House of Lords Reform (No. 2) Bill

Lord Grenfell Excerpts

Friday 28th March 2014 Lords Chamber

[Lord Grenfell (Lab)]

My Lords, I am sorry to miss out on that viscountcy, but a barony gets you quite far in Paris, anyway—at least these days it is not to the guillotine.

When I was studying modern languages at King’s, Cambridge, some 58 years ago, I struggled through the plays of a 19th-century Viennese dramatist and poet called Franz Grillparzer. That is not an exercise that I would recommend to any first-year undergraduate —it is pretty painful. Recently, I came across an English translation of his rather remarkable play “King Ottokar’s Fortune and End”, which is about the founding of the house of Habsburg. I quote the king:

“This is the curse upon our noble House, to strive half-heartedly by half measures, to bring about half of what must be done”.

This House’s attempts at reform have fared rather better than that, but one has to say that Grillparzer’s anguished words are not wholly inapplicable.

However, this Friday morning we have before us a Bill that is living proof that we have not given up, despite the frustrations and reverses that have punctuated our slow but visible progress towards a reformed House. This, as the noble Lord, Lord Steel, says, is a modest Bill which is limited in scope. However, it would not be before us at all but for the noble Lord’s persistence and skill, which has brought us to the point where the House of Commons could see the wisdom of incremental reforms as a means of keeping the momentum of progress alive. We are hugely in his debt and we are profoundly grateful also to Mr Dan Byles in the Commons for having picked up the torch and steered this Private Member’s Bill through its legislative stages in another place.

I pay warm tribute to two other noble Lords, around whom a body of opinion of Lords reform has coalesced into what I would call the sensible tendency. I speak of the noble Lords, Lord Cormack and Lord Norton of Louth, who founded some 12 years ago the all-party bicameral campaign for an effective second Chamber, a group at whose creation I was proud and privileged to be present. Under the guidance of these two noble Lords, the group has worked tirelessly to keep the debate on reform going along sensible and practical lines, scrutinising carefully the legislative efforts to reform this House and putting forward ideas that carry much weight in the continuing debate. The noble Lord, Lord Steel, has been a very active contributor to the work of this group, which in turn has eagerly supported his legislative initiatives.

As I said at the start, the Bill before us is a modest Bill, but it does take us forward and its Second Reading deserves our enthusiastic approval, following which this House should ensure its unqualified and unamended passage to the statute book. For me personally, its first clause—on resignation—is poignant, as it seeks to set in statute the scheme set out in the Companion to the Standing Orders, of which I am only the fourth to take advantage. I noticed in the Times that one of the four, Lord Hutchinson, is 99 today. On behalf of all of us, I send him warm birthday wishes. However, it has struck me as strange that we had to wait until the initiative of the noble Lord, Lord Hunt of Wirral, in 2011 to give Peers the right to retire permanently from the House. That right is now about to be enshrined in statute. If it results in a gradual reduction in the size of the House, it will be a convenience not just to Members wishing to retire, but to Parliament as a whole, on which the burden of an overpopulated second Chamber weighs ever more heavily. The right to retire will not of course reduce numbers to the level to which we must surely come over time. However, combined with the provisions of Clause 2, relating to non-attendance, it will take us slowly but surely in that direction.

Clause 3, relating to Members convicted of a serious offence, is eminently sensible, clearly drafted and just. I will comment no further on it. Clause 4, on the effect of ceasing to be a Member, clarifies what has hitherto been a rather confused and uncertain set of terms. The purpose of Clause 5, relating to the Lord Speaker’s certificate, is self-evident, but since we are mentioning the Lord Speaker’s role, might I slip in here a plea that the role of the Lord Speaker generally ought to be reviewed by this House? That is in fact overdue, since such a review after five years was called for in the legislation establishing the office of the Lord Speaker in 2005.

The need for a review happens to be one of the recommendations contained in a report to Labour Peers on the future of the House and its place in a wider constitution. A group of nine Labour Peers, which my noble friend Lady Taylor of Bolton and I had the honour to co-chair, has worked for over a year to produce a report enshrining 22 recommendations with full supporting arguments, which we presented to the whole body of Labour Peers this last Wednesday afternoon. It will shortly be available to the whole House.

I should begin by saying that none of the 22 recommendations flies in the face of provisions set out in the Bill before us today. To the contrary, our recommendations on retirement and non-attendance chime well with Clauses 1 and 2 of the Bill, although in each case we have gone further than the Bill down the same path. We have explored in detail how to reduce the size of the House, on the principle that size must follow function, and we have carefully addressed questions of membership and methods of appointment, with a strong recommendation that this House be a House of fully participating working Peers, while recognising that that does not necessarily imply a full-time job.

We have agreed a pretty comprehensive set of recommendations, but we have not included any recommendation regarding the big issue of whether the House should be an appointed House or a fully or largely elected body. That was not because we feared to enter that divisive debate but because a consensus would not have been possible, given the divisions of opinion in our group. More importantly, we feel that a reform of such magnitude and constitutional significance can be addressed only in the context of a reform of Parliament as a whole. Reforming the composition of the Lords is only one on a list of issues on the governance of the United Kingdom that need to be addressed in the next Parliament. We believe that such big issues will never be resolved without consensus being reached away from the political ferment. That is why we are recommending the establishment of a constitutional commission to report within two years of its inception in order to make legislation possible during the next Parliament. In the mean time, we want, as this Bill does, the House to continue to reform itself through long and short-term improvements, such as those that we set out in our report to Labour Peers. Some could be implemented quite quickly; others will require legislation. Some are radical, but all are viable.

Two adjectives sum up my personal view of Lords reform, which I dare to put before your Lordships as I take my leave of this House. Reform is better if incremental and it must be proportionate. There is much that this House can achieve if each improving reform builds on and is consistent with that preceding it. The reforms may sometimes appear to be piecemeal, but that is acceptable provided that the pieces fit into a well thought-out mosaic. If the House is certain of its role, the best methods of fulfilling that role can be devised and agreed only on that basis. The reforms must be proportionate to the needs; the pieces must fit into the mosaic. To my mind, the pieces composing this Bill do just that.

None the less, over the years I have formulated an opinion that politicians are not very sound on proportionality. There is a tendency to take too large a hammer to too small a nail and vice versa, perhaps because proportionality can have varying definitions. At the risk of sounding too light-hearted on such a weighty matter, may I illustrate the problem with a little anecdote? At the beginning of the 20th century, the famed writer of theatrical comedies, Tristan Bernard, was walking down a street in Paris when a removals man crossed his path coming out of a building. The man was carrying a grandfather clock on his shoulder, with which he managed to knock the distinguished playwright off his feet. Bernard hauled himself out of the gutter, brushed himself off and said to the man, “Why can’t you wear a watch like everyone else?”. That is proportionality. I hope that the reformers of the House will devise reforms to fit its functions, with reforms that are neither too grandiose nor too timid, but are right for the role that this House must play in the governance of the country, recognising always the primacy of the elected House.

