Ukraine

Lord Grocott Excerpts

Tuesday 13th May 2014 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Warsi]

My noble friend makes an important point; she knows that this funding was cut back in 2011, and of course matters have changed since then. This matter should be kept under review. The decision made by the BBC will be editorially independent, but in light of how much of this conflict appears to be about a war of words and misinformation we should certainly consider the matter.

[Lord Grocott (Lab)]

My Lords, I agree with the Minister’s assertion that the referendums that were held in the east of Ukraine were clearly deeply flawed, and would not pass any normal test of a free and fair election. But I am troubled by the implication of much of what she said, that somehow the feelings in eastern Ukraine and in Crimea are entirely an anxiety manufactured by Russian foreign policy, and that they bear no relation whatever to the real feelings of the people in the area. I put it to her that we are all democrats; we all respect the judgment of the people. Is it really the position of Her Majesty’s Government that whatever the views expressed by people in eastern Ukraine and in Crimea on separation, devolution or independence and whatever their judgment is, these people must remain within the present boundaries of Ukraine under the present constitutional arrangements there? I ask this, of course, with the background of a referendum shortly to take place in part of the United Kingdom about its future boundaries.

[Baroness Warsi]

I sincerely hope that that was not the impression that I gave. If I did, I apologise; it was not how I intended it. From the outset of this crisis, we spoke about making sure that the legitimate concerns of the Ukrainian people, who were raising concerns about minority rights and language, and about decentralisation and much more localised governance, were taken into consideration. This formed the basis of the Geneva agreement, and we have put money into making sure that that is the kind of work that the Ukrainians have started and put in place. Alongside that, the commitments made by Russia too need to be fulfilled and we see no progress on that.

Israel and Palestine

Lord Grocott Excerpts

Monday 24th March 2014 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Warsi]

I thank my noble friend for that question. She comes to these matters with great expertise. She has asked a number of questions—not only Oral Questions but Written Questions—on a regular basis. I can assure her that we take these matters incredibly seriously. There has been a worrying increase in violence in the West Bank. In 2012, nine civilians were killed; in 2013, 27 civilians were killed; and the number of civilians who have been injured is also on the increase. Last week I raised these matters with our officials and only yesterday—Sunday— our ambassador spoke with the national security adviser and again put our concerns before him.

[Lord Grocott (Lab)]

My Lords, it is true, is it not, that in recent weeks the international community has taken a dim view of the occupation of one country by a neighbouring country and that this has led, quite properly, to a flurry of international activity, reference and the activation of sanctions? Yet, given that this question quite rightly refers to occupied territories which have been occupied now for more than 40 years, am I right in thinking that that there is no sense whatever of the same level of urgency and commitment being given to liberating these occupied territories as there is when similar events occur in other parts of the world?

[Baroness Warsi]

It is important that I try to focus on this Question. I understand why people try to read across to other matters, but successive government policies on the Occupied Palestinian Territories have been clear. Successive government policies about the two-state solution based on the 1967 borders, with agreed land swaps and a settlement for refugees in Jerusalem as a shared capital, have been the same. There is a Kerry framework agreement on which we hope progress will be made and we hope that that will be done by around the end of April. We are supporting and continue to support that, and we hope that it will yield some positive results.

European Union (Referendum) Bill

Lord Grocott Excerpts

Friday 10th January 2014 Lords Chamber

[Lord Grocott (Lab)]

My Lords, whatever one’s views on the merits of the Bill—I shall come to those in a moment—I hope we can agree on one point, which is that, as a parliamentary occasion, this has certain “Alice in Wonderland” characteristics. I just remind Members of the origins of this Private Member’s Bill, which were as follows. At each stage I feel we probably need another chapter of Erskine May.

First, it was a Bill that the Prime Minister wanted to include in the Queen’s Speech but felt that he did not have the parliamentary strength to do so. Normally, if Prime Ministers—certainly Prime Ministers I have known and, I dare say, most other people—want a Bill in the Queen’s Speech, they tend to get that Bill in the Queen’s Speech. They have various mechanisms that they can deploy to achieve this. However, of course it did not go into the Queen’s Speech because the Minister in charge of constitutional affairs—heaven help us—who is the Deputy Prime Minister, decided that it should not be in the Queen’s Speech because he was opposed to legislating for an “in or out” referendum on our membership of the European Union. He is also, of course, the only party leader who fought the previous election on a manifesto commitment to do that. So the strangeness develops as we go along this journey.

