Pension Schemes Bill

Lord Fuller Excerpts

Committee stage
Monday 12th January 2026 Grand Committee

[Lord Davies of Brixton (Lab)]

It is a pleasure to be here. Although for a while I was feeling a bit lonely, I very much welcome my noble friends; what we do not make up in numbers, I am sure my friends will more than make up for in the quality of their contributions. I declare an interest as a fellow of the Institute and Faculty of Actuaries.

It is worth at this stage spelling out that I have spent a lifetime advising people about pensions. I was the TUC’s pensions officer for a number of years. I was also a partner in a leading firm of consulting actuaries, and I worked for a number of years with a scheme actuaries certificate undertaking scheme valuations. In terms of sheer experience, I can fairly say that this is unique to noble Members of this House. I will not go on at length on future occasions, except when it is directly relevant.

The noble Viscount, Lord Younger of Leckie, declared his intention to avoid repeating a Second Reading speech—it is arguable as to whether he achieved that intention—but, in a sense, I welcome the opportunity to look at the Bill as a whole. While I support the Bill and I support my noble friends—there are some really good measures in here—the text underlying the opposition amendment suggests that we have a pensions system in chronically bad condition.

It suggests that returns are inadequate, that the system is fragmented and that it lacks transparency, with people unable to assess what they are getting. It provides inadequate communications. It is inconsistent across the different forms of provision. It prevents, or makes hard, innovative and flexible solutions to the problems that are faced. It needs to provide greater clarity for employers. It currently does not achieve responsible and innovative use of pension surpluses. To me, this suggests a system at risk of chronic failure.

To be honest, I accept those criticisms because underlying this system is the personal pension revolution introduced by the Conservative Government 40 years ago, which has proved to be unfit for purpose. We are having to make all these changes because of the failure of the system that the Conservative Government introduced. We need these changes because personal pensions did not work out. Collective provision is the answer to decent pension provision, and the Bill supports and develops collective provision and moves across this idea that everyone can have their own pot which they look after for themselves. I oppose the amendment and look forward to further discussions on the individual issues as they arise.

[Lord Fuller (Con)]

My Lords, it is always a pleasure to follow the noble Lord, Lord Davies of Brixton. He reminds me of that old joke about the dinner of actuaries where they are all complaining that everyone is living longer and it is getting worse.

I agree with this purpose clause, although I am surprised that it does not establish the balance between risk and reward, where pensions help people build secure futures by taking appropriate qualified risks. The pensions industry seems obsessed with risk minimisation, but without any form of risk there can be no reward; even cash is at risk from inflation.

The success of this Bill and why we need a purpose clause is to be grounded in how it makes it easier for people to take personal responsibility, to save for their futures, themselves and their families and to make their savings secure while permitting appropriate and manageable returns and providing risk capital to grow the economy. Inspiring people to save for their future is important, and pensions are long-term savings plans. Long-term returns dynamised through dividends, and boosted by employer contributions in many cases, are the best way to set yourselves up for later life.

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[Lord Davies of Brixton (Lab)]

This group is about asset pools in the Local Government Pension Scheme. I had not intended to intervene on this group, but I want to comment on the remarks made by the noble Viscount, Lord Younger, in introducing this group of amendments on the Local Government Pension Scheme. I am relatively agnostic about asset pools. I am not sure that I am totally convinced by the Government’s line that big is necessarily beautiful, but I am open to that debate.

In introducing this group, the noble Viscount set it in the context of a large group of amendments introduced on much wider issues around the Local Government Pension Scheme than were originally expected—it was really just about investment in the Local Government Pension Scheme—and at a very late stage. It makes no difference to me personally, but fundamental questioning of the structure, running and management of the Local Government Pension Scheme was introduced at such short notice; we found about it only on Thursday or Friday. I can live with that, but I think that it was a little unfair to the people working in and running the scheme suddenly to produce this level of uncertainty. That was unwise. When you want to discuss these things, you start talking to the people involved first, but it is my understanding that it came out of the blue and everyone was totally surprised. Obviously, the issue was always there for discussion, so the fact that it has come up is not a surprise, but doing things at this moment and in this way was unfortunate and is causing problems for those trying to provide the pensions.

