Business of the House

Debate between Lord Framlingham and Lord Harris of Haringey

Wednesday 4th September 2019 Lords Chamber

[Lord Framlingham]

I think the British people are now totally confused and utterly fed up with politicians and Parliament, and they simply want Brexit done, in the way the Prime Minister proposes. We should get on with it.

This guillotine Motion is outrageous, but it is only another blow, in a long line of such actions, to the workings and stature of the House. The opposition parties will use any device, existing or created by them, to frustrate normal government. Their treatment of the Northern Ireland Bill is a very sad case in point.

[Lord Harris of Haringey]

Could I draw the attention of the noble Lord, Lord Framlingham, to paragraph 4.23 of the Companion? I appreciate he will not have it with him, but it says that:

“Debate must be relevant to the Question before the House”.


While his remarks about Northern Ireland are very interesting, they are not relevant to the item before the House.

[Lord Framlingham]

I assure the noble Lord that I will take a copy of the Companion with me when I go home. I am talking about the guillotine Motion and all that relates to it. The guillotine is what we are talking about now. We are about to introduce an extraordinary measure; I do not know why the House is so relaxed about it. We will come on to the essence of guillotines later, but I am talking about manifestos at the moment. The idea that the House of Lords should introduce a guillotine is quite ridiculous.

I was making the point that the Northern Ireland Bill was used to bend normal rules. To try to force the Government to report to the House of Commons in the period leading up to 31 October, the Opposition sought to table an amendment in the House of Commons. The Speaker did not allow it, so, taking advantage of our lenient rules on tabling amendments, they persuaded someone here to table it. It was duly passed in our House, where the Opposition, in this case, have a guaranteed majority. When it arrived back in the Commons, it was then deemed to be within the scope of the Bill. The Opposition promptly tabled their own amendment and it was passed. Finally, it was passed again by us. What a crafty and very sad way of circumventing our normal proceedings.

I will briefly read a quote relating to that from a Member of the other Place responsible for it. I will not name him in case I am in error again. He said, as they were trying to do this:

“Would my right hon. and learned Friend first agree that the reason that Mr Speaker quite rightly did not select new clause 14 is that it would not have been within the scope of the Bill as unamended, but that, if amended by my right hon. and learned Friend’s amendments, new clause 14 would probably be brought into scope? Secondly, does he agree that their lordships in the other place take a rather wider view of scope than is typically taken here, and therefore there is ample reason to suppose that, given the majorities we know to exist in the House of Lords, new clause 14 in some form is actually likely to be added to the package and therefore to be operative?”.


His colleague said:

“Yes, I do agree. That is certainly one of the reasons this should go to the other place”.—[Official Report, Commons, 9/7/19; cols. 243-44.]


There you are: that is how we are used and abused when it is appropriate.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Framlingham]

If the House does not like what I am saying, I apologise, but I am hardly filibustering. Sadly, those opposed to us leaving the European Union will stop at nothing and manifesto commitments clearly can be dispensed with. The result will be that the public will lose even more of their trust in politics and politicians when they go to the country. The implication for our political system is frightening. We must return to the tried and trusted ways of running our affairs and seek to win back the trust of the people. I urge Members opposite who are supporting these measures, and who I feel sure care about our Parliament and our constitution, to look into their hearts and draw back from these dangerous and draconian measures.

I will end with a brief manifesto from myself. I believe this should be our vision for the United Kingdom. As a nation, with all we have to offer the world, we should show self-belief without arrogance, conviction without pomposity, determination without aggression, competition without rancour, and leadership without conceit. We must champion our deep-rooted belief in the value and integrity of the nation state and our distrust of blocs that attempt to harmonise and formalise unnatural groupings. Europe should be a flexible jigsaw of independent nation states, working closely together but each one able to flex separately in response to its individual needs. Cementing nations together in blocs or unions produces a stultifying rigidity, tension, friction and ultimately cracking and break-up, which is now beginning to happen in the EU. We are not tearing ourselves out of the heart of a thriving organisation, but sensibly detaching ourselves from an ailing bloc that has within it the increasingly obvious seeds of its own destruction. We will provide more help and support to the EU in the long term as a strong and independent ally, not as a permanently disgruntled partner. We must have the courage of our convictions, faith in our country and determination to honour the decision we took in the referendum. There might be short-term problems, but most of them are hugely exaggerated and a bright and stable future awaits us.

[Lord Harris of Haringey]

I beg to move that the Question be now put.

Online Safety Bill [HL]

Debate between Lord Framlingham and Lord Harris of Haringey

Friday 11th December 2015 Lords Chamber

[Lord Harris of Haringey (Lab)]

My Lords, I, too, congratulate the noble Baroness, Lady Howe, on getting to this stage. The fact that it has taken her five years demonstrates why the amendments and the clause are so important. If it takes five years—of course, the Bill still has some way to go before it becomes legislation—that gives us some indication of how long it will take to change subsequently. Therefore, it is important that whatever legislation is passed on technology matters, not just on this important issue of online safety of children but in any area, is future proofed. As a Parliament, we are very good at reacting to a crisis which is occurring now or occurred a year or 18 months ago. Our parliamentary processes necessarily take time. On something like this, where it has been necessary for a Private Member to act, it clearly takes even longer.

Unless we future-proof to recognise the rapidly changing nature of technology, all the provisions that I hope we will agree to here today will be of no value. Technology changes much too rapidly, and that is why we need to future-proof legislation. When the Minister gives what I trust will be a positive response to the Bill, she must encourage her colleagues in government departments, when they draft legislation that relates to technology, to include future-proofing provisions.

[Lord Framlingham (Con)]

My Lords, I shall be brief. First, I, too, congratulate the noble Baroness, Lady Howe, on her efforts: she has been amazingly courageous and tenacious to get the Bill as far as this. The noble Lord said that it has taken five years. How many young children have had their lives really altered for the worse in those five years simply because we in both Houses of Parliament have not managed to give them the protection they deserve?