Schools: Cadet Expansion Programme

Lord Freeman Excerpts

Tuesday 18th June 2019 Lords Chamber

[Lord Freeman (Con)]

My Lords, I congratulate my noble friend Lord Lingfield on ensuring that we could have this debate and I pay tribute to the service that he has provided over many years to the Reserve Forces’ and Cadets’ associations comprising the many organisations that make up the group. He has achieved a great deal during his long service by engendering enthusiasm and determination on the part of schools, councils and government to make sure that schools and families encourage children to take up the opportunity of serving in the organisations which train cadets. They provide discipline and a sense of pride and determination to serve the community. Again, I pay tribute to what he has achieved. The noble Lord will probably remember that when I was serving in office with the organisation responsible for the recruitment of cadets, the University of Northampton produced a report entitled the Social Impact Resulting from Expenditure on Cadets. I agree strongly with the at least two other speakers in the debate who said that the social impact of the discipline involved in being trained and making a contribution to society is extremely important.

The social impact that cadet forces deliver is vastly greater than their annual cost. It is the responsibility of all noble Lords in this House who have a direct connection, either elected or unelected, with schools and local authorities to make sure that encouragement is given to those who wish to serve and train to enlist, take the opportunity to travel, be with their fellow students and see the great advantage of serving their country—indirectly, perhaps, but ultimately by joining the Armed Forces. The Armed Forces face a great challenge in making recruitment an attractive proposition. It can be not immediately attractive in terms of pay, opportunities or travel, but in my experience it has been a powerful and positive influence on the lives of the men and women who continue to serve after their school experience.

I agree very much with what the noble Lord, Lord Adonis, said about the wider attraction to state schools of recruiting students to take part in the activities, and about the approach of the teaching profession. Sometimes it has not been all that enthusiastic, but the ultimate gain of that experience easily outweighs the interruption, if you like, to a well-planned school organisation.

We must encourage leadership skills, which can increase proper job prospects. Those leadership skills are very often connected to service in the Armed Forces. The Armed Forces have a particular responsibility to encourage the young people who join the junior organisations to make their own decisions, encourage others and follow the leadership of those in command of that group.

My main concern is the limitation of capacity and the location of camps for young people going out to enjoy training—hopefully in decent surroundings and properly organised and controlled. That capacity is limited by the amount of money available from central government and the Ministry of Defence to support schools, but it is essential. That experience has fired enthusiasm for the Armed Forces among a great number of young people I have come across.

I thank the noble Lord, Lord Lingfield, for his initiative. When he was president I served with him, looking after the Reserve Forces and Cadets organisation between 1999 and 2001, which seems a long time ago. Vocational qualifications are important, and I pay tribute to his contribution.

Defence Review

Lord Freeman Excerpts

Thursday 18th January 2018 Grand Committee

[Lord Freeman (Con)]

My Lords, I wish to raise a very specific point for the Minister, concerning the Royal Navy and maintaining its reach.

Her Majesty’s Ship “Queen Elizabeth”—a carrier—is most welcome, and shortly she will enter into full service, but she needs substantial support. For example, she needs submarines underneath her, destroyers to protect her, frigates and, obviously, supply ships and landing craft et cetera. My main concern about the veritable naval armada that is contained, or implied, by these two great, new carriers is the implication for the existing service provided by the Royal Navy, in terms of protection in the Gulf, South Atlantic and Pacific. How will we maintain the proper servicing for an aircraft carrier—indeed, we will have two, with one always at sea—and how can we maintain our worldwide reach, as I believe we should?

Armed Forces Bill

Lord Freeman Excerpts

Thursday 11th February 2016 Lords Chamber

[Lord Freeman (Con)]

My Lords, I add my congratulations to the three maiden speakers today. They were exemplary. I have some past experience; in the other place one of my tasks for the Conservative Government was to brief those who were making maiden speeches—to a slightly larger House, perhaps, and perhaps suffering greater nerves than those who made the three very professional speeches today. I address my two Conservative colleagues, who are most welcome, and I congratulate them on their most excellent speeches.