We then have what I can only describe as a slightly humiliating process whereby the Prime Minister keeps all his fingers crossed that one Back-Bencher will be successful in the private Members’ ballot and he can persuade that Back-Bencher to introduce the Bill that he himself could not introduce. It then gets stranger. As the Bill proceeds through the House of Commons, a heavy three-line Whip is imposed on the Conservative Party to vote in favour of the Bill.

If I were being generous I would say, “I’m sympathetic to the Prime Minister because it’s a coalition—we’re in a funny old game at the moment—and maybe he can be excused for this”. But of course the truth is that he has been hoist with his own petard, because what should normally happen in a situation like this is that the Prime Minister should say, “I can’t do what I think is in the national interest to do. Therefore I will call a general election and see whether the public agree with me or not”. That option has, however, been removed by one part of the constitutional vandalism of this Government, which is that they passed the Fixed-term Parliaments Act. The noble Lord, Lord Armstrong, said at Second Reading—he can reread that speech with pleasure—that the problem with that is that it puts Prime Ministers and Governments into a straitjacket. That, of course, is where we see ourselves today. So those characteristics make this situation very unusual if not unique.

As for the principle of a referendum, I have no problem whatever with the principle of an “in or out” referendum on our membership of the European Union. I would be surprised if there were many people in my dear old party who have an objection in principle to that. It was, after all, a Labour Government who introduced what at that time was a brand-new constitutional device: in 1975 we introduced a Bill on which many of us voted, one way or another, and we had our first ever referendum. That is the correct thing to do for a matter of constitutional significance of this kind. For accuracy, I should record that I voted no in that referendum, and I may say that I have never been persuaded subsequently that I made a colossal error of judgment. Indeed, at the very least, had the public followed the same direction as I did, we would be able to be home today instead of debating this Bill.

So I do not have any problem with the principle whatever. However, I do have a great problem—this was the constitutional point that the noble Lord, Lord Turnbull, made—with the notion of this Parliament telling the next Parliament what to do. That point is fundamental, and it is particularly so. We have heard several people ask, “What does this House of Lords have to do with telling that House of Commons whether it should or should not go ahead with a piece of legislation?”. My answer is that this House of Commons should not be telling the next House of Commons what it should be doing. That is particularly true as we are nearly in the fifth year of this Parliament—we come back to that wretched Fixed-term Parliaments Act again—so many people down the other end will either not be standing at the next election or, please God, a few of them on the government Benches will not be back and will be spending more time with their families.

So that is where we are in respect of one Parliament trying to bounce the next. That is my answer to all those who say—and several speakers have said it—that the right thing to do is to put this to the people and that that is the democratic thing to do. It is not democratic for a Parliament elected in 2010, in what is nearly its fag-end year, to tell a Parliament that will be elected in 2015 what it should do in 2017. That is a matter for that Parliament to decide, not this one. We should have no concern, anxiety or sense of embarrassment about saying that this is something on which we should cave in to the Commons.

In particular—I will make this very brief procedural point—it really would contort our procedures in this House to get this Bill back to the House of Commons by 28 February, which is what the procedures would require us to do. We have to have gaps between Second Reading and Committee, between Committee and Report and between Report and Third Reading, and if there are any amendments, they will all have to be dealt with by 28 February. You would never do that with a constitutional Bill, or with a Bill with constitutional implications of this sort.

I conclude by saying that I am not opposed to a referendum in principle at all, but we should look in the history books. The right way to do this is the way in which the dear old Labour Party did it in 1974. It fought a general election with a commitment to a referendum in its manifesto and it carried out its manifesto commitment. If that is what the Labour Party decides, then it will be in the Labour Party manifesto. That is the procedure that the Conservative Party, I respectfully suggest, ought to adopt. That should be enough. That is the correct way to proceed, not the way that is being recommended by the Bill.

Referendum: European Union

Lord Grocott Excerpts

Monday 29th July 2013 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Warsi]

I am glad the noble Lord has got that off his chest. He will recollect that the amount of support the Government had in relation to that particular opt-out was clear in relation to the majorities in both Houses.

[Lord Grocott]

Am I right in my understanding of the Prime Minister’s position on the European referendum? In the event of there being a Conservative victory at the next election, he will hold a referendum that will be based on negotiations which he will have conducted and, when he has completed those negotiations, he will recommend a yes vote. If I am wrong in that assumption, can the Minister explain the basis on which the Prime Minister would recommend a no vote?

[Baroness Warsi]

The Government’s position is very clear: there will not be a referendum before the next election. The Conservative Party has made its position entirely clear. The noble Lord understands that there will be a period of negotiation and then we will go to the country and ask people to vote. What would be interesting for these Benches and the country to hear is what the Labour Party’s position is. We believe that the country should be allowed a vote and a decision. I would like to hear what the Labour Party thinks.