With the indulgence of the House, may I seize this last opportunity to thank all noble Lords, on all sides of the House, for the immense pleasure of their company during the 18 years in which I have been privileged to serve here, first as a hereditary Peer and then as a life Peer, and as a regular attender and participant in our work? I have learnt enormously from noble Lords’ wisdom and have been flattered by their friendship. I also extend my warmest thanks to the whole staff of the House—that wonderfully helpful and kindly band of men and women, of every rank, who have made my life here as a Member so agreeable and so easy to live.

Many colleagues have asked what I am going to do next, as if a quiet retirement was something still properly hidden in the mists of the future. I recall what Archbishop Geoffrey Fisher had to say when he left Lambeth Palace:

“Who knows whether in retirement I shall be tempted to the last infirmity of a mundane mind, which is to write a book”.

I assume that he fell for that temptation, but I confess that I never read those particular fruits of his far from mundane mind, so I shall ponder on his words none the less. In the mean time, I shall follow my own personal credo, which is, “Live with your memories and not on them”. I shall have myriad pleasant memories to live with, thanks to your Lordships and to this great House.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Trefgarne (Con)]

My Lords, I will make only a modest contribution to this debate. As far as House of Lords reform generally is concerned, my view happens to be that we should move to a largely if not wholly elected Chamber. I accept that that is on the whole a minority view, certainly on this side of the House, but that is my view and long has been. I also believe that if we were to have such a Chamber it should have powers not dissimilar to those of the other place, and I can well see that there would be objections to that coming from there. Be that as it may, House of Lords reform generally is back on the agenda, it would seem.

As the noble Lord, Lord Grenfell, reminded us—and I share the dismay that he will be leaving us so soon—the Labour Party has apparently published a new policy on this matter. It comes from the pen of the noble Lord, Lord Grenfell, and his colleagues, I understand, but I presume that to be Labour Party policy, or the bones of Labour Party policy, when we get to the next election. I express one dismay about that: yet again the Labour Party seems to be disconnecting itself from the views and wishes of the people. A few weeks ago, Labour Peers assisted in the failure to pass the European Union (Referendum) Bill, which would have allowed the people to express a view on that matter. Now apparently they are proposing a Chamber of largely appointed Peers, which, again, does not seem to represent the essential Labour principles to which we had assumed they were attached.

[Lord Grenfell]

I am most grateful to the noble Lord but I should correct him on one point. This is a report from a group of Labour Peers to their fellow Peers; it does not mean that it is Labour Party policy. It is the views expressed by a group of Labour Peers of what we think might be, and would like to see as, Labour policy. The other point is that we are certainly not recommending an appointed House. We deliberately avoided trying to find an answer to the knotty question of whether there should be an elected or appointed House. That has to wait, in our view, for a constitutional commission.

[Lord Trefgarne]

I am grateful to the noble Lord for that clarification. I am particularly grateful because, referring to one sentence in the report—I assume this likewise to be in error—the Daily Telegraph says:

“All hereditary peerages would be abolished and no more should be created”.

Apparently that is not the view of the noble Lord’s committee and I am happy to hear it.

Turning to the Bill, I broadly support what is proposed. At one of the earlier stages—I forget which one—I referred to the problem of overseas convictions of Members of your Lordships’ House. That matter has been dealt with and I am grateful for that. Therefore, I, likewise, hope that the Bill will proceed to the statute book fairly swiftly.

Finally, I would like to refer to the remarks of the noble Lord, Lord Hunt of Wirral. I am so sorry he is not in his place. He described at some length his wish for some financial arrangements. I think he was saying that they should perhaps not come from public funds but from some other source. I am obliged to remind your Lordships that in 1999, 600 or so hereditary Peers left without so much as a penny. I say to my noble friend the Leader: if support for departing Peers is to come from public funds, I should be very much opposed to that, or if it is to happen it will have to be backdated to include the 600 or so hereditary Peers of 1999, which I dare say will create problems in the Treasury, even more than there are at present. But it would not be just to provide Peers who are allowed to depart now on a voluntary basis, or even on a compulsory basis, with financial recompense when in 1999 not so much as one penny was provided. Of course, I accept what the noble Lord, Lord Hunt, was proposing, which I think was a private fund of some sort, and that would be a different matter. But I hope that departing hereditary Peers from 1999 might likewise be considered for support from that measure.

I, too, share the hope that the Bill will shortly reach the statute book and will do nothing to prevent that happening.

European Union (Referendum) Bill

Lord Grenfell Excerpts

Friday 31st January 2014 Lords Chamber

[Lord Low of Dalston]

I am grateful to the noble Lord. That is very helpful. Thank you very much.

[Lord Grenfell (Lab)]

My Lords, I put my name to this amendment because I believe its purpose to be profoundly important. I do not have much to add to the very persuasive argument of the mover of the amendment, the noble Lord, Lord Turnbull. I merely wish to endorse a lot of what he said and hope that noble Lords will strongly support the amendment.

I am afraid that the amendment, while I support it, is open to two different interpretations. Therefore, I slightly take issue with the noble Lord, Lord Kerr, and stand somewhere between him and the noble Lord, Lord Foulkes, on this one. The amendment refers to,

“an assessment of the United Kingdom’s intended relationship with the European Union in the event of withdrawal”.

I am not sure that you can really make that assessment on purely normative lines. It has to be descriptive as well. If this amendment is addressed not just to Parliament but to the people, we are asking that the people be informed of the Government’s view of that future relationship. There has to be an element of the descriptive in that. That is the line that I have clung to in my support for this amendment.

The Prime Minister has said over and over again—and to the discomfort, to put it mildly, of a substantial number of his Back-Benchers—that he wishes the United Kingdom to stay in the European Union. However, what if the people in an “in or out” referendum beg to disagree with him? It is inconceivable to me that, with eventual withdrawal a possibility, the people should vote without the benefit of knowing in advance what kind of relationship he would wish the UK to have with the Union that it is leaving. I would have thought that to so inform the electorate was a simple matter of common sense, not to mention courtesy. In other words, does the Prime Minister have a plan B? If he does not, he must construct one and, having done so, the Secretary of State must publish it and lay it before Parliament before making any order under Clause 1(6). That is what the amendment would be calling for.

At the heart of this assessment, or plan B, would presumably be the end product that the Government seek to gain by negotiation—the best terms that they can obtain for access to the single market, to take but one example. Will the Prime Minister opt for the kind of relationship enjoyed by current members of the European Economic Area and EFTA? Will he take the relationships enjoyed by Norway and Switzerland as his model? I use the word “enjoyed” with some hesitancy, since EEA and EFTA members suffer taxation without representation, having to contribute to the EU’s budget without getting any money back, a reality of which the public ought to be made aware before voting. Or will he be aiming for some other kind of association? What kind of associate status would he judge appropriate for one of the largest economies in Europe and, indeed, the world? Whatever his intentions or preferences, in the case of withdrawal they need to be put on the table for all to see and discuss before the referendum is called.

We on this side of the House are not alone in calling for an eventual impact assessment of the actual effects of withdrawal on the British economy and on the rights of British individuals living both within and outside the UK, as well as on EU citizens living here—the noble Lord, Lord Turnbull, referred to that. That assessment could show that things would turn out to be disastrous if a Government who had taken the UK out of the EU had failed before doing so to formulate a proper vision of the intended relationship. That would be inviting our erstwhile partners to do our thinking for us. I strongly support this eminently reasonable and crucial amendment.