I want to make two brief observations and then ask a question of the Minister. My first observation is that the way in which your Lordships consider the legitimacy of Armed Forces operations is rather rigid, in the sense that we are now looking at provisions that were effectively put in place in 2006. After five years there was a review, but it was relatively perfunctory, and we are now looking forward to 2021. That seems to be slightly inflexible. There may be opportunities: for example, Orders in Council could be in due course tabled in your Lordships’ House as a Motion, so there could be some discussion. Compared with the operations in the private sector and the business sector—issues affecting business are debated regularly in your Lordships’ House—it seems to be a rather inflexible procedure. That is simply an observation.

My second observation concerns the liability of reserve forces for prosecution by Armed Forces authorities. I speak as the past president of the Reserve Forces Association. I thank the Minister for his briefing on the subject. A number of your Lordships met the Minister for a briefing on this Bill. The answers that the Minister very kindly gave at that briefing were, to my mind, very satisfactory, but there is some doubt, and I shall continue to monitor it. When Reserve Forces are off duty—they may be travelling to their depot, for example—there may be a period of time when they are not actually serving as Reserve Forces and their liability under military law is sometimes in doubt. But I thank the Minister for the briefing and do not intend to press him.

My question refers to the protection of our Armed Forces abroad, under the judicial proceedings that might occur in the country in which they have been operating. There has been some progress, and the Minister kindly brought your Lordships up to date on the subject. But I wonder whether he could bring us finally up to date as to the legitimate protection afforded to British forces who find themselves persecuted or possibly charged by overseas legal authorities for actions committed in the course of conflict. I am clear that the proceedings should be under UK or British auspices and back in this country.

Armed Forces: Reserves

Lord Freeman Excerpts

Thursday 22nd October 2015 Grand Committee

Asked by

[Lord Freeman]

To ask Her Majesty’s Government what assessment they have made of the present and future strength of the reserves of the British Armed Forces.

[Lord Freeman (Con)]

My Lords, in the interests of noble Lords, who may not be able to hear me because of my croaky throat, I shall keep my remarks reasonably short. I am sure the Deputy Chairman will appreciate that that might allow a little more time for some of my colleagues. I am pleased that my noble friend Lord Howe is to reply to this Question for Short Debate. The Minister has been in place for only a short period of time, but I think that there is general agreement on both sides of the House that he has grasped his portfolio with alacrity, calmness and a great deal of courtesy. We look forward to his reply.

There has been some very poor press over at least the past six months, and the House has been paying close attention to recruitment levels in the Armed Forces. Recruitment into the Reserve Forces has received a bad press and has caused alarm among a number of noble Lords on all sides who hold the strength of the Reserve Forces dearly. I hope very much indeed that, to the extent that there is going to be some better news, the noble Earl will be kind enough to brief colleagues around the table, not only for the record but to instil a greater degree of confidence in the press.

In 1986, I became a junior Minister, serving my noble friend Lord Trefgarne, who was the Minister of State and who is in his place today. I had responsibility for the Reserve Forces at that time. A little later when I had left Parliament, Lord Younger, who was a very distinguished Secretary of State for Defence—I had the pleasure of serving twice in the ministry, partly under his stewardship—who had also left, rang me up to ask me to come to see him. He was then in the private sector, so I went to very palatial premises. He did not enter into a discussion; rather, he issued a very polite instruction, which was that he wanted me to take over from him as president, in 1999, of the Council of Reserve Forces’ and Cadets’ Associations. I served in that post for 12 years, and I pay tribute to my successor, my noble friend Lord De Mauley, who has taken up that responsibility with great energy and enthusiasm. When I first became the president, the Army contingent of our Reserve Forces numbered more than 50,000. I think that my noble friend Lord Trefgarne is nodding his head in agreement with my recollection.

[Lord Trefgarne (Con)]

It was 83,000, actually.

[Lord Freeman]

That shows that my noble friend had better mathematical training than me, but that figure probably includes all the Reserve Forces. It was certainly a very much larger number than we have today. What we need in this different era, one in which we face different threats because they no longer come from the continent but from around the world, is satisfactory size Reserve Forces—and in that I include the Maritime Reserve and the Royal Air Force Reserve. However, I shall concentrate my brief remarks principally on the Army. I believe that the strength of the Reserve Forces depends on a number of key factors, of which I will cover only three. However, there are many more to which your Lordships may wish to refer in due course.

