Ukraine (International Relations and Defence Committee Report)

Lord Grocott Excerpts

Thursday 6th March 2025 Grand Committee

[Lord Grocott (Lab)]

My Lords, our Select Committee was half way through its taking of evidence when we were rudely interrupted by a general election. It is a tribute to the noble Lord, Lord De Mauley, and his predecessor in the chair, the noble Lord, Lord Ashton, that we picked up the pieces after the election and completed this report. It is a tribute as well to our secretariat, who were terrific.

If I were to summarise the lessons we learned in our report from the war in Ukraine, I would say that they are a surprising mixture of the old and the new. On the old side, we have the front line and the trenches, which are eerily reminiscent of conflicts over 100 years ago and which showed the importance of mass in military operations. On the new side, we have the evidence of the huge importance of drones, which, as we say in paragraph 183, are ubiquitous in Ukraine for intelligence, target acquisition and reconnaissance, as well as for direct attacks. Then, aside from the mechanics of warfare is the international context in which the war is being fought, on which I very much agree with everything that the noble Baroness, Lady Coussins, said. What has the war told us about the standing of the West in the international community, in particular those countries of the global South?

First, on the importance of mass, as we say in paragraph 34,

“the evidence we heard points to the current size of the British Army being inadequate”.

Before we even begin to talk about increasing the size of the Army, we need to focus a little on the immediate problem of the apparent inability to recruit enough people to maintain present strengths. The figures we had were that, up to July 2024, 11,940 people joined the regular Armed Forces, while, in the same period, 15,700 left. We need a 25% increase just to stand still. I would like to hear from the Minister the strategy we now have for delivering the numbers required, particularly in the light of the increased funding announced last week. How much will be accomplished by retaining existing personnel and how much by new recruits? I am sure he agrees with me that retention has great advantages because, in a sense, you already have the finished product.

I would also like confirmation—I think this is such an important point in recruiting—of the fact that skills acquired in a career in the Armed Forces are extremely valuable for life outside the military, and special emphasis should be given to this powerful selling point. In our evidence, we heard that the armed services are consistently in the top 10 of UK apprenticeship providers, with no fewer than 24,800 people undertaking their apprenticeships in 2022.

Finally on recruitment, the Government said in their response to us that:

“The Armed Forces need to continue to attract a range of diversity, talent, skills and experience which is fully reflective of the society it serves”.


Which groups are particularly underrepresented, and are there good grounds for believing that targeting them will bear fruit in the recruitment challenges facing the forces?

Now to the significance of new technology, especially drones, in the lessons learned in Ukraine. The sheer scale of the use of drones in Ukraine is staggering. Dr Ulrike Franke from the European Council on Foreign Relations told us that drones

“are omnipresent on the battlefield”.

She said,

“we are talking about hundreds of thousands of small drone systems being used, and lost, every month”.

Two issues concerning drones stand out from our evidence. The first is the rapidity of development of drones and of defence systems to counter them. This means that there is, in effect, a drones arms race, with any advantage to either side always in danger of being short-lived. The second issue is simply one of drone production capacity. As we say in our report, it is estimated that

“Russia is producing around 300,000 drone units per month”,


compared with Ukraine’s production of 150,000. I ask the Minister: where are we in the drones arms race? Are sufficient resources being provided to keep us ahead in drone technology and defence systems? Is the industrial capacity available to produce drones on the scale that modern warfare requires?

Finally, I turn to the lessons we should learn from the Ukraine conflict about the international context and the standing of the West. In paragraph 34 of our report’s recommendations, we say:

“As the UK Government is facing a world where the Global South is becoming more assertive, with some countries leaning towards China or Russia, it is vital for the UK to be more proactive and have a strategy on how to engage with the Global South”.


The fact that 40 countries are sanctioning Russia because of its aggression can give only limited comfort to the West, bearing in mind that the overwhelming majority of countries are not imposing sanctions, and many of those are helping Russia, in one way or another, to evade the effects of sanctions. I would like to hear the Minister’s judgment about what the war in Ukraine has told us about the standing of the West in general in the international community and of the UK in particular. The war in Ukraine has been long and bloody. Lessons have to be learned. I look forward to the Minister’s response.

