Business of the House

Debate between Lord Foulkes of Cumnock and Lord Taylor of Holbeach

Thursday 4th April 2019 Lords Chamber

[Lord Foulkes of Cumnock]

My Lords, Back-Benchers have a right to speak as well on this matter. I have sat through every minute of today’s debate and have seen the filibustering tactics of some of the Members opposite. The Government Chief Whip said that he expects the subsequent stages of the Bill to be concluded on Monday. As he knows, they have to be concluded by a certain time. Is he giving a guarantee that they will be concluded by that time? Otherwise, we will be double-crossed again.

[Lord Taylor of Holbeach]

I have had the word of my companions in the usual channels on conduct. I have also had the word of a number of my colleagues behind me. I assure the noble Lord that business will be conducted in a proper manner that is fitting to this House, which is trying to do its best to deal with an important piece of legislation. I must also advise—as the noble Baroness probably recognises—that it is necessary for us to move the Business of the House Motion. It will not be opposed by us.

The House of Commons will remain open until it receives a message from this House on Monday. There is no time limit, but there is obviously a moment of convenience for the House. I suggest that we would look to finish around 8 pm, because I am fairly certain that amendments will be made to the Bill during Committee, after which we have Report and Third Reading. So this agreement has not been made out of the air; it has been made in consultation with all aspects of the usual channels here and in the House of Commons, and so I spoke with authority when I gave my statement. I confirm that it is necessary for us to proceed, to have the Business of the House Motion pressed by the noble Baroness in whose name it stands.

Arrangement of Business

Debate between Lord Foulkes of Cumnock and Lord Taylor of Holbeach

Monday 25th March 2019 Lords Chamber

[Lord Taylor of Holbeach (Con)]

My Lords, it might be useful to the House if I make a brief statement about today’s business.

As the House will be aware, the House of Commons will hear a Statement from my right honourable friend the Prime Minister beginning at 3.30 pm. Following usual channel discussions this morning, I suggest that it will be for the convenience of those taking part in today’s debate in the House if we adjourn during pleasure to await the opening exchanges on the Prime Minister’s Statement. My noble friend the Leader will then repeat the Statement and, following 20 minutes of Back-Bench questions and answers, we will move immediately to the debate. We will seek to ensure that those who are not signed up to speak are given priority when intervening on the repeated Statement. I beg to move that the House do now adjourn during pleasure and, in moving this Motion, I suggest that we do not reconvene before 4.30 pm.

[Lord Foulkes of Cumnock (Lab Co-op)]

My Lords, I just want to be sure that the House will adjourn until 4.30 pm, because the Government Chief Whip did not quite say that. The Lord Speaker did but, if it is not to be exactly 4.30 pm, we will need some alert.

[Lord Taylor of Holbeach]

I said not before 4.30 pm. I hope that that is clear. It means that if the exchanges in the House of Commons go on for longer, we will not reconvene until the initial exchanges are over.

[Lord Foulkes of Cumnock]

My Lords, that is not at all satisfactory. If the exchanges drag on—the Speaker has a tendency to allow them to go on and on—we will not know exactly when to reconvene and will be hanging around. Will there be an alert about when we are to reconvene, or will we reconvene at 4.30 pm? We need to know precisely when we have to be back.

[Lord Taylor of Holbeach]

If it helps the noble Lord, I will make sure that we are here at 4.30 pm.

Business of the House

Debate between Lord Foulkes of Cumnock and Lord Taylor of Holbeach

Tuesday 12th March 2019 Lords Chamber

[Lord Taylor of Holbeach (Con)]

My Lords, I thought it might be convenient for me to say a word about today’s business. We will repeat the Attorney-General’s Statement after the Report stage of the Healthcare (International Arrangements) Bill. We will then have two important Northern Ireland Bills to consider this afternoon. A small number of amendments have been tabled to the regional rates and energy Bill. While both Bills are urgent, as my noble friend the Leader of the House made clear last Thursday, we will ensure that proper time is made available for the consideration of any amendments. The usual channels have therefore agreed to make time available next Tuesday, 19 March, for the Committee stage of the regional rates and energy Bill and its remaining stages. The anticipation and adjustments Bill is a money Bill, so we intend to complete the remaining stages formally and without amendment, in the normal way, following Second Reading today.

[Lord Foulkes of Cumnock (Lab Co-op)]

My Lords, I am grateful to the Government Chief Whip for making a business announcement. Will he deal with a point that I put to a Minister the other day—who said that it was not for his pay grade but up to the Chief Whip? When does he expect this Session to end, the House to be prorogued and the Queen’s Speech to take place?

[Lord Taylor of Holbeach]

I do not know.

House of Lords: Sittings

Debate between Lord Foulkes of Cumnock and Lord Taylor of Holbeach

Wednesday 9th January 2019 Lords Chamber

[Lord Foulkes of Cumnock (Lab Co-op)]

My Lords, I beg to move the Motion in my name on the Order Paper. A number of Members have asked me why I have put down these particular dates. I have put them down because they are the dates for the February Recess and the Easter Recess already announced for the House of Commons. I thought it was strange that the House of Commons, the primary House, in this Parliament is able to announce its recess dates and we are not. It just seems crazy. In both Houses there is a qualification: it is always subject to the progress of legislation. That is understood. It is accepted that things can change, but at least it gives us some degree of potential certainty.

I do not always agree with my noble friend Lord Grocott on everything, but on this I agree with him wholly. When he was Chief Whip, he ensured that both Houses of this Parliament met and went into recess at the same time, so that it was Parliament that was sitting, not just one House or the other. Unless we take a decision, there is uncertainty not just for Members—a lot of whom have already gone into their whips’ offices asking when the recesses will be—but for the staff. We have to have some concern for the staff of this House and for the uncertainty that it creates for them.

I have been looking back over the last 15 years, and the February and Easter Recess dates are normally announced in October or, at the very latest, November of the previous year to give us some degree of certainty. I know that at the moment there is a particular uncertainty about the legislation—I do not need to go into that; everyone knows it—but of course it works both ways, and it works for both Houses.

The Government Chief Whip could have pre-empted my moving this Motion today by making an announcement in the normal way. As he has not done so, I am minded to let the House decide on its own recesses. That would be self-regulation at its best.