[Lord Shipley (LD)]

My Lords, my name, too, is attached to Amendments 50A and 72. I start with the principles established by the Electoral Commission. A week ago we discussed in detail what the Electoral Commission said about the question and its wording. The document produced on this referendum by the Electoral Commission said that, in a referendum, voters should be able to “understand the question”—we covered that last week—“and its implications”. That is what this amendment would address. The Electoral Commission said that voters should be,

“informed about the possible outcomes, and”,

should be able to,

“easily understand the campaign arguments”.

I agree with the noble Lord, Lord Kerr: we should not pass a defective Bill, without the amendment, because it makes it clear at this stage of the progress of the Bill that these specific words are important.

I conclude from this that there has to be a document published that explains the implications clearly. However, there cannot be a document unless it is clear what the intended relationship with the European Union is going to be in the event of withdrawal. Otherwise, there will be serious confusion in the minds of voters as to what the implications of a referendum, and their vote in that referendum, might be, whichever way they cast it.

I noted a moment ago the words of the Leader of the House in commenting on the role of my noble friend Lady Warsi, the Minister. He said that she could respond on behalf of the Government, from advice given by Foreign Office officials, on the implications of a referendum. I therefore hope that, when we hear from my noble friend Lady Warsi, we will hear the views on the implications of this referendum being held.

I hope that there will be clarity at that stage about whether the supporters of the Bill want to follow in the steps of Norway. Norway is often cited publicly as a parallel for the United Kingdom. Inside the European Economic Area it may be, but it has no direct power in the EU, it has no seat at the table and it cannot vote. However, it still has to abide by directives just as full members do. Indeed, Norway has to implement three-quarters of all EU legislation, including the working time directive. It has to implement other employment laws—consumer protection, environmental policy and competition—and has to contribute to EU budgets. Norway’s per capita contribution is just over £100; the UK’s net per capita contribution is £128. If we join the EEA, there will be little saving in practice for us.

Switzerland is often cited as another example that we might emulate, but it has no right of access to the single market and it has to negotiate each and every case separately. Even Switzerland contributes to EU budgets at £53 per capita. If we left the EU, it is possible that we could operate with a most-favoured-nation status, but that would mean that 90% of UK exports to the EU by value would face tariffs. If we were in the EEA, trade would be tariff free and, as with Norway, the four freedoms relating to the movement of goods, services, labour and capital would apply, along with the implementation of three-quarters of EU legislation over which, as I have explained, we would have no say.

Advocates of EEA membership should remember that goods entering the EU via an EEA country cannot do so without implementing the rules of origin, a regulatory process that takes time and money. Goods imported into the EU via a full member of the EU can move freely.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Kerr of Kinlochard]

My Lords, my name is on the amendment so ably moved by the noble Lord, Lord Shipley. I have very little to add to the arguments that he advanced. I pay tribute to the arguments advanced just now by the noble Baroness, Lady Falkner.

I want to pick up something that the noble Lord, Lord Bowness, said. The noble Lord is a very nice man. His suggestion about the motive for not following the precedent of the Scottish referendum and for past precedents being broken with was that this was just the quickest and simplest thing and that there was no policy intention. I am not a very nice man. I am not as nice as the noble Lord. I ask the “Cui bono?” question. Why should the sponsors of the Bill want to exclude the citizens of the European Union who have come here under the conditions set out in the treaty and who are living here, paying their taxes here, working here and possibly being officers on local councils here? Why should we want to deny them the vote? The only reason I can think of is that the sponsors of the Bill are not just seeking a referendum. In this case, as on the question and the timing, they are looking for a referendum that is likely to produce the answer, “Let’s get out”. I strongly support the amendment of the noble Lord, Lord Shipley.

[Lord Grenfell]

My Lords, I strongly support the amendment of the noble Lord, Lord Shipley. I declare what may be a tangential interest: I am entitled to vote in local elections in France.

I feel very strongly that people who are entitled to vote in local elections here as EU citizens should not be denied that right. My fear is that if we were to deny them this right, we would be reinforcing the image of a country that was on its way out of the EU. You could look at it the other way around, too: if we were to allow this amendment to go through, which I hope we will, then to my great pleasure we might be reinforcing the image of a country that was engaging properly with its European partners.

I think particularly of my French friends, who are living here in Britain. There are thousands of them living here—not all of them my friends—and maybe I will be destroying my own case here by saying: do not count on all of them to vote in an “in or out” referendum for Britain to stay in. Some of them may think that Britain is too much trouble to keep in the European Union. I venture to add that I think the vast majority, if given the vote, would want Britain to stay in, not just in their own personal interest but in the interests of Britain, France and the European Union.

[Lord Teverson (LD)]

My Lords, I shall be slightly contentious because I am not sure I completely agree with the argument put forward by my noble friend Lord Shipley. I feel strongly that Britain should remain within the European Union, unless it might be as the noble Lord, Lord Grenfell, just said and at some point in the future Britain becomes rather destructive to the European Union and we might come out. I do not know. I think we have to take this issue as a responsibility that British citizens take upon themselves to make up our mind what we are going to do. I do not know that the local government or national electoral rolls are the right ones. If I were given a logical choice, I would say it should be British citizens and perhaps I would add those with 10 years’ residence or less or something like that. It is very difficult to do in a list that has to be brought together and it would probably be impossible for residency. I do not know. However, I do not think the arguments are compelling one way on this. I think that if we come to a referendum, it is up to British citizens to make up their own mind and, if they want to commit suicide economically and in every other way, that is up to them.

Procedure of the House

Lord Grenfell Excerpts

Wednesday 24th April 2013 Lords Chamber

[Lord Elton]

My Lords, I always regard things which are commended because they work well in the House of Commons with a certain degree of suspicion. I urge your Lordships to do the same for a very good reason. The pressures that Back-Benchers cope with in the other place are quite different from the pressures that we are coping with here. They do not have tenure, but we do. Their tenure is dependent in part on the power of the Whips to deselect, so the positions of the two Houses in the competition with the Crown for power, which is what this is all about, are quite different. A Back-Bench committee with command of some time in the House of Commons is a very large step forward. A Back-Bench committee here, for the reasons which have just been very adequately voiced by the noble Earl, is a step backwards, and I hope we do not take it.

[Lord Grenfell]

My Lords, I would like to be very brief. I have just three small points; or rather, they are not small, but I will try to put them briefly. Before I do so, I should say that I found the argument of the noble Lord, Lord Butler of Brockwell, very strong and, certainly for me, very convincing.

First, I want to take up what the noble Earl, Lord Clancarty, just said, which was reflected by the noble Lord, Lord Elton, and a number of other noble Lords. It seems to suggest that a Back-Bench Committee would be devoid of all sympathy for the more esoteric topics that might need to be debated. I think it is rather insulting towards Back-Benchers to suggest that they might not be interested in topics which are rather unusual but personally important to the people proposing them.