Ukraine and Georgia

Lord Grocott Excerpts

Thursday 16th May 2024 Lords Chamber

[The Earl of Minto (Con)]

The noble Lord makes a very good point. The UK is a firm friend of the Georgian people and we have a long-standing defence partnership. We support their pursuit of the legitimate desire for a sovereign, free and democratic future, and particularly their lean towards a Euro-Atlantic trajectory. There is a very high level of diplomatic pressure both here and in Tbilisi to make certain that our commitment is got over and the clarity of our intent is made absolutely clear.

[Lord Grocott (Lab)]

Can the Minister confirm that the repulsion of the recent Russian advances in Ukraine has been affected by problems of ammunition supply, not of sophisticated weapons? Can he reassure the House of our efforts, and those of other NATO countries, to provide the required ammunition? Not providing it creates huge problems for the Ukrainians’ gallant efforts.

[The Earl of Minto (Con)]

The noble Lord makes a very good point. The recent attacks by the Russians are driven by numbers of people as much as by ammunition. NATO, its allies and other interested parties are co-ordinating a massive effort to get as much ammunition and required military support into Ukraine as possible, at the request of the Ukrainian armed forces, to ensure that they can hold and repel any additional Russian pressure. I will quote the Answer to the Urgent Question:

“Russia’s newly formed northern grouping of forces has attacked Ukraine’s Kharkiv region, taking control of several villages”.


The border town of Vovchansk is almost certainly an immediate Russian objective and is currently contested between Russian and Ukrainian forces. It goes on:

“By opening up an additional axis of attack, Russia is almost certainly attempting to divert Ukrainian resources away from other parts of the frontline and to threaten Kharkiv, the second largest city in Ukraine”.


It would take very substantial forces to overwhelm, and we do not believe they have them.

Armed Forces: Remuneration, Housing and Family Support

Lord Grocott Excerpts

Monday 18th September 2023 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Goldie (Con)]

As a number of your Lordships have indicated, it is important to make clear how we value what we ask our Armed Forces personnel to do across the piece, whether it is pay, accommodation, conditions or tackling some of the challenging maintenance issues that have arisen. We are doing our level best to make sure that there is improvement; there is now clear evidence of that improvement.

I say to my noble friend that I think one of the most exciting things to happen recently has been the Haythornthwaite review, which is an innovatory, robust piece of work that defence is already working on, particularly to introduce flexibility—the zig-zag careers. That may sound like jargon, but it means that we give people in the Armed Forces the option to change paths and move direction: we give them the chance to switch between regular and reserve and we give our Civil Service the chance to switch between the service and industry. That is responding to the modern world in which we live; we are trying to make sure that we are sympathetic to the circumstances that confront each of our Armed Forces families.

[Lord Grocott (Lab)]

My Lords, I have listened carefully to the Minister’s responses to a pretty specific Question about spending. I notice that at no time have I heard any figures in her responses, which is what you would expect to hear in answer to questions about spending. I repeat: my noble friend Lord Tunnicliffe asked her about day-to-day spending on remuneration, housing and family support for members of the Armed Forces. Can she tell us in simple terms—I have an open mind and will listen to her answer—precisely what those figures were a couple of years ago, say, and what they are today?

[Baroness Goldie (Con)]

I am grateful to the noble Lord. Let us take the example of service families’ accommodation and look at that investment. Some £337 million was invested there in the financial years 2020-21 and 2021-22 combined, with a further £163 million in the financial year 2022-23. The forecast for 2023-24 is £312 million following the recently published defence Command Paper refresh—which I am sure the noble Lord is an authority on—which announced an additional £400 million of funding over two years; £220 million of that has been received for this financial year. I hope that that gives a flavour of where some of the spend is going.

Defence: Support Ships and Type 32 Frigates

Lord Grocott Excerpts

Tuesday 20th June 2023 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Goldie (Con)]

I thank the right reverend Prelate for making a number of extremely important points. The whole essence of the national shipbuilding strategy was to ensure that we got shipbuilding in the United Kingdom on to a more stable and sustainable basis. The right reverend Prelate is absolutely right: the MoD’s direct spend supports 29,800 jobs in the shipbuilding industry—that includes submarines—with a further 21,300 jobs supported indirectly. There is an opportunity for shipbuilding in the UK to deliver exactly the sort of benefits to which the right reverend Prelate refers.

[Lord Grocott (Lab)]

Can the Minister explain how asking questions, however persistently, about providing the Royal Navy with the equipment that it needs is somehow talking it down?