I believe that the fundamental premise introduced by the noble Viscount is wrong. The Local Government Pension Scheme is a notable success. Rather than setting up inquiries to discover what went wrong, we should be inquiring about what it got right, because it provides good pensions for a large number of people providing essential services. The average pension in the Local Government Pension Scheme is £5,000; that is because the scheme provides pensions mainly for people on low pay. It provides good pensions for people—often, for women with part-time jobs. It does so in a way whereby, in the forthcoming valuations—as I will expand on and discuss at greater length when we get on to the eighth group of amendments, because that is where the substantive discussion will take place—it faces a better record than private sector occupational pension schemes. We should be looking at its success and not, as the noble Viscount argued, the difficulties and failures.

[Lord Fuller (Con)]

My Lords, once again, I follow the noble Lord, Lord Davies of Brixton. I wish, perhaps uncharacteristically, to associate myself with many of his comments. I support the thrust of Amendment 2, and offer wider support for the other amendments in this group.

My qualifications to speak on this Bill as far as the LGPS elements are concerned is that I led a local authority for 20 years and have been a member of the Norfolk Pension Fund’s Pensions Committee since 2007. I have also been a member of the Local Government Pension Scheme’s advisory board since its inception in 2014. I am a past member of the fire service scheme’s advisory board, as well as a trustee of a number of private schemes. I also benefit from my own SSIP.

Today is about the LGPS. It is different, because not many of the public sector schemes have money put aside for their members’ retirements—although I accept that the scheme for MPs is one of them. In aggregate, the LGPS comprises 89 separate schemes cast throughout the entirety of the four home nations. Collectively, the 2024 scheme census reports a total of 6.7 million members, a third of whom are, directionally speaking, active; a third of whom are deferred; and a third of whom are actually in payment. In 2024, its total assets under management were worth £390 billion; it is much more than that now. These things change but, by whatever measure, the LGPS is the world’s fourth-largest or fifth-largest pension scheme.

When I came on to the Norfolk board in 2007, assets under management were £1.8 billion. They are now more than £6 billion. I echo the comment of the noble Lord, Lord Davies, that if only the UK economy had risen in that proportion. The LGPS delivers significant value. The typical member is a 47 year-old woman earning about £18,000 a year, for whom the pension is, as the noble Lord, Lord Davies, said, about £5,000. It is incredibly efficient. Operational costs are about half those of typical unfunded schemes. In the Norfolk scheme, of which I am a member, the cost per member is less than £20 per head. I accept that other schemes have costs higher than that, but it is an enviable record. We have saved for our future, but you would not know any of this from the thrust of the Bill and its overbearing tinkering.

What is the problem to be solved here? After some difficult times when interest rates were low, most schemes are now fully funded. It is a British success story that will be undermined by fettering the independence of schemes to make the best long-term investment decisions for their members and local taxpayers, muddling accountabilities by divorcing assets from liabilities and introducing new conflicts of interest. That cannot be right. The success has been delivered despite being buffeted by complications such as McCloud, the pre-2015 and post-2015 schemes, GMP, the rule of 75, dashboards, changing rules on inheritance and divorce and all the other things that happen when you have the best interests of 6.7 million workers in mind. The truth is that the LGPS is a million miles away from the fat cattery that the popular newspapers would have you believe.