The first factor is recruitment. Recruitment responds to the prospect of deployment. It is a natural desire of those joining any of the three reserves to serve the country, and the opportunity to do it in practice and reality is extremely important. That prospect is vital. I understand that there has been some progress—I look forward to hearing from the Minister about this later—towards meeting the target of 30,100 trained Army reservists by 2020.

In my judgment, there are three specific categories of recruitment needs. First, we have to attract young officers, coming principally from universities or colleges of further education, because they are there to lead their men. Records—certainly over the past 10 years, to my knowledge—have shown great difficulty in recruitment, particularly when the economy is growing. It is very important that we concentrate on that, working in tandem with those in higher education institutions who share that view. Secondly, recruitment figures from the medical profession are not brilliant at the moment. In my limited experience, the medical profession responds to a call for reserves if it understands the need and the threat. Nothing could be more dramatic than the service of reservists and regulars in Sierra Leone during the Ebola outbreak. That is one example, but there are many others around the world where those coming from a medical background to join the reserves have a real contribution to make. Thirdly, on ethnic minorities, we still have a lot more to do in persuading all the sections of our ethnic minorities in this country that it is a noble and worthwhile demonstration of citizenship to join the reserves.

The second factor is the prospect of deployment abroad. I think that as young men and women we all enjoyed the prospect, at university or in higher education, of being able to travel abroad. That is particularly relevant for reserves. So I appreciate that we have had deployment in Kabul in Afghanistan, Cyprus, Ukraine and the Falklands over the past 10 years—I may have my figures slightly in error—but the thrust of that deployment seems to have been working. I hope that that opportunity will continue to encourage recruitment. When deployed, it is very important that the reservist has the same kit, weapons and accoutrements as regular soldiers, and there has to be proper training beforehand with the regulars so that they feel part of one combined armed force.

The third factor is the recognition that the population at large sometime does not give to those who have served in the reserves. According to the records that I have looked at, we have had 70 decorations for conflict abroad over the past 10 years, I believe. That recognition is extremely important. Thirty-one reservists made the ultimate sacrifice and died in Iraq or Afghanistan. How many people, even in this great Parliament, would be able to recognise that even that small, but real, number had made that sacrifice?

I have taken heart, and I encourage others to read the excellent report from General Brims, who was chairman of the review. I shall paraphrase one quote for reasons of brevity: General Brims’s excellent report came to the conclusion that solid progress was being made. His comment about the cultural disconnect between regular and reserve components is important, and we have to do something about that. That is the next challenge which we have to face. I look forward to the other contributions to be made by noble Lords, particularly the Minister.

Al-Sweady Inquiry Report

Lord Freeman Excerpts

Wednesday 17th December 2014 Lords Chamber

[Lord Astor of Hever]

My Lords, I listened to part of the Statement as it was made in the House of Commons, and I think the suggestion was made that we should be talking to the legal profession to see whether there is some way to cut down the costs and simplify the process in the future. As I understood it, the Secretary of State responded favourably to that. Let us hope that it is one way forward.

[Lord Freeman (Con)]

My Lords, I welcome the sensible and clear conclusion of the inquiry. Will my noble friend bear in mind that, if there was any move to transfer responsibilities from British justice to the International Court of Justice, there would be serious misgivings on many sides of this House?

[Lord Astor of Hever]

My Lords, yes. I am well aware of the point my noble friend makes.

Armed Forces

Lord Freeman Excerpts

Monday 7th April 2014 Lords Chamber

[Lord Freeman (Con)]

My Lords, I join many of your Lordships—in fact, all of your Lordships—in thanking the noble Lord, Lord Dannatt, for initiating this debate. May I offer him some support? I think I speak for a number of my colleagues in saying that, if he is able to persuade the usual channels that we should have a full debate on defence in your Lordships’ House, then he can count on me to be one of his foot-runners on this particular issue.