[Baroness Goldie (Con)]

If the noble Lord had listened to my preface in response to the noble Lord, Lord West, he would have heard me say that I do not impugn the right of the noble Lord, Lord West, to hold the Government to account. However, I think the Chamber would agree that there is a certain predictability to the character of the noble Lord’s questions; I know from first-hand experience the volume of questions with which I have to deal. I am not impugning his right to hold the Government to account but to do so repetitively, without ever counterbalancing the argument by acknowledging some of the Royal Navy’s enormous triumphs, gives a slightly disproportionate and not totally representative picture.

Ukraine Update

Lord Grocott Excerpts

Thursday 10th March 2022 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Symons of Vernham Dean (Lab)]

My Lords, I thank the Minister for answering the questions as fully as she has while skilfully not answering in such a way as to give away too much information at such a sensitive time. I think she has done brilliantly.

[Lord Grocott (Lab)]

My Lords—

[Lord Butler of Brockwell (CB)]

My Lords—

Defence and Security Industrial Strategy

Lord Grocott Excerpts

Wednesday 24th March 2021 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Goldie (Con)]

I say to the noble and gallant Lord that I love the analogy; it is very apposite. He identifies an important point. He is aware that there is constant consultation and discussion within the MoD with our single services about what their needs are. In the past, the blockage has been in translating need into the production of kit or equipment. This new strategy makes it clear that there will now be a much smoother, clearer progression. The early engagement with industry is critical to establishing that we have identified what the single services want—and then we have to make progress in delivering that as efficiently and as swiftly as possible.

[Lord Grocott (Lab) [V]]

My Lords, given the Prime Minister’s commitment to thousands of additional jobs in the defence sector, can the Minister tell the House how the jobs envisaged in this Statement will be distributed across the regions and nations of the United Kingdom? How will the strategy contribute to levelling up between the north and the south? If she cannot give all those details at the moment, can she please place a copy of them in the Library?

[Baroness Goldie (Con)]

Yes, it is a very important part of what we are doing. As the noble Lord spoke, I was looking at page 13 of the strategy document, which has a marvellous depiction of the reach across the United Kingdom of what we do with industry and security. It is very clear to me that this is all about the union and levelling-up. The noble Lord will look at those locations and see the potential for many of these areas to benefit from the fruits of the new strategy.

Register of Hereditary Peers

Lord Grocott Excerpts

Monday 9th January 2017 Lords Chamber

Asked by

[Lord Grocott]

To ask the Leader of the House whether she is satisfied that the requirements of the Register of Hereditary Peers are compatible with equalities legislation.

[The Minister of State, Ministry of Defence (Earl Howe) (Con)]

My Lords, the Equality Act 2010 provides that neither a life peerage nor a hereditary peerage, as a dignity or honour conferred by the Crown, is a public or personal office for the purposes of the Act. As such, the register of hereditary Peers is not subject to equalities legislation. As provided for in the House of Lords Act 1999, Standing Orders of the House make provision for the replacement by elections of hereditary Peers who are Members of this House. It is therefore a matter for this House, when regulating its own affairs.

[Lord Grocott (Lab)]

My Lords, I am glad to hear the Deputy Leader confirm that this will ultimately be a matter for this House. I ask him also to confirm that the current register of hereditary Peers—containing as it does the names of all those people eligible to stand in by-elections—contains the names of 199 people, just one of whom is a woman. I would have thought that this statistic alone should bring into disrepute the whole by-election system for the replacement of hereditary Peers. I should be grateful if the noble Earl, Lord Howe, would do the House a favour by announcing that the Government will support my Bill, which costs nothing, hurts no one and has overwhelming support in this House. In so doing, we would be able to consign this whole by-election system to the dustbin, where it deserves to be.

[Earl Howe]

My Lords, I must declare an obvious personal interest in the context of this Question, as an elected hereditary Peer. But in the context of what the noble Lord seeks to achieve by his Bill, it would not in our view be an incremental reform. Reform of that kind would clearly change the means by which membership of this House is determined, as well as its composition, and would be a fundamental change to how it operates. The Government’s position is that comprehensive reform of the House of Lords is not a priority during this Parliament.

Europe: Renegotiation

Lord Grocott Excerpts

Tuesday 10th November 2015 Lords Chamber

[Lord Grocott (Lab)]

My Lords, all three Front Benches have told us that this is a momentous decision of huge, crucial, national importance. I can only say as kindly as I can muster the words that neither the debate nor the performance of the Government so far has in any way matched up to this rhetoric. The Prime Minister did not want a referendum, but he was forced into having one. He did not know what he wanted to negotiate. We did not know what he wanted to negotiate. Our European partners did not know what he wanted to negotiate. The only thing we know for certain, and I am sure the Minister can confirm this, is that whatever he does negotiate will result in his returning to Downing Street saying that it has been a triumph, and he will then recommend a yes vote.

