Procurement Bill [HL]

Debate between Lord Fox and Lord Berkeley

Committee stage
Wednesday 6th July 2022 Grand Committee

[Lord Fox (LD)]

My Lords, very briefly, I thank the Minister for her clear statement. The subject of utilities has come up both on Monday and today, and we are beginning to get some clarity around how the whole utility story fits together, but anything more she can give us on that would be helpful. This is probably not helpful, but it seems to me to be an analysis of the issue. The majority of the trade deals to date are essentially rollover trade deals, and to paraphrase the noble Baroness, Lady Noakes, this legislation is essentially rollover legislation. However, trade deals such as the Australia deal are not rollover trade deals. We are in danger of trying to pour new wine into old skins here.

The issue that my noble friend highlighted here is an example where the new-style trade deal is not easily catered for in the old-style legislation, which is essentially rollover legislation. I am not sure what the solution to that is, other than “more work needed”, but I think—and this is a dispassionate and hopefully helpful observation —we are looking at a new trading position. The Government talk about that all the time, but we are essentially looking at legislation that was dealing with an existing set of trade deals which are, by their nature, different from the new ones. This is what is being thrown up, and we will start to see problems thrown up increasingly.

[Lord Berkeley (Lab)]

To go back to Amendment 20, the noble Baroness gave some useful explanation of the definition of a utility. I want to go on briefly to the example that the noble Lord, Lord Purvis, mentioned, which is freeports. That presumably comes under paragraph 5 of Schedule 4, on page 86. It is not clear to me whether any of the activities of a freeport are exempt or not. In other words, the freeport gets a load of money from the Government, but does it have to comply with the procurement regulations and everything else in the Bill? Does it have to be transparent about how it complies, whether it has sent out for three quotes or whatever, and whether the contracts have been awarded fairly? That is one example, and I expect there are many others in other sectors. It would be interesting to know because when we get to Schedule 2, there are so many different definitions in there that it is quite difficult to understand which applies to what. I am sure that, at some stage, the Ministers will try to give us some examples of all these different issues on page 81.

Construction Contracts (England) Exclusion Order 2022

Debate between Lord Fox and Lord Berkeley

Monday 13th June 2022 Grand Committee

[Lord Berkeley (Lab)]

My Lords, I too am grateful to the Minister for his explanation—I tried to understand most of it. I too am interested in paragraph 7.3, to which the noble Baroness referred, because it comes back to the question of the best way of achieving fair competition when there is going to be a massive new project to provide better services in the water sector. One has to look perhaps at the example of the Thames Tideway tunnel—that probably comes under the category of being large. Whether it will deliver what Thames Water thinks that it will at a price that customers can afford remains to be seen. I do not quite see why these two large projects should be dealt with separately. Could the Minister name them and give us some idea of what they are about and what the risks might be? I will not go into them now, because they could be anything.

The regulator is apparently in charge of all of this and will vet contracts that it seems to me will be to design, construct and operate—why can these not be done by competitive tendering, with the usual construction industry fallbacks if things go wrong? It would be interesting if the Minister could give us more information about not only the two big ones but the 18 strategic water resources ones. How will anyone be able to tell or believe—we hope that we will be able to believe—that the regulator has delivered for the customer as well as for shareholders?

[Lord Fox (LD)]

As the Minister knows, I am no lawyer—perhaps I should have taken a law degree before attempting this statutory instrument. I note that it is not just the European Union that can amass red tape; we seem to be doing it very well on our own, so I am not sure it can refer us to the WTO for competition.

This is a very complex model. I was caught by the idea that we appear to have been progressing without it for a while. In a sense, is this closing a loophole that has been spotted, or does this reflect a trend in how the market is going about delivering these projects? What drove the decision to table this statutory instrument now? In other words, what has caused this to happen now when it clearly could have happened some time before or in future?

In passing, the Minister mentioned benefits to consumers. I think he outlined that there would be some sort of competitive tendering process, and therefore the price of a particular project would go down in cost. I am interested in the very sharp end of the consumer experience—the connection and that kind of thing. I assume that this applies to that as well as to the larger projects. If it does not, how will a new consumer attempting to join the system experience it? As I understand it, at the moment they are given a “take it or leave it” price by the water supplier. Does that continue to be the case? Will there be an opportunity for consumers to drive down the cost to them of an individual connection or is this focusing only on much larger projects?

The other point is how this flows through the supply chain. The Minister mentioned that the tier 1 contractors are potentially liable to be most affected. However, this marks a change right down through the chain to tiers 2, 3 and others. I would be interested to know how low down their tier structure the department intends to bring suppliers up to speed on how they address their role in this change in the supply chain. Other than that, I think I welcome this and certainly look forward to the Minister’s answers.