British Steel
Debate between Lord Fox and Earl of Minto(1 year, 1 month ago)
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The Earl of Minto (Con)
My Lords, obviously the loss of any jobs, particularly in a sector as important as steel, is to be deplored. However, there are commercial necessities that we are all fully aware of. The activity that the Government took in Port Talbot shows very clearly the commitment that we have to supporting the transition from historic steel-making to something more modern. As far as the production of virgin steel is concerned, the noble Lord is absolutely right that it will be affected by the closure of the smelting plants, but we will still be able to import limited amounts of iron ore pellets, which can be put towards the other steel that we have already within this country to produce what is required.
Lord Fox (LD)
My Lords, I welcome the Opposition spokesperson back to his Front Bench and thank the Minister for his answer. However, I do not think that he is grasping the point. Steel is vital to the economy, as the Answer said, but it is also vital to our strategic interest. At a time when we are talking about the need for secure supply chains, does the Minister recognise that this weakens the supply chain for our defence, aerospace and automotive industries?
The Earl of Minto (Con)
I completely understand the position of the noble Lord. During this transition period there is bound to be some effect. However, once the new systems are in place, there should be no change.
Post Office Compensation
Debate between Lord Fox and Earl of Minto(1 year, 3 months ago)
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Lord Fox (LD)
My Lords, I too thank the noble Earl for repeating this Statement. I recognise the good faith that the Under-Secretary of State in the Commons and the noble Earl have in trying to move this forward. As the noble Baroness, Lady Blake, said, this scandal is deeply shameful—one of the most deeply shameful incidents in public life, certainly in our lifetimes. It has involved lying, cover-up and deceit on an industrial scale and, to date, only the innocent have been punished.
Nevertheless, as I said, this announcement is a sincere attempt to inject some forward movement. As media reports have indicated, and as the noble Baroness set out, since the announcement, some of the victims will be freed from the need for an extensive claims assessment process through this offer. Others, some of the most egregiously harmed by this scandal, will rightly decline in anticipation of more appropriate compensation via a full assessment and, clearly, the Government have recognised this right, which is the right thing to do.
I sense and understand the Government’s frustration that only 86 out of an estimated 600 people who were damned by Horizon evidence have so far come through the process. Perhaps this new announcement will attract some people out, but I ask the Minister: what is plan B and what else are the Government going to do to try to inject further forward motion in this awful scandal? The process is grindingly slow and presents imposing challenges to people who have already been burned by their contact with the courts and the authorities. These are people who have been psychologically harmed by the system and now have to re-enter it to get recompense. Some element of psychological understanding has to go into coaxing these people to cross that line.
In the Commons, my honourable friend the Member for Tiverton and Honiton asked a very pertinent question regarding subpostmasters who were dismissed but not prosecuted. In his thoughtful answer, Kevin Hollinrake MP highlighted the complexity and difficulty of processing claims. This is the nub of the problem and why things are grindingly slow. It is complex and difficult, and things are taking so long. Already, people have died and more will die before they find justice. I understand that this announcement is driven by a desire to move things forward, but can the Minister please undertake to carry back to his department your Lordships’ frustration and plea for greater urgency and more energy to make this move forward?
I have a question, which perhaps the Minister can explain now or write to us. Do the victims in this process, which is complex, have to prove themselves innocent, or is the assessment the other way around? It seems to me much harder to prove innocence than to refute guilt. Perhaps one way of moving this forward is to change the bar that people have to clear in the assessment process, and make it clear to them that it has been lowered and made easier. Perhaps we are applying too rigorous a standard for people who were so unrigorously prosecuted in the first place.
The elephants in the room in this inquiry are the roles played by the Post Office and Fujitsu, as the noble Baroness, Lady Blake, said. Here, I think the Government have been found wanting. The Government moved on the issue of senior employee bonuses, for which they deserve some praise, but, seemingly unchastened by this overall story, the Post Office is still taking an obfuscatory stance with respect to providing evidence to the inquiry and moving things forward, and it continues to be allowed to do so. Secondly, can the Minister confirm that Fujitsu remains commercially untouched by this and continues to bid and win government contracts—and can he tell us why?
This is a welcome announcement, but it is one step and there is a long way to go, so please can the Minister, who I know is working with us in good faith, work with his colleagues to find new ways to speed it up and find resolution and at least some end to this sorry story?