[Lord Taylor of Holbeach (Con)]

My Lords, this is really not how we agree on or give notification of our recess dates. Although I fully understand the concerns of the noble Lord, Lord Foulkes, and others, I cannot support the Motion before the House and ask others not to do so either. As the House has heard, most recently during Question Time on Monday, there will be a significant amount of legislation before the House before the end of March, and I do not think it sensible to confirm recess dates before then.

I have been up front with other members of the usual channels. As I indicated to them at the end of December, all our recess dates are subject to the progress of business. I intend, if possible, to provide for a long weekend during February, but I anticipate that the House will need to sit on days when the Commons is not sitting. The House has an important part to play in scrutinising critical legislation and we all know that we will need to do that during February and March. I hope to be able to confirm our plans for Easter soon, and I hope that that will be a fortnight’s recess, but, again, I cannot guarantee that the dates will match those of the Commons.

I am grateful to everyone for their patience and understanding but, at this critical point for all of us, we need to put the important scrutiny work of the House first, even where it causes personal inconvenience. I do not think that I have to point out to noble Lords how it would appear to members of the public if the House were to vote to give itself a holiday at this juncture.

I give an undertaking to come back to the House at the earliest opportunity to make an announcement in the usual way. On that basis, I ask the noble Lord to withdraw his Motion. If he does not feel able to do so, I ask noble Lords to think very carefully before supporting him in the Lobby today.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Taylor of Holbeach]

My Lords, that is my intention: that we should create the time to do our business properly.

[Lord Foulkes of Cumnock]

My Lords, I know that the Government Chief Whip has a life outside this place: I see him from time to time on the plane to Bergerac. But I assure him that I am not moving this because of any personal inconvenience to individual or collective Members of Parliament. All the points he made apply equally to the House of Commons—all of them. They can be recalled, as can we, if urgently needed; indeed my noble friend Lord Adonis suggested late last year that we could be recalled if necessary. I have known my good noble friend Lord McAvoy since we were very young councillors together: he in Glasgow, me in Edinburgh, and we still got on. I do not want to upset him, but a number of people have said to me that too many decisions in this House are made by the usual channels, without consulting individual Members or considering what they think. I suggest that this is an opportunity for individual Members to make a decision. We have been told we may get a weekend, but we have not even been told which weekend. I would like to give Members the opportunity of a free vote on this, and I hope it will be a free vote.

European Union (Withdrawal) Bill

Debate between Lord Foulkes of Cumnock and Lord Taylor of Holbeach

Committee: 9th sitting (Hansard): House of Lords
Wednesday 21st March 2018 Lords Chamber

[The Deputy Chairman of Committees]

I think the Contents have it.

[Lord Taylor of Holbeach]

My Lords, perhaps I may explain. An Urgent Question has to be repeated at about 6 pm. Rather than have that at a ridiculously late hour, we will adjourn the House until 6 pm. That will provide an opportunity for noble Lords to get refreshment and then we will be able to deal with the next group in toto and without interruption. I think that is the right way to go about it. I have discussed it around the Chamber, as the noble Lord will know.

[Lord Foulkes of Cumnock]

My point is that we are all here. We have been taking part in a debate. Everyone who wants to take part in the next group is here and it seems sensible to continue. I do not understand.

Arrangement of Business

Debate between Lord Foulkes of Cumnock and Lord Taylor of Holbeach

Wednesday 28th February 2018 Lords Chamber

[Lord Taylor of Holbeach (Con)]

My Lords, before we move on to day three of the Committee stage on the Bill, now might be a convenient point for me to say a word about next week.

Noble Lords will be aware that we have made steady progress on the Bill, but it has been significantly short of the targets we have set. On the part of the Government, let me say that we recognise that the House has approached the Bill in the spirit of genuine scrutiny, but we also need to continue to make progress with this important Bill. With the agreement of the usual channels, I have therefore arranged for the House to sit early on Wednesday 7 March, at 11 am. It would not be my intention to sit late on that day. My noble friend the Leader of the House will move a business Motion tomorrow to enable Questions to be taken at their normal time of 3 pm.

Noble Lords may also notice that we have postponed the Questions for Short Debate which were scheduled as dinner break business for this week and next. I am grateful for the co-operation and good will of all those who had tabled these debates. My office will endeavour to offer them suitable alternatives. It is my intention that, should progress allow and should those involved desire it, we should be able to ensure that all those speaking on the Bill have a short break at a convenient point in lieu of dinner break business and, where necessary, we will adjourn the House during pleasure. This will of course be kept under review by the usual channels as the Bill progresses. I am grateful for their continued constructive spirit.

Finally, I have another announcement to make. Members arriving early for Questions today may have already visited the Robing Room, where the House authorities have arranged the annual Members’ open day. Stands cover the full gamut of services available to Members and it is open to all Members and their staff. I end my statement by whole heartedly recommending that all noble Lords find time to pay a visit. They may be advised to wrap up well.

[Lord Foulkes of Cumnock (Lab)]

Perhaps I may ask the Government Chief Whip a question in relation to his original statement. He clearly indicated that, on days when we meet in the morning such as next Wednesday, he would not expect us to continue late into that evening. Could he then explain why it is that Deputy Speakers are being asked for their availability after 10 o’clock next Wednesday?

[Lord Taylor of Holbeach]

The noble Lord will know that the House has to take all precautions. We are not expecting to sit late. The spirit in which I have been discussing this within the usual channels is that we hope to see the Bill move a bit faster than it has been and, by giving it extra time, Members will have the opportunity to scrutinise it properly. However, it is often the case that the House has to sit on Bills after 10 o’clock in the evening. It is not my intention to do so, but I am suggesting that it may suit the House that that is the case.

Scotland Bill

Debate between Lord Foulkes of Cumnock and Lord Taylor of Holbeach

Wednesday 24th February 2016 Lords Chamber

[Lord Foulkes of Cumnock]

This is duplicity by the Government, and it really needs to be sorted out. I have been sitting quietly saying almost nothing—

[Lord Taylor of Holbeach (Con)]

Will the noble Lord give way? I had hoped to be able to discuss this in an orderly fashion, and I apologise if it has taken longer than the House would expect. I fully realise the pressure under which the House has been dealing with this Bill in general. Although we started the Bill an awfully long time ago—I think it was November when we had Second Reading—we have been in an expectant state for some days. Such is the situation that I recognise that noble Lords will want a little more time on Monday on those groups of amendments that deal with the fiscal framework. I understand that. I think it is the agreement of all in the usual channels that this would be a satisfactory way of dealing with it. It will be an informal agreement, with no resolution of the House, but I can announce it to those here today who I know are interested in this matter.

