Deregulation Bill
Lord Grantchester Excerpts(10 years, 8 months ago)
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Lord Grantchester
Lord Grantchester (Lab)
My Lords, the relevant clause before us amends Part 3 of the Clean Air Act 1993; these provisions relate to smoke control areas. The Act requires the Secretary of State to publish lists of authorised fuels and exempted fireplaces that can be used in smoke control areas. Currently, this is done through regulations that are updated every six months. Clause 16 removes the need to issue regulations, replacing them with online lists to be published by the Secretary of State, which will be revised,
“as soon as is reasonably practicable after any change is made”.
The Secretary of State must keep an up-to-date and easily accessible authorised list on the gov.uk website.
This is a probing amendment. Will the Minister confirm that the criteria for selecting which fuels are considered safe and clean enough to be used will not change? If the clause is designed purely to speed up this process, it is one that we would thereby support. It should not be meant to change the terms or processes for the selection of fuels. It is important that it is made absolutely clear to people that this provision is about speeding things up, as opposed to making any back-door changes to which fuels could be used. I beg to move.
Lord De Mauley
My Lords, the Clean Air Act, which was first introduced to combat the smogs of the 1950s, designates smoke control areas within which it is an offence to emit smoke unless using authorised fuels and/or exempted appliances. Clause 16 amends the procedure by which the Secretary of State specifies authorised fuels and exempted fireplaces. They are currently specified by way of six-monthly statutory instruments, as the noble Lord explained. The clause will enable the Secretary of State to specify the products by publication of a list on the Defra smoke control web pages instead. The list will be published on a monthly basis and therefore reduce the delay that businesses and consumers currently face when new products are brought on to the market. The Act provides local authorities with powers to designate smoke control areas, within which it is an offence if smoke is emitted from a building’s chimney unless an authorised fuel or exempt appliance is being used. It is also an offence under the Act to acquire or sell an unauthorised fuel for use in a smoke control area.
The Secretary of State currently has the power under the Clean Air Act 1993 to exempt fireplaces by order and to authorise fuels by regulations, if she is satisfied that such products can be used without producing any smoke or a substantial quantity of smoke. Following assessment by technical experts to ensure compliance with eligibility criteria, the authorised fuels and exempt appliances are specified in statutory instruments which are made every six months. Under the current system, manufacturers face a delay of up to eight months between that assessment and bringing new fuels and fireplaces on to the market because they have to wait for that legislation to be made.
In answer to the noble Lord’s question, I confirm that the amendment made by this clause will not change the technical standards that products have to meet to be specified. Applicants will still be required to prove via testing that their products are capable of being used without producing any—or any substantial—quantity of smoke, thus keeping the inherent safeguards for air quality. The technical experts who currently provide advice with regard to the statutory instruments will continue to assess test results and provide recommendations to government with regard to the suitability of products for use in smoke control areas.
The details of specified products in the legislation are highly technical. The authorised fuel schedules are defined in technical terms covering matters such as the composition of the fuels, the manufacturing process, the shape of the fuels and their weight and sulphur content. Similarly, the exempted fireplaces schedules contain highly technical conditions of exemption relating to how individual fireplaces should be used and what fuels should be used in them to qualify for exemption.
It is worth noting that my department is not aware of the smoke control statutory instruments, which have been issued since 1957 and biannually since 1970, having been debated in Parliament on any occasion. The lists published on the internet will be subject to defined and robust audit procedures to ensure the accuracy of the data entered. These will include checks being undertaken and the lists being signed off by senior, responsible Defra staff. The process will enable specified product lists to be updated on a monthly basis.
In addition to including the same level of detail as the statutory instruments, the lists of specified products on the internet will also indicate the dates of new product specifications and of any variations or withdrawals. This is an improvement on the current system, where it would be necessary to compare lengthy SIs for consumers and local authorities to identify any changes. Therefore, there is an element of safeguarding for consumers as it will ensure that there is legal certainty with respect to which products may or may not be used at any given time. Members of the public without access to the internet will be able to request paper copies of the lists from my department.
The Delegated Powers and Regulatory Reform Committee initially expressed concern over the move from a legislative to an administrative process. However, I understand that it now finds the explanation provided by the Government with regard to the procedures for specifying products and the levels of control that will be in place sufficiently compelling in favour of the amendment—that is, the amendment made by the clause rather than the noble Lord’s amendment. It has, however, requested assurance that adequate steps will be taken to ensure that persons who have been lawfully using specified products do not end up inadvertently committing offences as a result of specifications being withdrawn. The Government would not want to create a situation in which people could inadvertently end up being in breach of the law.
A decision to withdraw an approval may take place only if evidence demonstrating that a product is not eligible for use in a smoke control area comes to light. Defra has advised that it is not aware of any specified products ever having been removed from the lists previously. Based on this information, while it is possible that a specified product may need to be withdrawn, it would be highly unusual. Given what I have said, I hope that the noble Lord will agree to withdraw his amendment.
Lord De Mauley
My Lords, the answer to that is that the inclusion in the published list will be information that the public need. They certainly can contact my department. Ultimately, it would remain subject to judicial review if it ever needed to come to that. The information will be public. All that will happen is that we will streamline the process so as not to clog up my noble friend’s committee.
Lord Grantchester
My Lords, I am grateful to the Minister for giving me those assurances and for his comprehensive assessment of the clauses in the Bill. I am very pleased that, from his assurances, the technical standards will continue to be monitored. On this occasion, I am happy to comply with the pleadings of the noble Lord, Lord Skelmersdale, and beg leave to withdraw the amendment.
Lord Grantchester
“Rights of way: annual report
The Secretary of State must prepare and publish an annual report on— (a) the implementation of the changes introduced by sections 21 to 27; and(b) the effectiveness of the changes introduced by sections 21 to 27,and must lay a copy of the report before both Houses of Parliament.”
Lord Grantchester
My Lords, public right-of-way legislation is complex, often archaic and certainly plentiful. Looking around the Committee today, I notice that there may well be previous Ministers of Agriculture in the Room who put some of this legislation through. It all builds into an important picture that needs some clarity, and I am very pleased that certain aspects of this are in this Deregulation Bill. They cover important aspects of the Wildlife and Countryside Act 1981, the Highways Act 1980 and the Countryside and Rights of Way Act 2000, building on the National Parks and Access to the Countryside Act 1949.
I declare my interest from the register as an owner of farmland in Cheshire over which there are a number of footpaths. These are not controversial; they are intermittently walked and do not cause disruption to farming operations. However, across the country the situation is considerably less clear. Under the 1949 Act, local authorities are required to produce a definitive map and statement of public rights of way. This is taking some time and continues, such that in the Countryside and Rights of Way Act 2000 a cut-off date of 2026 was introduced, after which routes pre-existing 1949 cannot be added to the definitive map.
Not only is the process of registration slow and complex, certain elements of the legislation have yet to be implemented and are considered to be flawed. In 2008 a stakeholder working group was set up by Natural England with membership drawn up from public access user groups and land management and business interests, including farming, and the local authorities. In 2010 it produced the Stepping Forward report, which proposed the changes that we are discussing today around the procedures introduced in the various legislation.
The stakeholder working group is to be commended on finding and building consensus around the main interested parties to recommend these changes as a package, to streamline the process and to make quicker progress, even though there may appear to be plenty of time until 2026. Some of the recommendations will no doubt help farmers to manage access safely, others will help to bring clarity to user groups and a large number will aid local authorities in bringing forward proposals to reduce confrontation and red tape. The approach from these Benches is to retain this consensus and build on it. The stakeholder working group is still continuing and, with these proposals agreed and implemented through the Bill, it can press forward in addressing further problems and bring these forward as quickly as possible.
Meanwhile, there is the task of following up on these proposals. The amendment before the Committee today is to do just this and annually publish a report on how effective this process has now become, how much quicker applications have become to deal with and any unforeseen issues that have arisen. The whole of Schedule 7 defines the new speedier and more streamlined process, but will it find snags? For example, paragraphs 4 to 6 of the schedule change the procedure for initiating action in the magistrate’s court. That procedure has charges applied to it, and these charges for initiating court action have increased substantially. Will this become a deterrent to the effective working of this provision?
Clause 26 opens the way for full cost recovery from a landowner seeking an order. The effect will need to be carefully monitored. Clause 24 revisits the CROW Act 2000 to correct those perceived flaws. It is important that the impact of this so-called right to apply for orders, both on local authority workloads and on the network itself, is properly monitored. The amendment would enable this and other measures to be monitored and their operations made transparent to ensure that the stakeholder working group is working on the right track.
One effect of the amendment would be to continue to build the esteem of the stakeholder working group and encourage it to continue trying to seek consensus on the most controversial aspects of our rights of way. It should be an important aid to the Minister in communicating the effectiveness of the process to draw up a definitive map and statement of public rights of way, and he should welcome it. I beg to move.
Lord De Mauley
My Lords, before I start, like the noble Lord, Lord Grantchester, I should declare an interest in that I am the owner of land over which pass public rights of way.
Perhaps I may also say by way of preamble that the rights of way reforms package, of which Clauses 21 to 27 will form the basis, is founded on the recommendations of the independently chaired stakeholder working group on unrecorded rights of way. The group consists of 15 members—five from each of the key sectors: local authorities, landowners and rights of way users. It contains members of the Ramblers, the British Horse Society, the National Farmers’ Union, the Country Land and Business Association, the National Association of Local Councils and the Local Government Association. I may say a bit more about that in a debate on a later group of amendments.