The Minister of State, Department for Business and Trade (The Earl of Minto) (Con)
My Lords, I thank both noble Lords for their speeches, which were both very powerful and raised some extremely salient points on what I think everybody must agree is one of the most atrocious commercial situations that this country has experienced. Both the noble Baroness and the noble Lord are quite right: this is an extremely complicated situation and of course it goes back over a very long time now. Memories are fading and some of the financial data, which is critical to sorting out some of the issues, is not as fresh as it was and, of course, we have the terrible situation of individuals being not only prosecuted but jailed—and unfortunately some have even taken their own life, which is just beyond belief.
This is one of the very worst incidents in commercial history. When it comes to trying to support the victims wherever one possibly can, the Government are increasingly taking steps to not only get an appropriate amount of compensation into their hands but to encourage people to come forward, which seems to be one of the hardest things to do. For one reason or another, people who have been so badly affected by this situation are unwilling to come forward. The noble Lord, Lord Fox, made the extremely interesting point that it could be that proof of innocence is harder than proof of guilt, which of course is completely the wrong way round. I will certainly ask what the Government can do in relation to that, but this is an increasingly difficult situation to get to the bottom of.
Having said that, the offer of £600,000, free of any tax and with legal support if so required, for the individuals involved where their conviction has been overturned is a genuine attempt to make things much simpler and easier for those who find the whole process of going through the established claims procedure too challenging. This is an offer that is not conditional upon anything. My honourable friend Minister Hollinrake said “no ifs, no buts”—it is £600,000 tax free, and of course it is a full and final settlement. The clarity of it is absolutely simple. I hope that will appeal to certain people who may want to bring financial closure where possible. There is no doubt that it will not appeal to everybody. I am sure we have all read in the press this morning a number of stories of people who are talking about numbers which are considerably higher than this. It is right and proper that they should continue to press their case through the compensation channels that they have.
I will address some of the issues raised. I am afraid I cannot give a clear answer to every single one of them; some of them are extremely subjective and probably need a little more thought. I will certainly write where I have not addressed the issue.
The question of personal damages is a tricky one. The Government have already made interim payments of £21 million to 86 postmasters who have had their convictions overturned.
On how the £600,000 figure was reached, I am not absolutely clear. It is a huge step forward from what was available previously, but I will follow that up. From the point of view of the pecuniary amount, it is a significant amount of money. The offer that anybody who has already settled and who got less than £600,000 through the existing channels will be made good up to that figure is an honourable way of going about it. It is extremely important—I quite agree.
As to how many people will take it up, that again is a very difficult question to answer. As I am sure the noble Baroness knows, there are a number of these unfortunate individuals who have already employed lawyers and who are already into the process. I guess they have to be confident that the legal advice they receive will either allow them to pursue what they have started or take this offer. I am not certain that it is the Government’s role to get involved in that; I do not think that is the case. As far as the total amount goes, if everybody were to take it up, obviously that would be £600,000 per claimant, but my suspicion is that it will end up being a bit more than that.
As for the timescale, this offer is to make it simple and fast, for all sorts of reasons. As the noble Baroness said, this has been going on for an unacceptably long time. The attempt to make it transparent and simple is a genuine attempt to bring closure for as many people as possible.
The point about the Post Office, the Government and Fujitsu is very well made, and I will address that later, if I may.
Finally, on the point about it never, ever happening again, I do not think anybody would put their hand on their heart and say that something like this could never happen again, but one of the collateral benefits of a situation such as this is that it raises awareness. One has to go back a long time, but, as noble Lords may know, I was a retailer in my commercial life and the level of faith that one put in electronic point-of-sale equipment and the systems behind those front-facing things was, in the early days, at times ill-founded. One would think now that there are enough checks and balances within any form of automated stock control and management system that anything that does not look right would be flagged up—that is certainly my experience. I do not think that something as specific as what we have had to face through the Horizon scandal is likely nowadays with the advances in technology.
I will refer quickly to the comments of the noble Lord, Lord Fox. I am entirely with the noble Lord; this is a deeply shameful situation. I have stood here before and talked about the way that the Post Office runs itself; I do not think anybody can be in any doubt as to what I think some of its commercial failings have been. We have to look only at the extraordinary situation around the bonus payment, which has now been fully repaid; the chief executive has paid back more than he had to—slightly too little, too late, in my view, but at least it is an acceptance of failure. The Government are acutely aware of those issues.
As for damages through the courts, that is really a question for the courts. As I understand it, the legal advice that you get when you make a claim through the court—I referred to this earlier—is such that it is always an estimate. I imagine that, for some, it is absolutely obvious that they will continue to go through the courts, whereas for others that is not the case. The fact that the Government will make up the difference is certainly an honourable way to address that.
