Armed Forces Bill

Lord Davies of Stamford Excerpts

Tuesday 6th September 2011 Grand Committee

[Lord Kakkar]

I speak to Amendment 11 in my name and that of the noble Lord, Lord Patel. The matters I wish to cover in this amendment were dealt with at Second Reading in my own contribution, and relate to the obligation as part of the covenant to make an annual report with regard to matters of healthcare that attend former or current membership of the Armed Forces.

The amendment proposes that that report be properly informed through the collection of objective evidence that will allow us to ensure that the conclusions reached with regard to the impact of service on health status and the requirement to access healthcare facilities are properly recorded, and that conclusions derived from that report can be used to inform the provision of services in the future.

The health consequences of membership of the Armed Forces receive coverage regularly in the media, but much of that is anecdotal reporting. It does not provide the opportunity to constructively understand the implications of service, or how health services should best be provided to ensure that those who have served our country in such an important way have available primary and more acute hospital services that meet their needs. A report to Parliament dealing with the healthcare consequences of membership of the Armed Forces is very welcome. If it is not properly informed by prospective research, however, it will be meaningless and provide little opportunity to report anything other than anecdote.

These two amendments are not onerous. They just ensure, in moving forward a report on the question of healthcare and health status, that questions are posed at the beginning of any reporting cycle; that objective evidence is collected using established public health methods to answer those questions; and that those questions are reported in a systematic fashion to inform future development of policy, and to ensure that we are not in any way denying services or the best possible health outcomes for those who have served our country.

[Lord Davies of Stamford]

My Lords, I say, first, that the Bill is extremely welcome. It is clear that Clause 2 is very well intended by the Government, but also that there has been a consensus among the contributions in Committee so far this afternoon that it does not go far enough and is inadequate. I congratulate all four supporters and proposers of the amendments who spoke; their contributions were extremely helpful. I will make one or two comments on each, starting with Amendment 11, tabled by the noble Lord, Lord Kakkar.

I totally agree with him that it is important that we should have professional analysis of the problems in the medical field before we start reporting on how adequate the medical facilities are, either for those who are serving or for those who have served. Clearly, we need to know what the problem is before we can assess the effectiveness of any solution that is proposed or implemented. However, with great respect to the noble Lord, I say that his amendment has it the wrong way round. It is wrong to wait for the stage after the reviewer has produced the review, at the point where the Secretary of State is going to publish the report, to have that specialist professional work done. We should start with that; it should be the evidential basis on which the reviewer works. He should compare the facilities in place with the professional advice on what the facilities ought to be. That work should be done at the outset, and I hope that if the reviewer is doing his job he will commission such work.

Under the proposals tabled by the right reverend Prelate the Bishop of Wakefield, my noble friend Lord Touhig and the noble Lord, Lord Ramsbotham, as well as in the original draft of the clause, there is provision for the reviewer to receive remuneration. Therefore, I do not see a problem in that. Perhaps we should not tell the reviewer exactly how to do his job, but we should express the hope, here and in other contexts, that he will commission professional work of the kind that has been suggested—or else there should be an obligation on him to commission the work. We should not leave it to the second stage of the Secretary of State.

I find myself entirely in agreement with Amendment 10, tabled by the noble Lord, Lord Palmer of Childs Hill. I do not know why anybody would disagree with it. The issue is one of making sure that the report covers what progress has been made in the provision of housing. This is not in any way a prescriptive obligation placed on anybody; it is purely descriptive and sets out the facts. I do not see why Parliament should resist a proposal, which is not unreasonably costly, that we should be given the facts when we ask the reviewer to review the state of housing. We need to know the facts relating to the portion of housing that is in the hands of housing associations. I am very much drawn to the proposal.

I turn to Amendment 9, put forward by the noble Lords, Lord Lee of Trafford and Lord Glenarthur, the noble Baroness, Lady Taylor, and the noble and gallant Lord, Lord Stirrup. At first sight I thought that it was a splendid proposal, but it is a little ambiguous. It states that the covenant report must include a statement that,

“the provisions of the report are compatible with subsection (2)(a)”.