Amendment 13, in the name of the noble Lord, Lord Grantchester, seeks to ensure that the Government monitor the success or otherwise of the rights of way reform package after implementation. That is a worthy objective and one with which I have no disagreement. That is why the Government have already given a commitment that they will arrange for the stakeholder working group to carry out a review. We said in the other place during the Committee stage that,
“the stakeholder working group’s advice will be sought on the constitution of the review panel, as was set out in another of the group’s proposals. The panel will be able to advise on how well the reforms are working and whether any further measures need to be taken before the cut-off date”.—[Official Report, Commons, Deregulation Bill Committee, 6/3/14; col. 238.]
While it is important to monitor the implementation and effectiveness of the rights of way clauses, it seems ironic to use a deregulatory Bill to impose on government and, in turn, on local authorities the statutory burden of making a formal report to Parliament. The additional bureaucracy that such a formal reporting mechanism would create runs contrary to the aims of this Bill. Indeed, the proposal runs contrary to the recommendations of the stakeholder working group itself. In its proposal 21, the group said:
“A stakeholder review panel should be constituted after implementation of the Group’s proposals to review progress with recording or protecting useful or potentially useful pre-1949 rights of way before the cut-off”.
Since the stakeholder working group has shown itself to be so effective in working together to develop solutions, I suggest that it would be wrong not to entrust the group with advising on the most appropriate mechanism for carrying out a review of the reforms. It is in the interests of each of the stakeholders on the group that they do so. On that basis, I hope that I can persuade the noble Lord to withdraw his amendment.
Lord Grantchester
I thank the Minister for certain of those clarifications but I should like to press him on the further work of the stakeholder working group. While the amendment limits the annual assessment to a report on the measures in the Bill, it would be helpful if the Minister could clarify any further aspects of this group and how he sees further progress being made. Having confirmed that it will continue, does he believe that its membership is sufficiently widely drawn to tackle more controversial aspects, and will the group be encouraged to come forward with proposals in a timely manner? Even though this is a long way ahead, we are aware of the urgency to make progress, as we will see in debates on further amendments that will be coming up shortly. It would be extremely interesting to hear how the working group may approach the more controversial aspects. The noble Lord should be mindful that we may well return to this at a later date, having considered further debate on the amendments. We reserve judgment about how appropriate it is that the Deregulation Bill should include a proposal to monitor its work going forward.
Lord De Mauley
I think that I have explained that the stakeholder working group is quite broadly constituted in its membership. It has tackled some pretty contentious issues successfully, and I hope the noble Lord will accept that. In terms of how it will work as this goes forward, once all the rights of way reforms have been put in place in both primary and secondary legislation, that group can start preparing a review. Of course, any review by that group will be published by Defra and put on its website. I hope that that helps the noble Lord.
Lord Grantchester
I thank the Minister for his further clarifications. While it is a complex and controversial area that we may revisit at a later stage, in the mean time, I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.
Lord Judd
My Lords, I draw the Committee’s attention to the fact that I am a patron of Friends of the Lake District and vice-president of the Campaign for National Parks, but what I want to say now is very personal. If I have come to any conclusion working in those areas, it is that the management of the countryside and the enjoyment of it by the maximum possible number of people, which entails access, is best handled by what both the noble Lords, Lord Plumb and Lord Greaves, were emphasising: reasonableness and common sense. There has to be give and take, and compromise. What matters is that everyone sees clearly that it is about reaching sensible arrangements between people with their own needs for privacy, as I have. The coast-to-coast cycle track goes down a lane beside my house right by the window of one of my rooms—it is not a bathroom; it is a study—so I understand that there are issues in this area, but it is handled sensibly. It is a long-established lane going way back into history before most of the cottages and hamlets were built. Reaching consensus is therefore terribly important.
We have had a special working group working in this area and, as the noble Baroness, Lady Parminter, rightly said, we do not want to start unpicking it because we just do not know what that might lead to. The amendments that have been put forward have a lot in them to be taken very seriously. It is not at all a matter of dismissing them out of hand; rather, it is about listening to those arguments and seeing how we can meet them in that context of reasonableness and common sense. I say to those who have tabled these amendments in good faith—and I have a lot of respect for some of them—that, in the Scottish phrase in law, the case is not proven. However, it is a case that cannot just be dismissed; it should be taken seriously and, if it were ever to be pursued, it would be good if it had more hard statistical evidence at its disposal. It is not just about principles; it is about what, in quantitative terms, the effect of all this is and how big a problem it really is.
Lord Grantchester
I very much endorse the remarks made by the noble Baroness, Lady Parminter, that this group of clauses should be viewed as a package. As all noble Lords have expressed, all these amendments are indeed paved with good intentions. However, they are not completely uncontroversial. The existing provisions are carefully balanced, but presumptions would destroy that balance. Existing legislation already allows for many of the changes. Existing legislation already provides for the diversion of paths out of gardens and farmyards. These changes can and do happen all the time. I am told that, of 1,257 diversion orders that have reached a conclusion in the past three years, 94% did not attract objections. There is a lot of sense in the right to apply being allowed to bed in in the provisions put forward by the stakeholder working group and being properly monitored before there is any amendment to the standard procedures for closing and diverging footpaths.
Amendments 17 and 18 are also interesting in that they bring forward further provisions and further work on the stakeholder working group. I understand that the provisions in Amendment 17 are already agreed in draft by the stakeholder working group and Defra.
Amendment 18 includes elements agreed at the stakeholder working group but go a long way further where the stakeholder group is not agreed. For that reason alone, we would hesitate to endorse that amendment. Specifically, I understand that it is possible to apply to erect gates on restricted byways in line with existing provisions for their erection on footpaths and bridleways, and this is the element that was agreed by the working group. These amendments go somewhat further than the working group proposed by introducing a whole lot of new purposes for which gates and styles may be erected on public rights of way of all kinds. For those reasons we would hesitate to endorse the amendments, although we well recognise the basis on which they have been tabled.
Lord Cameron of Dillington
My Lords, I support Amendment 19 concerning the time limit. We live in a very crowded island and I believe that England is the fifth most densely populated country in the world. There is huge competition for land use across a wide spectrum of activities, and the planning system is a very obvious example of where the use of land is democratically decided upon. It seems to me that the simplest way to avoid disputes is to have certainty and a clear decision-making process that adjudicates clearly and fairly with clear time limits so that everyone knows where they stand as soon as possible.
The whole point about a Section 31 deposit of a map and statement by a farmer is to create certainty so that the householder, the farmer or the landowner and the public know what is permissible and what is not. With a Section 31 deposit there is usually a conversation between the farmer and the highway authority. The local highway authority agrees the deposit of the maps, so the farmer and the highway authority are in agreement in saying, “This is the situation regarding rights of way on this land”. That clarity is really important to all concerned, including the general public.
A Section 31 deposit is also really important to landowners, among whom I include myself and the son of the noble Lord, Lord Plumb. I welcome most people on to my land. There are people who walk all over it, and kids cycle across the fields and go into the woods. In fact, I get into trouble because they tend to cycle around badger setts, which brings somebody in authority down on my head for allowing that to happen. I am very happy to allow local people to use the land. Sometimes I have to interfere and say, “Thou shall not do this or that”, but on the whole I am very relaxed about it. I am happy to do that provided they are not creating a statutory right—that is, getting rights that are going to infringe any future use of that land because they are establishing rights of way. That is a really important factor. If people can come along and contest a Section 31 deposit of a map and statement several years afterwards, that is completely wrong, and I think that the general public and the walking public will suffer as a result. It may be that a one-year time limit before anyone can object is too short. I would probably have gone for two or maybe even three years. However, it is important that we have some time limit in this whole area.
The other amendment in this group to which I want to refer is Amendment 22. I had slight sympathy for Amendment 20, concerning costs being made against spurious claims, but it is almost impossible for an applicant to know in advance whether their claim is spurious. Therefore, the way to deal with it is to ensure that the proposed statements are true. That is a very good idea. I do not believe that the minor cost involved is a good reason to bypass this reasonable check on a process. The statement needs to be treated as though it has been made in a court of law, even if in reality it has been garnered around a kitchen table in a very relaxed atmosphere with, quite likely, the witness being led in a very unbarrister-like manner by whichever side happens to be taking the statement. It could be being taken on behalf of the Ramblers or on behalf of the landowner, but having to sign a statement of truth is sufficient to ensure that it is the whole truth and nothing but the truth. That would be a very good thing.
Lord Grantchester
My Lords, the proposals in the Bill will make great progress on many aspects and procedures covering rights of way legislation. We welcome this further debate on many aspects that the stakeholder working group raised. While we have addressed and debated some of them, there is as yet no agreement and it may be a long way off. However, we have welcomed the debate and look forward to further progress after these provisions have been enacted.
Lord De Mauley
My Lords, my noble friend’s Amendments 19 to 22 seek to introduce measures that reflect the valid concerns of landowners and farmers about the impact that claims for rights of way can have on their businesses, and about the costs of dealing with such claims during due legal process.
I am aware that there are concerns about the potential effect on some landowners of applications to record a right of way, particularly about multiple applications in an area or even on a single property. An application fee has been suggested as a solution to this issue. However, the introduction of such a fee or charge would be highly contentious. Ministers specifically asked the rights of way stakeholder working group to look at the impact of applications to record a public right of way, particularly at multiple applications, and what measures, including a fee or charge for an application, might be introduced to mitigate this perceived problem. The group agreed to report back to Ministers in the following terms:
“The problem of multiple applications could be an acute one in some cases but it is not widespread and there is little prospect of coming up with a solution, particularly on application charges, on which the full range of stakeholders could agree”.
However, the group’s view was that measures already agreed as part of the reforms package will in any case alleviate most of the problems. The first measure is to raise the threshold for applications. A local authority would be able to reject applications that did not meet a basic evidential test, effectively eliminating spurious or speculative applications. We are proposing to apply this retrospectively, as agreed by the stakeholder working group, by means of the transitional regulations provided for in Clause 27(7), so it would apply to any existing applications that have not yet resulted in an order.