Israel and Palestine: West Bank

Lord Grocott Excerpts

Monday 21st May 2012 Lords Chamber

[Lord Howell of Guildford]

I think my noble friend is well aware, because I have said it many times in your Lordships’ House, that the British Government regard the settlements policy and the expansion of settlements as illegal. We also deplore the recent tendency, which seems to be going against previous trends, of legalising previously illegal settlement outposts. These are again matters that we raise again and again with our opposite numbers in the Israeli Government. We believe that the policy of settlements is one of the barriers to the higher purpose we all want to achieve of reopening negotiations and getting a long and lasting settlement of the Israeli/Palestinian situation.

[Lord Grocott]

My Lords, I am sure that the House will fully understand and sympathise with the difficulty that the noble Lord, Lord Howell, has in answering Questions of this sort. It has been the case for many Ministers from both major political parties over the years. Basically, they have to express concern about what is happening, which is the profound and fundamental illegality of one country occupying another country’s land. It seems to everyone who looks closely at these things that all we seem able to do is express our concern and raise the matters with the Israeli authorities. Surely, the question should be: at what point do the Government of Israel face any disadvantage whatever—at the moment, there seems to be none—from continuing with the illegal settlement activities?

[Lord Howell of Guildford]

I am grateful for the sympathy of a former Chief Whip for a Minister when there are two sides to these questions and an element of balance is essential in assessing the realities and prospects. There is more that this country can do and seeks to do, collectively with our allies such as United Nations colleagues, within the EU and bilaterally. We can press on the various points that may yield some progress towards reconciliation and settlement. Israel’s security has to be considered. The noble Lord says that there is nothing to lose but always at the back of people’s minds are questions of Israel’s security. At the same time, these are occupied territories. We want to see an end to that process and a two-state solution that is not undermined by the settlements. These are all aspirations towards which we can and do work, beyond being concerned day-to-day about specific issues such as the one we are discussing now.

European Parliament

Lord Grocott Excerpts

Monday 5th March 2012 Lords Chamber

[Lord Howell of Guildford]

My noble friend has a point. The present closed-list system was introduced in 2002; it was the general principle of PR that came in in 1999. My noble friend is right that the closed system gives considerable weight to parties and that a different system might give greater weight to candidates. For the moment there are no plans to make a change, as I indicated. However, the Question makes it clear that issues lie ahead about changes in voting procedures and constitutional reform, and that it might make sense for a future Parliament, or in future in some other way, for these matters to be reopened and considered.

[Lord Grocott]

My Lords, is not the clear lesson from the experiment in proportional representation that has been used in the European Parliament for the past 15 years that it leads to a lower turnout, far more spoilt ballots and a far weaker connection between the Members of the European Parliament and their constituents? Is it not time that we listened to the people and the overwhelming vote 12 months ago by a majority of two to one in favour of first past the post and against fancy electoral systems, and recognise that the simple change that we should make in Europe is to scrap the existing system and revert to first past the post?

[Lord Howell of Guildford]

That is certainly a viewpoint. My query would be whether it is the system that produces the low turnout or the cause. One could make an argument either way. The noble Lord has his views on matters of voting procedure and no doubt we will have many opportunities in future to debate them.

West Bank and Gaza

Lord Grocott Excerpts

Thursday 9th February 2012 Lords Chamber

[Lord Howell of Guildford]

The right reverend Prelate speaks with great wisdom. This is obviously the aim; it is certainly the aim of the United Kingdom. We make our contribution through a variety of ways: obviously through the EU and the quartet, bilaterally and in every other way. However, the principles he describes are right and will have to be upheld with great vigour, because clearly there are people operating in the whole turmoil and mélange of the Middle East uprisings who are not so interested in democracy. These people have to be outfaced.

[Lord Grocott]

The Minister said in answer to an earlier Question that our attitude towards any arrangement between Gaza and the West Bank would be whether the Administration could be seen, in deeds and not just in words, committed to a two-state solution. Can he offer any evidence whatever that, on the other side of the equation, the Israeli Government are in any way showing by deeds, not words, their commitment to a two-state solution?

[Lord Howell of Guildford]

The noble Lord is quite right to point out the need for symmetry. When one sees that illegal settlements continue, there is obviously a danger if not of despair then of recognising that the goal of the two-state solution is not as fully accepted on the Israeli side. We must work to change that. Many people, in Israel and outside, see that a solution lies in this direction for better peace and stability for the people of Israel, for an end to their security problems and, of course, for better peace and stability for the Palestinians.