[The Earl of Courtown]

The noble Lord, of course, is very welcome to his opinion on this. I do not agree with him. My right honourable friend the Prime Minister is focused on renegotiating and reforming the UK’s relationship with the EU. As he has said, if he succeeds he will campaign to keep the UK in a reformed European Union, but if he does not achieve these changes he rules nothing out.

Tax Credits (Income Thresholds and Determination of Rates) (Amendment) Regulations 2015

Lord Grocott Excerpts

Monday 26th October 2015 Lords Chamber

[Lord Grocott (Lab)]

Does the noble Baroness not acknowledge that there is at least a certain irony in that, for five of the last five and a half years, her party gave strong support to the Cameron-Osborne Government? Now that Messrs Cameron and Osborne come forward with a proposal that they do not like, they are suggesting that the right course of action is a somersault. Would it not have been a lot easier, and maybe a lot more principled, if she and her colleagues had decided to bring down this Government a lot earlier?

[Baroness Manzoor]

I thank the noble Lord for his intervention. He is right to raise that point and quite right to ask that question. As I understand it very clearly, we did veto these proposals.

I have no doubt that this House could spend many hours debating our constitutional role. I, and all those on these Benches, take our role very seriously and will continue to push for reform that means that this House has real accountability to the electorate. But this debate is not about that. This is about putting to rest an issue which is of immense—

--- Later in debate ---

[Earl Howe]

Of course, I do accept that. The amendment of the noble Baroness is expressly asking the Government to do something other than what is in the regulations. By definition, that means that if her amendment were carried, we could not bring back the same set of proposals. The implementation of these regulations would not be delayed, as the noble Baroness is suggesting; it would be thwarted entirely. So, she is asking the House to accept a false proposition. It is very interesting that the noble Baroness herself has recently given an interview which certainly implied that the amendment of the noble Baroness, Lady Hollis, is a fatal one. In the interview she gave to the Huffington Post, she said that if the amendment of the noble Baroness is carried, the Government cannot go ahead with the cuts. Well, that, to me, is very fatal indeed. Therefore—

[Lord Grocott]

I am really quite surprised at the noble Earl, given all his experience and the respect in which he is held in this House. He seems to be suggesting that there is no significant difference between a fatal amendment and a non-fatal amendment. In the time I have been here, which is less than his, there has always been a clear distinction between the two—“binary” is the word he used in another context. Indeed, the Leader of the House seemed to be unclear in her opening remarks about the distinction between the Lib Dem amendment and the Labour amendment, but the difference is surely fundamental. If he does not accept my proposition, could he at least enlighten the House as to the professional advice from clerks to him and the Conservative Front Bench about which of these amendments are fatal and which are not.

[Earl Howe]

There is a clear difference in the wording—that is unarguable—but the effect is exactly the same. That is the point I am making.

Armed Forces: Pension Scheme

Lord Grocott Excerpts

Monday 22nd July 2013 Lords Chamber

[Lord Astor of Hever]

My Lords, because of the complexity of pensions calculations, establishing the exact number of Army personnel who fall into this category would require manual analysis of the records of those selected for redundancy. This could be undertaken only at disproportionate cost. However, to ensure the redundancy programme is fair, selection criteria have been published by each service and, while rank and seniority are reflected in selection criteria, length of reckonable service is not. This means that individuals might be made redundant either just before or just after the length of service at which they qualify for an immediate pension. Redundancy criteria are based on the future needs of the Army. Exempting personnel because of proximity to pension point would be contrary to this principle and would mean selecting others instead.

[Lord Grocott]

My Lords, the mood of the House in response to the Minister’s answers is one of considerable concern. It is no answer to the serious example spelt out in detail by my noble friend Lord Touhig, which seems to show a grave injustice, to say that this grave injustice applies to only 1.2% of the people affected. It is a grave injustice to them and, at the very least, I would appeal to the Minister—who listens carefully to what is said by the House—to go back to the department and say that there has been a very unhappy response to the answers he has given today.

[Lord Astor of Hever]

I will take on board what the noble Lord says. I cannot make any promises, as we have spent a lot of time considering this scheme and it has been very carefully thought out.