Israel and Gaza

Lord Grocott Excerpts

Tuesday 16th January 2024 Lords Chamber

[Lord Cameron of Chipping Norton (Con)]

It is very important that we hear from everybody. One of the things that I do with the responsibilities of the aid and development portfolio that is now squarely within the Foreign Office is to make sure that we listen to all the NGOs, all the experts and all the people who can make a difference when it comes to getting aid in and trying to relieve this desperate humanitarian situation.

[Lord Grocott (Lab)]

When the Foreign Secretary said

“I am worried that Israel has taken action that might be in breach of international law”,


did he have in mind the principle of proportionality in armed conflict and whether it is a proportionate self-defence by Israel to have been responsible so far for some 24,000 Palestinian deaths, including 10,000 children?

[Lord Cameron of Chipping Norton (Con)]

What I meant when I said that was simply that I worry about these things. It is my job to worry. The Foreign Office has a job, which is to look at the legal advice and work out whether Israel is committed to, and capable of complying with, international humanitarian law, and then, based on that judgment, we have to take a series of actions, including looking at things like export licences. We always urge Israel to obey international humanitarian law, and it is important that we do so.

Occupied Palestinian Territories: Humanitarian Situation

Lord Grocott Excerpts

Thursday 9th November 2023 Lords Chamber

[Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon (Con)]

My Lords, I assure the noble Baroness—I have said this before about the hostages—that we are working with many of the countries she highlights. Qatar, for example, as the noble Baroness will know, is playing a key role in this respect. That is a key focus for us in our priorities. There are three areas. We want those who need to leave Gaza to leave, the hostages to be released and the aid to go in. Those three things require that we work towards ensuring that the conditions on the ground sustain that. Let me reassure the noble Baroness, in terms of not just the hostage release but the future, that the near neighbours to Israel need to play a role as partners in peace. I can assure the noble Baroness that, from our conversations and the discussions and diplomatic engagement we are having, they are very seized of that priority.

[Lord Grocott (Lab)]

My Lords, sooner or later there will be a ceasefire. The only question is: how many people will get killed between now and when the ceasefire takes place? We all know the pattern after that. It will not end the conflict: there will be a period of quiet and then another flare-up, which we hope will not be as bad as this one. There is no prospect of any peace in this part of the world until the Palestinians have what the Israelis have long had: a state of their own. I want to hear from the Minister an assurance that he will not turn his back, as the rest of the world tends to as soon as the immediate conflict is over, and that he will ensure that the British Government—despairing as they must currently sound about a two-state solution—realise that you cannot have two states when you recognise only one. The Palestinians deserve no less.

[Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon (Con)]

I can assure the noble Lord. I have been a Minister for a while, but I will share with noble Lords that this is probably one of the most challenging and toughest not only briefs but occasions when I am standing before your Lordships’ House, speaking about what is currently happening and the shocking events in Israel on 7 October. Subsequently, we have seen what is being endured by innocent Palestinian civilians in Gaza—this has to stop. I mentioned this being sustained in my opening comments; I will not turn my back, and I hope that noble Lords will not turn theirs. There will not be a short-term solution; this will require long-term focus. Looking around this Chamber, I am sure that whoever stands in my place in the months and years to come will also reflect the importance of finding a lasting solution—it is not papering over the cracks, as the noble Lord said, because this will erupt again. We need to ensure that terrorist organisations such as Hamas are not in governance positions, which is why we support the Palestinian Authority. Ultimately, as we, the Americans, the Europeans and the Gulf states have said, sustainable peace can be achieved only when there are two states, Israel and Palestine, living side by side—not just independent but ultimately, we hope, learning that coexistence is the way forward.

Occupied Palestinian Territories

Lord Grocott Excerpts

Monday 27th March 2023 Lords Chamber

[Lord Goldsmith of Richmond Park (Con)]

My Lords, I fully subscribe to the comments my noble friend quotes. It is very hard to negotiate if one side does not believe that you have the right to exist, and it is clear from the security situation today that things are particularly fragile. Last year, a very large number of Palestinians and Israelis were killed by acts of violence, and 2023 started the same way. We are all appalled by the recent terror attacks near Jerusalem that killed two Israelis, and the attack on Sunday 26 February, which killed two Israelis on the West Bank. We condemn these attacks, as we do all such attacks, in the strongest possible terms, and we condemn the glorification of violence that so often happens among those in Gaza.

[Lord Grocott (Lab)]

Does the Minister acknowledge that for years, if not decades, Ministers in his position on that Front Bench have reiterated support for a two-state solution and opposition to illegal settlement by the Israelis in the Palestinian territories? Can he confirm that there has been no progress whatsoever on either of those fronts in all the time that Ministers have been expressing those wishes and desires? Does he further agree that there is a diminishing prospect of any kind of two-state solution so long as the illegal Israeli occupation of parts of Palestinian territory continues?