The noble Lord the Leader of the House is wedded to the word “balloting”. I am very glad that the noble Lord, Lord Tyler, has once again said—as I have done before—that we should not be using the word ballot in relation to the present system. It is a lucky dip. If you want a ballot then you should be supporting a Back- Bench committee because such a democratically elected committee, working on democratic principles, would be deciding on what debates should take place by balloting within the committee. That is where you get the ballot. So let us not confuse balloting with lucky dips; that is the present system and I find it quite extraordinary.

Finally, I think the case the noble Lord the Leader of the House has made falls flat when we come to paragraph 14 in the report, when he says that all Back-Benchers must,

“have an equal chance of securing time to debate issues of concern to them, without having to secure the approval of their peers”.

Peer approval is one of the cornerstones of a self-regulating House and I strongly believe that there is a case for setting up a committee where democratically elected Back-Benchers can decide and make proposals as to what they think it is in the broad interests of the House as a whole to listen to when debate slots are available. I know we have a topical debate period but it is very important that a Back-Bench committee should be sensitive to both the more specialised issues that some would want to debate—and they would be taken into consideration—and also to the broader interests of the House. This is to make sure that highly important issues do not go by the board because a lucky dip has decided that they have no place in the debating Chamber.

[Lord Cormack]

My Lords, the noble Lord, Lord Grenfell, is right in what he says. We are only asking for a very modest proposal to be accepted by the House. We are asking for an experimental period of one parliamentary Session. We are not suggesting that, during that period, the present system should be completely abandoned. So the House will have the opportunity, as a self-regulating House, to look at the two systems working side by side.

In answer to my noble friend Lord Forsyth of Drumlean, of course there should be a form of election for this committee. I would favour the various groups— the Labour group, the Cross-Benchers, the Bishops—nominating members to sit on this committee. That would be a tidy and sensible way of doing it. The committee would then have the opportunity to listen to the proposals put to it.

It is nonsense that we have had grave international situations that have not been debated in this House. We had to wait ages for the Arab spring debate. My noble friend Lord Higgins talked about the euro crisis. If this House, to use the words of the noble Lord, Lord Filkin, is to be truly relevant to our nation and to its problems, it has to have the opportunity, in a timely and opportune manner, to debate the issues that are concerning people. Occasionally, these may be esoteric: I do not believe that a properly constituted Back-Bench committee would choose only grand international events to debate. Of course it should not, and I believe it would not. However, I do think we should give it a chance. We are a self-regulating House; let us regulate ourselves in this way in accordance with the recommendations of the Goodlad committee.

The greatest thing about this House, in my experience, is that it is collegiate in a way that the other place is not. We sit together on the Long Table and talk. We are not talking about debates that will end in votes. Let us discuss where we should focus our attention. Let us see how this group of colleagues works together. If at the end of the year the committee has not produced the goods, we will abandon the experiment. I do not believe that if you start an experiment you have to continue it in perpetuity; of course you do not. An experiment is an experiment, and I beg the House to give this one a chance.

European Council

Lord Grenfell Excerpts

Monday 26th November 2012 Lords Chamber

[Lord Strathclyde]

My Lords, it is always good to hear from the noble Lord, Lord Williamson, who brings to this House a good deal of experience and knowledge from having held such a senior position within the Commission. I agree that it is very difficult to comment decisively at this stage, as we do not have the normal conclusions that we would have at this time, and the negotiations are to continue. The noble Lord is also right to point out what happens if we end up with an annual budget, annual negotiations and annual rerating. I can confirm his understanding—I expect that that is his understanding because he was there when it was originally negotiated—that the UK rebate can be changed only if everyone agrees. In other words, I can confirm that it is subject to unanimity.

[Lord Grenfell]

My Lords, one question that has not been answered needs answering. Where are the Government’s red lines in the next negotiations? We do not know; perhaps the Government do not know. If at the next round in January, or whenever it is to be, no compromise can be found, or it is a compromise that does not match what the Government feel they can accept, what are the Government going to do? Will they veto the whole thing or what? We do not know—perhaps the noble Lord does not know—but let us at least get an idea of where those red lines might be.

[Lord Strathclyde]

My Lords, I do not think it is sensible to go into every negotiation with a public view of what your ultimate red line might be. We have been clear that what is needed is, at best, a cut—

[Lord Grenfell]

I am sorry, but on the Lisbon treaty we went into negotiations with red lines; they were very firmly laid out.

[Lord Strathclyde]

My Lords, if I may revert to a sad period in our history, that negotiation was subject to the agreement of the British people. As soon as the Labour Party won the election, it reneged on that arrangement. The noble Lord himself voted against giving the British people a choice. If they had had a choice, we may have ended up with something rather different.

Going back to the noble Lord’s original question, we feel that what is needed is, at best, a cut and, at worst, a real freeze to actual payment levels. Of course, we are still in negotiation. We will continue to have those negotiations until we start discussing it again. Noble Lords would not expect us to get into specific figures.

European Council

Lord Grenfell Excerpts

Monday 22nd October 2012 Lords Chamber

[Lord Strathclyde]

My Lords, that is a very seductive question. But it is really not possible for me or the British Government to give a view as to when we think that those negotiations and discussions will be completed. Apart from being extremely good at counting the number of words, the noble Lord probably has also read many reports in the press over the past few days about the view of other countries on the banking union, and he will understand just how difficult and complicated that is. However, we will continue to play a lead role in the development of common rules for the single market and encourage our colleagues to come to an agreement as quickly as possible.

[Lord Grenfell]

My Lords, one of the less kindly remarks that Winston Churchill made about Stanley Baldwin was that he was a man who occasionally stumbled upon the truth and that he then got up, dusted himself off and hurried on as if nothing had happened. I think that that is a charge that one could probably level against this Prime Minister when it comes to Europe. Will the Leader of the House tell us whether he honestly has not understood the degree of irritation among our partners at the way in which the United Kingdom is behaving within the councils of the European Union?

The Prime Minister told us in one breath, for example, that he is prepared to do a deal with Chancellor Merkel over the budget but immediately went on to say that it would not be an increase, which is not a deal. That is not a deal in the minds of the rest of our European partners. Chancellor Merkel has offered a reasonable compromise. I notice that he says in his Statement:

“I don't believe that German voters want that”—

meaning an increase—

“any more than British voters”.

If you read about the rapturous reception that Chancellor Merkel got yesterday from, of all people, the Christian Social Union Partners in Bavaria when she went back to report on the results of what she had done at the summit, one would have the impression that probably she had a large section of the German population behind her.

Does the Leader of the House really believe that if the Prime Minister’s so-called deal, which is not a deal, produces no increase, he is prepared to veto the budget? Does the Prime Minister also understand Angela Merkel when she says that if he does that she will call off the budget summit anyway? I do not think that the Prime Minister has many of the attributes of Samson but surely he must understand that if he is going to pull the whole structure down around him because he insists on absolutely no increase, none of his European partners will have a good word to say for him.