That brings me on to the substance of Amendment 2. I have the greatest concerns that the fiduciary duty contemplated to members in this Bill, fairness to the taxpayer and ham-fisted interference from a merry-go-round of Local Government Finance Ministers will weaken this jewel in our economic crown. Taken together, subsections (2) to (8) promote the notion that the government nanny knows best, with broad powers down to the level of detail to determine the fine structure of the pooled schemes. This approach has already damaged the scheme for no good reason. The exemplar ACCESS band has been told to disband. It was doing a good job. With nearly £40 billion-worth of assets under management, it rented the best globally viewed FCA-qualified professionals in the City of London, one of the world’s top three financial centres. Now it is being forced to join a pool of other authorities headquartered miles away in the provinces, miles away from the cut and thrust and that leading intellectual property. There is a provision in subsection (7) that these pools should take steps to get FCA accreditation—I suppose we should be grateful for that—but these pools have no business even being on the battlefield until they are FCA qualified. Thus is the muddle of this Bill. In essence, this enforced uniformity means that star strikers have been replaced by subs from the reserve team. A global success story has been weakened with the risk of lower returns for members.

Moving on, this Bill talks about local government members, but the scheme is not about just councils. In the Norfolk scheme, which I know best, there are eight principal councils, but we now have more than 500 sponsoring employers—parish councils, care homes, catering companies, youth and social workers, classroom assistants and charities. Each has different scale, covenant strength and longevity. It is complex. Yet ministerial interference wants to shove them all into a one-size scheme that cannot fit all. In subsection (5) we see touching faith in the judgment of the experts and regulators who forced private schemes into LDIs and ruined them. I do not know why the Pensions Regulator and GAD are not on the Government’s list. I suppose we should be grateful that they are not. This whole Bill promulgates pensions groupthink on the altar of reduced risk and lower returns.

I will deal with Amendment 5 later because it talks about investment and there is a later group for that. I have heard the Minister say that bigger is better. Here again, I align myself with the noble Lord, Lord Davies. It is the thrust and the theme of this Bill more widely. Indeed, I heard the noble Baroness at the Dispatch Box lionise the Ontario teachers’ scheme in the week that it was rinsed for £1 billion in the collapse of Thames Water.

We see in Clause 2 that there will be directions as to what things can be invested in. When they tried that in Sweden, the public schemes lost another £1 billion in the Northvolt disaster, where virtue-signalling political investment directions made the members and taxpayers poorer. The harsh lesson is that the schemes become the plaything of meddlesome Ministers to require or prohibit, or to opine on lofty ideas, but without the responsibility or accountability of paying out. It is wrong.

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[Captain of the King’s Bodyguard of the Yeomen of the Guard and Deputy Chief Whip (Baroness Wheeler) (Lab)]

Order. The noble Lord can see that he has reached his 10 minutes.

[Lord Fuller (Con)]

I am coming to a conclusion. I spent 20 years at the coalface with some of the brightest and smartest professionals from around the world. If we persist with subsections (2) to (8), we will be further in hock to a Treasury that has demonstrated that it does not understand the interplay between revenue and capital, or the underlying principles of a capitalist economy. If it ain’t broke, don’t fix it. Now is not the time to meddle in the LGPS.

[Baroness Altmann (Non-Afl)]

My Lords, I will be brief. I have added my name to Amendments 2, 5 and 6. I support the thrust of these amendments. I agree wholeheartedly with the noble Lord, Lord Davies, that the local government pension schemes have been successful. One reason is that they have been able to take higher risks—in other words, earn higher returns—than many of the traditional private sector pension schemes, which were so constrained and had the problem of LDI.

I have concerns about the cost to taxpayers because the Bill effectively suggests that, by reducing the number of asset pools for local government pension schemes from eight to six, somehow the returns will magically improve and the Government will be able to direct local authority pension schemes into the right place. As we have heard from so many noble Lords, it does not appear to me that the Government are best placed to direct where people invest.