I thank my noble friend Lord Younger for holding the fort, but I happened to see the situation in which he was placed and I thought it would help matters if I made the position of the Government clear in this respect now. Many noble Lords involved in this debate are used to absorbing complex documents very quickly—that is why they are here—and I hope they will take the opportunity of the weekend to swot up, so that when we meet on Monday to discuss those aspects of the Bill, they will be in a position to add to our debate in a constructive way.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Taylor of Holbeach]

I am sorry: did I not make that clear? Although there will be no formal resolution to this effect, on those groups of amendments to which the fiscal framework applies, we will adopt those rules which we normally have in Committee. If that is agreed across the House, I am quite happy with that. My noble friend must have misheard what I was saying. I may not have been in the Chamber, but I was listening to the debate.

[Lord Foulkes of Cumnock]

As the person who initially raised it, and as one of the usual troublemakers, I fully accept what the Chief Whip has said. That is what we all understood was to be the case. As long as the discussion on the fiscal framework and related matters can be, informally, treated as if it were Committee rather than Report, I am sure that that is the way forward.

Energy Bill [HL]

Debate between Lord Foulkes of Cumnock and Lord Taylor of Holbeach

Monday 7th September 2015 Lords Chamber

[Lord Foulkes of Cumnock (Lab)]

My Lords, I should like to say a word in support of my noble friend Lady Worthington because this is not just an isolated example of the Government treating this House, and Parliament, in a cavalier fashion. If I may give another example, next week we were due to have a debate on English votes for English laws. It was promised again and again by the Leader of the House, the noble Baroness, Lady Stowell—I notice that she has disappeared—yet it has been switched. We are to have a debate on the size of the House, which is not an immediately urgent matter, yet the Commons will make a decision at some point about English votes for English laws and we were given the assurance that we would be able to feed into that. My understanding—I hope that the Chief Whip will answer this—is that the decision to move the debate on English votes for English laws off the agenda for next week was taken unilaterally by the Government and that when the Opposition were consulted, we said that we did not want to change. We wanted to have the English votes for English laws debate because it was promised to this House. That is another example of the cavalier way in which the Government treat this House, wanting to bulldoze their business through. It is about time that some people in this House stood up and said that Parliament has a responsibility to challenge the Government. The Leader of the House may think that we should come in only one day a week when we want to say a few words but we are here to hold the Government to account.

[Lord Taylor of Holbeach (Con)]

The noble Lord has asked that I say something about the decision to change the agenda for the coming two weeks to allow the House to discuss the whole business of its membership. I think the House is acutely conscious of the issues raised in the media and by other noble Lords. I felt it was right and proper, as did the Leader of the House, that we should have an opportunity to debate this while we are here. As the noble Lord will know, we had promised a debate on EVEL. He made a point about that. Subsequently, this House decided to support very strongly a Motion from the noble Lord, Lord Butler, for a Joint Committee of both Houses to consider this matter. There has been no reply to this Motion from the House of Commons and, in the absence of a reply, if I am honest, there is not much that the Government could say in this House on this issue at this time.

I felt it was proper that we should deal with something of immediate concern to this House. That is why the Leader informed all sides of the House. There were consultations and there were reservations about changing business, but nobody does this freely or without proper consideration of what is right and proper. I am sure all noble Lords are pleased that we will have the opportunity to debate in full the future of this House and its future reform in terms of the Motion tabled by the Government and the Motions of the noble Lord, Lord Pearson, and the noble Lord, Lord Steel, which will be debated at the same time next Tuesday.

Immigration Bill

Debate between Lord Foulkes of Cumnock and Lord Taylor of Holbeach

Thursday 3rd April 2014 Lords Chamber

[Lord Taylor of Holbeach]

That the Bill be now considered further on Report.

[Lord Foulkes of Cumnock (Lab)]

My Lords, before we consider this legislation, perhaps the noble Lord the Leader of the House or the government Chief Whip can explain why we are taking government legislation on a Thursday when we have been given four weeks for Easter and we will not be sitting for a week in which the House of Commons is sitting. Will she confirm that Prorogation will not take place until 21 May, as already announced, and not earlier as rumoured? This House is not here just to consider government legislation; it is here to debate the issues of the day and to hold the Government to account.

Anti-social Behaviour, Crime and Policing Bill

Debate between Lord Foulkes of Cumnock and Lord Taylor of Holbeach

Wednesday 4th December 2013 Lords Chamber

[Lord Foulkes of Cumnock]

My Lords, the one point on which I totally agree with the Minister is that it has been a useful debate. I am really grateful for the eloquent and powerful support that the amendment has received from the noble Lord, Lord Bradshaw, my noble friends Lord Rosser and Lord Faulkner—before he was elevated to his position as Deputy Chairman—and the noble Baroness, Lady Coussins.

I am deeply disappointed that the noble Lord, Lord Condon, who eloquently argued the case that there should be a special offence of assault of a police officer, does not agree that that should also apply to shop workers who are effectively apprehending criminals on behalf of the police. They are doing the same job as the police are doing and ought to have the same kind of treatment.

[Lord Taylor of Holbeach]

May I explain that particular discrepancy? We do not ask of people in their normal employment that they place themselves in positions of danger in dealing with potentially violent incidents. We do ask that of the police. That is why all Governments through time have conceded that a special task is imposed on serving officers of the police in the conduct of their duty. That is the reason for that special offence.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Foulkes of Cumnock]

But shopkeepers and others are put in the position where they are not able to get away, as my noble friend Lord Rosser said. They are doing this in the course of their duty and their employment. They are apprehending shoplifters. That is what some shop workers are trained to do. They know they have to do that as part of their responsibility. They are doing the work, effectively, of a police officer. We can come back to that.

The Minister said that this has not been agreed on two occasions in the House of Commons so there should be no surprise that he will not accept it here. But this is a revising Chamber. What are we here for if not to consider what comes from the Commons and make suggestions, proposals and amendments? I hope that that argument will not be used completely as a barrier, otherwise we might as well all go home.