[Lord Strathclyde]

My Lords, the noble Lord, with all his experience and knowledge, asks whether I understand how irritated other members of the EU are at the Prime Minister’s stance. I understand how irritated the British people would be to see budgets for austerity in this country and profligacy in the EU. That, of course, is what is uppermost in the Prime Minister’s mind.

The Prime Minister and Chancellor Merkel have agreed to meet early in November. There are, of course, huge budgetary pressures throughout Europe, including in this country. Let them meet. The Prime Minister said what he has said, echoing the words that Chancellor Merkel agreed and signed in 2010. Actually, I think that increasing the EU budget in real terms is a very fair deal for the people of Europe, particularly given that Britain is the second largest contributor to the EU budget.

Queen’s Speech

Lord Grenfell Excerpts

Thursday 10th May 2012 Lords Chamber

[Lord Tyler]

My Lords, for the last 20 minutes or so, the noble Lord, Lord Hunt of Kings Heath, has been busily rewriting his 2008 White Paper, and some would say tearing it up. I thought that it was rather a good White Paper, but I do not propose to follow him down that route. The 11 hours of debate devoted to the reform of our House persuaded me not to concentrate excessively on that issue today. Indeed, I want to try to avoid yet more incestuous self-congratulatory introspection. Instead, I want to look at the wider context to which the gracious Speech rightly drew our attention, that of political disengagement, which is the context for all the proposals that have come forward.

I have been involved in party politics for more than 40 years, in common, I suspect, with many other Members of your Lordships’ House. Party politics has a place in binding together people of similar persuasions and allowing them to act in concert and to get things done. It is easy to malign political parties, but I would suggest that they are very necessary. Yet the ebb and flow of electoral fortunes, and the ability to throw the scoundrels out, are surely no longer sufficient to persuade people that our country is genuinely democratic, that it is a place where power is shared on an open and equal basis, and where citizens can influence the course of events by the strength of their vote and the power of their voice.

We should take some examples, notably the corrosive effect on public confidence of a series of scandals like “Cash for Access” and, before that, the “Loans for Lords”. The Government are again working to look at the issue of party funding, but to solve the problem, we need to be bold. It is all very well to search for consensus, but one day someone is simply going to have to take a decision. I trust that that will be done in this Session of Parliament, and I hope that it will form part of the other measures mentioned in the gracious Speech which are to be put before us. For my own part, the Kelly proposals to spend 50p per elector on removing the big donations from political parties should be a good starting point. Everybody understands that finding extra money for politics now has implications for public confidence, but surely it is urgent to look at the ways in which present funding is distributed so that we can avoid buying influence for the disproportionate sway of the few and instead buy equal influence for the many.

In the Queen’s Speech, as the Leader of the House has said, the Government have promised an electoral registration Bill. That may seem rather unimportant to many in your Lordships’ House, but in fact it is the bedrock of our democracy: those who are entitled to be on the register have a civic duty to be on it, and they need to be there. Since recent research by the Electoral Commission shows that we are failing to register nearly one in five people in this country—and disproportionately so in some inner city areas, of course—this is a very serious issue that demands the immediate attention of the Government. I am only sorry that the previous Government did not make more progress on it. In previous debates in this House we have heard of the potential risks associated with individual registration, but I think that we should consider this as a great opportunity to engage more people, particularly younger and more mobile people in inner cities. I strongly support the efforts of my noble friend Lord Rennard to ensure that registration—not voting, but registration—remains a civic duty backed by a financial penalty, as it always has been.

With that firm backstop, there are also opportunities to engage military service personnel in their barracks, students directly in their universities and other colleges, and 16 year-olds in school. That happens to have been the experience in Northern Ireland which has moved on most successfully to individual registration and where the legal requirement has been retained. Voter registration in school is an obvious corollary for the citizenship curriculum rightly introduced by the last Government. In Northern Ireland, it is a natural continuum and has been very successful.

However, there is still more to do to persuade people that their role in a democracy can make a difference. We live in a world where interaction across great geographical and social chasms is instant: students chat to their tutors online; consumers email chief executive officers and get a reply; and, crucially, people can see the value as an end in itself of open dialogue around the issues of the day. Across counties, countries and continents, people show that they are far from disinterested in policy and politics, but for all that technology, no citizen has been brought closer to Westminster, which remains a world apart. Individual politicians try to engage as best they can, but the system itself seems “sludgen” and inert to the public. Parliament is a paradox: manifestly, it is a seat of power and yet not obviously a place that appears to get things done.

Of course, there are no easy answers about how to strike the right balance between maintaining the principle of representative democracy—one person, one vote—and bringing the process of decision-making closer to where people now do their politics; if there were, they would have been produced many years ago. If political debate generates more oxygen on Facebook than at the ballot box, we have to do more than simply lament that fact; we have to work out how to persuade people that issues worth entering into a dialogue about—perhaps with a perfect stranger—are the same matters in which we in this Parliament are also engaged.

Liberals have always believed in the power, agency and freedom of individuals. Before our eyes, society has become more content to develop its own structures and conduct its own rules and proceedings, disengaged from the institutions of Parliament and party politics. Of course, at the same time, society is more sceptical—more frustrated—by the democratic apparatus prescribed for it by the state. These changes may fit our philosophical mould, but they are difficult to deal with outside the abstract. It is a challenge for all of us, the whole political system, in the coming years.

Of course, as we try to meet that challenge, we have the benefit of some direct, personal, overriding experience. When people know that their participation in a democracy makes a difference, they are more enthusiastic and more numerous. I hope your Lordships will forgive me a personal reflection. When I was first elected to the other place in 1974, my majority was just nine votes. The very perceptive electorate in Cornwall, on a very wild and wet February day, saw that the result might be close and so the turnout was 83%. In 2001, when I was defending a majority of over 13,000, the turnout collapsed to 63%. I am sure that many of your Lordships have similar personal reflections. There are similar stories in other countries too. The recent turnout in the second ballot of the French presidential election, over 80%, showed that people really felt that that election would make a difference and they could make a difference within that context.

The conundrum is in trying to maintain that interest and participation by maintaining the reality and perception that people can make a difference to what happens in their democracy. Reform of the party political financial situation and better, modern arrangements for the enfranchisement of potential voters are all important to that end, but we must also recognise that the present situation, when this half of Parliament is so very unrepresentative in terms of age, background and geographical experience, does nothing to persuade people that their political system is, or even can be, capable of listening to them.

We have heard much this week about “bread and butter” issues. What can a Chamber whose average age is 70 and where a clear majority of active Members come from London and the south-east know about the problems of working families in the north of Scotland or the west of Cornwall?

In the coming years, there will be changes that will be difficult for Parliament to accept. We should start with the modest changes to this House and its practices proposed by the group of the noble Lord, Lord Goodlad—I am disappointed that these have not been put before us as a package. We will have to do much, much more as we adapt to a world where people want to speak to us and see very quickly indeed that we are listening to them.

Let us make no mistake: economic crisis can reflect as well as magnify political dysfunction, when people feel that they have no capacity to influence or change decisions that affect them personally. In Greece, Italy and Spain, this very fact has caused desperate problems already, as we are witnessing again this week. In politics, as in economics, we must always be vigilant to make sure that we do not fall into the same trap. If we are out of touch as party politicians, as Members of your Lordships’ House and as a Parliament, we risk encountering that same dreadful fate—that the public simply wash their hands of us.