The second enables newly discovered rights of way to be diverted and/or reduced in width before being recorded. This would be by agreement between the local authority and the landowner, with no scope for the agreement to be thwarted by objections. It is possible that this could also be applied retrospectively through the transitional regulations, thus reducing the overall administrative and cost burden of the procedures for recording rights of way.
Taking each of the proposals in my noble friend’s amendment in turn, the proposition to introduce a time limit on applications for an order to modify the definitive map is not as straightforward as it may appear. While it is possible to envisage such a measure for applications that are based solely on evidence of recent use, most rights of way applications are concerned with recording a right of way for which there will be both user evidence and historical documentary evidence, which may not come to light until many years after a landowner makes a statutory declaration under Section 31(6) of the Highways Act 1980.
Viscount Bridgeman (Con)
My Lords, I will be very brief. I support my noble friend Lord Bradshaw’s very comprehensive outline of the purpose of this amendment and I, too, express my regrets to the Committee that I was not able to be present at Second Reading. There is, of course, an element of farce, were this not a really serious matter, in that the precedent is claimed by the off-roaders that these green lanes in the past were open to horse-drawn vehicles. I find it very regrettable that some of the national park authorities, which of all bodies should be the basic guardians of this beautiful and threatened environment for which they are responsible, have not been universally helpful. There has been a wide disparity of co-operation across the local authorities. My noble friend indicated the difficulties that they face. There has certainly been a multiplicity of police and local authorities. It is interesting that one of the success stories is the Ridgeway where there is only one police authority, Thames Valley. In the past, there has been a knight in shining armour on that police authority—my noble friend himself.
The Minister has gone as far as he can in flashing exhibits to this Committee, but I know that he has received pictures of the appalling damage that is done on these green lanes. He made the point about traffic regulation orders, and a lot of authorities are very wary of instituting those for the reasons that he gave: the huge potential cost of defending against challenges.
I am very glad that the noble Lord, Lord Judd, raised the question of disabled access. There have been unfortunate cases where confrontations between groups of learning disabled people and motorcycles or 4x4s have turned violent. We have to remember that the 4x4 and motorcycle groups are very powerful and persuasive, and they do not always have the restraining and responsible influence of the Auto-Cycle Union, to which my noble friend Lord Jopling has referred. I support the working group. The Government’s apparent policy of reconvening these stakeholder groups, which have hitherto failed to reach agreement, is not helpful.
This is an opportunity that will not occur again. I have a feeling that this has been kicked into the long grass—possibly an unfortunate reference in this context, as the green lanes could probably do with a little more of that. However, this opportunity will not occur again for many years to come. It is a simple amendment to rectify unintended gaps in past legislation and I strongly hope that the Minister will give it some consideration.
Lord Grantchester
My Lords, the problems arising from recreational motor vehicles—4x4s and motorbikes—using green lanes, unsealed tracks and other classified county roads have become very serious. For today’s Committee I have received a large postbag of submissions highlighting the disruption to quiet enjoyment of the countryside, and indeed the destruction of the pathway that precludes any other use. The Green Lanes Protection Group, made up of some 20 organisations ranging all the way from the Lake District in Yorkshire through North Wales and the Brecon Beacons to Somerset and the South Downs, has provided evidential photographs of the damage, and this is supported by many green lane alliances and concerned individuals.
This is becoming a serious, pressing matter to sort out. We recognise this and, in expressing sympathy, urge the Government to commit to a way forward. However, I hesitate to prescribe how the Minister should approach this, as the amendment does when it says, for example, that within one year of the Bill’s enactment the Secretary of State must lay before Parliament the report that the amendment calls for.
Perhaps the Minister could say which body, and which process, might be the best way to respond. Would it be once again a stakeholder working group or a sub-committee of wider interest groups that could make recommendations? Legal changes introduced by the NERC Act 2006 have improved the situation by limiting claims for the recognition of additional BOATs and by giving traffic regulation order powers to national park authorities. In places, though, particularly in some national parks, the problems remain extensive and further legislation is most likely to be necessary, along with better enforcement. Any debates on this issue that arise in the context of the Deregulation Bill will be important in paving the way for future legislation.
Lord De Mauley
My Lords, in what is an understandably contentious and partly ideological debate about the recreational use of motor vehicles on unsurfaced routes in the countryside, particularly inside national parks, my noble friend’s proposal seeks to place a duty on the Government to assess the burdens and costs caused by the use of mechanically propelled vehicles on unsealed rights of way. Presupposing that the review would conclude that motor vehicle use gives rise to a burden and cost, the clause would give powers to alleviate these but would not seek any assessment of any possible benefits, or seek to weight burdens and cost against such potential benefits.
I have to say that I have considerable sympathy with the genuine concerns of my noble friend and others about the problems that can arise from the recreational use of motor vehicles on unsealed roads. Like the noble Lord, Lord Judd, and others, I think that my noble friend is right to raise it today. Furthermore, I agree that this issue needs to be tackled and some means of resolution to it found. The Government’s published response to the Joint Committee’s report of pre-legislative scrutiny on the Bill said as much, but recognised that this Bill was not the right mechanism for doing it.
The issue of recreational off-road motor vehicle use is a complex, emotive and contentious one where one person’s pleasurable pastime is anathema to another. Research conducted on byways open to all traffic—admittedly, some years ago in 2005, although I am not aware of there being a significant change—found that although there are some acute cases of damage by recreational motor vehicle use in hot-spot areas, some of which my noble friend and I discussed earlier today, there was no evidence of widespread damage to the byway network from motor vehicles. The research found that 85% of byways open to all traffic in England carried either light traffic, at an average of 0.6 motor vehicles per day, or moderate traffic, at an average of 5.0 motor vehicles per day. Not all damage to unsealed roads and tracks is caused by the recreational use of motor vehicles. The research found that 62% of byway traffic is due to land management and dwelling access and just 38% is due to recreation. In addition, it found that 70% of byways were without any drainage. Much of the damage is due to a combination of farm vehicles, water erosion and poor maintenance.
I must also say that there is good evidence that the use of unsealed roads during organised motoring events, such as hill climbs, puts significant amounts of money into rural economies. There are about 150 hill climb events around the country every year, with over 12,000 participants. The motorcycle club trials in the south-west alone are estimated to bring about £120,000 to the local economy. Some groups of motor vehicle users engage in volunteer activities to repair and maintain unsealed tracks, which I think is something that we would all want to encourage.
It is our contention that the most appropriate way to review policy on the recreational off-road use of motor vehicles is for it to be based on the stakeholder working group model and, in answer to my noble friend Lady Parminter, such a group will be established as soon as possible after the passing of the Bill. Despite my noble friend Lord Bradshaw’s scepticism, I point out that the stakeholder working group approach has proved to be successful, as demonstrated by the consensus in the face of diametrically opposing positions over the rights of way reforms package, of which the clauses in the Bill form the major part. This has resulted in agreement being arrived at through discussion and negotiation.
Thames Tideway Project: Contingent Guarantees
Lord Grantchester Excerpts(10 years, 9 months ago)
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Lord De Mauley
I know that we are always grateful to my noble friend for his grasp of history. He was there. On the question asked by the noble Lord, Lord West, it is important enough that I will write to him.
Lord Grantchester (Lab)
My Lords, we have heard growing anxieties around certain facets of the water industry. Further to the specification and preparatory works notice regarding the Thames tideway tunnel recently published, will the Government look again at the value-for-money condition to provide better clarity concerning financial commitments for customers before agreeing contingent government support?
Lord De Mauley
My Lords, I agree 100% with the noble Lord that value for money for customers is absolutely key and is an absolute focus of the Government.
Public Bodies (Marine Management Organisation) (Fees) Order 2014
Lord Grantchester Excerpts(10 years, 11 months ago)
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Lord Grantchester (Lab)
I thank the Minister for his explanation of the ordering. From these Benches, I am happy to approve of the measure. The Marine Management Organisation is a relatively new organisation set up by the previous Labour Government under the Marine and Coastal Access Act 2009. It was set up with cross-party support, and it is encouraging that it still receives that support.
We continue with our support for this order to allow the MMO to move towards full cost recovery in relation to the activities it undertakes. The old licensing system under Part 2 of the Food and Environment Protection Act 1985 was insufficient in a number of ways to allow cost recovery. It is therefore regrettable that, under the charging powers of the Marine and Coastal Access Act, monitoring costs, especially for dredging, are still not fully recoverable. While powers under the Public Bodies Act are being used to move more quickly towards full cost recovery, I join with the Secondary Legislation Scrutiny Committee in considering that it would be desirable that Defra remedies the situation through an amendment to the MCAA 2009 at an early opportunity.
I also recognise that the MMO has undertaken a review of activities and moved quickly to reduce unnecessary burdens and costs on businesses and other marine users by increasing the number of exempt activities, expanding the use of longer licences and other efficiency measures. Further improvements will be encouraged through the organisation’s stakeholder forum group, customer satisfaction surveys and key performance indicators.
Can the Minister clarify further, however, how the MMO will operate in relation to establishing an ambitious, ecologically coherent and well managed network of marine protection areas, which was also part of the MCCA 2009? Can he confirm that the MMO will be involved under the power to designate marine conservation zones in UK waters? What assessment have the Government made to allow the MMO to move towards full cost recovery in the activity on designation and regulation of the planned marine coastal zones? An independent science advisory panel concluded that 120 sites would contribute to an ecologically coherent network of marine protected areas, and that this network would need to be strengthened. However, in November 2013, the Government designated just 27 zones, covering 8,000 square kilometres of offshore waters and around 2,000 square kilometres of inshore waters. Will these cost recovery powers allow more sites to be designated and monitored at an earlier date—that is, much sooner—following further site-specific conservation advice?