[Lord Goldsmith of Richmond Park (Con)]

My Lords, the UK’s long-standing position on the Middle East peace process is clear and remains clear. We support a negotiated settlement leading to a safe and secure Israel living alongside a viable and sovereign Palestinian state, based on the 1967 borders, with equal land swaps to reflect the national security and religious interests of the Israeli and Palestinian peoples. That is our position and always has been our position.

Regarding the settlements, there too our position remains unchanged. We want to see a contiguous West Bank, including east Jerusalem, as part of a viable sovereign Palestinian state, based on those same 1967 lines. We recognise that many such settlements are contrary to international law.

European Political Community

Lord Grocott Excerpts

Monday 31st October 2022 Lords Chamber

[Lord Goldsmith of Richmond Park (Con)]

The noble Viscount makes an important point. That is true across all issues in all sectors. One of the most valuable organisations that I have been involved in is called GLOBE. It is about bringing legislators together from around the world to compare, and sometimes helpfully compete with one another in relation to, environmental legislation. That worked beautifully, and no doubt it works in every important sector.

[Lord Grocott (Lab)]

My Lords, is not the overwhelming evidence of anyone involved in public life that if something starts out with a small secretariat, it nearly always ends up being a big secretariat?

[Lord Goldsmith of Richmond Park (Con)]

My Lords, the participants, including the host country, are very clear that no new structures or institutions are to be created. That is absolutely not the purpose. There is a healthy scepticism towards the creation of such structures, precisely on the basis that they could end up duplicating the work of other such structures or even undermining it.

Water Companies: Borrowings

Lord Grocott Excerpts

Monday 5th September 2022 Lords Chamber

[Lord Goldsmith of Richmond Park (Con)]

We very much share the overwhelming view of the population of this country that more action needs to be taken to protect not just the health of our waters but the resilience of supply. This goes back to the question asked by my noble friend. But we do not believe that nationalisation is the answer: it would place an enormous financial burden on the taxpayer and would not deliver anything like the level of investment that we have seen in recent years.

[Lord Grocott (Lab)]

Will the Minister now respond specifically to the question put to him by my noble friend Lord Hain: why is the record in Wales so much better than the one in England?

Palestine: Recognition

Lord Grocott Excerpts

Wednesday 6th April 2022 Lords Chamber

[Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon (Con)]

My Lords, the basis of the criteria the noble Lord outlined is directly relevant. That is why, as I said in my original Answer, the United Kingdom will recognise a Palestinian state when it is conducive to ensuring lasting peace in the Middle East.

[Lord Grocott (Lab)]

Desirable as I think most of us agree it is to achieve a two-state solution, is it not a matter of obvious fact that such a solution is not possible so long as the illegal settlements remain?

[Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon (Con)]

My Lords, I believe I have already addressed that question. As I said, we believe—it is a long-standing position—that settlements are an obstacle to peace.

Kabul: Pen Farthing

Lord Grocott Excerpts

Wednesday 2nd February 2022 Lords Chamber

[Lord Grocott (Lab)]

My Lords, the Prime Minister has given his absolute assurance that he had nothing whatever to do with any of this. I just wonder how credible is the Prime Minister as a witness?

[Lord Goldsmith of Richmond Park (Con)]

In these frenzied days and this feeding frenzy, small things can be perceived as very large things. In the cold light of day, in the months to come, when people look back at this question that has been occupying nearly 10 minutes of this House’s time, we may wonder whether we lost a sense of proportion.

Russia: Sanctions

Lord Grocott Excerpts

Tuesday 1st February 2022 Lords Chamber

[Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon (Con)]

My Lords, I can certainly provide more details on the noble Lord’s second question. Yes, we are working with key allies, as I indicated, over the course of the last two months and beyond. We have been working with our key European allies and directly with the EU. We have been working with the United States, as well as partners further afield, on how we can act together on the situation in Ukraine. The noble Lord, Lord Collins, mentioned the importance of sanctions and working together in a co-ordinated fashion. I assure the House that we are doing exactly that. On the first question of the noble Lord, Lord Alton, I fear that if I was to say anything further it would run to speculation. But, as my right honourable friend the Foreign Secretary said yesterday in the House of Commons, whether our approach is diplomatic or looking at the issue of economics and the cost of Russia, everything is very much on the table.

[Lord Grocott (Lab)]

My Lords, further to the question of my noble friend Lord Campbell-Savours, can the Minister tell us, as and when the Prime Minister talks to President Putin—inevitably, the possibility of Ukraine joining NATO will be raised as a Russian concern—what precisely is the Government’s position on the possibility of Ukraine joining NATO?

[Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon (Con)]

My Lords, as the noble Lord knows, on the central point of Ukraine joining NATO, it is first and foremost a defensive alliance. A country can make an application and it is considered by all members of NATO. No country should be told specifically that it cannot be a member of a particular alliance; it is very much for Ukraine to request its membership and for members of NATO to decide.

Afghanistan (International Relations and Defence Committee Report)

Lord Grocott Excerpts

Monday 24th January 2022 Grand Committee

[Lord Grocott (Lab)]

My Lords, 6 January was the first anniversary of the publication of our report. Several other noble Lords have mentioned the problems associated with getting it debated—better late than never, I suppose. I was proud to a member of the committee. If I can say so as 1/12th of the committee, I think it is an excellent report and it stands the test of time. Although it was long ago, I must give special thanks to the secretariat—Eva George and her team—and the noble Baroness, Lady Anelay, for her chairmanship. She managed to do it all on Zoom, which to me is beyond human understanding.

On rereading the report, I particularly regret that we did not have a chance to debate it before the establishment of the Taliban regime. I am not going to exaggerate the significance of a single parliamentary report, but I think that many of the issues we raised were relevant prior to the Taliban takeover and remain relevant today. One year ago, no one reading our analysis could have been in any doubt whatever that the situation in the country was exceedingly grave. Although we did not predict the imminent collapse of the Government, we certainly identified their nearly insurmountable challenges. As we said in paragraph 1 of our summary:

“The Afghan state remains very fragile, with limited control of territory. The Taliban’s insurgency continues, and terrorist groups, including al-Qaeda and Islamic State Khorasan Province, operate in the country.”


We also pointed out that:

“The Afghan state is highly aid-dependent, and there are few prospects for domestic revenues to increase.”


Perhaps most tellingly of all, we said:

“The Afghan government’s accountability to its citizens is limited by its reliance on international military spending and aid. Government appointments are regarded as a source of spoils, and warlords and militia leaders retain roles inside the state.”


It was also obvious to our committee that, whatever resulted from the peace talks then taking place in Doha, our Government would have to address the fact that the Taliban would be involved in any settlement and we would have to decide at what level, and under what conditions, we should engage with them. We said:

“We conclude that the Government should be giving careful consideration to how, in the event of the Doha talks resulting in an agreement, it will handle its future relationship with the Taliban, which will necessarily be part of any power-sharing arrangement.”


We knew before it happened that the Taliban would be playing a crucial role in the future and that our Government would need to know how to engage with that.

While, as I say, we did not anticipate the imminent total Taliban takeover, it was obvious that the Taliban would be a major if not dominant force in any future Afghan Government. Indeed, anyone reading our report today would see there was a palpable sense of the overwhelming challenges of instability in the country and, despite the peace talks then ongoing, a strong sense of foreboding. That was implicit in our comments on the policy of the Trump Administration in reaching their one-sided agreement with the Taliban. It guaranteed US withdrawal without any reciprocal undertakings from the Taliban or any involvement in the talks by the then Afghan Government. It is impossible to resist the temptation to say of US policy at the time, in the light of subsequent events, “We told you so.”

Now we know that our foreboding was justified—the Taliban takeover is complete and took place in a stunningly short time—yet, for all the huge significance of the takeover, just a glimpse of the chapter headings of our report shows that the challenges facing Afghanistan today were there prior to the takeover, although of course hugely exacerbated by it. Our report listed the problems of poverty, hunger, Covid, human rights, corruption, refugees, drugs and terrorist groups.

On poverty in the country, we pointed out a year ago that Afghanistan was ranked 170th out of 189 countries in the 2019 Human Development Index. We also reported that Afghanistan depended on international aid for about 60% of its budget, that it was the most aid-dependent country in the world and that there were few prospects for domestic revenues to increase. In paragraph 237 we said, and this was prior to the takeover:

“The country faces a humanitarian crisis, with alarmingly high levels of food insecurity.”


So the basic problems of poverty were known well before the events in August.

It has to be said, in fairness, that in subsequent Statements and Answers to Questions the Minister has recognised the absolute priority of aid to those most in need in the country. He said in the House last week that the aid was getting through and there was good co-operation on the ground. However, since the Statements last week millions of people who will not necessarily be following these things will have seen the heart-rending, almost unwatchable reports by John Ray on ITN—this led the news on one day—about the desperation of so many people in Afghanistan, particularly the children, who as we speak are simply not getting enough to eat to keep them alive. So I really must ask the Minister: what are the obstacles to aid getting through to where it is needed most? How far short of the aid needed is actually being provided? What is being done to co-ordinate and accelerate the international effort?