[Lord Grenfell]

Does the noble Lord not agree that the membership of this House is a great deal more representative of the many strands of society in the United Kingdom than is the House of Commons?

Draft House of Lords Reform Bill

Lord Grenfell Excerpts

Monday 30th April 2012 Lords Chamber

[Lord Grenfell]

My Lords, it is a pleasure to follow the noble Lord, Lord Cormack. The congruence of our views on Lords reform are long-standing and determined—and as a long-standing and determined opponent of an elected second Chamber, I have difficulty with many of the conclusions and recommendations in this report. However, that in no way diminishes my admiration for the extraordinary achievement of the Joint Committee and its chairman, my noble friend Lord Richard. The fruits of nine months’ hard work are impressive. As a piece of pre-legislative scrutiny, it fulfils the requirements of rigour, comprehensiveness, focus, careful argument and a clarity that contrasts starkly with the draft Bill and the White Paper into which it inquired. I would not be surprised if the two hefty volumes of oral and written evidence stand for a long time as the best repository of informed opinion on this hugely important constitutional issue.

The immediate conclusion that I draw from reading the report is that the draft Bill as a vehicle for reforming your Lordships' House is not fit for purpose. As the emergence of a well-reasoned alternative report confirms, the conclusions and the recommendations reached by a bare majority of the committee members reflect a glaring lack of consensus. In short, the draft Bill will just not do. It is obvious from the start, as many have pointed out, that it is fatally flawed. The absurdity of the assertions made in Clause 2 relating to the preservation of the primacy of the House of Commons undermines the very premise on which the drafters of this Bill sought to build their case for an all or partially elected Chamber.

To me, the logic is that, in the face of this total lack of consensus on how to proceed, we should not proceed on the basis of the draft Bill, the White Paper or the recommendations of the report before us. Has not the Prime Minister told us more than once that reform of this House must be achieved by consensus? Or has he changed his mind? Am I naive in suggesting that the Government’s threat to use the Parliament Act makes an utter nonsense of his call to reform by consensus? Or—as the noble Lord the Leader of the House intimated earlier—does he intend to exclude the opinion of your Lordships' House from such a consensus? To my mind, that would be outrageous. That said, I could scarcely blame the Prime Minister if he has changed his mind, since it must now be blindingly obvious even to him that consensus is unreachable on any reform remotely resembling that so dear to the heart of his Deputy Prime Minister. He has only to listen to a substantial bloc of his own Commons Back-Benchers to recognise that.

In preparing a necessarily short speech I had difficulty in deciding on which of the report’s many arguments, conclusions, options and recommendations I might focus. So, mindful that there are more debates to come in the new Session, I decided to focus on the overall message that I received from a first reading of this report. I recognise that others will have received a different message, but the message to me is that if the coalition is still hell-bent on abolishing this House and replacing it with an all or partially elected Senate, it will have to go back to the drawing board.

But not just any drawing board. Because the Joint Committee, by its mandate, was restricted to the examination of those subjects covered by the draft Bill and the White Paper, it had insufficient scope for the kind of broad consideration of the functions and powers of both Houses, without which the contribution of a reform of the Lords to the enhancement of government simply cannot be devised. The authors of the alternative report state that while they agree with the findings of the Joint Committee's report as a whole, the content and constitutional significance of the draft Bill needs consideration in a much broader context. That, they claim, is best achieved through a constitutional convention, which would consider the next steps on further Lords reform and any consequential impact on the Commons and on Parliament as a whole. That surely is the right way to go, and I warmly support it.

Of course defenders of the draft Bill, or of a hastily amended version of it, will cry, “Delaying tactics!”. So be it. The Government have had their chance and have blown it with this deeply flawed draft Bill. They now have no right to impede the efforts of those committed to finding, through a truly fit-for-purpose mechanism, a more comprehensive and workable solution.

I end with three short points. First, I deplore the petty-mindedness of the Government in their attitude to the Bill brought forward by the noble Lord, Lord Steel of Aikwood. They cry, “There is really nothing in it”, as if it was not on the Conservative Benches here that the evisceration of the Bill was plotted. How cynical can you get? I hope that rumours that there may be some second thinking on that are well-founded.

My penultimate point: whatever the method used in a further attempt at consensus—through a constitutional convention, as I would plead; or without one, which I would strongly warn against—the resulting agreement, if any, must, imperatively, be put to the people for approval through a referendum. It is far too significant a constitutional matter to be decided otherwise. Let me be blunt about this. The Government are opposing a referendum for short-term political advantage, not for the long-term betterment of government, which is what the people deserve and on which their voice should be heard.

My third and final point: how on earth could the coalition Government get the ordering of their priorities so wrong? Is it not absurd that the Prime Minister should bow to his deputy's insistence that Parliament invite upon itself a lengthy and acrimonious period of legislation on an issue that strikes no chord with a public who are rightly demanding that the Government and Parliament focus urgently on the double-dip recession, on unemployment, on housing, on schools, on health, on welfare, on pensions, on the Scottish question and a host of other life-changing concerns? It is our duty to make the Government think again.

Arrangement of Business

Lord Grenfell Excerpts

Thursday 26th April 2012 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Gould of Potternewton]

I ask the Leader of the House what seems to me a very simple question. We have been told that we are going to prorogue, presumably, in the morning—that is why we cannot continue the debate. Why cannot we prorogue in the afternoon? I just do not understand the argument, because we have not had a reason why it cannot be later in the day.

[Lord Grenfell]

My Lords, the noble Lord may recall his history of the other place in Edwardian times, when Arthur Balfour, who was rather used to making long and fanciful statements, was ejected from the prime ministership and went into opposition. He may recall the occasion on which Sir Henry Campbell-Bannerman, who had just become Prime Minister, said that Balfour tried to dazzle the House with his verbal gymnastics and studied eloquence. Henry Campbell-Bannerman dismissed him with the following two sentences:

“I say, enough of this foolery! It might have answered very well in the last Parliament, but it is altogether out of place in this”.—[Official Report, Commons, 12/3/1906; col. 992.]

I appeal to the noble Lord the Leader of the House to recognise that the specific report to be debated is one of such significance. A report of this importance rarely comes before the House. It is an insult to the people who worked for three months to produce the report on such a significant issue to have it debated right into the early hours of the morning. I fear—this may be what the Leader of the House has in mind—that a number of people will strike their names from the list because they will not be able to stay that late. That is a way of muzzling the House which is quite unacceptable.

[Lord Strathclyde]

My Lords, I suggested a moment ago that we have a means of discussing these issues through the usual channels. I think that that is the most appropriate way. I was struck by something that the noble Baroness, Lady Symons, said. She said that Peers should be able to speak and make pithy and effective speeches. I quite agree. Sometimes during the course of the past half hour, I have felt that I was suggesting the slaughter of the innocents. If there really were so many speakers down for Monday, of course we would have given it two days a long time ago. No noble Lord has explained why we cannot have a debate on Monday with 63 speakers; we have done it many times. However, I am happy to discuss this with the usual channels, and when we have a clearer idea of when the Sunday trading Bill will complete its passage through Parliament, we will be able to make an announcement on Prorogation.