I want to concentrate on the issue of the Reserves, the planned total size of which is 30,000. Perhaps I may say that my noble friend Lord Trefgarne, for whom I used to work as a junior Minister in the Ministry of Defence, will echo my recollection that if you go back 10 or 15 years what was then the Territorial Army had a trained force of over 50,000. To get to 30,000 therefore does not seem to me to be either impractical or impossible. I want to explain why I think it is of some significance and importance that we stick to that target.

My own experience, as president of the Council of the Reserve Forces and Cadets Associations for 10 years, was that there were some very important advantages in having what was then called the Territorial Army and is now the Reserve Forces drawn from large and small employers spread throughout the country. That is the first point: it would be quite wrong to ditch the target of 30,000 or reduce it in any way at all, because the reserves have a footprint across the whole of the country. With the Regular Army in particular withdrawing into a number of very large garrisons around the country, the footprint of the armed services could be reduced to our great disadvantage unless we maintain our target of 30,000. Even to speculate at this stage about reducing those numbers would send entirely the wrong signal about the efforts being made by employers. I am sure that my noble friend, who was responsible for liaison between large employers and the Armed Forces, will echo my point that it would send a confusing signal at this stage, when so much effort is being made.

I must tell your Lordships that the recent figures for recruitment into the Reserve Forces have begun to improve. If you go back three or four months there were some serious difficulties, but now the indications are that recruitment is better. We must maintain the national footprint of the Reserve Forces for political reasons—political with a small “p”, not party political—to make sure that we have the support and encouragement of our population for our Armed Forces.

The 30,000 target will include many specialists, and the nature of the Reserve Forces has changed over the previous 10 or 20 years. We are recruiting people with skills, whether in the medical profession or in construction, who can complement our Regular Forces so effectively and successfully. We have a five-year campaign running, and I am quite confident that we will reach the target. I am not in favour of sending the signal at this stage of reducing the target for our Reserve Forces to compensate for the need, it is argued, to increase our Regular Forces. We ought to stick to our guns—that may be an inappropriate comment, but I think it is true. We can reach 30,000 by 2018.

I look forward to working with the noble Lord, Lord Dannatt, to secure a full day’s debate in your Lordships’ House.

Armed Forces: Legal Challenge

Lord Freeman Excerpts

Thursday 7th November 2013 Lords Chamber

[Lord Freeman (Con)]

My Lords, I join colleagues in congratulating the noble Lord, Lord Faulks, on an excellent speech. I find myself in complete agreement with his contribution to this important debate, and my remarks would march very much in time and in tune with what he said.

I want to make what some noble Lords might feel is a rather narrow point, but for me it is very important: the impact of the uncertainty that has been created on the major challenge that we face in increasing our Reserve Forces, particularly the Army reservists. Twenty years ago we had something like—my noble friend Lord Trefgarne will confirm this—50,000 reservists. That fell to 15,000 only quite recently.

[Lord Trefgarne]

My Lords, we aimed for 83,000.

[Lord Freeman]

I defer to my noble friend on the statistics. Now, however, we are looking to increase the numbers to something like 35,000. The uncertainty that has been created by this discussion, however erudite and legal, is causing problems already. I say this as president for the past 10 years of the Reserve Forces Association, and the questions that I get—few at the moment, but they will gather speed and pace—about the liability of reservists who are serving abroad alarms me, and gives me concerns about our ability to reach our target of recruitment over the coming years. It is rather poignant that today the MoD has sent out a call for 1,500 extra reservists for service abroad, principally in Afghanistan.

I make a plea to the Minister and, through him, to his Secretary of State to come to a conclusion fairly quickly. I appreciate that the advice Ministers are receiving is, “Let’s wait and see what the results are of the lower court’s consideration of the issue”—the noble and learned Lord, Lord Hope, referred to two present cases. We cannot wait too long; we need clarification on this issue. I for one, and I dare say a number of noble Lords on this side of the House, would probably favour taking clear action on the Convention on Human Rights and disallowing it in relation to the activities of the Armed Forces, not just on the battlefield but in planning and preparation for conflict.

I look forward to the Minister’s response and hope that we can clarify the situation so that this major task of increasing our reservists can be done in a slightly calmer fashion and we can allay their fears that they might be subject to litigation in the courts of the United Kingdom.