UNESCO

Lord Grocott Excerpts

Wednesday 16th November 2011 Lords Chamber

[Lord Howell of Guildford]

I am not sure that the noble Lord has got that right at all. It is perfectly true that Mr Netanyahu is not, or does not appear to be, a great proponent of negotiations at the present time, but the quartet is proposing some views. We think that there are pressures that can carry negotiation forward and we are not at all convinced that the Palestine statehood idea, if it went to the Security Council and produced the veto and the freezing up of negotiations all round, would be much of an improvement on the situation. I agree with him that it is not good, but it would certainly be very much worse in our view if we followed this course.

[Lord Grocott]

My Lords, in terms of acts that could be considered to be threatening to any future peace talks, surely there can be no equality between on the one hand the Palestinians wanting full membership of UNESCO, which is a fairly benign movement in its way, and on the other hand a profoundly aggressive movement: the continuing extension of settlements in the Occupied Territories? There really is no equality, surely, between those two acts.

[Lord Howell of Guildford]

No, none whatever. We regard the continued expansion of settlements as illegal, most unwise and highly provocative. That is part of the broad scene, and that must halt as part of the move forward to the negotiation that will bring Palestine to its full and rightful statehood. I agree. I am not quite sure what point the noble Lord is making. There is no comparison at all.

Israel and Palestine: West Bank

Lord Grocott Excerpts

Thursday 7th October 2010 Lords Chamber

[Lord Howell of Guildford]

My noble and learned friend, as we would expect, is entirely right: this is a central issue. However, confronting it are the apparent religious arguments of the settlers, who insist that they have some sort of historical right to build. Until the matter is resolved along the lines that my noble and learned friend rightly suggests, we will be in difficulties. We continue to press on this issue with the utmost vigour.

[Lord Grocott]

Given the welcome reminder to the House by the noble Lord, Lord McNally, of the commitment of William Hague—and, I am sure, of the noble Lord, Lord Howell—to the importance of human rights and, indeed, universal human rights, is it not almost impossible to imagine a worse violation of one’s human rights than having one’s country illegally occupied for more than 40 years and for that occupation to be not just static but developed all the time through the continuation of illegal settlements? Surely the time has come for more concerted international action to ensure that the human rights of the Palestinians go some way to being properly recognised.

[Lord Howell of Guildford]

I hope very much, as I think must everyone, that that time has come and that some kind of solution can be reached. As I am sure the noble Lord appreciates—it hardly needs saying—the other side of the issue is the security of the people of Israel, who want to live in peace, and that has to be balanced against the need to move on from this ghastly blockade and the difficulty represented by the Occupied Territories. Therefore, there are problems that we cannot wish away but what the noble Lord says is of course the right way forward.

Gaza Flotilla

Lord Grocott Excerpts

Wednesday 2nd June 2010 Lords Chamber

[Lord Elystan-Morgan]

My Lords—

[Lord Grocott]

My Lords—

[Baroness Anelay of St Johns]

My Lords, perhaps I may assist the House. I do not think that we have yet heard from a Conservative speaker. I know that my noble friend Lord Cope of Berkeley has been trying to intervene.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Howell of Guildford]

I am sure that the noble Lord is right but, as my right honourable friend pointed out in his Statement, it is precisely the completeness of the blockade in blockading not merely weapons but all other supplies that has given birth to the tunnel arrangements and the kind of black-marketing and control of trade that have poisoned the whole Gaza scene. If the blockade were lifted, the case for the tunnels would disappear.

[Lord Grocott]

My Lords, I welcome the Government’s clarity and robustness, first, in saying that the inquiry must be seen to be absolutely independent and rigorous and, secondly, in saying that the blockade must be lifted. The Minister said—I am not sure how precisely he intended that the word should be interpreted—that the blockade must be ended by “civilised” means. We all agree with the word “civilised”, but it does not demonstrate the urgency that is needed in the lifting of the blockade, as we remember the unremitting and continuing suffering of innocent people in Gaza, who as recently as 18 months ago lost 400 of their children in a war. The international community must address the lifting of the blockade as a matter of urgency.

[Lord Howell of Guildford]

I agree with that and hope that nothing that I said earlier contradicts that view. Israel must urgently find and adopt a better way of limiting any arms and bombs going into Gaza, while at the same time providing for the needs of the people of Gaza, which are desperate and urgent. It is also urgent that the Hamas rocketeers stop firing rockets into Israel. I used the word “civilised” to indicate that, if both sides move away from this violent brutality, we will get urgent progress.