Liaison Committee: Third Report

Lord Grenfell Excerpts

Monday 26th March 2012 Lords Chamber

[Lord Alderdice]

My Lords, I think it might be useful to hear from these Benches and from another side of the argument. One of the essences of science is the requirement to look at all the different arguments. The Liaison Committee has had to look at a number of difficult problems, and as a member of that committee, it is important for me to bring them to your Lordships’ attention.

The first point is that we do not have sufficient resources, financially or otherwise, to service all the areas that Members quite properly wish to address. That is a fact. On the island where I spend as much time as I can, when I look across the border I see that people have had their pensions and salaries reduced by about 10 per cent overall. We have escaped that on this side of the water, but we have not completely escaped the need to address the problem of austerity. We simply do not have the money to devote to all the things we would like to do.

The second point is that we have substantially increased the number of Members of your Lordships’ House. Those Members are bringing with them considerable expertise. In some areas they may even be bringing more up-to-date expertise than that of those who have been here for some time, so they should not be undervalued. In that context, we need to find a way to move forward. It is absolutely right that we should dwell on our reputation from the past, but it is equally important to continue to develop and to move forward, otherwise we will simply become stuck.

One crucial area of development is that of information and communications technology. We have a Communications Committee; it is neither a Select Committee nor a sessional committee, but in effect a kind of ad hoc committee on communications. It is quite clear that over the past year or two, that committee’s understanding of its remit has developed. It now looks not just at questions of the content of communication and broadcast, but at the technology of broadband and digital communication. Whenever, as a member of the committee, I asked whether there had been some kind of formal communication between it and the Science and Technology Committee about this, I was told that there had not. That was a failing on the part of both committees. If the Science and Technology Committee was not consulting with the Communications Committee, and if that committee was not making requests to consult with the Science and Technology Committee, both of them were failing to look to the future. I have to say that science and technology is also social science and social technology, and we have had only a very modest amount of research in those areas by the Science and Technology Committee. There was a recent rather good report on behaviour change, but the overall amount has been very modest.

It is not enough for us simply to say, “We want to keep what we have and we want more”, because we do not have the resources and we do have new people with their thoughts and ideas. It is therefore not enough simply to say, when it comes to the European Committee, “We have got seven sub-committees, but we want eight, with one on foreign affairs”. We do not have the money for that.

So, what do we do? The proposal is to continue with the Communications Committee, and a specific proposal that I myself put to the Liaison Committee was that we should ask it to consult with the Science and Technology Committee over the coming year so that areas of overlap can be accommodated in the work of the Communications Committee, and indeed that its name should be changed to exemplify the fact that there is a science and technology component to its work. It is not a matter of shutting down but of opening up and of further understanding. Here is an area of science and technology that is extremely relevant. When you go out on the streets, you can see that young people are more aware in their daily lives of the communications aspects of science and technology than of any other. Again, it is not a matter of closing down but of developing.

There is absolutely no reason why some of the ad hoc committees, which will be relatively short term, should not pick up on issues of science, technology and medicine. Nothing should restrict them just because they are ad hoc committees. Indeed, in pre- and post-legislative scrutiny, there is no reason why some things that they pick up should be in these areas.

I appeal to noble Lords to understand the dilemma of a Liaison Committee, acting on behalf of the House and with modest resources, that has to deal with a substantial increase in the number of Members, an ever increasing amount of material that we could reasonably, legitimately, profitably—and in a way that enhances the reputation of the House—consider, but that also has to address the reality of the boundaries and limits imposed on us. I trust that however we choose to vote, the conversation will continue so that we continue to do the best we can for the House while addressing all the pressures that are on the Liaison Committee and the other committees that have to take responsibility.

[Lord Grenfell]

I am most grateful to noble Lords. I begin by declaring an interest, in particular with reference to recommendation 46 about the reduction in the European Union sub-committee structure by one sub-committee. In 2003, when I had the honour of being chairman of the European Union Committee, I argued very strongly for an extra committee and we obtained one. It was not done lightly. It was done because the volume of draft legislation coming from the European Union was enormous and we did not feel that we were able to cover, in particular, draft directives and other documents in the area of social affairs and education. We therefore asked for the extra committee and we got it.

It seems strange that we are arguing for a reduction in the capacity of the European Union committee structure at a time when national parliaments are being asked—in fact, pressed—by the European Union to take a much more significant role and to be a much more substantial part of the structure of the European Union. This is, therefore, not a good time for us to think about reducing our capacity to meet that very considerable challenge. The noble Lord, Lord Roper, in his excellent letter, in appendix 2 of the report and in his very good statement this afternoon, set out the scale of the burden now borne by the European Union Committee. I am rather disappointed that an amendment on that subject has not been tabled to the Motion.

The noble Lord, Lord Alderdice, said again and again that it was a fact that there were not sufficient resources. One might ask why there are not sufficient resources. That seems to me the nub of the question: what are the causes of the financial constraint? One of them—there are several—and maybe one of the biggest, is the unnecessary inflation of the membership of the House. That is to a very large extent a direct cause of the financial problem.

When we consider the additional cost of a new unit of committee activity—who on earth invented that frightful description of our work?—we are told that the additional marginal cost will be in the region of £225,000. That frightens me. Will the abolition of one of our European Union sub-committees save £225,000? If it does, it will save the equivalent of what seven Members of the House of Lords receive in expenses during the course of a year. There is not much chance at the moment of the number of Peers and the membership of the House being reduced by seven. It is going up all the time by several factors of that. This shows how strangely we approach this question of resources. Having seven fewer Members claiming up to £30,000 a year in legitimate expenses and attendance allowance would pay for the European Union sub-committee and, happily, the sub-committee of the Science and Technology Committee. I was deeply moved and impressed by what the noble Lord, Lord Krebs, and his fellow scientists said about that.

Could we not try to be realistic about this and see it in the proper context of resources? If we had a smaller House, we would have more resources. It stands to reason that if we reduce the number of Members of the House, we will reduce the amount that the Exchequer has to put out to pay to keep them here. Why do we always say that there are no resources yet do not address the question of why? The size of the House is a major contributor to that unfortunate situation.

The House has a worldwide reputation of being one of the most cost-effective second Chambers in the world. Within that, it has a reputation of being probably the best scrutiny Chamber in the world. From my own experience, I can certainly tell noble Lords that in the European Union we have consistently been considered—run close by the French Senate—the most effective Chamber scrutinising draft European legislation. Do we want to lose that capacity? No, we do not, so let us look at ways of keeping it. I beg noble Lords to strongly consider why we are short of resources, to address that issue and not to undermine the huge reputation of the House.

[Lord Walton of Detchant]

My Lords, I shall speak briefly. I have read the report of the Liaison Committee with great care. I think that it was carefully argued. I fully appreciate why, in times of financial constraint, it made the proposals that it did. However, we as a country depend on increasing our income and overcoming our deficit. There can be no question, in my opinion, that the development of science, education and technology will play a vital role in helping us to recover from the deficit state in which we find ourselves. Unfortunately, we are slow to take account of, develop and extend the results of scientific discovery—a problem that we have faced over many years.