Reserve Forces

Lord Freeman Excerpts

Wednesday 3rd July 2013 Lords Chamber

[Lord Astor of Hever]

My Lords, I cannot from the Dispatch Box answer the noble and gallant Lord’s question. That point is not in my briefing, but I will write to him.

[Lord Freeman]

My Lords, as a former president for 10 years of the Reserve Forces Association, I warmly welcome this Statement. I would be grateful if the Minister would confirm two key principles. First, we should maintain the footprint of the Reserve Forces—and the Armed Forces—around the country. I am very pleased that there are no dramatic plans to reduce their number. Secondly, will the Minister confirm that the support of employers, and in particular of small employers, is crucial to maintaining support for the Reserve Forces?

[Lord Astor of Hever]

My Lords, I can confirm both points. We consider the footprint absolutely vital. Where we have had to close places it is because there has been a very small uptake in recruitment. We have managed to close fewer than we planned. I agree with my noble friend’s point about employers, and in particular small companies. In finishing, I pay tribute to my noble friend for the important work that he did.

Armed Forces: Reserve Forces

Lord Freeman Excerpts

Thursday 1st November 2012 Lords Chamber

Asked By

[Lord Freeman]

To ask Her Majesty’s Government what plans they have for the future role of Her Majesty’s Reserve Forces.

[Lord Freeman]

My Lords, on behalf of many noble Lords, I am pleased to raise the issue of plans by Her Majesty’s Government for the Reserve Forces of all four of Her Majesty’s forces, which is an extremely important issue. I am very grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Astor of Hever, for his unfailing interest in the Reserve Forces, for his courtesy in briefing colleagues on plans, and for his presence this afternoon. I am also very grateful to him for replying to this debate, which is most important for many of those who have served in what used to be called the Territorial Army but also the Reserve Forces of the Royal Navy and the Royal Air Force.

I think that my colleagues on all Benches look forward to hearing from my noble friend an indication of the publication of the Green Paper, which was talked about some months ago, on the future of the Reserve Forces. Of course, that would lead inevitably to the proposal for legislative changes—certainly a White Paper—in due course. In the past few weeks and months, we have been somewhat delayed. I am all in favour of careful consideration of the issues that have been raised by colleagues both on these Benches and on other Benches about what has been discussed over the past few months concerning the future of the Reserve Forces.

My qualification is fairly modest for leading on this Question and I notice three noble and gallant Lords, and others, who know far more than I about the role of the Reserve Forces. I know that some, if not all, will be contributing to the debate. However, I served as the Minister responsible for the Reserve Forces under the late George Younger, who, in my judgment, was one of the most distinguished Secretaries of State for Defence. At his request, for the past 10 years, I have served as president of the Reserve Forces’ & Cadets Associations, which seems to have gone in a flash. I worked very closely with His Grace the Duke of Westminster and I pay particular tribute to the contribution that he has made, although he has now stepped down to help in other charitable causes. However, in my brief contribution, I speak for myself alone.

If your Lordships will forgive me, I shall concentrate on the Army. However, I pay particular credit to the Royal Navy and the Royal Air Force for the work that they have done in the contribution being made by the Reserve Forces, which may be small in comparison to the total numbers that we used to have in the Territorial Army if you go back 10 or 20 years. Nevertheless, the changes that have been made are creditable, sensible and useful.

I welcome the planned increase in Army reserves to 30,000 trained reserves over the next few years to augment the reduced number in the regular Army, once more than 20,000 of the latter come back from bases in Germany. Therefore, we need an increase in recruitment to the Army reserves, as the Government have indicated. We need particularly to recruit younger reserves; that is, those leaving school or coming up to university. That for me is extremely important.

In the time available to me, I want to comment briefly on six key issues which I believe are essential for successful expansion and the doubling of trained Army reserves by 2016, which is just round the corner. We should concentrate especially on younger recruits. First, as regards employer support, I defer to my noble friend Lord Glenarthur and shall listen to his comments. I pay tribute to the helpful work that he has done in the area of employer support. It is important that we begin to focus on larger companies and universities to help in the career development of younger recruits coming into the Reserve Forces.