With £402 billion in these schemes at March 2025, with about a quarter of council tax being spent on contributions into them and with so many areas of the economy needing investment, it is right that we expect local authority schemes to be able to support the local—and, potentially, the national—economy. The Government might well be tempted to turn this £400 billion into a sovereign wealth fund, given that taxpayers at the national scale underwrite local authority pension schemes—they do not belong to the PPF; they do not pay a PPF level. If a council goes bust, taxpayers bail it out and the pensions are still paid. I argue that, unless the Government want to do that—

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[Lord Fuller (Con)]

May I gently invite the Minister to review the comment he made about the ACCESS pool voluntarily asking to disband itself and then, if necessary, write to me afterwards and make a correction on the record? My understanding is that the ACCESS pool did not wish to be disbanded and, in fact, the response to the fit-for-the-future consultation was that the ACCESS pool’s

“proposal does not meet the Government’s vision for the future of the LGPS”.

There was compulsion; it was not voluntary.

[Lord Katz (Lab)]

I had better write to the noble Lord. I am afraid I do not have the details of that particular case to hand, but it is our understanding that it was coming from a voluntary perspective. But rather than speculating—I do not have the details here—I am very happy to write to him with more detail.

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[Baroness Sherlock (Lab)]

My Lords, I am grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Sharkey, for introducing his amendments, and to all noble Lords who have spoken. This gives us an opportunity to talk about how best to balance the way we structure matters between primary and secondary legislation. However, the proposals from the noble Lord, Lord Sharkey, would significantly expand the way Parliament scrutinises regulations made under the Bill. I understand why he would want to do that, but his proposals would introduce a level of rigidity into the process that is not only unusual in this area but obviously would be markedly more elaborate than the Bill currently provides for.

The super-affirmative procedure is generally reserved for exceptional circumstances, such as legislative reform orders or remedial orders under the Human Rights Act. I am not aware of any examples of it being applied to pensions regulations, but I am very open to being advised on that. In our view, it would be disproportionate to the nature of the powers conferred by the Bill, and I will explain why.

I will look first at Clause 1. The coalition Government introduced the Public Service Pensions Act 2013. Through that, Parliament established the way it would go about governing the making of scheme regulations. It was a comprehensive and well-tested scrutiny framework. It still operates today, including where new powers were created, for example, by the Public Service Pensions and Judicial Offices Act 2022. The framework created by that Act provides extensive safeguards, including mandatory consultation, enhanced consultation if changes have or might have retrospective effect, and Treasury consent. Introducing a substantially more onerous procedure for regulations under Clause 1, as proposed by Amendment 3, would sit uneasily alongside that established approach.

There are also practical considerations. Administering authorities and asset pool companies are preparing for regulations to be introduced shortly after the Bill has passed its parliamentary scrutiny. The Government have already published draft regulations on the LGPS measure. They were open to public consultation, which has recently closed. Adding a 30-day pre-scrutiny stage through the super-affirmative procedure would clearly extend that timetable and risk creating more uncertainty at a critical moment for those involved in implementing this.

Amendment 221 would allow either House to require that any affirmative regulations made under this Bill be subject to the super-affirmative process. That would already represent a significant expansion of parliamentary involvement compared with the long-standing approach to pensions.

Amendment 222 would go further still. It does not simply describe how the super-affirmative procedure would operate in this context; it would create a new statutory scrutiny process, more prescriptive and more inflexible than the mechanisms Parliament has used to date for pension regulations—or indeed most regulations. It would require a fixed 30-day scrutiny period in any case where either House decided to impose the new procedure. It would mandate a committee report, even for minor or technical regulations, and would prevent regulations being laid until Ministers had responded formally to all representations. The result would be a significant departure from the flexible way Parliament normally manages delegated legislation.

I hear the concerns the noble Lord has expressed about the way Parliament deals with secondary legislation, but scrutiny procedures are normally determined by the House through its practices and Standing Orders. Replacing those arrangements with a rigid statutory framework of this kind for this Bill would set a far-reaching precedent for delegated legislation more broadly, extending well beyond the requirements of this Bill.

I would submit that such a process would also make it harder for Parliament to focus scrutiny on the most significant instruments and would slow down the making of regulations in areas where timely and predictable implementation is crucial for funds, administering authorities and scheme members.