We then have the allied problems of disease and hospital supplies, which were also highlighted by ITN, with children dying for lack of medicines. This issue is massively exacerbated by Covid. Last January, our report said that further humanitarian aid would be necessary specifically as a result of Covid. Again, I ask the Minister: where is the international commitment, and the UK’s in particular, on the supply of vaccines and essential drugs to hospitals that are so desperately in need?

So many of these issues have, inevitably, been mentioned before; the noble Lord, Lord Kerr, moaned about four of his foxes being shot but I feel as though all my foxes have been shot by speaking late. But on human rights, especially those of women and girls, our committee noted the improvements that had been made since the beginning of the UK’s involvement in 2001. For this, as with so much else, we salute the heroism and dedication of the military and all those British citizens who worked in Afghanistan with the aim of making life better for the Afghan people.

However, our report expressed concern about the extent to which these hard-won rights were being jeopardised in those parts of the country already under Taliban control. We found that there were substantial local variations, depending on individual Taliban commanders. I ask the Minister this: since the takeover in August, can he give any kind of overview of the human rights situation now that the Taliban has overall central control? Is it at all possible to say—this is perhaps a crude question to ask, but I would be interested to have an assessment—whether the Taliban today differs in any substantial way from the horrors of the Taliban of 20 years ago or is a reprise of that?

That brings me to the question which the noble Lord, Lord Kerr, mentioned and I merely repeat, about the engagement of the UK and our allies with those in control in Kabul. In December the Brookings Institution published a paper titled “It’s time for the West to engage with the Taliban”. The paper says:

“If we refuse to engage with the Taliban at any meaningful level … economic collapse and isolation risk provoking deeper instability, insecurity, and repression”.


On 15 December, the Minister for the Middle East, James Cleverly, said in a ministerial Statement:

“We have used our engagement with Taliban to press them to ensure a suitable environment for aid delivery, as well as to respond to international concerns on terrorism, the protection of human rights, especially the rights of women, girls and members of minorities”.


We have heard about the talks in Norway, but can the Minister update us on the level and frequency of that engagement? Can he also report on the success or otherwise of those contacts with the Taliban, especially on the catastrophic humanitarian issues?

I would also be interested in his reaction to a letter which some may have seen in the Guardian today—it was reported quite heavily. A number of our distinguished colleagues were signatories, including the noble Baroness, Lady Amos, the noble Lords, Lord Ricketts and Lord Sedwill, and the noble and gallant Lord, Lord Richards. They basically argued, among other things, for proper engagement with the Taliban. I would like the Minister’s reaction to this and, in particular, to the quote from the Norwegian foreign Minister, who said

“we must talk to the de facto authorities in the country. We cannot allow the political situation to lead to an even worse humanitarian disaster”.

I agree with every word in that letter and report. It would have saved me a lot of trouble if they had written it a couple of weeks ago, because it would have given me a lovely structure for my remarks. I would like to hear the Minister’s response.

I almost find myself summarising at this stage because it has been a very sombre, quite sad and regretful debate, with much more—this is true of my remarks as well as so many others—about the huge problems facing the country than practical ways of addressing and solving them in our much-reduced situation, but we must make the effort. In our report, we identified so many challenges facing Afghanistan. The same challenges remain but the situation is now far worse. The need is so great on so many fronts that it is sometimes difficult to focus and prioritise, but there surely can be no higher priority than the millions of children in Afghanistan whose lives are threatened because they simply do not have enough to eat. We need to address these problems, with that clearly as the first priority.

Afghanistan: Humanitarian Crisis

Lord Grocott Excerpts

Thursday 13th January 2022 Lords Chamber

[Lord Grocott (Lab)]

My Lords, we know that before the full takeover by the Taliban, there were many examples of co-operation between the Taliban locally and aid organisations, though it was very patchy in different parts of the country. Can the Minister tell us anything about the direction of travel on this post the Taliban takeover? Is it still patchy, or is there any evidence at all that those areas where the co-operation did not work successfully are learning from those where it does and benefits the people? How is this moving? Is it getting better or worse?

[Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon (Con)]

My Lords, as the noble Lord will be aware, there are various strands. The Taliban themselves are not a homogenous group, and there are various factions within the Taliban which control various parts of the country. However, promisingly, I was updated that with the commitments we have made and the support we have given to organisations, such as the World Food Programme, they have been able to distribute humanitarian aid and support not just to a selective number of regions but to most parts of the country. We are encouraged that there is good co-operation on the ground, but this could change very quickly, so we should we remain ever vigilant. I assure the noble Lord that I will continue to update your Lordships’ House accordingly.