My noble friend Lord Rosser underlined this issue when he said again and again that we are talking about people who, in the course of their work, cannot walk away. The noble Baroness, Lady Hamwee, said that she avoided the trains back from Manchester on which there were football supporters because she did not want to be assaulted. With respect, she can avoid those trains, but the workers on those trains cannot avoid them. They have to be there to run the trains and collect the tickets. That is the difference, and I hope that the noble Baroness, Lady Hamwee, who has tabled a lot of amendments to the Bill, will consider that carefully.

[Lord Taylor of Holbeach]

Would the noble Lord consider an assault on the noble Baroness, Lady Hamwee, on a train to be less severe than an assault on someone employed to work on the train? In effect, the noble Lord seeks to introduce a special measure for someone who is assaulted in the course of their work. My argument is that assault is wrong; it is a crime whoever is the victim. Let us keep it simple and not complicate this with what people are doing at the particular time they are assaulted.

[Lord Foulkes of Cumnock]

I am not saying that. It would probably be even more heinous if the noble Baroness, Lady Hamwee, was attacked. However, as she has told us, she can avoid those trains on a Saturday afternoon: the workers on the trains cannot. I do not want to prolong the debate as there are other important amendments.

Having heard the arguments, I am happy, between now and a later stage, to consider, with my noble friends on the Front Bench, the unions and others, what the Minister has said, particularly his helpful point about drawing this debate to the attention of the police and Crown Prosecution Service. The amendment might be revised or, as the noble Lord, Lord Condon, suggested, we might look at narrowing it down to deal with people in particular circumstances. I hope I will have the opportunity to bring it back on Report and test the view of the whole House. Meanwhile, I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.

Security Services: Supervision

Debate between Lord Foulkes of Cumnock and Lord Taylor of Holbeach

Thursday 7th November 2013 Lords Chamber

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Home Office (Lord Taylor of Holbeach) (Con)]

My Lords, I join other noble Lords in thanking the noble Lord, Lord Soley, for presenting this topic for debate, and I am grateful to all noble Lords who spoke so eloquently in this debate. I think that noble Lords will understand that, in line with the practice of successive Governments, I shall not comment on specific issues relating to the work of the intelligence agencies. I shall focus on the breadth and depth of supervision of the UK’s intelligence agencies, and the fact that they are second to none and—given recent reforms extending parliamentary oversight, of which this House is very much aware—fit for purpose.

Secret intelligence helps protect national security, tackle terrorists and stop criminals. But this does not mean the activities of the intelligence services go unchecked. Successive Governments have rightly introduced measures to ensure that the use of intrusive powers needed to obtain intelligence are governed by a strict legal and policy framework compatible with the Human Rights Act. This ensures that intelligence activities are authorised, necessary and proportionate, and provides robust statutory oversight.

Oversight starts within the intelligence agencies themselves, which enforce rigorous internal controls. Their recruitment and training procedures are designed to ensure that those operating within them can be trusted to do so lawfully and ethically. A culture of compliance with the letter and spirit of the law pervades everything they do. Noble Lords have rightly paid tribute to the work of those in the intelligence agencies. In their most recent reports, both the Intelligence Services Commissioner and the Interception of Communications Commissioner commended the integrity and professionalism of the agencies’ staff.

In addition, of course, Secretaries of State are accountable to Parliament and the public for the agencies’ actions. They take decisions on whether to authorise the use of intrusive powers by the intelligence agencies. Senior members of the judiciary are appointed as Interception of Communications and Intelligence Services Commissioners to oversee the process of authorisation of intelligence activity, which includes reviewing the decisions of Secretaries of State and reporting to the Prime Minister on their work.

Several honourable Members in the other place recently urged the commissioners to play a more visible role. I agree. Oversight must be seen to be effective. That is why, as noble Lords mentioned—indeed, the noble Lord, Lord Reid of Cardowan, gave us an up-to-date briefing on what was going on down the other end—the Intelligence and Security Committee is, for the first time, holding an open evidence session with the three heads of the intelligence agencies. It is because of this landmark occasion that the noble Lord, Lord Butler of Brockwell, as a member of the ISC, told me that, contrary to his wish, he would not be able to participate in today’s debate. However, we should remember that so much of the commissioners’ work—and, of course, that of the ISC—involves extremely sensitive information and that there will be limits to what they can responsibly report on publicly.

Separately, the Intelligence and Security Committee examines the policy, administration, past operations and expenditure of the intelligence agencies. Noble Lords will remember that earlier this year the Justice and Security Act significantly reformed and strengthened the committee’s powers. As a result of that Act the intelligence agencies are more accountable to Parliament and no longer have the ability to withhold information from the ISC. The new ISC has a broader remit, extra powers to consider past operational activity, and twice the resources. Those reforms were not conjured from thin air but followed public consultation on the best way to modernise judicial, independent and parliamentary scrutiny of the intelligence agencies, while allowing them to get on with keeping us safe.

The noble Lord, Lord Foulkes of Cumnock, asked what the composition of the ISC will be and how it will be brought together. I can say that with the new appointments process, although the PM nominates the members after consultation with the Leader of the Opposition, Parliament will appoint the ISC. The reforms in the Justice and Security Act mean that the ISC will itself select its chair. Should the committee wish to nominate a member of the Opposition as the chair, it will be free to do so. I hope that that will reassure the noble Lord.

[Lord Foulkes of Cumnock]

I am grateful to the Minister for that. However, can he clear up the point I raised about the balance of membership between the two Houses? As I understand it, we are being required to provide 50% of the running costs. We are also used to Joint Committees of both Houses having roughly equal membership. Can he assure us that that will be the case with this committee?

[Lord Taylor of Holbeach]

If I sought to reassure the noble Lord, I might make a mistake. However, I will check that out and write to him. The noble Lord makes a very good point as a loyal Member of this House, and I hope that I will be able to give him a positive answer.

We have to give these new arrangements time to bed down and to prove their effectiveness. I am certain that the committee will succeed in giving Parliament and the public confidence that the Executive and the agencies are properly held to account. As the noble Lord, Lord Soley, said, the whole business of keeping legislation up to date is a matter for the House authorities, and he made an interesting suggestion about how we can keep pace with technical change. However, that is a matter not only for the Government but for the House authorities as well.