Finally, I ask the Minister whether, under the regulations for fee ceilings, which will limit the cost to smaller-scale projects for small businesses, the cost met by the public subsidy will have a cap attached. If so, at what level will it be and how will it work? With those few comments, I am content to support the order.
Lord De Mauley
My Lords, I thank noble Lords for their comments on the order—in particular those of the noble Lord, Lord Greenway, which were helpful.
Noble Lords know that we are committed to achieving a sustainable marine economy, which means, among other things, having an effective system for managing activities taking place in our seas. The marine planning and licensing systems are operated by the Marine Management Organisation and are key to that. In setting up the MMO, the Government have been keen to ensure that it can operate effectively and efficiently, and it needs to have the right people and resources to act as a modern enabling regulator. This means working to find solutions that enable sustainable growth to take place while protecting and enhancing the marine environment. It also means recovering the reasonable costs that it incurs in licensing.
Noble Lords referred to the views of the Secondary Legislation Scrutiny Committee. As I said, the committee has agreed with the Government that, in the longer term, it will be desirable to rectify the deficiency in charging powers through an amendment to the Marine and Coastal Access Act, and we will continue to look for a suitable opportunity to do that.
The noble Lord, Lord Grantchester, asked a number of questions, partly around MPAs. As he said, we have announced an initial 27. The MMO will be involved in meeting the objectives on marine conservation zones; for example, through marine plans and licensing. We intend to designate further sites and will make a decision on them early next year.
The noble Lord’s other questions centred on capping of fees. Costs will be met by public subsidy, which we will be able to manage through careful case management and efficiencies. If I have missed anything in that answer, I will write to the noble Lord, but I hope that he will accept it.
Approval of the order will enable the MMO to recover the cost of regulatory activities that it cannot currently charge for. As I have said, this change will result in a saving of about £600,000 annually to taxpayers. Despite that not being a huge sum of money, it will make a big difference to the MMO’s finances in these straitened times and is essential to delivering and maintaining a high-quality service. I thank noble Lords for their contributions.
Thames Tideway Tunnel
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Lord De Mauley
My Lords, I am pleased to say that an early initiative of this Government was to enhance our Civil Service’s ability to lead large projects, and indeed to render that ability on a level with the best of the private sector. We set up the Major Projects Leadership Academy, which is run by the Saïd Business School. I met Defra graduates and those undergoing the course there on Monday this week, and an impressive bunch they are.
Lord Grantchester (Lab)
Given the cost of living crisis, Ofwat rightly rejected Thames Water’s application to increase bills further. Given that Thames Water paid out £2.2 billion in dividends over the past six years and pays little or no corporation tax, what leadership are the Government showing to ensure the right vehicle for financing, managing and delivering the project is put in place, and that it will be subject to parliamentary oversight?
Lord De Mauley
My Lords, there is quite a lot in that question, but I should say to the noble Lord that Labour harps on about the cost of living, yet its own policies—spending commitments totalling £27.9 billion since 3 June last year, unworkable energy policies and increased borrowing—would increase it.
Public Bodies (Abolition of the Committee on Agricultural Valuation) Order 2014
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The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs (Lord De Mauley) (Con)
I welcome this opportunity to introduce the order. It may be helpful if I explain why the Government have proposed to remove the Committee on Agricultural Valuation. The origins of the committee go back more than 60 years to the Agricultural Holdings Act 1948. On repeal of the 1948 Act, the committee’s existence was continued by the Agricultural Holdings Act 1986. The role of the Committee on Agricultural Valuation is to give advice to Ministers about provisions to be included in regulations on tenant-right matters and the amount of compensation for improvements to be paid to tenants at the end of an agricultural tenancy in England and Wales. Ministers are not obliged to take account of the advice of the committee.
There are no current members of the committee and the last time members were appointed was in 1990. It has not functioned for more than 20 years, hence the committee exists in legal name rather than reality. The Tenancy Reform Industry Group, known as TRIG, has provided advice to the Government on agricultural tenancy issues since 2003. TRIG is a non-statutory body, which comprises representatives of the main industry and professional organisations, such as the National Farmers’ Union, the Tenant Farmers Association, the Country Land and Business Association, the Farmers’ Union of Wales, the Central Association of Agricultural Valuers and the Royal Institution of Chartered Surveyors.
TRIG has not replaced the Committee on Agricultural Valuation and provides advice on a non-statutory basis across the range of tenancy matters, rather than just on end-of-tenancy compensation provisions. However, the existence of TRIG means that it is no longer necessary to retain the legislative provisions for the Committee on Agricultural Valuation to give specific advice on end-of-tenancy compensation matters.
As noble Lords know, the Government have made a commitment to reduce the number of unnecessary public bodies. In July 2010, my right honourable friend Caroline Spelman, then the Secretary of State for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs, announced proposals to reform a number of departmental public bodies; these included the Committee on Agricultural Valuation. The Public Bodies Act 2011 provides the legislative mechanism for the Government to carry out reform of public bodies. The Committee on Agricultural Valuation is listed in Schedule 1 to the Act. This enables the Minister to lay an order under the 2011 Act to abolish the committee.
In accordance with the requirements of the Public Bodies Act, a consultation was carried out in England and Wales last autumn. Having carefully considered the consultation responses, it is now proposed to repeal the legislation which provides for the Committee on Agricultural Valuation by an order under the Public Bodies Act.
Welsh Ministers have given their consent to the abolition of the committee. A legislative consent Motion was agreed without debate in the Welsh Assembly on Tuesday 1 April. The abolition of the committee has no impact on the ability of agricultural tenants to claim compensation at the end of a tenancy. As the committee is already effectively moribund, its abolition will have no impact on jobs, nor will it result in any savings for the Government. However, it will remove an unnecessary public body from the legislative framework.
I should probably disclose the fact that I am a landlord and have a tenant. I hope that this explanation has been helpful.
Lord Grantchester (Lab)
My Lords, I thank the Minister for his explanation of the order. I will make a declaration of interest as a farmer, but I have no tenants.
The Minister can relax and be assured that we are happy to endorse the order. He will forgive me if I delay the Committee for a few moments to ask a few questions for clarification. I appreciate that the committee has not met for over 20 years and that the term of the last appointments to the committee expired in 1993. Its abolition will have no impact on the functioning of agricultural tenancy legislation, especially as most new tenancies are now farm business tenancies under the Agricultural Tenancies Act 1995, for which different legislative arrangements apply for end-of-tenancy compensation.
We also have TRIG, as the Minister explained, set up by my noble friend Lord Whitty, to provide advice to government on agricultural tenancy matters as a non-statutory advisory body. Can the Minister confirm that there have been no costs from this committee’s dormancy and that, therefore, there are no savings to be achieved through this abolition.
In the explanatory document, the results of the consultation on this order were summarised. Notably, the Tenant Farmers Association made comments that the abolition should follow the enactment of the amended Agriculture (Calculation of Value for Compensation) Regulations 1978 agreed by TRIG, which have been with Ministers for some time and need urgent attention. I have no doubt that the Minister would want to bring this forward with any further amendments to the compensation regulations as part of the wider package of tenancy reform to ensure that legislative changes are complementary.
In the consultation, the chairman of TRIG also stated that abolition was supported, provided that TRIG’s proposed amendments to the Agriculture (Calculation of Value for Compensation) Regulations 1978 were enacted. I therefore ask the Minister whether the TFA gave any reasons in its consultation response as to why it felt that abolition should follow enactment of the new regulations. Was it consequential in any way or does it merely reveal frustration that these regulations have not been amended since 1983? Does the Minister have a timeframe in mind for bringing forward these amended regulations?
The Minister has already updated us on the situation in Wales, for which I thank him. Finally, I want to widen our consideration to include understanding the current position of his department under the Public Bodies Act 2011. There was some debate in the other place on this point, but no discussion concerning the money saved, which I understand was to be the main justification for the great burning of the quangos. While this order is a tidying-up exercise, no money will have been saved from the committee’s abolition. Will the Minister update this Committee on how much dead wood has now been burnt, how much has been saved by his department and what further savings may be expected?
I should be happy to receive an answer in writing listing the full names with commensurate cost implications of the quangos that have been abolished or reconstituted as a committee of experts, which are being retained and which are still to be reckoned with. We can then judge what percentage have been burnt and how successful the Public Bodies Bill 2011 has been in its contention to save public money. An outline today would be most appreciated, provided that the Minister will confirm that he will write with a full assessment of the Public Bodies Act on his department. With that, I am content to agree to the order today.
Lord De Mauley
My Lords, I thank the noble Lord, Lord Grantchester, for his comments, and for his general support of the order to remove the Committee on Agricultural Valuation. As I said, this order removes what is effectively a moribund body that has not met for more than 20 years. Its removal will have no impact on the relationship between agricultural tenants and their landlords. Qualifying tenants will still be entitled to claim compensation at the end of a tenancy, in accordance with the current legislative provisions.
Following recommendations from the Tenancy Reform Industry Group, we will shortly be consulting on changes to the Agriculture (Calculation of Value for Compensation) Regulations 1978, with a view to updating them as part of measures for wider reforms of tenancy legislation. That partly answers the noble Lord’s question, which I shall come back to in a moment. This will ensure that the compensation regulations and other tenancy legislation are brought up to date to provide a modern framework for the future.