I am not sure what that is intended to mean. Is it that the statements of fact in the reviewer's report are a correct description of the facts in the respective areas of health, education and local government? Or does it mean that any shortcomings that have been identified, and any recommendations that have been made, have been resolved and implemented by the time that the three Secretaries of State signed the statement? It is slightly unclear what is intended. If it is the latter, that has cost implications of a potentially unlimited kind, so the Treasury may see some difficulty in that. If it is merely a matter of the three Secretaries of State explicitly endorsing a description of the facts that the reviewer has uncovered, I see no objection at all: indeed, that would be extremely helpful.

Amendment 2, the key amendment in this group, is in the names of the right reverend Prelate the Bishop of Wakefield, and the noble Lords, Lord Ramsbotham and Lord Touhig. It is designed to address an obvious inadequacy in Clause 2 as produced by the Government; namely, first, the reviewer has to report only on “healthcare, education and housing” and, secondly,

“such other fields as the Secretary of State may determine”.

We know that “healthcare, education and housing” are not the full picture as far as the covenant is concerned. Several issues have been raised, notably veterans, which is terribly important. But there are also such issues as, for example, coroners’ inquests—this is a big issue which we will need to discuss during these proceedings and has been left out—and many other things.

Another aspect which concerns me is any potential discrimination which may exist against members of the Armed Forces. I am sorry to say that when I chaired the National Recognition of the Armed Forces report some years ago, we uncovered and documented in that report a number of cases of serious discrimination against members of the Armed Forces in this country. Luckily, we have not had incidents of that kind—at least not that I am aware of—in the past few years. But should such a situation arise again, the issue very much should be the target of a report by the reviewer on how the covenant is being implemented. I think that all sides of this Committee are agreed that there are many issues other than those three provided for in Clause 2.

Surely, the idea of the,

“other fields as the Secretary of State may determine”,

is ludicrous. This Bill would be a laughing stock if it went forward in that way. That someone should decide what aspects of fulfilment, responsibilities or behaviour should be reported on would be regarded as ludicrous in any other context and is, indeed, ludicrous in this context. That certainly should not stand.

Therefore, the proposals put forward by the right reverend Prelate the Bishop of Wakefield are very much to be welcomed. I see no obvious difficulties with any of the text of this provision and no reason why I should not support it if it comes to that point. It is again not a provision that places significant financial obligations on the Government. Of course, the reviewer has to be paid and he is allowed to run up some expenses and to pay his staff, which must be reasonable. We have already gone through one aspect of where he may legitimately incur expenses—for example, on professional medical advice. But these are small sums and very small beer. It could hardly be considered to be a serious financial liability.

I hope that the amendment commends itself to the Government. If they were to accept this, I believe that they would find immediately that there was a qualitative enhancement in the credibility and impact of the Bill as it becomes an Act of Parliament. It would make a real, historic change in the way in which this country regards the covenant, to which we all feel an obligation for the men and women who serve in our armed services.

[Lord Freeman]

My Lords, I shall speak briefly about Amendment 2. First, I pay tribute to the right reverend Prelate the Bishop of Wakefield for raising this whole issue and for speaking so clearly and comprehensively about his amendment. I speak with some trepidation because I spot five former Defence Ministers in Committee and three very distinguished former senior officers in the Armed Forces. But I believe that we need a moment of caution before we separate responsibility for looking at and making sure that the covenant is properly observed and pointing out difficulties and failure to achieve objectives from ministerial responsibility.

Like many of my colleagues of all parties, I speak as having served twice in the Ministry of Defence. I believe strongly that the responsibility of the Secretary of State, through his junior Ministers—Ministers of State and Parliamentary Under-Secretaries—should not be in any way compromised by attempting to shuffle it off to an independent reviewer. This is a bureaucratic point, not one of principle. It is a point about how the Ministry of Defence works.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Rosser]

This amendment deals with Armed Forces advocates, which were raised at Second Reading by my noble friend Lady Taylor of Bolton. The amendment provides for the existing network of Armed Forces advocates to be extended at the regional and local level to ensure that local authorities work together to identify and resolve issues in local policy or the delivery of services which may affect servicepeople.