Supervision does not stop with the ISC. The courts provide an independent avenue for anyone who wishes to complain about intelligence activity. Anyone who feels that they have been subject to improper use of intrusive powers by the intelligence agencies can complain to the Investigatory Powers Tribunal, which provides independent judicial oversight. If it decides that legislation has been breached or human rights infringed, it can quash warrants, order the destruction of records and award financial compensation.

One need only look at the range of activity this year alone to see that the system works. The ISC has published reports on foreign involvement in UK critical national infrastructure, communications data, and GCHQ’s alleged activity in relation to PRISM. It is now reviewing the tragic killing in Woolwich in May and will begin another review next year into intelligence legislation, which may assist with the point made by the noble Lord, Lord Soley. The Interception Commissioner is investigating reports related to interception following the Snowden leaks. A judicial review of the police’s decision to stop David Miranda in August is currently being heard by the courts, and the independent reviewer of terrorism legislation—David Anderson QC—will then report on the police’s use of terrorism powers in that case.

The Investigatory Powers Tribunal is considering several cases arising from the Snowden leaks that have been brought by parties including Liberty and Privacy International. If these investigations and legal cases lead to criticisms, recommendations for change, or adverse judgments, the Government will listen, reflect and respond. This is how effective oversight works, and this is how we can best ensure that Parliament and the public can have confidence in the work of intelligence agencies while protecting the secrets that need to remain secret.

I will now comment on some of the points made by noble Lords in the course of the debate. I welcomed all the contributions, which were good. I do not necessarily share the views of my noble friend Lord Blencathra on the proportionality of different levels of terrorism. I thank the pre-legislative Joint Committee on the draft Communications Data Bill, which did Parliament great justice in its scrutiny. The ISC undertook similar scrutiny of that Bill; it took evidence from the intelligence agencies and was briefed on GCHQ capabilities in this area. From its informed position, it considered there was still a communications gap requiring legislation. The noble Lord, Lord Reid of Cardowan, paid right and proper tribute—

EU: Police and Criminal Justice Measures

Debate between Lord Foulkes of Cumnock and Lord Taylor of Holbeach

Tuesday 23rd July 2013 Lords Chamber

[Lord Taylor of Holbeach]

There will be a deadline of 31 May. The Government will make the decision but it will be up to Parliament to endorse it in a vote after 31 May. This is a matter where the Government and Parliament will be in constant dialogue. As I have said, there will be a debate in this House, I hope, in November. I hope that noble Lords will be furnished with arguments by the committee of this House that will enable us to discuss this issue properly at that time.

This has been a good debate. This Government are not frightened of criticism and are prepared to seek to answer it. The choice before us is whether we exercise the opt-out and rejoin measures, where it is in the national interest to do so, or we do nothing. I am firmly of the view that we should opt out, but it is most certainly in the national interest to seek to rejoin measures that help to combat cross-border crime and keep our country safe. I hope that the House will also endorse the measures in Command Paper 8671 and strengthen the Government’s negotiating hand. I know that the European Union Committee can further help the Government and this House by further scrutinising the measures that it feels the Government should rejoin. This can only enhance the debate. I am very pleased that the terms of today’s Motion have encouraged the noble Lord, Lord Hannay, not to press his amendment. I hope that I have also shown that the Government are prepared to listen to these concerns.

[Lord Foulkes of Cumnock]

My Lords—

[Lord Taylor of Holbeach]

I am sorry; I am not going to give way. I have some important information for the House. The brief I had that said that the vote would be after 31 May was incorrect. It has now been corrected. The vote will be before 31 May, which I am sure reassures noble Lords. It certainly makes my life a little easier, if I may say so.

I hope that the noble Lord will forgive me. It is late and I am coming to the end of my remarks. There will be another vote before we formally apply to rejoin these measures. Today is not the end of the process but just a step along the road. I hope that noble Lords will support the position set out by the Government. It gives us a chance to be involved in a continuing discussion on this issue. I commend the Motion in the name of my noble friend to the House.

Europol Regulation: European Union Opt-In

Debate between Lord Foulkes of Cumnock and Lord Taylor of Holbeach

Monday 1st July 2013 Lords Chamber

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Home Office (Lord Taylor of Holbeach)]

My Lords, I am grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Hannay, and the European Union Committee for calling this debate. I am pleased that we have had such a wide-ranging discussion, although some noble Lords have made a little bit of fun with expressions such as “hokey-cokey”. At bottom, the debate has been firmly rooted in the issues that the Government are having to consider and deliberate on. I think that noble Lords have taken their cue from the report and I am therefore extremely grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Hannay, and his committee for the clarity with which the report presents the issues before the Government.

I must say right now that the Government have not decided whether to opt in to the measure at this stage. The arguments are finely balanced. I do not feel that this decision has been overshadowed by any other decision which is also before the Government at this time. The point made in the committee’s report is that Europol and its future is an entirely separate issue. The noble Lords, Lord Judd and Lord Foulkes, referred to the importance of Europol in the fight against cross-border crime.

We also need to protect the independence of our own law enforcement agencies and there are elements in the draft measure which cause us concern. We therefore need to decide whether it would be better to opt in at this stage and use our vote in the negotiations to try to improve the proposal or to stay out for now and reconsider our position once the final text is agreed. Both options are open to us.

In saying that, I want to be clear that we strongly support Europol as it currently operates. As noble Lords have pointed out, we work very closely with it in tackling many serious offences, such as people smuggling and online child abuse. My noble friend Lord Sharkey gave some detailed examples of where Europol has been important in tackling cross-border crime affecting this country. Indeed, the noble Baroness, Lady Smith, also recognised that point of view. Europol provides real benefits to our law enforcement agencies. It is an effective and well run organisation with strong leadership. Indeed, as noble Lords have pointed out, with a Briton as its director, the UK plays an important part.

However, we are worried that some aspects of the new proposals may risk making our law enforcement agencies accountable to Europol, which would be a different thing. Policing is a core function of a sovereign country and must remain a member state responsibility. Perhaps I may illustrate this with an example. I refer to the proposals on police training. I am pleased that the European Union Committee shares our concerns about the proposed merger between the European Police College and Europol. The noble Lord, Lord Hannay, confirmed that in his opening speech. However, the Commission’s proposals go beyond the merger. They would give the Europol academy a much broader role than CEPOL currently has in police training, significantly expanding the EU’s responsibilities in an area that really should be left to member states.