The noble Lord asked various questions, the first of which was about savings. I can confirm that there are no savings. This measure is about not savings but tidying-up. Returning to the issue of the order of the various reforms, the abolition of the Committee on Agricultural Valuation is not dependent on amending the compensation regulations. As part of the agriculture theme of the Red Tape Challenge process, my department will be consulting on a number of changes to reform agricultural tenancy legislation. It was felt that it would be more sensible to take forward amendments to the Agriculture (Calculation of Value for Compensation) Regulations 1978, which were proposed by the Tenancy Reform Industry Group, as part of this wider package of tenancy reform. This will ensure that the proposed legislative changes complement one another.
We will be consulting on all proposed amendments to agriculture and tenancy legislation in 2014 with a view to making the changes in this Parliament where the legislative timetable permits. Moreover, as the legislation currently stands, we would be required to reconvene the Committee on Agricultural Valuation to make changes to the compensation regulations. As there are no current members of the committee, it would be time-consuming and would require a public appointment exercise, which would not be cost-effective. We took the view that abolition of the committee should not be delayed but should take place as soon as possible.
The noble Lord asked a more general question about progress on reform of public bodies. We have made good progress on the major reforms. We have been working to reduce the number of bodies from 92 in 2010 to 36 by 2015. So far, we have abolished 50 non-departmental public bodies. There are now only a few bodies still to be abolished and these are mainly defunct or non-operational. We are also making progress on 120 bodies that were due to be retained and substantially reformed. The vast majority of these are internal drainage boards, for which reforms are under way. Substantial reforms have already been made to the Environment Agency and Natural England. On his detailed questions, I will take advantage of his invitation to write to him.
Lord Grantchester
Has the Minister any idea on cost savings to his department under the Public Bodies Bill to date? That would be most helpful.
Lord De Mauley
May I include that in the letter? On that basis, I commend this order to the Committee.
Water Bill
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Lord Grantchester
“( ) Prior to making any regulations under subsection (5), the Secretary of State shall require the Committee on Climate Change to provide current and projected estimates of the number of properties that would be eligible for—
(a) inclusion in the Flood Reinsurance Scheme;(b) the value of levy required under section 53; and(c) the likelihood of an additional levy or contributions being needed from time to time.( ) The Secretary of State shall use the advice of the Committee on Climate Change when prescribing a target number under section 58(1).”
Lord Grantchester (Lab)
My Lords, as we have seen in recent months, flooding has devastating effects on people’s lives and livelihoods across all spectrums of society. Although Flood Re is a commendable scheme designed to help many who are most vulnerable to flooding, we on this side of the House think that considerable gaps exist which must be addressed.
One of our main concerns is how the scheme will operate within the 25-year span and adapt to weather conditions resulting from climate change. I am sure that noble Lords have seen today’s headlines concerning the IPCC report on climate change, which said that climate change will significantly impact on our weather conditions, especially as regards flooding. The report states:
“Increasing magnitudes of warming increase the likelihood of severe, pervasive, and irreversible impacts”.
We have the opportunity to respond to the threats posed by climate change, not only to ensure that we protect those who are most vulnerable to flooding but to assess how the level of flooding, and the implications of that, will change over time. As my noble friend Lord Whitty stated in Committee, Flood Re cannot be established on a totally static basis. It needs to be adaptable to a dynamic process called weather. The numbers at high risk are likely to increase, and the number of high-risk properties could treble to even more than 1 million. Climate change is a reality although some may have doubts concerning its cause. Nevertheless, it has affected, and will continue to affect, the risk of flooding, and its effects, in the future.
This amendment seeks to ensure that the Secretary of State consults the Committee on Climate Change, and uses its advice, when prescribing a target number of affected properties under Clause 58(1). The Committee on Climate Change’s adaptation sub-committee, which is chaired by my noble friend Lord Krebs, is the key adviser to the Government on the number of properties likely to be at risk of flooding over the timeframes envisaged by the scheme. The Secretary of State should take credible and independent benchmarked advice from the Committee on Climate Change and provide accurate and clear targets when reporting to Parliament. At present, the number of policies eligible for Flood Re is based on the cost of the flood risk component of any policy, which is set by the insurers and will differ based on each insurer’s assessment.
The Government therefore doubt how beneficial the committee’s advice would be, especially on a financial basis. However, it is important to realise that the principle and purpose behind Flood Re is to help to provide affordable insurance for households in flood risk areas which might otherwise find it difficult. This is bound to change over time. It would be nonsensical to say that no advantage could be gained from a sub-committee of the Committee on Climate Change giving its observations on the changes that this scheme may have to face over time as a result of further climate change.
A lot of elements are considered when setting targets under Clause 58(1) but, at the same time, a huge element cannot be fulfilled by the insurance industry alone and one needs the input of appropriate advisers, notably the Committee on Climate Change. I trust that the whole House can see the value of this amendment. I beg to move.
Lord Grantchester
My Lords, it surely would be beneficial for the Secretary of State to take the advice of the Committee on Climate Change. The noble Lord, Lord Krebs, accepts the task. Target numbers should not solely be based on figures from the insurance industry and should recognise the changes in climate as a fundamental element of the change in the nature of Flood Re over the next 25 years.
Let us be clear. In relation to an earlier amendment, the noble Lord, Lord Crickhowell, quoted Hiscox which said that, of 885,000 homes in high-risk areas, around 350,000 of them will be excluded, which is around 4% of the housing stock. A more telling statistic is that this is 40% of the high-risk properties. I understand the picture is complicated by the fact that much flooding occurs outside high-risk areas. The nature and scope of flooding are changing rapidly. I am told that 80% of its claims for recent floods came from homes that Hiscox did not consider to be at risk of flood. If this is the position today, how can we hope to keep abreast of the situation over the next 25 years of this scheme without recognised, independent expertise as could be provided by the Committee on Climate Change?
I hope that the noble Earl, Lord Lytton, will reflect on the nature of change and the size of the risk of flooding over the next 25 years and will join me in the Contents Lobby. I am expecting the work of the noble Lord, Lord Krebs, to be a prophet for the future as well as an assessment of the insurance industry, which I hope will persuade the noble Earl, Lord Cathcart, that science should also have a role. Flooding and climate change are matters of huge impact to more and more people. I wish to test the opinion of the House.
Lord Grantchester
My Lords, I rise to speak to Amendment 90CE, which is grouped with these amendments. I was slightly confused as to whether the Government were putting their name to our amendment, because I noticed that we have a little “g” in front of our Amendment 90CE. But I will take that as a misprint and that I must still convince the Government of the merit of the case.
The amendment would put in place regulations that would add clarity to set the date of commencement for Flood Re. It would also create a database of properties at risk of flooding and indicate whether the property is covered by the flood scheme. The amendment will insist that the database must be set up before Flood Re starts, as that would be logically helpful.
I begin by welcoming the Government’s helpful concession, particularly in Amendment 90B, which sets out regulations to allow insurers to provide information to policyholders in the scheme. We are glad that the Government have listened and acted on our concerns expressed in Committee with the introduction of their amendment, but we still feel that it does not go far enough. Delivering information to those already in the scheme—that is, policyholders—is helpful as far as it goes. Although it is important that insurance companies are well equipped and able to deliver information to policyholders in relation to the flood scheme and how they can protect their properties adequately, we believe that the database proposed by our amendment would be a lot more useful, primarily for potential homeowners but also for mortgage lenders. It has become much more difficult of late for people to get mortgages and it is even more difficult to get a mortgage if the mortgage lender is at all concerned about damage from flooding. As such, information should be provided to homebuyers at the start of their journey of finding a home rather than further along the process, after they have agreed with the vendor on a purchase or when they are at the stage of consulting mortgage companies after engaging solicitors. The database must be accessible to everyone and allow them to check whether a property for sale or rent is covered by the scheme and highlight its risk to flooding. This would prevent the all too recognisable reality experienced by people in the recent flooding whereby home owners were blindsided by their properties flooding and then found themselves caught when their insurance companies reassessed their policy terms. The database would also avoid the scenario whereby a home owner may believe that they are covered by Flood Re when in reality they are not.
It is a very straightforward amendment, which brings the whole subject of the database and properties into the public domain. It would add transparency and clarity to the scheme. At present, with the complicated nature of the scheme, especially in terms of eligibility, we should do all that we can to assist those potentially affected by the scheme by making them all the more aware of where they stand with regard to flood insurance on the property that they are inquiring about, not just once they become policyholders. We have already heard today of the complexities behind the scheme as regards leaseholders, as well as the exclusions for small businesses and other aspects.
Baroness Northover
My Lords, I thank the noble Lord, Lord Grantchester, for tabling Amendment 90CE, which proposes a publicly searchable database of flood risk. I am desolate that I must disappoint him as we cannot accept the amendment even though it does have a little “g” in front of it. Nevertheless, we agree with the intention behind the amendment that households that are ceded to Flood Re should be made aware of their flood risk. Knowing about flood risk is essential to helping affected households to manage their flood risk effectively, both in the short and long term. That is why we have recently published a note entitled Homebuyers and Their Flood Risk, in which we have explained the information currently available to prospective homebuyers.
It is a well established principle of the conveyancing process that the onus is on the buyer of a property to conduct their own searches and investigations into the potential risks to that property. In England, the Environment Agency provides a freely accessible resource of flood risk information for any area. Anyone may use this service to identify whether their post code is at risk of flooding from rivers, the sea or surface water. Similar resources are available to households in other parts of the UK. Should a household wish to identify flood risks specific to their property, commissioning a flood risk survey from a suitably experienced professional would identify the ways in which water can enter a property and what measures could be taken to prevent or limit possible damage. We believe that requiring Flood Re to help insurers guide their customers to information about flood risk and how to manage it will add significantly to public awareness of flood risk. That is why I moved Amendment 90B and I thank the noble Lord, Lord Grantchester, for his welcome of it. I hope therefore that noble Lords are willing to accept the government amendments in this group and that the noble Lord will be content not to move his amendment.