The question of those dismissed but not prosecuted is something that we need to address. I am again surprised, as I imagine are a lot of people, by the amount of people who have not applied and put their names forward. However, on the group litigation order, as of 15 September, 461 registration forms had been received and 32 full claims. Seven offers had been made and accepted. It shows that all these different opportunities are starting to gain some traction. It would be nice if we could get through them as quickly as possible.
I think that is probably it, apart from the elephants in the room—Fujitsu and the Post Office. The Government are keen to get this out the way and settled, before we see where we stand with Fujitsu. It is a core participant in the inquiry. It must now know what went wrong; well, it certainly did before we knew. Once the independent inquiry is complete, I am sure there will be a robust conversation with Fujitsu and, no doubt, its insurers.
I might finish on that. This has been a horrifying experience for a large number of people—well over 2,500—and the Government continue to do what we can.
Lord Fox (LD)
Before the Minister answers that, it is important to bring home and build on the point made by the noble Baroness, Lady Falkner. A strategy to communicate with certain communities is different from a strategy to communicate with the mainstream community. It involves community leaders, different media and different things. Do the Government have a proper media communication strategy of the sort that was just mentioned that involves using community leaders as intermediaries for those people to give them the confidence to step forward?
I talked about the Post Office being obfuscatory. Among the things it was obfuscatory about were appalling racial slurs that were used to characterise those people. At the heart of this is a racial element, and we should not forget that. Many of the people who were punished may well have been singled out because of their classification within that process. I think the Government owe it to them to double down on this communication.
The Earl of Minto (Con)
I entirely agree. The Government really do owe it to them to double down on it and I will find out exactly what the situation is. I know that telephone calls, letters, victim meetings and all sorts of things are going on, and it is extremely important that we get to the bottom of it. I will write to noble Lords with the details and let them know exactly how we are proceeding.
Small and Medium-sized Enterprises: Interest Rates
Debate between Lord Fox and Earl of Minto(1 year, 3 months ago)
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The Earl of Minto (Con)
I entirely agree with my noble friend about the very good news about the economy. The EIS and SEIS schemes, along with VCT, have been enormously popular and successful, with over £40 billion being invested since their inception in 1994. We are assured by the Chancellor that the Government are committed to their renewal. We absolutely recognise the need for investors and companies, so that investment continues without interruption going forward. My noble friend will understand that I cannot give exact timings today, but the details will be provided by His Majesty’s Treasury ahead of the renewal date. On the European clauses, I ask your Lordships to understand that the Chancellor will have in mind that any renewal is for UK business only and no longer for the wider European audience.
Lord Fox (LD)
My Lords, on 17 July the Financial Times reported that the Prime Minister was convening a new business advisory council, bringing together senior bosses to shape government policy. The paper lists
“AstraZeneca, NatWest, BAE Systems, SSE, Google DeepMind, J Sainsbury, Vodafone, GSK, Aviva, Shell, Sage, Taylor Wimpey, Diageo and Barclays”.
That does not leave much room for the SMEs to get their message across, but it does typify the big business approach taken by this Government. Will the Minister confirm who is on this council, whether it has met yet, and how he expects small and medium-sized businesses to be able to catch the Prime Minister’s ear in such company?
The Earl of Minto (Con)
The noble Lord makes a very good point. Those are some of the largest international companies in the world, and I am sure that they will provide the Prime Minister with some extremely helpful advice. Having said that, as we all know, in this country the vast majority of businesses are small and medium-sized enterprises. In my role, I communicate with them almost constantly, both individuals and representative bodies. The value they have to add to these sorts of fora should not be underestimated. They are an extremely valuable and successful part of our economy.
Industrial Strategy
Debate between Lord Fox and Earl of Minto(1 year, 6 months ago)
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The Earl of Minto (Con)
I thank my noble friend for his comments and his question: indeed, I will. On the specific question of investment, the Government, along with Rolls-Royce, have invested over £300 million in small modular reactors. On inward investment—again, I agree that a massive amount of inward investment is always required—we have arrangements with the UAE, bringing in £5.9 billion, and Qatar, for £10 billion. We know about the Nissan/Envision billion-pound investment up in the north and Ford has put in nearly £400 million recently as well.
Lord Fox (LD)
My Lords, Make UK, the manufacturing organisation—it represents most of the countries’ manufacturers—issued an authoritative report on industrial strategy. Some 99% of respondents said that they believed that the UK should have an industrial strategy—which indicates that they do not think that the UK has one now. Will the Minister acknowledge that the very people who are going to deliver what he talks about have not heard what he thinks he has told them?