A certain amount of this comes down to whether the Committee accepts that the level of delegated powers is appropriate. I fully understand that the noble Lord does not. I disagree and I will tell him why. In answer to the noble Viscount, Lord Younger of Leckie, in the previous group I said that the Government do not regard this as a framework or skeleton Bill, because it sets out clearly the policy decisions and parameters within which the delegated powers must operate. The Bill brings together a broad package of reforms. Many of those reforms build on long-established statutory regimes set out by previous Governments—Governments of all persuasions, as well as previous Labour Governments—in which Parliament has historically set the policy in primary legislation and provided for the detailed measures that will apply to schemes to be set out in regulations.

The noble Baroness, Lady Neville-Rolfe, asked for a full list of delegated powers. My department produced a very detailed delegated powers memorandum, which went through all the delegated powers at some length and in some detail, explaining what they meant. I would be very happy to direct the noble Baroness to that if that would be helpful.

One of the key questions the noble Lord, Lord Sharkey, asked was: why are there so many delegated powers? Our view is that this is not out of kilter with other similar transformative pension Bills. We counted 119 delegated powers covering 11 major topics plus some smaller topics. For example, in the Pension Schemes Act 2021, there were almost 100 delegated powers covering three major topics. In the Pensions Act 1995, which was a transformative Bill, there were approximately 150 delegated powers.

This Bill brings together a number of distinct pensions measures in a single legislative vehicle, many of which amend or build on existing regimes that are already heavily reliant on secondary legislation for their detailed operation. In many areas, we are simply reflecting a similar framework to previous pensions legislation or amending it, so there is continuity rather than a step change.

A crucial point I want to lodge is that pensions policy is not delivered directly by government. Implementation depends on trustees, pension schemes, pension providers, administrators and regulators who have to design systems, processes and administration that work in practice. That level of detailed operational design can begin only once there is sufficient certainty that legislation will proceed. As noble Lords who have worked in or with industry will recognise, before there is sufficient certainty, industry cannot reasonably commit the significant time and resources needed to work through complex delivery arrangements where the legal basis may still change or not materialise. Delegated powers therefore allow the Government to set the policy framework in primary legislation and then work with those responsible for delivery to ensure that the technical detail is workable in practice, rather than attempting to prescribe detailed operational rules in primary legislation. That reflects established pensions practice and good lawmaking in a complex and fast-moving regulatory environment.

[Lord Fuller (Con)]

I am conscious that this is not the Minister’s area of specialism, because we are talking about the Local Government Pension Scheme, which is under MHCLG, not the DWP, so I do not expect her to be fully up to speed with this part of the Bill. Members of the various pensions committees of the administrating committees—by and large within county councils, but there are some joint arrangements as well—are legally not trustees. I accept that what the Minister said is correct for the generality of private schemes and some other schemes, but I do not believe it is for the LGPS. I do not expect her to respond immediately, but it is important. It is a shame that we do not have an MHCLG Minister here, because this scheme is the closest we have to a national wealth fund and we are transacting this business without the appropriate expertise here. However, clarity on that is important.

[Baroness Sherlock (Lab)]

I was going to say that I am grateful to the noble Lord, but I am not sure that I am, really. I am sure he has not missed the fact that the amendments put forward by the noble Lord, Lord Sharkey, do not apply simply to the LGPS provisions in the Bill. They would have widespread application throughout the Bill and implications beyond it. I say that they would have all these implications and I am talking about trustees because they would have a significant impact on the way that all those actors in the pension space would be able to engage in future.

In the past, I have heard people around the House criticise Governments for making decisions at the centre without engaging with those in industry and business who have to deliver them. I know that, if the Government had given huge amounts of certainty and left nothing out there, the criticism would simply be the reverse of what we have heard today. We have to find a balance. The Government believe we have found the right balance. Some Members of the Committee will disagree. I have looked carefully into this, and I am defending the balance that the Government have come to, but I accept that if noble Lords disagree, we will have to come back to this in due course.