Earl Cathcart
My Lords, my noble friend Lord Howard moved this amendment in Committee. Unfortunately, he cannot be here today and has asked me to move it again on his behalf.
As a farmer, I pay land drainage rates and, in a past life, I was a member of a Norfolk internal drainage board. Internal drainage boards get their funding from two sources: from farmers and agricultural landowners, for draining agricultural land—this is the land drainage rate; and from local authorities, for draining developed areas—this is the special levy. IDBs work out the special levy that they charge local authorities based on the value per hectare of the developed land. This is clearly set out in the Land Drainage Act 1991. This amendment does not change this calculation, which is clear, fair and transparent. IDBs need to know the value per hectare of developed land to calculate the special levy. However, the Land Drainage Act 1991 says that IDBs must work out the value per hectare of developed land from lists of rateable values of property compiled in 1990—25 years ago. Using these old lists of rateable values to work out the value per hectare of developed land is neither fair nor transparent as the IDB needs to have the lists. In many cases, the lists no longer exist. In addition, they are out of date and do not include anything built after 1990. As the lists are out of date, the variation of values in them may be wrong as relative property values between areas have changed since1990.
The only way to solve this problem is to change the Land Drainage Act through this amendment to give the Defra Secretary of State the power to set out another way of working out the value per hectare of developed land, so that IDBs do not have to use the old rateable value lists, if they have them.
The amendment is not prescriptive. We do not want to repeat the mistakes of the past by setting the way of working out the value per hectare of developed land in primary legislation. The amendment would rectify that mistake by taking the prescription out of the Land Drainage Act and instead giving discretion to Defra to set a method that is appropriate now, and to change it in the future if circumstances change. This is important as IDBs do vital work not just in protecting people, their homes and businesses and some of our best farm land, but also play a key role in keeping our power stations, ports, roads and railways working.
In addition to their usual maintenance costs, IDBs now face heavy bills to repair and rebuild defences, drainage ditches and pumping stations after the ravages of this winter, with its record rainfall and the biggest tidal surge in 60 years. Unless IDBs have a fair way of valuing developed land, they cannot set a fair special levy on local authorities, so they cannot raise the funds they need to do their vital work. This amendment will ensure that IDBs can get the funds to do their vital work, while also sorting out past mistakes by replacing prescriptive and out-of-date legislation with a simple discretionary power.
After my noble friend Lord Howard brought forward this amendment in Committee, my noble friend Lord De Mauley wrote to all 120-odd IDBs to ask whether this was a concern for them. When I met my noble friend Lord De Mauley and his officials last week, he said he could not conclude that it was an overwhelming concern as he had had only six responses from the IDBs. I do not know the timescale between the letter being sent out and our meeting, but I do not think it was that long. I do not know what the latest position is with regard to responses from the IDBs, but I do know that the Association of Drainage Authorities has written supporting the amendment. The CLA and the NFU have also written supporting the amendment.
The letter from the NFU adds another point that I have not raised yet. It states:
“The NFU … considers that there is a need for this change both for existing IDBs but also to enable the creation of new IDBs in areas where they don’t currently exist, we would therefore urge support of this amendment”.
It goes on:
“Such an amendment is especially important for areas where the Environment Agency is considering to withdraw from maintaining significant drainage assets. It is our view that in areas such as on the Pevensey Levels in East Sussex or within the Alt Crossens catchment in West Lancashire, to name but two, there is a strong need for IDBs to be established in order that existing water level management activity may continue and that the cost of that activity is shared equitably between the beneficiaries”.
I hope my noble friend will accept this amendment. Being more realistic, I hope that he does not reject it today, but rather agrees to take it away and look at it between now and Third Reading. If he then agrees that there is a hole that needs plugging, he can either accept the amendment or come back with his own. I beg to move.
Lord Grantchester
My Lords, during our debates in Committee, the amendment of the noble Lord, Lord Howard of Rising, and the noble Earl, Lord Cathcart, seemed purely a matter of practicality. The noble Earl should be congratulated on finding this shortfall in the relevant documents. The Minister wished to reserve the Government’s position pending further evidence. I merely rise to ask the Minister whether the position could be addressed by secondary legislation. That would allow Parliament to keep a watch on the situation and assess when and if it develops.
Lord Cameron of Dillington
My Lords, I apologise that I did not manage to get in before the Labour Front Bench. Before the excellent exposition by the noble Earl, Lord Cathcart, I had no detailed knowledge of the technical benefits brought about by this amendment. However, I do know about the vital importance of the role of IDBs in the land drainage sector, both as a former chairman of the CLA water committee, who was once the keynote speaker at an Association of Drainage Authorities lunch—a memorable occasion—and as a farming resident in Somerset.
The 2010 Act, not entirely wisely in my view, gave new land drainage responsibilities to county councils and district councils, taking away from the previously comprehensive responsibility of the Environment Agency and IDBs. This has caused a degree of chaos, certainly in Somerset, with no one really taking full responsibility for their duties or even, to begin with, knowing what those duties entailed. That is by the by. My key point is that the one solid rock in all this has been the IDBs. Their local and comprehensive technical and engineering expertise is absolutely vital and we would be lost without them. Anything that helps them to perform their duties better must be in all our best interests. I strongly support this amendment, which would seem to further that end.
Water Bill
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Lord Deben (Con)
My Lords, I declare a past interest as a former chairman of a water company in this country and I sit on the board of one on the continent of Europe. I hope that my noble friend will take the remarks of the noble Earl, Lord Selborne, very carefully because there is a tendency to think of water as if it is like any other utility. Of course it is not because water is different, wherever you take it from, and it will be under bigger pressure than ever before because of the effects of climate change and of demand increases.
It is often possible in a small area to provide a small programme of water supply at a lower price because it is being tailored particularly and for very narrow demands. We are going to have to find better ways of sharing water supply in any case because of what is happening in this country, so the point that my noble friend Lord Selborne raises is very important. I have read carefully my noble friend’s comments about the Bill. None of us wants to reduce the amount of competition which the Bill provides, but I hope that the Minister will give some reassurance which goes beyond merely saying that Ofwat has the powers to deal with this. That is because I share my noble friend’s doubts that Ofwat has those and whether those powers would stand up in law—certainly, whether they would stand up were the law part of the very valuable European legal structure under which we operate. Thank God for the European Union, or we would never have the water supply which we have today. Our water would be much less clean and we would have much lower standards. We owe a great deal to our membership of the European Union on this, as on most other things.
However, on this particular issue we have to ensure that the Bill does not put us into a position in which de-averaging—one of the ugliest words in the English language—becomes a serious problem. I hope that the Minister will be able to reassure me that the legal situation is fully covered because I, too, think that there is sufficient precedent to make anybody reasonably concerned.
Lord Grantchester (Lab)
My Lords, I declare my interests as a farmer, thereby living in a rural area. Like the noble Earl, Lord Selborne, I am concerned with the effects generally on rural areas. While there are risks, I am not sure that this is the case here. We support the introduction of competition into the non-domestic market and take the issue of de-averaging very seriously. The noble Lord, Lord Deben, has spoken about how we must, indeed, be assiduous in making sure that price averaging is maintained as far as possible. However, we are satisfied that Ofwat has all the necessary regulatory tools to enable it to limit the effects of de-averaging.
Competition can also be about bringing innovation to the market in services and introducing efficiencies. However, we remain concerned that these amendments, which have been tabled by the noble Earl, Lord Selborne, might allow incumbent suppliers to constrain the development of future markets, thereby reducing the benefits that competition could bring.
Baroness Parminter (LD)
My Lords, in welcoming the proposals to open up retail competition in the business sector, on Second Reading I, too, raised my concern, like other noble Lords, about the potential for the de-averaging of prices. Ensuring that rural or remote businesses do not pay more than their urban counterparts is vital. We need to share costs for water fairly, regardless of location.
In Committee, the Minister reassured the House that the regulator had the necessary tools to limit the effects of de-averaging on customer charges. Having talked to Ofwat myself, I know that it confirms that this is its belief. Equally, the Consumer Council for Water, which has the interests of water customers at its core, commissioned Martin Cave to review the issue, and he has confirmed that Ofwat can facilitate upstream competition without de-averaging.
The Government will be producing charging guidance to Ofwat, which the Minister confirmed will explicitly say that de-averaging can occur only where it is in the best interests of customers. This Bill provides Parliament with the opportunity to debate and vote on that charging guidance, following a consultation process, so that we have the necessary safeguards to ensure that it does. Not only will Ofwat have to act in accordance with such guidance, but the Consumer Council for Water will be a statutory consultee in the preparation of Ofwat’s charging rules. This seems to me to be a reasonable defence against the potential for de-averaging of water bills, particularly given that as a final resort the Government can veto Ofwat’s charging rules if they do not reflect the guidance given.
On that basis, I am satisfied with the assurances given by my noble friend the Minister, and I will not support the amendments tabled by my noble friend Lord Selborne.
Lord Grantchester
“Collection of debt from tenants
(1) The Water Industry Act 1991 is amended as follows.
(2) After section 147 (charging for emergency use of water) there is inserted—
“147AA Charges to recover losses from bad debt
(1) The Secretary of State, or the Authority, may prohibit losses to an undertaker due to non-payment of bills from being recovered through charges on customers.
(2) Where an undertaker does not have information about a resident in a property who is using water, if the occupants of that property are tenants, the landlord must, on request, provide to the undertaker contact details for the tenants.
(3) This section comes into force on the day after the Secretary of State has laid before Parliament a report setting out how water companies have failed to take action on these matters.””