We also have concerns about the stronger obligation to give Europol data, to which I shall perhaps return later in response to contributions. We accept of course that Europol needs good-quality intelligence from member states if it is to do its job properly. This country has a good record in that respect. But the new regulation goes far beyond specifying exactly what must be shared and in what circumstances. It does not allow us to withhold information that would threaten national security or harm an ongoing investigation. That worries us because it seems to undermine the control of member states over their law enforcement intelligence. Another factor we perhaps need to bear in mind is that it also risks overwhelming Europol with data provided by member states without regard to its quality simply to avoid being taken to the European Court of Justice.

Another concern is the provision that allows Europol to ask member states’ law enforcement agencies to carry out investigations. Europol already has some powers in this area but the new regulations strengthen them, which suggests a presumption that a member state will comply with Europol’s request. Any reason for not complying could be subject to challenge before the ECJ. Indeed, my noble friend Lord Sharkey acknowledged that this was a risk. We would have real concerns if that led to the European courts judging our policing priorities.

The committee has argued that we should opt into the text and negotiate out these provisions. That is an option, especially as opting in before 30 July would give us a vote in the negotiations. However, the proposal is subject to qualified majority voting, so if we did opt in we could still be out-voted. We would then be bound by the outcome even if we did not get the changes we were seeking.

It is right to bear in mind that the decision to stay out at this stage will not necessarily exclude us from Europol for ever. We would remain involved in the negotiations and would have another chance to take part once the measure had been adopted. That would give us the advantage of knowing exactly what the regulation would require of us before we signed up to it but with the offset of having no vote in the negotiations.

[Lord Foulkes of Cumnock]

My Lords, while the Minister is going through these arguments, perhaps he could explain why he has had no support from his own Back-Benchers and why none of the people who gave evidence to the sub-committee supported his point of view? Why has he not been able to persuade anyone inside or outside this House?

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Taylor of Holbeach]

I imagine that I will be able to tell noble Lords that it is highly probable that a decision will be made before the other place rises, rather than before 30 July. The business of this House is a matter for the usual channels and I place myself in their hands. However, I would want to communicate any decision of this importance to the House and, indeed, to Parliament. I am sure that that will be acknowledged by my noble friends who occupy the usual channels.

My noble friend Lord Sharkey is correct to say that there are numerous examples of good co-operation. He illustrated the virtues of Europol and why, notwithstanding the discussions on whether to opt in or to let it run and then negotiate, it is such an important institution and we support it. I am aware that we share common ground with other member states on some issues, but there are no guarantees. The issues are subject to qualified majority voting and there have not been any detailed negotiations that have allowed us to gain a clear idea of how much support we have for our concerns. Should we not succeed in amending it, we would be bound by the final text, and that is a matter of concern to the Government.

Perhaps I may respond to the noble Lord, Lord Foulkes. I should like to highlight that there are two separate issues here: the block opt-out and the Europol negotiations. The two issues are not being confused and this debate is about the Europol regulation, not the opt-out.

[Lord Foulkes of Cumnock]

My Lords—

[Lord Taylor of Holbeach]

If the noble Lord will forgive me, I am going to run out of time.

[Lord Foulkes of Cumnock]

My notice said that the House would rise at 10 pm, so we have an hour and a half. I wonder if the Minister will think again because the two issues are related. The recommendation I read out indicates that they are related. If you opt in and there is a block opt-out, and then you have to opt in again, there must be a relationship between the two.

The Minister and I know a little about another member state of the European Union, la belle France. The French are just as concerned about their national interest, their policing and the other concerns that he has expressed. Why does he think that they do not have the same anxiety that this Government seem to be expressing?

[Lord Taylor of Holbeach]

That is exactly the point that I have been trying to lay before the House and why the Government are deliberating carefully on this. It is a matter of common interest across European countries and of measuring that common interest. This is all a worthwhile endeavour but it requires the national interest to be taken into account. That is the background against which the Government are making this decision. Of course, there is a big issue about the general opt-out but this decision stands alone and is being considered by the committee and by the Government on its own merits. I have tried to demonstrate that this is an even-handed consideration of the issue.

I say to the noble Baroness that, whatever our decision, negotiations are important for us in ensuring the operational independence of law enforcement agencies and the security of our citizens. We expect there to be some common ground among member states, such as la belle France, if the noble Lord, Lord Foulkes, was referring to the interests that a number of noble Lords in the Chamber at the moment have. We are committed to ensuring the best possible outcome from these negotiations. We will need to consider the proposals in detail as the negotiations progress but we agree that strong data protection, for example, is important. The regulations here will need to reflect the data protection provisions being negotiated elsewhere. None is likely to change during the negotiating position. The noble Baroness asked how many other measures are awaiting an opt-in. I know of no others but will seek to find out and let her know if there are any.

This good-natured and deep-thinking debate, despite the hokey-cokey allusions, has considered the seriousness of this issue. As the noble Lord, Lord Judd, said, the security of the country requires us to make sure that law enforcement agencies have the co-operation they need from other European countries. I stress that the Government still have an open mind on the issue. We will of course consider the view of your Lordships’ House and the arguments made by noble Lords here tonight very carefully before we make our decision. I assure the House that the Government will ensure that this House, and Parliament are kept informed about that decision.

Crime: Stalking

Debate between Lord Foulkes of Cumnock and Lord Taylor of Holbeach

Tuesday 12th March 2013 Lords Chamber

[Lord Taylor of Holbeach]

I do not want to move on to the question of sentencing policy, but I want to emphasise that the Government take the offence of stalking seriously; so does my noble friend, who I know is a member of the Justice Unions’ Parliamentary Group, which published a very helpful report on the subject. I note what she said, but I ask her to remember that the Home Office is in continual dialogue with the Crown Prosecution Service on the way these new offences are being implemented.

[Lord Foulkes of Cumnock]

My Lords, the Minister said that a lot of talking was taking place but he did not indicate what action was taking place. Did he answer the question of how many prosecutions there have been to date under this new law regarding stalking offences? If he did not, why not?

[Lord Taylor of Holbeach]

Those data are not available.