We think the existing framework already strikes the right balance between scrutiny and practicality, enabling Parliament to oversee policy development while allowing essential regulations to be made in a timely and orderly way. In the light of my comments, particularly about the proportionality of this, its comparability with previous pensions legislation and the degree to which it is in continuity with the way pensions legislation has traditionally been made by successive Governments, I hope the noble Lord will feel able to withdraw his amendment.

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[Baroness Altmann (Non-Afl)]

My Lords, I added my name to the amendment tabled by the noble Lord, Lord Davies, and I endorse his remarks. There is a clear need for social housing and I would be grateful if the Minister could explain to the Committee the impact of asset pooling and whether it perhaps interferes with funds from local authority pension schemes being invested in social housing.

There is a clear need across the country for improvements in the housing stock. Local areas can know what the need for build-to-rent might be or the need for social housing that is disability friendly or friendly for an ageing population. These areas are not necessarily the focus of some of the private sector housebuilders. Using this resource to improve the lives of local residents—perhaps it would improve the futures of pension scheme members themselves—as well as areas around the country, would be important and I would be grateful to hear the Minister’s views.

I also support Amendment 12, which was so well introduced by the noble Baroness, Lady Bowles. It is essential that the resources in both local and national pension schemes are invested to benefit local and national growth. The diversification benefits of investing in areas much wider than just the local area are clear in terms of using pension fund assets to boost long-term growth, which is an aim the Government rightly have.

I know the Government want to use pension fund assets to benefit Britain, and it seems that local authority pension schemes offer an ideal opportunity for that. If these asset pools can invest more broadly than just the local area, and local authority pension schemes are encouraged to have a diversification spread across the country, I hope that would be a significant improvement and a tangible benefit from the funding that goes into these schemes and from the strong position they have built.

[Lord Fuller (Con)]

My Lords, I want to focus in this group on the nature of local investment. Once again I find myself in broad agreement with the noble Lord, Lord Davies; I am not quite sure whether I should be concerned or he should be.

Clause 2 of the Bill places a duty on LGPS administering authorities to co-operate with strategic authorities, which are defined in the Bill, to

“identify and develop appropriate investment opportunities”

in relation to local investments.

The Bill defines what a local investment is and encourages co-operation, but does not define what constitutes appropriate investment opportunities, how co-operation is to be structured and what the core governance is. Of course, governance leads to covenant strength—in turn to coupon and thus to viability, so this is quite important—and the metrics for assessing local impact. We need further explanation of the duty to co-operate between LGPS authorities, not just within the pool but possibly elsewhere.

If you restrict investment opportunities just to a local area, as other noble Lords have said, it leads you to concentration risk, which is bad for two reasons. First, it is inherently more risky, but it also locks other investors out of the closed shop that then exists between the local pool and its home strategic authority. I have to ask the Minister, who I assume is going to respond here: why would the Government want to make it harder for a northern pension fund to invest in the south—or, probably the other way around, why would they make it difficult for a southern pool to be able to invest in a northern opportunity? As we heard in the previous group, there are provisions in the Bill that will prevent a scheme being involved in any more than one pool.

For “co-operation” I sometimes read “connivance”, and that can never be a good thing when you get a statutory and enforced failure of the separation of duties between those selling investment opportunities and those buying them. Thinking more widely, we know that there is a national infrastructure bank, which is to morph into the National Wealth Fund—I am possibly not the only noble Lord to have been invited to a reception it is holding in our House on 28 January. But the clue is in the name: it is the National Wealth Fund, not the local one. So, where might the order of priority be in the funding and financing here: national or local? When we think about local, we need to have a deep understanding, if we are to start making these investments, of greenfield versus brownfield, and I am concerned about the capacity and capability of funds to manage greenfield development, especially under pooling. That is another perverse consequence of getting too big.