Lord Grantchester
My Lords, the issue of bad debt, particularly in the private rented sector, was debated in Committee. Amendment 71 seeks to prohibit water companies from making good their losses due to non-payment through increased charges on good, bill-paying customers.
Under this amendment, water companies must follow up on any debt with the specific resident customer. However, getting the details of the customer can be difficult in properties where the resident customer is a tenant in the private rented sector. The landlord of the property will be required by proposed new subsection (2) to supply details of the tenant to the water company to enable it to chase up the debt. This is an improvement on the present system, where the company simply makes good the shortfall across all other customers.
Ofwat estimates that 80% of bad debt originates from the private rented sector. As stated in Committee, it is estimated that about £15 is added to honest bill-payers’ water bills to cover bills left unpaid. We are aware that there are people who have difficulty with affordability—we have discussed this already today—but on the other hand there are those who can pay but simply do not. This is effectively stealing water from other genuine bill-payers, adding an unnecessary cost to their bills. The situation can be rectified by this amendment.
This approach is supported by the Consumer Council for Water, Ofwat, the EFRA Committee in the other place, and water companies. In June 2012 the EFRA Committee said:
“It is simply unacceptable that, at a time when so many are struggling to afford their water bills, customers face the additional burden of subsidising those who refuse to pay what they owe”.
Baroness Northover
My Lords, we all agree that bad debt in this sector must be tackled effectively. However, we believe that the best ways to do this are through the sector-led voluntary approach to information-sharing and by Ofwat getting the regulatory penalties and incentives right.
While we strongly support the aim of the amendment, we cannot agree that it is necessary because, as noble Lords will be aware—the noble Lord, Lord Grantchester, made reference to this—very similar provision already exists in primary legislation. Without anything changing in the Bill before us, the power exists for the Government to bring forward regulations to require landlords to provide water companies with details of their tenants. This could happen if it seemed appropriate.
However, after consulting widely with all those who would be affected by this measure, we decided that a voluntary approach would be more suitable than imposing those regulations. Landlords felt that it would not be fair to penalise them financially for the debts of others. Having looked carefully at all the evidence, we took the view that there was much more that the water sector could do to address the issue, and there is evidence that some companies are already doing it. It is important that we make decisions based on the evidence; and the evidence showed us that good practice in tackling bad debt is not applied consistently across the water sector.
On earlier amendments on affordability, the noble Earl, Lord Selborne, and others suggested that water companies’ hands were perhaps tied on bad debt. Several companies have excellent performance in the recovery of bad debt—there are many things that they can do—but many others do not. Water companies can, and many already do, use the courts to pursue debtors. However, too many companies still fail to use all the debt collection tools at their disposal and we want improvements in performance in this area.
By way of illustration, perhaps I might give noble Lords some examples of what we identify as good practice. Yorkshire Water is an outstanding example of good work on bad debt. It partners with Experian’s credit account information-sharing service. Yorkshire Water assesses all new customers’ credit histories, which enables it to tailor services to each individual, supporting those in financial difficulty and providing sanctions for those who avoid payment. Another effective scheme is the arrears allowance scheme run by United Utilities, which supports 8,300 customers. For the first six months, the company matches customers’ repayments pound for pound; then the company matches every £1 paid with a £2 allowance until arrears are cleared.
However, at the moment, by no means all companies use these approaches. We wish to see such approaches become much more widespread, and the regulator wants to promote this, too. The methodology for the current price review places a much stronger focus on the responsibility of the company to collect its debts.
The sector as a whole is now starting to respond to this challenge. It is working with landlords’ organisations to establish a new voluntary scheme. Soon, it will launch a database that enables landlords to provide tenant information voluntarily. Crucially, this scheme is supported by the industry through Water UK and the main landlords’ organisations. We wish to give this new system a chance to work and we hope that noble Lords opposite will do so, too.
Ofwat decides which costs may be recovered through the price review; it is absolutely central to what it does. It is clear that Ofwat is using the current price review process to bear down on the costs of bad debt, which is clearly very important. The regulator has been very clear to companies about how bad debt is viewed. Companies must demonstrate high performance in debt collection. They are obliged to show that any increase in bad debt is genuinely beyond their control.
I shall refer to a point made by the noble Lord, Lord Whitty, again in relation to the earlier group of amendments on affordability—the noble Lord, Lord Grantchester, may have referred to it just now as well. The noble Lord suggested that bad debt was mostly in the private rented sector. There is no evidence that bad debt is disproportionately in the private sector; nor does provision in the Flood and Water Management Act, which the noble Lord wishes to see implemented, focus on private rented properties. It would make all landlords, both private sector and social landlords, financially liable for their tenants’ debts. We may have misheard or misunderstood the noble Lord, but we wanted to put that clarification on the record in case that that was how the noble Lords opposite viewed the situation.
Intervention in the setting and recovery of charges is a job for the independent economic regulator. Ofwat has all the tools necessary to enable it to do this job, and it is absolutely right that it is allowed to do so independently. Although we share the view of the noble Lord opposite that those who seek to avoid paying for the water provided when they can pay should not push those costs on to others, I hope that he will accept that progress is being made in the way that I have described and will therefore be content to withdraw his amendment.
Lord Grantchester
I thank the Minister for her comments. We were perhaps talking at cross purposes on the amount of bad debt in the private rented sector. The point here is that local authorities and housing associations are much keener on water companies chasing up tenants and therefore reveal to them the details of those tenants far more readily than do landlords in the private rented sector. That could explain the preponderance of bad debt in the private rented sector.
Nevertheless, I contend that the voluntary approach is simply not working fast enough. It is evident that things are going on in this respect—I pay tribute to what is being done—but I am concerned that not all companies are working as assiduously as they could to reduce this problem.
Given that provision already exists in primary legislation, I urge the Government to press forward a little more keenly than they appear to be doing. I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.
Food: Adulteration
Lord Grantchester Excerpts(11 years, 3 months ago)
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Lord De Mauley
My Lords, I do agree and that, indeed, is what is happening.
Lord Grantchester (Lab)
My Lords, this is fraud on a massive scale. It is made easier by this Government’s changes to the structure of regulation, which weakened consumer protection by fragmenting the responsibilities of the Food Standards Agency between different bodies. Will the Government recognise this mistake and revisit the decision?
Lord De Mauley
My Lords, I am glad that the noble Lord has given me the opportunity to answer that question. I have seen no evidence to suggest that the machinery of government changes had any material impact on the response to the horsemeat fraud incident. That incident was fraud on an EU-wide scale and had nothing to do with changes in responsibilities between UK government departments.
Japan: Dolphins
Lord Grantchester Excerpts(11 years, 4 months ago)
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Lord De Mauley
My Lords, we regularly call for Japan to cease its so-called “scientific” whaling programme, as we consider there to be no valid argument for lethal scientific research on whales. As such, we therefore agree with Australian efforts to bring an end to these activities through the ICJ, and we look forward to the judgment in that case, which we expect this year.
Lord Grantchester (Lab)
My Lords, what discussions has the Minister had with colleagues in other European Governments to ensure that dolphins trapped in this hunt and sold for entertainment do not find their way into European aquariums?
Lord De Mauley
My Lords, the issue is indeed of concern to a number of EU member states, and was discussed at the EU CITES management meeting in December. We continue to consider what measures the EU can take. For example, parties to CITES can place a reservation on a species, which means that they are not bound by the CITES controls relating to that species. We will, through the EU, continue to encourage countries such as Japan and others to withdraw their reservations on, for example, whale species.
Water Bill
Lord Grantchester Excerpts(11 years, 5 months ago)
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The Earl of Lytton
My Lords, I welcome the opportunity to debate this important point. I declare a professional interest in aspects of planning. The question of planning policy and its co-runner, which it informs, development control, raises some important issues on the ground. These need to go beyond the question of new-build developments alone. I do not know whether the noble Lord, Lord Shipley, intended to address just new-build developments but if he did, perhaps I could digress into the area of what we do about some of the existing building stock, which I flagged up at Second Reading. I alluded then to the desirability of making conditions concerning the containing of surface water run-off within existing individual properties, as opposed to just allowing each to discharge it on to the next property downstream.
I wondered whether this might be made retroactive to a degree, perhaps by requiring extensions and alterations to existing properties to incorporate, in appropriate circumstances, a surface water attenuation scheme. I do not believe that this is a general requirement but there are precedents. For instance, if you renew the roof covering of your house, you are often obliged to upgrade the insulation of the roof of your property. There is an analogy there. Surface water attenuation on a per property basis could also be combined not only with water conservation, but with habitat-friendly outcomes. The same thing could apply to the principle of reducing vulnerability of the property itself—a point made earlier by the noble Baroness, Lady Parminter—in connection with quite ordinary adaptations that can be put in place to prevent properties being so severely affected by flooding, should it happen. There is also the question of community-based schemes to protect groups of buildings. I referred to the Lower Don Valley scheme, but there are others.
One of the things that has come out—sorry, that is probably a bad term—or rather, has arisen recently is the question of making foul drainage systems safer, so that if flooding does happen, flood water does not turn into a solution of dilute sewage, adding health hazards to all the other problems of clean-up. That requires special measures, not least because shared sewer pipes that are on private property but are ultimately connected to a public sewer are now the responsibility of the statutory sewage undertaker. I have this terrible feeling that they have no idea of the routes, the condition or the materials of half of these pipes for which they have now inherited responsibility. They have my sympathy in that respect.