Secondly, over the coming years we need to focus more specifically on recruiting those with special skills, such as people with a background in, or interest in qualifying in, areas such as the health service, logistics, cybersecurity, communications and engineering. This is where the Army reserves can make a real contribution not just to one part of the Army but to its overall effectiveness.

Thirdly, as regards countrywide cover, in recent years, the regular Army has for obvious reasons been concentrated in fewer major barracks and centres. One can understand that for reasons of not only expense but training and facilities. The footprint of the Reserve Forces around the country is extremely important. I am now talking specifically about the Army. I know that His Grace the Duke of Westminster feels particularly strongly about that. We do not want unused drill halls but, as far as I am concerned, the bigger the footprint of the Reserve Forces around the United Kingdom, the better.

Fourthly, I believe in training the regular Army with the reserves. This means having to use facilities at the weekends, because if you are in the reserves and have a full-time job Monday to Friday, it is easier to participate with your colleagues in regular Army units at the weekend. At the moment, some of our training facilities are not open at the weekends.

Fifthly, I think that what I am about to mention is already happening and I pay tribute to what the Army command has achieved in this respect. It is very important that reserve units in the Army are posted as a unit which includes the senior NCOs and the junior officers. In the past five years, for obvious reasons, partly because of the size of the regular Army, we have had what I believe the Navy calls trickle posting. I would like to see reserve units which are being trained together brigaded with and working with regular Army units. When there is an emergency, either civil and abroad, they should move as a unit.

Finally, will the Minister say when the Ministry of Defence will indicate what the ORBAT—order of battle—might be in the future; that is, how individual Territorial or reserve Army units might be brigaded with regular Army units to deal with an emergency not only in this country but abroad? I look forward to listening to the debate.

Armed Forces Bill

Lord Freeman Excerpts

Tuesday 6th September 2011 Grand Committee

[Lord Davies of Stamford]

My Lords, I say, first, that the Bill is extremely welcome. It is clear that Clause 2 is very well intended by the Government, but also that there has been a consensus among the contributions in Committee so far this afternoon that it does not go far enough and is inadequate. I congratulate all four supporters and proposers of the amendments who spoke; their contributions were extremely helpful. I will make one or two comments on each, starting with Amendment 11, tabled by the noble Lord, Lord Kakkar.

I totally agree with him that it is important that we should have professional analysis of the problems in the medical field before we start reporting on how adequate the medical facilities are, either for those who are serving or for those who have served. Clearly, we need to know what the problem is before we can assess the effectiveness of any solution that is proposed or implemented. However, with great respect to the noble Lord, I say that his amendment has it the wrong way round. It is wrong to wait for the stage after the reviewer has produced the review, at the point where the Secretary of State is going to publish the report, to have that specialist professional work done. We should start with that; it should be the evidential basis on which the reviewer works. He should compare the facilities in place with the professional advice on what the facilities ought to be. That work should be done at the outset, and I hope that if the reviewer is doing his job he will commission such work.

Under the proposals tabled by the right reverend Prelate the Bishop of Wakefield, my noble friend Lord Touhig and the noble Lord, Lord Ramsbotham, as well as in the original draft of the clause, there is provision for the reviewer to receive remuneration. Therefore, I do not see a problem in that. Perhaps we should not tell the reviewer exactly how to do his job, but we should express the hope, here and in other contexts, that he will commission professional work of the kind that has been suggested—or else there should be an obligation on him to commission the work. We should not leave it to the second stage of the Secretary of State.

I find myself entirely in agreement with Amendment 10, tabled by the noble Lord, Lord Palmer of Childs Hill. I do not know why anybody would disagree with it. The issue is one of making sure that the report covers what progress has been made in the provision of housing. This is not in any way a prescriptive obligation placed on anybody; it is purely descriptive and sets out the facts. I do not see why Parliament should resist a proposal, which is not unreasonably costly, that we should be given the facts when we ask the reviewer to review the state of housing. We need to know the facts relating to the portion of housing that is in the hands of housing associations. I am very much drawn to the proposal.