The Earl of Minto (Con)
My Lords, I understand exactly the point that is being made. Communication is critical to any successful enterprise, and there is no doubt that the change from a unified industrial strategy to one that is more targeted and focused is, at times, not the easiest message to get across. However, I believe that the five growth sectors for which the specific strategies have been written will be very effective.
Carer’s Leave Bill
Debate between Lord Fox and Earl of Minto(1 year, 7 months ago)
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Baroness Blake of Leeds (Lab)
My Lords, I welcome this stage of this important Bill. I acknowledge the very rich debate we had at Second Reading, including the incredible personal testimony from so many Members on behalf of their own families and people they had met in their communities or work. As the noble Lord, Lord Fox, laid out, this is an important first step, but we need to acknowledge that there is still much more to do. I emphasise, to avoid any confusion, that this refers to unpaid leave, although many arguments have been made to move to paid leave.
We have heard very clearly that the Bill will help to relieve the stress and isolation that carers often experience—the loneliness, the impact on mental health and, as we have heard, the disproportionate impact on women. But what we also know, which is not emphasised enough, is that the Bill will benefit employers by reducing the risk of the absenteeism, turnover and retention of staff.
All that remains is to thank Wendy Chamberlain MP, the Bill’s sponsor in the other place; the noble Lord, Lord Fox, for bringing it to the Lords; and the cross-party support we have seen. I also refer to the work by Carers UK from which we have all benefited. I thank carers and their families who have shared their stories and experiences. In particular, I make special mention of my noble friend Lady Pitkeathley; she is very sorry not to be able to be here today. I thank her again for her tireless work over many years and her absolute determination to make progress on this really significant issue.
The Minister of State, Department for Business and Trade (The Earl of Minto) (Con)
My Lords, I thank the noble Lord, Lord Fox, for bringing the Bill through the House. The Government have been pleased to support it throughout all its stages. This is in line with our 2019 manifesto, which committed to introduce one week of leave for unpaid carers; I am pleased to continue that support today at Third Reading. I am also very grateful for the cross-party support that the Bill has received.
The Government appreciate the time dedicated by unpaid carers to help those who rely on them for their everyday needs. No one should underestimate the contribution that unpaid carers make. They play a vital role in society, supporting those who are unable to care independently for themselves. Many provide that care while holding down a job. We know that there are some brilliant, supportive and flexible employers out there already who are taking great steps to support those in their workforce with caring responsibilities, recognising the value to both their businesses and their employees of helping carers to stay in work. The Bill will extend aspects of what those employers do voluntarily to all employers, ensuring a baseline of support for all working unpaid carers. This will help to alleviate the pressure that carers—particularly women, who are more likely to provide care—can face as they seek to juggle their work and caring responsibilities.
The new right to carer’s leave will provide more flexibility to those unpaid carers. It will enable them to take more time out of work if they need to. Carer’s leave will allow employees to be absent from work on unpaid leave to provide or arrange care for a dependant with a long-term care need. Eligible employees will be able to take the leave, regardless of how long they have worked for their employer. It will be available from the first day of their employment. The leave will be available to take in increments of half-days, up to a week, to be taken over a 12-month period. Employees will not be required to provide evidence in relation to a request for carer’s leave. Employees taking carer’s leave will have the same employment protections as associated with other forms of family-related leave, including protection from dismissal or detriment as a result of having taken the leave.
I am personally very pleased to support the Bill; it is a huge step in the right direction for our carers, who give their time to help others who need it. I once again thank the noble Lord, Lord Fox, for his sponsorship of the Bill as it has moved through the House. I also thank Wendy Chamberlain and my honourable friend Kevin Hollinrake for their stewardship in the other place and their hard work in putting the Bill forward.
Lord Fox (LD)
My Lords, I thank the Minister for his words, and, more than that, I thank him for the Government’s support for the Bill. I also thank the noble Baroness, Lady Blake, who pointed to the personal nature of the Bill and the improvements it will give to individuals across the country.
It has been an unusual experience for me to propose, rather than oppose, something, and to have the support of the House, so I thank all noble Lords for that. However, I am standing on the shoulders of giants. From my own Benches, my noble friend Lady Tyler has been a very important supporter of the needs of carers in the Bill. As the noble Baroness, Lady Blake, pointed out, the noble Baroness, Lady Pitkeathley, has been a tireless campaigner for carers, both in the House and through Carers UK. It is a great shame that neither she nor my noble friend were able to be here today, because, frankly, this is the culmination of their work rather than anything I have done.
