the noble Lord, Lord Pearson, reminded us. The Henry VIII provisions were used to impose EU edicts on Parliament. I am not in the business of seeing the Executive taking all those powers. We should re-strengthen Parliament and take advantage of that at this stage. Maybe we should have a sunset clause so that these powers lapse after a period, but it is not our business to see the Executive strengthened as a result of the Bill.

House of Lords (Hereditary Peers) (Abolition of By-Elections) Bill [HL]

Lord Hamilton of Epsom Excerpts

2nd reading (Hansard): House of Lords
Friday 8th September 2017 Lords Chamber

[Lord Rennard]

I am grateful for that intervention; that is a highly significant point. It is very clear that some of those most involved in the negotiations of 1999 would not favour our being where we are today, and would favour this Bill making progress. The argument that we cannot discuss this issue or make progress, because of an agreement in 1999, is absurd in terms of parliamentary democracy.

What, for example, would be the point of our debating the EU withdrawal Bill, if the European Communities Act 1972 had been binding on successor Parliaments? Would the noble Lords fighting to preserve hereditary by-elections also be arguing that we cannot consider leaving the EU, because of votes by both Houses ratifying a treaty 45 years ago and subsequently confirmed by the 1975 referendum? I suspect they will not make that argument.

[Lord Hamilton of Epsom (Con)]

I thank the noble Lord for giving way. The noble Lord, Lord Rennard, was, like me, appointed to this House on the whim of his party leader. Does he really think that is more legitimate than being elected from a body of hereditary Peers?

[Lord Rennard]

The noble Lord considers it a whim—I suspect many other noble Lords would disagree. There are at least some criteria by which people who are elected leaders of political parties make appointments. A hundred years after the attempts to reform the House of Lords before the First World War, when it was announced by the then Liberal Government that we would end the hereditary principle to replace it with the popular one, I do not think we can justify continuing to maintain the hereditary presence in any way. It seems that we must let this Bill proceed and we must vote for a minor, but important, reform to improve the credibility of our Parliament.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Anderson of Swansea (Lab)]

My Lords, I only wish that other noble Lords were prepared to give that same assurance. We might then indeed make some progress. As the wags say, this is déjà vu all over again. I was surprised when my noble friend Lord Grocott told me earlier that it is only the second time that he has introduced this Bill, as it seems to have recurred a number of times. I looked at what I said last time and, to my surprise, I adopt all I said at that time.

In my view, the case for the Bill is overwhelming. The status quo is indefensible—but of course, that does not stop a handful of noble Lords from opposing it. To choose members of the legislature simply by accident of birth is surely absurd, as absurd as going on to the top deck of an omnibus and choosing men—as the noble Lord, Lord Pannick, said, it is only men. It would perhaps be better to go into the dining room of the Athenaeum and choose just the men who happened to be there. I make no comment on the quality of the existing hereditaries, save to say that I am very impressed by them, but we do not know whether the sons of those same hereditaries will be as competent and as diligent as them.

[Lord Hamilton of Epsom]

Surely the effect of an election is that you sort out the best candidates.

[Lord Anderson of Swansea]

I am not wholly sure that that is always the position in the House of Commons, and, given the smallness of the electorate, it is unlikely to be the case in the House of Lords.

It is rumoured that there is in Whitehall an official book—a number of Members of your Lordships’ House have been officials—from which civil servants draw when they wish to block an initiative and prevent necessary change. There are many devices set out in this book. One is, “This is not the appropriate time”. If not now, when? Another is, “This is not the appropriate vehicle”. If not, what is the appropriate vehicle? Then there is, “There should only be a comprehensive package of reform”. How comprehensive is comprehensive? Clearly, only incremental steps are feasible in practice. “We agree in principle, but the drafting is deficient”. Well, accept the principle of the Bill. “A deal was done”. Are we to say that the deal was cast in stone for all time, whatever happens? Surely, the drafters did not imagine that 18 years on, we would still be in the same position.

I look forward eagerly to hearing what particular devices the Minister will draw on in his reply from the same litany of excuses for inaction—perhaps it will be a whole mixture of these—but the best argument which has been used, the only one of any substance, is that a committee is sitting whose recommendations we await. I hope that the remit of the Lord Speaker’s committee is sufficiently wide to include the hereditaries. However, if it is not, as my noble friend Lord Grocott pointed out, the 90 hereditary Members who are here would increase their numbers proportionally, and therefore the whole position would be even more anomalous. Perhaps we can be enlightened on that.

We know that the Lord Speaker’s committee will make its recommendation next month, but generally we do not know what the Government’s position is on the Bill, save that almost certainly they will oppose it. We know we have had the threat that a certain very limited number of Members will move amendments and presumably filibuster with the object of killing the Bill, and that should not be so. We go around the world trying to teach colleagues in other countries about democracy. Surely, this is an area in which we are mightily deficient, and we should change it as soon as practicable. I support the Bill.

Public Bodies: Israel Boycotts

Lord Hamilton of Epsom Excerpts

Thursday 25th February 2016 Lords Chamber

[Lord Bridges of Headley]

The noble Lord raises lots of issues, but this is about boycotts being conducted by local authorities, which I would argue are counterproductive. They widen gaps in understanding, poison and polarise debate, and block opportunities for co-operation and collaboration.

[Lord Hamilton of Epsom (Con)]

My Lords, I was in Israel last week as a guest of the Israeli Government when my right honourable friend Matt Hancock announced this guidance that he was giving to local authorities. As both Israel and the United Kingdom are members of the WTO, surely it is illegal to impose these boycotts. They would actually be against the law.

[Lord Bridges of Headley]

My noble friend is absolutely right. Such boycotts would be open to judicial review.