This is where I align myself with the noble Lord, Lord Davies, because during the passage of the Planning and Infrastructure Act, I proposed amendments so that mayoral development corporations could have the financial instruments to go to bodies such as local pension funds and issue debt, so we could build affordable housing or new towns and so on. I divided the House, and noble Lords on the government side defeated us. So, now that the principle of development corporations for the purposes of new towns or affordable housing has been taken off the table, can the noble Lord say how they intend to legislate to enable these local investments with strategic authorities? By their votes they have shown that they are dead against that.

However, there is more, because I am very anxious about the definition of a “responsible investment”, which is in Clause 2(4). Clearly, nobody wants irresponsible investment, but what is responsible? Do we prohibit investments in alcohol, tobacco or sugar, or in supermarkets because they sell the sugar, tobacco and alcohol, or in arms, oil or bookmakers? I have seen it all before. Everybody has an opinion, and some beneficiary members sometimes think they own the scheme. There is much virtue signalling to be had, where long-term returns take a back seat, which results in fewer returns and less business ideas with solid, repeatable cash flows, and the poor member and the taxpayer ultimately suffer from the vanity.

I have seen with my own eyes the letter writing from these people who purport to tell pension committee members and trustees what they should invest in, but where does it end? It ends in the limits of the constellation of investment ideas, so that everybody else ends up chasing the same stocks in a value-destroying bubble, creating systemic risks when everyone does the same thing. It also ends up with the so-called ethical investment funds that disproportionately have gone into ESG investments, putting those ahead of returns, being the lemons in the market. Yet that is what the Bill encourages. There should be no role for ministerial direction in the type of investments. If we want a dynamic economy, you do not create it by wrapping the flow of capital in red tape.

If the Government wish to make infrastructure more investible, whether nationally or locally, they need to create investible opportunities. I know that toll roads are not popular and that a flood defence does not pay rent, but the Government would be better employed creating new asset classes where desirable investments can be matched with long-term returns, rather than herding them into the same old asset classes.

I realise that this is a probing amendment, but I accept that the Government should seek to promote the alignment between pension funds, affordable housing, new towns and other investment opportunities. However, by their actions, they put every obstacle in the way. Can the Minister say what steps will be taken, presumably when we get to Report, to breathe fresh life into the possibility, which was contemplated in the Planning and Infrastructure Act, whereby local bodies may issue local bonds for debt or whatever else, so that we can get the flow of capital to make this country richer, rather than just herding into the same old asset classes that we compete with everybody else for?

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[Lord Davies of Brixton (Lab)]

This is really a debate by proxy on Section 40 and new Section 28C; I am sure that we can all look forward to a repeat of this discussion.

I am not against mandation in principle; it is entirely reasonable for a Government to adopt that approach. What worries me here is that, for some reason, they are putting investment classes into statute. That is just wrong. The point here is broader than the one just made by the noble Baronesses. To pick out sectors of investment, the Government are giving their imprimatur to these particular classes of investment; however, they will go wrong at some stage, and the Government will be on the hook for having advocated for them. I am against having any of these references in the Bill. I do not want to see anything added; I want them to be taken out.

[Lord Fuller (Con)]

My Lords, now I am really worried—every time I have followed the noble Lord, Lord Davies of Brixton, I have tried to amplify the points he has made.

I congratulate the noble Baroness, Lady Bowles, on her masterful exposition of a technical piece of detail; she brought it down to the ground and made it alive. She put her finger on it when many of us have not been able to put our finger on what makes us so uncomfortable about the Bill. We know that it is not right. When you get meddlesome Ministers fiddling around in stuff where they do not really know what they are doing, there is not just co-operation but—as the noble Baroness exposed—a connivance and a cartel. She explained how those two things have led to conflicts of interest; there will be a lot of Cs in the words I am about to use. It is anti-competitive, and it has restricted choice.