[Lord Foulkes of Cumnock]

Why not?

[Lord Taylor of Holbeach]

I am sorry, but they are not collected and compiled until some time after the incidents have occurred. As I have said, the data will be available in May 2012—

Citizenship Test

Debate between Lord Foulkes of Cumnock and Lord Taylor of Holbeach

Tuesday 26th February 2013 Lords Chamber

[Lord Taylor of Holbeach]

My Lords, I am always very happy to learn and would be delighted to meet my noble friend. However, I do not agree with his summary of the new handbook. I think that it contains relevant British history and culture, which is the whole purpose of the exercise: that is, to provide facts on which people can base a life of settlement and, indeed, citizenship in this country. Therefore, I disagree with the premise of my noble friend’s supplementary question but I am very happy to meet him.

[Lord Foulkes of Cumnock]

My Lords, has the Minister tried to take the test himself and, if so, did he pass?

[Lord Taylor of Holbeach]

I have a sample test here and it is very fortunate that the correct answers are given in bold type.

Justice and Security Bill [HL]

Debate between Lord Foulkes of Cumnock and Lord Taylor of Holbeach

Monday 19th November 2012 Lords Chamber

[Lord Taylor of Holbeach]

I do not wish to prevent the noble Lord intervening but we are on Report. Therefore, I remind noble Lords—

[Lord Foulkes of Cumnock]

I agree with the Minister, who I think has made a good case, and disagree with my noble friend Lord Reid of Cardowan. Members of the Joint Committee on National Security Strategy have already had a report that the line management of the heads of the various intelligence and security services is the responsibility of the Permanent Secretary. That has been made absolutely clear to us. We raised some concerns about that point and I am sure that the noble Baroness, Lady Manningham-Buller, will comment on it. If the Permanent Secretary has that line management responsibility, it would seem strange if these post holders were considered for appointment by a committee rather than by the procedure that the Minister has described. I know that my noble friend on the Front Bench is a bit irritated at what I have said, but I am glad to say that on this side of the House we have the freedom to say what we think.

[Lord Taylor of Holbeach]

Although I am encouraged by what the noble Lord had to say, I should remind noble Lords that we are on Report and it would probably be as well if I was allowed to finish what I was saying. The key thing is that the coalition agreement expressly says that we want to strengthen the role of committees in scrutinising public appointments. The Government are committed to doing that. However, the coalition agreement does not refer to Civil Service appointments. The pre-appointment scrutiny process, which we have in place for public appointments, is not the same as appointments to the Civil Service. Therefore, although the Government have made important progress in meeting the commitment on public appointments, that is not relevant to these appointments if they are Civil Service appointments.

I know that the roles that the agency heads play are very important and the appointments must be right. That is why I hope that I have given the noble Baroness and the noble Lord the reassurance that the process that presently exists for appointing the heads of these agencies is appropriate to the nature of the posts. It would not be appropriate to adopt the pre-appointment process that exists for posts in public bodies. On that basis, I hope that the noble Baroness, Lady Smith, the noble Lord, Lord Rosser, and my noble friends Lady Hamwee and Lord Marks will respectively see fit to withdraw their amendments.

I now address Amendments 11 and 12 which concern the ISC holding an annual hearing with the agency heads and the Secretary of State giving evidence before the committee in public. I can appreciate the intention behind the amendment but I have a number of concerns about the idea of creating a duty to hold annual public hearings. As noble Lords will know, The Governance of Britain Green Paper in 2007 made a series of reform proposals aimed at bringing the ISC as far as possible into line with other Select Committees. One of those proposals was for some hearings of the ISC to be structured to allow unclassified evidence to be heard in open session. Those sessions did not subsequently happen. Building on this, the Justice and Security Green Paper noted that while the ISC’s meetings will still have to take place, as a rule, in private, both the Government and the committee were committed to the concept of public evidence sessions where they can be held without compromising national security or the safety of individuals.

The noble Baroness, Lady Smith, spoke powerfully in Committee on the issue of public hearings and she has done so again today. We fully agree that they can be valuable but she noted that public hearings should never be automatic for the ISC but argued that they should become more routine as public confidence is taken into account. We fully agree that public hearings may improve public confidence in the ISC and its work.

The Bill does not need a specific provision for this; the existing ISC, created by the Intelligence Services Act 1994, has power enough to determine its own procedures and that is sufficient for its purposes—the ISC is provided for in the Bill. In that way, there is actually very little difference between the position that we take on the Bill and the position proposed by the noble Baroness. However, there are significant practical issues that have to be addressed before public evidence sessions can take place. I am sure that noble Lords will appreciate introducing public evidence sessions for a committee whose work is mostly concerned with sensitive and highly classified information. That will be challenging.

The Government remain committed to making public hearings work better in practice, and are currently in discussions with the committee about how to do so—for instance, on issues such as appropriate subject matter, timing and having appropriate safeguards against unauthorised disclosure of sensitive information. In Committee, my noble friend Lord Lothian, a current member of the ISC, made the valuable point that public hearings would be counter-productive so far as public confidence in the committee is concerned. If either the majority of the questions posed are met with a response, “I cannot answer that”, or the subject matter for the hearing is anodyne and the process completely rehearsed, I am sure that noble Lords will feel that the process has not been worth while. The ISC will already have the power to hold public hearings with agency heads and with relevant Secretaries of State without any of these amendments. Leaving it to the ISC’s discretion to determine when and how frequently to hold such meetings will enable it to make the best use of its available resources. I hope that I have convinced noble Lords that that is the right approach. I hope, on the basis of this information, that my noble friend Lady Hamwee will withdraw her amendment, and that the noble Baroness, Lady Smith, the noble Lord, Lord Rosser, and my noble friend Lord Marks will not move theirs.

Environment: Leafleting

Debate between Lord Foulkes of Cumnock and Lord Taylor of Holbeach

Monday 9th July 2012 Lords Chamber

[Lord Taylor of Holbeach]

I think my noble friend has to come to terms with the localism issue. In the end this is up to local authorities to determine. I believe in localism and local decision-making. Local communities elect their local authorities to take care of such matters. It is not for central government or Parliament to determine.