We live now in an era of evidence-based and translational medicine—meaning the ability to convert the results of basic science into developments in patient care and new methods of treatment of disease. It is crucial that the results of research in basic science, engineering and technology should do the same. Happily, the Government have put more money into scientific research. The Technology Strategy Board is making a major impact, and so, too, are a huge number of other important developments—but they need development and they need support.

I have been in the House for 23 years. For 15 of those years, I served as a member of your Lordships’ Committee on Science and Technology. I chaired an inquiry some years ago into research in the National Health Service. That was a privilege. The report of that sub-committee inquiry led to the Culyer report and then the Cooksey report, and ultimately to the introduction of the NHS research programme—and now the highly effective National Institute for Health Research.

I worked on a small inquiry of the sub-committee which, curiously, in a limited field, dealt with the medicinal uses of cannabis and led eventually to the development of a standardised product of cannabis leaf that is now being sold across the world—used for absorption through the mucus membrane of the mouth—and that brings in money from across the world because of its effect in the treatment of multiple sclerosis. I could quote a lot of other inquiries that have been crucial: not least, for instance, the committee I chaired into complementary and alternative medicine, to try to bring a rational basis to the study of this particular area, in which a large amount of money is spent by very many people in this country. That report was taken on board by the National Institutes of Health in the United States as the basis for a programme of research on which it embarked, and into which it put money, to try to get an evidence base for that field of complementary medicine. I could quote many other examples—and many other examples have been quoted today.

The reason I support the amendment tabled by my noble friend Lord Krebs is that the reports of the Science and Technology Committee in this House have not only had a major influence on government policy across the entire scientific field but have won the respect of Britain’s scientific community. Above all, they have won the respect of the international scientific community. As the noble Lord, Lord Jenkin, said, the report on science and society was widely commended in the United States media. I could quote a huge number of other reports from the committee that have had a similar effect.

It is absolutely crucial that the committee should continue to function in its present capacity. My noble friend Lord Krebs said, in his carefully argued and detailed letter in annexe 3 to the third report from the Liaison Committee, proposed,

“wider involvement of members in the committee activity of the House whilst preserving the advantages of a sessional committee”.

He proposed a number of methods for co-opting members to each of the sub-committees and made it clear that he could continue with the two sub-committees of the science committee with co-opted members, increasing the involvement of other Members of the House.

It would be a sad day if that committee, which has fulfilled such a vital role in Britain’s science community, and which has received such outstanding credit from across the world, were to lose one of its sub-committees at a time when Britain needs much more development in science, engineering and technology. For that reason, I strongly support my noble friend Lord Krebs.

Procedure of the House (Proposal 1)

Lord Grenfell Excerpts

Tuesday 8th November 2011 Lords Chamber

[Lord Lloyd of Berwick]

We considered this question at very great length when we had the Select Committee on the Speakership of the House six years ago. My view then was, and still is, that intervention at Question Time is a job for the Leader of the House as leader of the whole House and not as a member of the Government. If the Leader is not present, then it would be a job for the Deputy Leader of the House as deputy leader of the whole House. It was never my view that it was a job for the government Front Bench and therefore I do not understand the terms of Proposal 1, which refers to the job being,

“currently performed by the Leader of the House or Government front bench”.

That is not the job that we conferred on the Leader of the House six years ago. To insert “Government front bench” at that point in the proposal seems either to beg the question or, at any rate, to muddy the waters.

The question for the House is quite simply this: have the present Leader of the House and his predecessors on this side of the House impartially performed the function that they were then given during the past six years? I believe that they have. My only criticism, if I may say so, of the present Leader of the House is that when everybody is shouting together to get in, he does not intervene quickly enough. It is very important that he should intervene as quickly as he can when that situation arises. If in future he does intervene quickly, I see no possible advantage in transferring the job from the Leader of the whole House to the Speaker and I see many disadvantages, some of which have already been mentioned by the noble Lord, Lord Wakeham. Inevitably it will, in the end, lead to a loss of self-regulation.

[Lord Grenfell]

My Lords, I am not particularly happy with this proposal and never have been. My views have been somewhat confirmed by what the noble and learned Lord, Lord Lloyd of Berwick, has just said. However, I wish to take up the point made by the noble Lord, Lord Geddes, who has several times in recent times referred to the “slippery slope”. I simply do not buy this argument about the slippery slope for the following reason: in a properly self-regulated House, the House does not need to go anywhere it does not want to go. It has the power to say, “This far and no further”. Whatever changes might be made, they do not automatically mean that we are living in fear of a slide down a slippery slope because they can always be stopped.

My second point is that I am not very keen on trial periods. The trouble with a trial period is that the determination of whether that trial period has yielded positive or negative results is very difficult to judge and can be extremely contentious because we do not have clear criteria about how we judge whether they have been positive or negative. Making that determination could simply cause more problems for the House.

On the whole, I feel that the House works well enough with the system it has, provided, as the noble and learned Lord said, the Leader of the House and others on Front Benches take the responsibility necessary to make it work. If they do not, then you are inviting a tsunami of requests for some sort of reform which would probably in the end destroy the self-regulation of the House.

[Baroness Boothroyd]

My Lords, I intend to support the proposal before us this afternoon. I am in a great minority of one in believing that this House is self-regulating. I have not found that to be so. I have found it alien to me that a member of a political party who sits on the government Front Bench, whichever party may be in power, as a Minister of the Crown intervenes, interferes and determines which group in this House should be next to put the question. That is not a decision for a Minister of the Crown—a political animal, if I may put it like that—to take. To me that is for the judgment of an independent body, and that is the Lord Speaker, in whom we all have confidence. We would abide by the decisions of that Lord Speaker. I would therefore like to see this for a trial period, and I favour the proposition that is before us this afternoon.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Campbell-Savours]

The noble Lord opposite says, “Rubbish!”, but some of us, including the noble Baroness, Lady Boothroyd, watch what is happening on the government Front Bench during Question Time. The noble Baroness, Lady Anelay, very effectively seeks to have some influence on what is going on in the Chamber and often talks among her colleagues on the Front Bench as to who should be called. We are pointed to by Ministers on the government Front Bench, almost inviting us or identifying us to intervene during the course of the debate.

[Lord Grenfell]

This may be a hypothetical question, but it comes to my mind. When the noble Lord says that it should not be in the gift of the Leader of the House because of the political implications, would we now be granting those powers to the Woolsack if we still had a Lord Chancellor—because he was a political figure, too?

[Lord Campbell-Savours]

We do not have a Lord Chancellor; we now have an independent Lord Speaker. I am arguing that we should take that role away from the political and give it to the independent Chair of our proceedings, thereby enabling early intervention in a House which, during Question Time, is often unruly, and which has led to public criticism when people see adults on television standing screaming, shouting and bawling at each other across the Floor of the House. Anyone in this House who can claim that that is a dignified spectacle misunderstands what is expected of this House.