The noble Baroness has wedged open the door because, later on in the Bill, there are provisions—I will not defer to them too much now—for the existing operators to lock out new entrants. I was instinctively uncomfortable with that but, now, I am worried because there seems to be a guiding hand here to reduce choice, stifle innovation and damage the reputation of the City. I do not think that that was purposeful, but this is what happens when you get a Bill that is so overly complicated and takes people away from saving for their long-term retirement.

I nearly feel sorry for the noble Lord, Lord Katz, because I have never seen such an evisceration. I am sure he is going to defend it and do the best he can. But what the noble Baroness, Lady Bowles, has shown is that it is rather like the Chancellor, who now says she had no idea what was really happening when she put the rates on the pubs. It was a mistake, and she did not have all the information to hand. While I accept that the noble Lord, Lord Davies, has said we will come back to this on another day, I thank the noble Baroness, Lady Bowles, because she has given an opportunity—a breathing space or an air gap—for the Government to now go back to look at this in more detail.

The noble Baroness, Lady Altmann, also laid out the import of this amendment when she said that one-third of all the FTSE 350 is engaged in this. I expect the Minister in winding to say, for a third time, that growth is the number one priority of this Government. Let us hope he does say that because, if he does, he will either accept this amendment here and now, or give an undertaking that, at some stage before we get to this in the main part of the debate, it will be accepted and we can move on.

It is not just casting a shadow over the LGPS and the parts of Yorkshire which are disinvesting; it is accidentally casting a shadow over the City of London, which is the world’s second or third largest financial centre. It must be stopped. I think the noble Baroness, Lady Bowles, has done the Committee and our nation a great service in the last half an hour, and she is to be congratulated for it.

[Viscount Younger of Leckie (Con)]

My Lords, I was due to give a very short speech. It is still short, but it has got slightly longer in terms of the content of this debate. I am particularly grateful to the noble Baronesses, Lady Bowles of Berkhamsted and Lady Altmann, for tabling Amendment 10, which we welcome and which I understand to be a sensible and proportionate safeguarding measure. I want to go a bit further because there were two particularly powerful speeches, in particular that from the noble Baroness, Lady Bowles.

As we read it, the amendment seeks to ensure that investment strategies cannot be used to favour particular investment vehicles over comparable or competing alternatives. In doing so, it would help to guard against strategies becoming a back-door means of directing capital, rather than serving their proper purpose as high-level statements of investment policy.

That distinction matters. Investment strategies should guide objectives, risk appetite and approach and not hardwire specific vehicles or delivery mechanisms into statute or regulation. Preventing the embedding of such preferences also reduces the risk of political or regulatory pressure or—I will use the word—interference, being reflected in investment strategy documents and helps to preserve trustee independence and proper decision-making. Although it is a serious subject, the noble Baroness, Lady Bowles, gave us a succinct, well-argued speech with her bucket wrapper analogy. She gave a hard-hitting speech with some important questions which I hope the Minister will be able to answer.

One issue that has been made clear today, which has arisen in a number of debates, and was encapsulated in this short debate, is the opaqueness of “government direction”. I was very taken by the equally hard-hitting speech from my noble friend Lord Fuller. The confusion—by the way, the C is for confusion, just to add that in—is over the responsibility with the grey areas, notably in respect to the understandings, or not, from the Mansion House Accord and those who were the signatories.

One question to ask is whether those signatories now realise what they have got themselves into, or what their understanding was then and what it is now. I ask that as an open question, particularly in relation to the inclusion or exclusion of different types of investment. The noble Baroness, Lady Altmann, focused particularly on open-ended or close-ended. There is a lot of emphasis here. Most unusually, I was in total agreement with the noble Lord, Lord Davies. I am not sure that that has happened with me in the past.

To conclude, we therefore welcome the intent of Amendment 10. It would be very helpful if the Minister could indicate whether—and if so, how—the Bill as currently drafted already guards against this risk. It is a crucial question and relates to all the questions that have been asked. What assurances can be given that investment strategies will not be used to prescribe or favour particular investment vehicles in practice?