The noble Lord, Lord Krebs, referred to building on flood plains. My only point there is that protecting properties so that they are themselves secure against flooding is one thing. Transferring risks to properties elsewhere is self-defeating. My difficulty is that I am not sure that a holistic approach is taken to dealing with the totality of flood plains. Often, these may be in more than one local planning authority area, so there may be problems of co-ordination. With regard to that, the noble Lord, Lord Shipley, referred to the competence and capacity of local government and the noble Baroness, Lady Parminter, referred to reductions in Environment Agency budgets that might affect its ability to have this overarching, integrated view. I worry about that. It is vital that the sort of report that the noble Lord, Lord Shipley, has in mind covers all these aspects. If we start leaving bits out, we shall be no further forward in a few years’ time than we are now.
I draw attention to the catchment area management plan referred to by the noble Lord, Lord Campbell-Savours. I have some experience of this, not all of it edifying. In at least one instance, I found that half the catchment area concerned, the upstream half, was missing from the plan. The only fact that I could ascertain was that the owner of the missing part was the National Trust. I am unsure what conclusions I should draw from that, but if you have a catchment management plan, the boundary of it has to be drawn along the watershed. No other boundary is possible. The simple arithmetic that was drummed into me, probably from O-level geography onwards, has not escaped me. Making up rules to suit as one goes along will not wash. I am sorry for that terminology as well.
Some time ago, I attended a professional lecture on restoring part of southern Exmoor to a peat bog so that it would hold more water and release it more slowly into the River Barle and the River Exe systems. It had something to do with pumping and repumping water back into Wimbleball reservoir, which I shall not go into. I nicknamed the scheme the “Exmoor sponge”. I do not think anyone else has used that term. There is nothing wrong with such projects, but if they do not have durable management structures that are proof against misuse for commercial objectives, neglect because of spending cuts, simply being forgotten, or participant landowners deciding that there are better land uses that they would rather adopt, they will fail. There need to be more durable ways of dealing with these things. That is the sum total of the points that I wish to make. The last of them probably goes a bit beyond the amendment proposed by the noble Lord, Lord Shipley, but it was worth mentioning in the context of what was said by the noble Lord, Lord Campbell-Savours.
Lord Grantchester (Lab)
My Lords, the amendment would set up a review of recent outcomes of planning policy in terms of flood risk for new developments. It has received widespread support around the Committee.
The noble Lord, Lord Moynihan, has already highlighted how the market will change following recent events. In view of the terrible situation that has resulted from recent weather events in Somerset and the Thames Valley, which may well trigger a wide-ranging review of flood risk policy, it makes sense to ask why there has been more building on low-lying and flood risk areas in the past four years, even allowing for the guidance to which the Minister has already referred today. There has been plenty of notice since 2007 that not all property in areas that might be developed would be eligible for flood insurance. Recent floods have highlighted that there may be errors in the guidance. Nor have successful protection measures been achieved.
Why has planning allowed development to take place against a background of increased perception of flooding potential following the floods in 2007 and in 2012? As the Government, the Environment Agency and planning authorities—indeed, the whole country—will be reassessing flood defences and expenditure, a review of where we are now would make eminent sense.
I was struck by the comments of the noble Lord, Lord Shipley, on the cumulative development effect, which would be worth of the attention of the Environment Agency. The amendment has also prompted some interesting suggestions from my noble friend Lord Campbell-Savours, so it is worthy of further assessment by the Government.
Baroness Northover (LD)
My Lords, we strongly support the intention behind this amendment. The importance of managing the impact of flooding has been brought into very sharp focus recently, and my noble friend has made a cogent case for ensuring that all those involved, whether builders, local councils, inspectors or national organisations, are fulfilling what is required of them in terms of capacity and performance in reducing flood risk.
My noble friends Lord Shipley and Lady Parminter made the case for a review of planning policy delivery. Planning policy for flooding is set out in the National Planning Policy Framework. The framework was published by the Department for Communities and Local Government in March 2012 following extensive public consultation and is supported by practice guidance. It sets strict tests to protect people and property from flooding, which all local councils must follow. We have been very clear that where these tests are not met, new development should not be allowed.
The framework states that councils should plan the location of new development to avoid areas of flood risk where possible. Only if no sites are available in areas of lower risk of flooding can local councils even begin to consider whether to allow development in areas where there is a higher risk. For logical reasons, this is known in planning terminology as the sequential test. Where the sequential test has shown that it is not possible, consistent with wider sustainability objectives, to locate in an area with a lower risk of flooding, then—depending on the flood risk—a second stringent test must be met before a development can go ahead. This is called the exception test, which provides a very strong safeguard. To pass the exception test, you must show that the development provides wider benefits to the community that outweigh the flood risk and that it will be safe for its lifetime without increasing flood risk elsewhere—which was another point that noble Lords flagged up. Where possible, the development will reduce flood risk overall, such as through new flood defences. If there is a risk of flooding, a planning application has to be supported by a site-specific flood risk assessment. This is important because, where there is a risk of flooding, councils should give the go-ahead to new development only where, following the sequential and, if required, the exception tests, it can be demonstrated that what is to be built is flood resilient and resistant, and, as necessary, includes safe access and escape routes. Quite simply, in terms of flood risk, if there are better sites for developments, or developments demonstrated to be necessary are not made safe, they should not be permitted.
Lord Grantchester
“Flood Reinsurance Scheme: commencement
(1) The Secretary of State may by order (the “commencement order”) appoint a day on which section 51 is to come into force.
(2) An order under subsection (1)—
(a) shall be made by statutory instrument; and(b) may not be made unless a draft has been laid before and approved by a resolution of each House of Parliament.(3) The Secretary of State may only make an order under subsection (1) if a Flood Reinsurance Scheme national database has been established.
(4) Any Flood Reinsurance Scheme national database must—
(a) be accessible by the public;(b) outline a property’s risk of flooding; and(c) indicate if the property is covered by the Flood Reinsurance Scheme.”
Lord Grantchester
My Lords, the amendment concerns information on the flood reinsurance scheme and would clarify that regulations will be brought forward to set the date of the commencement, and that Parliament will have approved by affirmative procedure the requirements on insurers of the scheme. Most critically, the proposed new clause would ensure that when these important Flood Re provisions come into effect, the database will have been established, as defined in Clause 61, with the relevant information in the right form as specified in subsection (4) of the proposed new clause. Subsection (4) of the proposed new clause says that the database must be accessible to everyone, and must allow them to check whether or not the property with which they are concerned is covered by the Flood Re scheme, and what the risk of the property flooding is.
I know that all noble Lords in the Chamber today share my heartfelt sympathies for those in Somerset and the Thames Valley who have been struggling to deal with these awful floods, and hope that this Flood Re scheme will make sure that people are able to get affordable and accessible insurance in future. The importance of the amendment is that it would provide information to someone buying a property as to whether their prospective purchase is at risk of flooding and, if so, if they will be able to get insurance under the scheme. It does not make sense that a family looking for a house in Somerset, the Thames Valley or elsewhere would be unaware of whether or not it was covered. It would add particular difficulties for them when it came to budgeting for the years ahead. It would be essential information when it came to looking for a mortgage. Lenders will require insurance on property to be able to advance money for the purchase, and will want to know whether or not the costs associated with the property are going to be high and whether insurance is affordable.
The terrible events of recent weeks show how important it is that the public should have confidence that the database is accessible, and that they will be able to access that part of the database to which insurance companies also have access. While the objective of the amendment is to emphasise transparency of and accessibility to information, including mapping, it also highlights the necessity for clarity on flood risk. The Minister may respond that subsection (4)(c) of the proposed new clause is opaque and refers only to property in the scheme. Yet the scheme must manage the situation and a transition over the period of the scheme. There must be a planned and collaborative withdrawal of the Flood Re scheme, and not a precipitate change into market conditions.
At present, it has been expressed that there is a lack of clarity concerning elements of property tenure and the mapping of risk in relation to the scheme, following changes made by the Environment Agency to information and websites in relation to the proposal of the scheme. The Minister has offered today to meet Members of the Committee concerning properties, and the scheme’s treatment of them following repeated flooding occasions. It is vital that the database is accessible as any updating occurs.
Amendment 161A, in the name of the noble Lord, Lord Oxburgh, also seems to me a good idea: it would bring the flood risks of properties further to the attention of householders. It is vital that clarity on flood insurance on a database is accessible throughout the period and is made a basic principle of the scheme. I beg to move.
Lord Oxburgh
Amendment 161A scarcely needs any detailed discussion: we have spoken this afternoon on a number of occasions of the importance of getting information to people. Certainly, this was a plea that came to us through many of the verbal representations that we had when we saw various interested groups in the lead-up to the discussion of this Bill. I simply offer this proposal to use council tax demands as a simple and almost cost-free way of disseminating information very widely, reminding people on an annual basis of their vulnerability to flood. It could serve as a portal to the various schemes and proposals that we discussed this afternoon.
Baroness Northover
As I said in my response, we are putting the onus on home owners to seek the information—and I have indicated where that can be acquired—rather than to receive the information, as the noble Lord suggests. I appreciate that this may not be quite as strong as he would wish, but nevertheless there are a number of different sources for this information and a number of ways in which property owners, when they are ceded to Flood Re, will be informed as to their status. If they make a claim they will obviously be informed that that is the case. Therefore there are a number of ways in which they will receive information, even if it is not quite as comprehensive as the noble Lord might wish.
Lord Grantchester
My Lords, I recognise the noble Baroness’s comments in welcoming many of my remarks. She maintains that there is a system in place concerning flood risk data, and I do not for a minute doubt that she is correct about that. While I am reassured, nevertheless I am concerned that people should be able to undertake their own research without the cost of expensive searches. My noble friend Lord Campbell-Savours has further argued that case. I suggest that those expensive searches may well occur further along the process of a purchase. Nevertheless, people these days are very much concerned that they are able to undertake easily, quickly and readily their own research. I will consider further what the noble Baroness said, but meanwhile I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.