Economic Crime and Corporate Transparency

Debate between Lord Fox and Baroness Bowles of Berkhamsted

Committee stage
Thursday 27th April 2023 Grand Committee

[Baroness Bowles of Berkhamsted (LD)]

My Lords, the amendments in this group were inspired by the work of what we call in shorthand the Fraud Act review committee, chaired by the noble Baroness, Lady Morgan. Several members of the Committee were also on that Select Committee. At Second Reading, several of us spoke ahead of the noble Baroness and stole her thunder, so I am going to—

[Lord Fox (LD)]

Do the same again.

[Baroness Bowles of Berkhamsted (LD)]

In order not to do the same again, I will concentrate mainly on the mechanics of this first amendment, which is a regulatory failure to prevent amendment. Both amendments in the group are targeted at the same issue—that is, enablers or suppliers of services where the perpetrators, the fraudsters, as has already been explained in the earlier group by the noble Baroness, Lady Morgan, are not associated with the company. Largely, they will be customers, so they fall outside many of the provisions of the failure to prevent regime, as has already been discussed.

In the Select Committee, as well as recommending a failure to prevent criminal regime, we saw the benefit of regulators having powers to intervene, and we broadly favoured there being a comparable regulatory failure to prevent regime. We did not actually say that it was a recommendation because, at that stage, from the evidence that we had heard, we were led to believe—I think this is clear in the report—that the Online Safety Bill might provide a similar result. It is now clear that that is not the case, certainly not with regard to the telecoms operators, so I have tabled this amendment. My amendment has been put in what I call a “sunrise” form where the detail comes from the statutory instruments, which would enable the Government to do the right kind of consultation and specifically tailor the regimes. It could also be done in the light of deferring to whatever happens in all the relevant Bills presently going through, because there are aspects covered in the Financial Services and Markets Bill and the Online Safety Bill as well as this one.

The issue that we are aiming to cover is where the services provided by others are used for fraud, not in active participation by the service provider but in the passive sense, and they are not intervening even when they know that their services are being abused. Email, phone and text scams are the notable examples. While banks have been on the front line of defending against scams and are paying compensation where people have been tricked into transferring money—which is also now being legislated for—it is fair to say that we on the Select Committee were shocked by the complacency of the telecoms companies in particular. We were not convinced that enough, or indeed anything, was really being done. It seemed to be deliberate negligence; there is no other way to explain it.

My amendments would enable the Government to confer on regulators a duty and a power relating to failure to prevent and failure to prevent facilitation of fraud. I am sure that the Minister will say that regulators generally have powers concerning fraud in their sectors already; the Law Commission’s report referenced the case of sewage discharges and Southern Water. However, fraud is not generally stated in regulators’ headline duties. For example, it does not appear in the objectives or principles of the Financial Conduct Authority, which claimed in the instances of fraud around the RBS Global Restructuring Group to be powerless to intervene, although fraud was pretty clear, because business lending was outside the scope of the regulatory envelope.

National Security and Investment Bill

Debate between Lord Fox and Baroness Bowles of Berkhamsted

Committee stage & Lords Hansard
Tuesday 2nd March 2021 Grand Committee

[Baroness Bowles of Berkhamsted (LD) [V]]

My Lords, it is always very interesting to follow the noble Lord, Lord Lansley. He is approaching this partly in a similar way to me and partly in a different way. I was, and still am, attracted to the notion of trying to get this time of uncertainty down from five years to two. Part of what I would say to the noble Lord is that, if it is going to take five years to work out who might actually have bought something, that is something we should look at in its own right. If you cannot work out whether somebody is hostile and they have had it for five years, you have missed the boat if it is a question of whether they have learned the technology and found out things you do not want them to find out.

I would be interested to hear from the Minister the reasoning behind the length of the period. It could not really be due to a workload of investigating, because one must presume some sort of steady state pipeline with adequate staffing, but how much of it is fear that something new is not recognisable as having a security application until some time later. That thought was going through my mind: was there fear about missing things? This goes back to one of the issues I flagged at Second Reading about sifting being done by the right kind of skilled people—those who have the right kind of applied science or engineering knowledge, plus knowledge of potential usage in national security fields.

I have to say, these things are not necessarily all that obvious. I have experience of working as a patent attorney in the field of defence. I have worked with people whose job it was to invent—put two and two together and have something inventive at the end of it. If you work in a field where those kinds of things are deemed inventive, you will be very short of the people who have that kind of knowledge because, for the main part, they will probably want to be involved in more interesting and economically useful things than participating in what seems to be an overwide fish-sorting process, as it has been termed. I am turning this back to the Minister. On volume, if you cast the net wide, will you have sufficiently skilled people to be able to do the sorting, or will you find that important fish get missed? Will you then be trying to do things to backtrack on what has not been done or give yourself more time to do things?

That is a slightly different take. I know that there are some safeguards in there, but five years is quite a long time to live with uncertainty. If that uncertainty comes about because of ownership, one should sort the ownership or shareholding issues; I am actually among those people who think that we should have a lot more transparency on those kinds of things.