My noble friend Lady Taylor referred to the action of the previous Government in piloting an Armed Forces welfare pathway under which some local authorities appointed Armed Forces advocates to ensure that, as part of policy development, steps were taken to ensure that services provided at the local level appropriately recognised the specific needs of Armed Forces personnel, veterans and their families. The noble Lord, Lord Wallace of Saltaire, said in response that the Government supported the idea of Armed Forces advocates at the local level if that was the approach chosen by the local authority concerned. That was a rather disappointing response as it suggested that, despite the warm words, the Government intended to do nothing to promote Armed Forces advocates. As my noble friend Lady Taylor said, there are considerable pressures on local authorities at the moment. She asked what mechanisms the Minister thought should be put in place to ensure that local communities are protected and that real progress is made, along with effective monitoring at both the local and national level. It is important that we have Armed Forces advocates at the point of service delivery, where the test will come of whether the state’s commitments, on which there is a political consensus, are being realised.

I hope that the Minister, on behalf of the Government, will accept this amendment. If he is not able to do so, I trust that he will respond to the questions asked at Second Reading by my noble friend Lady Taylor of Bolton and spell out, bearing in mind the Government's support for the idea of Armed Forces advocates, what action they intend to take to encourage more local authorities to go down this road.

[Lord Davies of Stamford]

My Lords, I support the amendment of my noble friend Lord Rosser. I will make two points. First, the system that he proposes, as he is well aware, has existed for some time in France; I take it that the Government, too, have seen that. I believe it works extremely well. It is always sensible not to reinvent the wheel. If one finds a mechanism in a compatible country which is working well, that is evidence in favour of a proposal—or if it is not working well, it is evidence against. The French are very satisfied with the way in which this works.

Secondly, the position taken up to now by the Government—who have been very good at listening open-mindedly to these debates, so I trust that it was a provisional view—is that all we need to do is to facilitate local authorities to appoint Armed Forces advocates where they wish to do so, and that we do not need to intervene where they do not. This is a most illogical approach to the problem. Local authorities with the will to create the post of Armed Forces advocate have, by that fact, already demonstrated that they are alert and sensitive to this need. The problems arise with local authorities that are not inclined to set up Armed Forces advocates. Authorities which, either through mistrust of the military or sheer ignorance, have not focused on this and are not inclined to accept the proposal, are those where problems are likely to arise and where an advocate is most necessary. The more logical solution is the one proposed by my noble friend. I hope that it will find favour with noble Lords and with the Government.

[Lord Astor of Hever]

My Lords, I say at the outset that I regard Armed Forces advocates as an excellent idea. In UK government departments and in the devolved Administrations, they carry out two highly important roles. They ensure that their department’s policies take account of the special needs of the Armed Forces community, and they communicate their department’s perspective to others, including my officials and external stakeholders such as family federations or ex-service charities. Elsewhere, in local authorities or in NHS bodies, Armed Forces advocates or individuals with similar titles act as champions for service personnel, families or veterans. In some cases they are responsible for improving communications with the Armed Forces community to ensure that entitlements to services are properly understood. The exact role depends on the job to be done. There is no single model and neither should there be.

In answer to the question of the noble Lord, Lord Rosser, about the Second Reading speech of the noble Baroness, Lady Taylor, we want to ensure that best practice is promoted around the country, for example through the community covenant. We will be able to draw attention to successful uses of the advocate system, but it will be for them to decide what is best in their circumstances. I hope that that answers the question.

My difficulty with the amendment does not concern the merits of Armed Forces advocates at the local level; that is not in doubt. The case for them at the regional level is perhaps less obvious, but there is no need to legislate for their existence. The previous Government set up advocates without requiring any legislation and I commend them for doing so. I suggest to the Committee that the same logic applies and that we should not support the amendment. Therefore, I hope that the noble Lord will withdraw it.

[Lord Davies of Stamford]

Before the noble Lord sits down, I would be grateful for his reaction to my point that surely it is those local authorities least inclined to establish the post of Armed Forces advocate where it is most likely the Armed Forces will need such an advocate, and vice versa.

[Lord Astor of Hever]

The noble Lord makes a very good point. We will certainly look at this.