I turn to Amendment 9, put forward by the noble Lords, Lord Lee of Trafford and Lord Glenarthur, the noble Baroness, Lady Taylor, and the noble and gallant Lord, Lord Stirrup. At first sight I thought that it was a splendid proposal, but it is a little ambiguous. It states that the covenant report must include a statement that,

“the provisions of the report are compatible with subsection (2)(a)”.

I am not sure what that is intended to mean. Is it that the statements of fact in the reviewer's report are a correct description of the facts in the respective areas of health, education and local government? Or does it mean that any shortcomings that have been identified, and any recommendations that have been made, have been resolved and implemented by the time that the three Secretaries of State signed the statement? It is slightly unclear what is intended. If it is the latter, that has cost implications of a potentially unlimited kind, so the Treasury may see some difficulty in that. If it is merely a matter of the three Secretaries of State explicitly endorsing a description of the facts that the reviewer has uncovered, I see no objection at all: indeed, that would be extremely helpful.

Amendment 2, the key amendment in this group, is in the names of the right reverend Prelate the Bishop of Wakefield, and the noble Lords, Lord Ramsbotham and Lord Touhig. It is designed to address an obvious inadequacy in Clause 2 as produced by the Government; namely, first, the reviewer has to report only on “healthcare, education and housing” and, secondly,

“such other fields as the Secretary of State may determine”.

We know that “healthcare, education and housing” are not the full picture as far as the covenant is concerned. Several issues have been raised, notably veterans, which is terribly important. But there are also such issues as, for example, coroners’ inquests—this is a big issue which we will need to discuss during these proceedings and has been left out—and many other things.

Another aspect which concerns me is any potential discrimination which may exist against members of the Armed Forces. I am sorry to say that when I chaired the National Recognition of the Armed Forces report some years ago, we uncovered and documented in that report a number of cases of serious discrimination against members of the Armed Forces in this country. Luckily, we have not had incidents of that kind—at least not that I am aware of—in the past few years. But should such a situation arise again, the issue very much should be the target of a report by the reviewer on how the covenant is being implemented. I think that all sides of this Committee are agreed that there are many issues other than those three provided for in Clause 2.

Surely, the idea of the,

“other fields as the Secretary of State may determine”,

is ludicrous. This Bill would be a laughing stock if it went forward in that way. That someone should decide what aspects of fulfilment, responsibilities or behaviour should be reported on would be regarded as ludicrous in any other context and is, indeed, ludicrous in this context. That certainly should not stand.

Therefore, the proposals put forward by the right reverend Prelate the Bishop of Wakefield are very much to be welcomed. I see no obvious difficulties with any of the text of this provision and no reason why I should not support it if it comes to that point. It is again not a provision that places significant financial obligations on the Government. Of course, the reviewer has to be paid and he is allowed to run up some expenses and to pay his staff, which must be reasonable. We have already gone through one aspect of where he may legitimately incur expenses—for example, on professional medical advice. But these are small sums and very small beer. It could hardly be considered to be a serious financial liability.

I hope that the amendment commends itself to the Government. If they were to accept this, I believe that they would find immediately that there was a qualitative enhancement in the credibility and impact of the Bill as it becomes an Act of Parliament. It would make a real, historic change in the way in which this country regards the covenant, to which we all feel an obligation for the men and women who serve in our armed services.

[Lord Freeman]

My Lords, I shall speak briefly about Amendment 2. First, I pay tribute to the right reverend Prelate the Bishop of Wakefield for raising this whole issue and for speaking so clearly and comprehensively about his amendment. I speak with some trepidation because I spot five former Defence Ministers in Committee and three very distinguished former senior officers in the Armed Forces. But I believe that we need a moment of caution before we separate responsibility for looking at and making sure that the covenant is properly observed and pointing out difficulties and failure to achieve objectives from ministerial responsibility.

Like many of my colleagues of all parties, I speak as having served twice in the Ministry of Defence. I believe strongly that the responsibility of the Secretary of State, through his junior Ministers—Ministers of State and Parliamentary Under-Secretaries—should not be in any way compromised by attempting to shuffle it off to an independent reviewer. This is a bureaucratic point, not one of principle. It is a point about how the Ministry of Defence works.