[Lord Fox (LD)]

My Lords, in his excellent intervention, the noble Lord, Lord Hodgson, started out by calling for clarity. We need some clarity on the wording of this part of the Bill because a number of different interpretations have emerged. I must confess, my interpretation is similar to that of the noble Lord; by the way, we would seem to be backed up by the Law Society, which took the same view. If the Government’s intention is something different, some different words need to be used to put that forward.

Assuming that, to start with, the intention was as the noble Lord, Lord Hodgson, set out, his counter to that was very clear. I have been involved in lots of what is known as integration, which involves bringing two companies together when one has bought another. Five years is well past the point at which you would find it very difficult to unmake that company. Indeed, the entire product life cycle in the sort of industries we are talking about here is probably about two years, so they will have marched through two and a half product life cycles by the time the five-year period expires.

In a way, I hope that the Government’s intention is more closely aligned to that of the noble Lord, Lord Lansley. If that is the case, I have similar thoughts to the noble Baroness, Lady Bowles. How long do you need to leave the stable door open before the horse has definitely bolted? To me, five years seems much too long for that bolting to occur; two years is probably long enough in that respect. However, if, on the other hand, the Government’s intention is to offer an opportunity for 20:20 hindsight—in other words, the world changes and, looking back over our shoulder, that deal five years ago now does not look like such a clever deal for the nation and we want to unmake it—that is clearly unfair on investors and others but might perhaps be fair to the country.

We need a real understanding of what the Government’s intention was, and the Government need to understand that their intention needs to be articulated in a way that the outside world can understand.

Corporate Insolvency and Governance Bill

Debate between Lord Fox and Baroness Bowles of Berkhamsted

Report stage & Report stage (Hansard) & Report stage (Hansard): House of Lords
Tuesday 23rd June 2020 Lords Chamber

[Lord Fox]

My Lords, very briefly, it seems that the solution of the noble Lord, Lord Hodgson, is very elegant, and, like the noble Lord, Lord Vaux, I am struggling to find out why the Government might not accept it. One of the things that has come up on a number of occasions is the need for speed for both the Bill and decision-making: “We do not have time to talk to the workers”; “We do not have time to do this.” This is an opportunity to take one moment out and review whether this move—a pre-pack—is in the best interests of all concerned. I cannot see why the Government would not support it, and I expect that the Minister will stand up and wholeheartedly embrace Amendment 45 shortly.

[Baroness Bowles of Berkhamsted [V]]

My Lords, I supported the pre-pack amendments in Committee and have done so again. The reason for the amendment in the name of the noble Lord, Lord Hodgson, is simple: reference to the pool is not happening, and bad pre-packs are. Like others, I do not consider all pre-packs to be bad, but it is unquestionable that some bad deals are going on.

The Government are reinstating a provision to give themselves powers that have recently lapsed. I do not wish to prevent that but, as the noble Lord, Lord Hodgson, said, that power has already lain for too long—for five years—without regulations being forthcoming. Due to coronavirus, more deals and insolvencies are likely, and there will be horrid cases, as the noble Lord, Lord Hodgson, said. The noble Lord, Lord Vaux, also reminded us again of the storm that is about to come—or the “tsunami”, as my noble friend Lord Palmer said. Every day we already hear of more, and some are a rip-off of creditors, as the noble Lord, Lord Mendelsohn, said in Committee and as the noble Lord, Lord Vaux, reminded us. The evidence is that insolvency practitioners can easily tick boxes to cover themselves. It is happening.

This amendment is simple and complete: use the panel that has been set up. In Committee the Minister was critical of the fact that the panel is set up in a light-touch way rather than having a regulatory power, but it is like that because government wanted it that way. If the Government want to come forward with powers for ARGA to take over the job—and to make ARGA happy—I will be there in support. But that is not here now, and nor are other regulations. So let us not hurt the public still further by having the recovery from Covid littered with scandals of cosy and inappropriate pre-packs. This is another feature of how the unfairness built into the moratorium will work, with pressure for restructuring, where the big winners will be the financiers. The least we can do is to have some assurance that the deal meets the standard of reasonableness.

Corporate Insolvency and Governance Bill

Debate between Lord Fox and Baroness Bowles of Berkhamsted

Committee stage & Committee: 1st sitting (Hansard) & Committee: 1st sitting (Hansard): House of Lords
Tuesday 16th June 2020 Lords Chamber

[Lord Fox]

My Lords, I associate myself with some of the comments of the noble Lord, Lord Hain, around works councils. In my past life, working with works councils, particularly in the Netherlands and in Germany, I found them to be a positive, long-term force within companies. An earlier speaker mentioned that in private sector businesses, unions have low representation, which is why works councils should be important in this country, but on departing the European Union I understand that the Government are going to reduce or negate the need for companies to have works councils, which is something to be regretted. What is also to be regretted is that we cannot have a proper debate on these amendments, which means that Report will inevitably have to go on longer.

[Baroness Bowles of Berkhamsted [V]]

My Lords, I support the two amendments in the name of the noble Lord, Lord Vaux, that include changes to the definitions of the smallest businesses and a new definition to help first-year businesses. These both seem sensible. We have had a lot of instances in the various coronavirus reliefs where help is not extended to everywhere that might reasonably have been covered; therefore, examination of definitions in the light of that and other experiences seems worth while.