Wendy Chamberlain did a great job in the Commons in proposing the Bill and stewarding it through. I thank Kathryn Sturgeon, her adviser, who worked very hard with us. I also thank my own adviser, Mohamed-Ali Soudi, in our Lords Whips’ Office, who has been an excellent support in getting this through. Externally, I thank Carers UK and particularly John Perryman and Emily Holzhausen, who have been great in providing briefing support. The Bill team has made sure that I have not fallen over—at least, not yet—so I thank them very much for their support. Finally, once again, I thank the Minister and his colleague, the noble Lord, Lord Johnson, who both supported the Bill going through.
Car Industry
Debate between Lord Fox and Earl of Minto(1 year, 7 months ago)
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The Earl of Minto (Con)
My Lords, the Government are acutely aware of the global challenges that the UK car industry faces. We have been leveraging private investment, alongside government support, to bring EV manufacturing to UK shores. The UK remains highly attractive; our workforce is among the most productive in Europe, and we excel in R&D and innovation. The DBT Secretary of State is aware of this issue facing the automotive sector, and is raising this with her counterparts in the EU.
Lord Fox (LD)
My Lords, on 2 March this year I asked a Question of the noble Lord, Lord Johnson, the Minister of State for the Department for Business and Trade. It was exactly on this issue. Unless the renegotiation is successful, the manufacturers of electric cars will not be able to export their vehicles to the European Union without a 22% tariff. The noble Lord mentioned Stellantis, which is one of the companies that yesterday made the point that this is very urgent. I did not get a sense of urgency from the Minister.
McKinsey estimates that between £5 billion and £18 billion will be required to deliver the domestic battery capacity we need in this country. Even if that money was available now, which it is not, and even if the plans were approved now, which they are not, there would not be a battery plant at the end of this year. Can the Minister reassure your Lordships that the Government are actually on this case, and that the urgency of this is understood, because the industry does not get that impression?
The Earl of Minto (Con)
The noble Lord makes some very good points. I assure him that the Government are absolutely on the case. We are not alone; the EU has challenges of its own.
The Earl of Minto (Con)
It is a quid pro quo. This whole question of battery manufacture has caught a number of countries, including us, where they do not particularly want to be. The Government have invested in this country; the joint investment with the OEMs is about £1.5 billion and we have put a further £2.8 billion in. That will probably not do it, but I assure the noble Lord that we are absolutely on it.
The Earl of Minto (Con)
Virtually all vehicle manufacture is integrated throughout a number of different countries, and I can see no reason why we would not continue to follow the route that we have done in the past, and that of course involves our relationship with the EU. I know that the Secretary of State has been in close contact on this very matter.
Lord Fox (LD)
The Minister raised the international supply chain. I apologise if I tell him something he already knows, but the electrification of motor vehicles is a completely new industry. It is not changing a factory that currently exists; it is building a new factory. It is creating an entirely new supply chain. The reason you got urgent cries from these Benches is that unless that happens now, it will never happen. Now is the moment that it has to happen. My noble friend mentioned huge public subsidy. That is what this country has to compete against. Does the Minister understand why this is urgent?
The Earl of Minto (Con)
I certainly do, and the Government do as well. The automotive industry in this country employs well over half a million people and is fundamental to the success of the country. There is no doubt that some of the brands we have operating in this country are global, future brands, and the Government are fully behind them.
Post Office Executives: Bonuses
Debate between Lord Fox and Earl of Minto(1 year, 7 months ago)
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The Minister of State, Department for Business and Trade (The Earl of Minto) (Con)
My Lords, no doubt this is a serious error in corporate judgment, coming on top of the Horizon scandal and the misery and false accusation that it caused. In this regrettable situation, the Post Office was right to apologise. This is an extremely serious issue, at a time when it is essential that the public have confidence that the culture and processes at the Post Office have been improved. Government has acted swiftly, calling for an immediate explanation from the Post Office of how this mistake occurred and what steps its board is taking in response.
Lord Fox (LD)
My Lords, I also welcome the noble Earl, Lord Minto, to his seat. Your Lordships did not need reminding, but this demonstrates again that the executive and board of the Post Office regard themselves as, somehow, a law apart from the rest of us and do not understand the situation that they have created for so many innocent victims. Yesterday, the Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Business and Trade, Kevin Hollinrake MP, said in the Commons that
“more needs to be done”.—[Official Report, Commons, 10/5/23; col. 341.]
So what is “more”, and when will it be done?
The Earl of Minto (Con)
Initially, Amanda Burton, the new chair of the Post Office remuneration committee and a non-executive director, will have two weeks to find out the precise facts about what has gone on here. At the same time, there is another review on the whole question of remuneration within the Post Office, because, clearly, something has gone very wrong. Within a couple of weeks, I hope that we will have a reasonable report with which we can come back to the House.