[Lord Foulkes of Cumnock]

It might be stretching it just a little to call it a cultural and community event, but there was a very important event in south-west London yesterday and I know that all the litter has been cleared up since then. I wondered whether it would be appropriate for the Minister to take this opportunity to congratulate Andy Murray on a tremendous effort—an effort of which everyone in the United Kingdom, not just Scotland, should be really proud—and to wish him one better next time round.

[Lord Taylor of Holbeach]

I am delighted to be able to join in the noble Lord’s congratulations to Andy Murray. I was in the air during this particular tournament on the way back from a ministerial conference—

Food: Waste

Debate between Lord Foulkes of Cumnock and Lord Taylor of Holbeach

Tuesday 20th March 2012 Lords Chamber

[Lord Taylor of Holbeach]

This is part and parcel of the CLG process of looking for weekly collections. In partnership with local authorities, we in Defra hope to encourage food waste as a separate waste stream. Certainly that has been our policy, and many of the local authorities that are putting in bids to the CLG are doing so on the basis of a separate food waste collection.

[Lord Foulkes of Cumnock]

My Lords, what discussion are Her Majesty’s Government having with the devolved authorities in Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland about co-operation on this matter and learning from each other’s experiences?

[Lord Taylor of Holbeach]

In many of these cases, we in Whitehall can learn considerably from the devolved authorities. I am in contact with my opposite number in Scotland. I hope that that helps the noble Lord. Indeed, the department works very closely with the devolved authorities. There is much that we can learn from each other.

Gangmasters

Debate between Lord Foulkes of Cumnock and Lord Taylor of Holbeach

Monday 12th December 2011 Lords Chamber

[Lord Foulkes of Cumnock]

My Lords, I am sure that the House was very interested to learn that the red tape challenge has a ministerial star chamber. Will the Minister tell us how many other ministerial star chambers there are in government? Is there one on the European Union?

[Lord Taylor of Holbeach]

From my knowledge of star chambers, which is rather limited to history books and the like, they are where conflicting views which may need to be resolved are discussed in an informal way. That is exactly how the star chamber has functioned in this way. I am not suggesting for a moment that the European issue could be resolved quite so easily.

Devolution: England

Debate between Lord Foulkes of Cumnock and Lord Taylor of Holbeach

Wednesday 13th July 2011 Lords Chamber

[Lord Foulkes of Cumnock]

To ask Her Majesty’s Government what proposals they have for devolution to England.

[Lord Taylor of Holbeach]

My Lords, the Government have no current proposals for devolution to England.

[Lord Foulkes of Cumnock]

My Lords, surely the Minister will agree that now that Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland have control over all their own domestic matters through devolved parliaments, this leaves a democratic deficit in England. Will the Government now consider bringing forward the only proposal that will provide a stable and equitable solution to this problem, namely a UK federal system and a devolved, elected Parliament for England?

[Lord Taylor of Holbeach]

My Lords, I am sure we can have an interesting debate on this question, because a devolved English Parliament within a federalised UK has been one of the proposals put forward in the past to deal with the West Lothian question. I think the noble Lord would admit that this is not without its complexity. The Government have committed to the establishment of a commission to investigate the West Lothian question, and we would not want to pre-empt any conclusions that that commission may come to.

Charity Commission: Bogus Charities

Debate between Lord Foulkes of Cumnock and Lord Taylor of Holbeach

Wednesday 4th May 2011 Lords Chamber

[Lord Taylor of Holbeach]

I hope I can reassure my noble friend that I am not complacent on this issue. What I am saying, however, is that considerable resources across Government are devoted to making sure that there is no abuse of charitable funding and no misapplication of funds for terrorism. We have the Charity Commission itself, HMRC, the police and the National Terrorist Financial Investigation Unit. All these bodies, as part of Government, are dedicated to making sure that there is no abuse of charitable giving.

[Lord Foulkes of Cumnock]

As charity legislation is devolved, will the Minister discuss the issue with the Scottish Executive to make sure that they are also keeping an eye on this?

[Lord Taylor of Holbeach]

I am sure that the review of the Charities Act 2006 will take into account the connection with the devolved authorities, and we will want to make sure that they are fully in the picture. Indeed, I hope that the noble Lord is in a position to reinforce the determination of the Government here in Whitehall to deal with this problem.

Parliamentary Voting System and Constituencies Bill

Debate between Lord Foulkes of Cumnock and Lord Taylor of Holbeach

Thursday 20th January 2011 Lords Chamber

[Lord Foulkes of Cumnock]

I shall come to that in a moment. I was sent out, not by the Secretary of State but by the then Prime Minister, Tony Blair, to Montserrat to calm things down. The airport had of course closed and I arrived by helicopter—I am not an inconsiderable figure, as noble Lords will observe—clad in a very large, bright orange outfit. I disembarked from the helicopter and saw all the cameras.

[Lord Taylor of Holbeach]

My Lords, I think the noble Lord has the opportunity of moving his amendment and seeking to test the opinion of the House or of withdrawing his amendment. I think it would help the House if he gave an indication of what he would like to do so we can carry on with business.

Parliamentary Voting System and Constituencies Bill

Debate between Lord Foulkes of Cumnock and Lord Taylor of Holbeach

Monday 17th January 2011 Lords Chamber

[Lord Foulkes of Cumnock]

The Minister, in his final sentence, dealt with the point that I wanted to make, which has not been made during the whole debate so far. I am not in favour at this stage of having a fixed figure at all, whether it be 600, 650 or even 500. We should give some flexibility to the Boundary Commission, particularly the Boundary Commission for England. With regard to Scotland, Northern Ireland and Wales, in the past figures have been allocated—a minimum figure for Northern Ireland, Wales or Scotland—but not for England. The Boundary Commission has sensibly taken account of natural boundaries and community interests and come up with relatively sensible proposals. Therefore, it is absolutely imperative—even more so, given some of the other provisions in the Bill—that we give the Boundary Commission some flexibility, so that when it goes through these provisions it looks at natural boundaries and listens to community interests, although sadly it will not be able to do so at hearings now, and take some account of them. Later there is an amendment that says that the Boundary Commission is looking at these constituency boundaries and should start with the largest. I put down an amendment saying that it should start with the smallest. If you give the commission a straitjacket, it will be even more difficult, whether it starts with the greatest or the smallest or starts in the north, south, east or west. That kind of provision gives the commission a straitjacket. If it is only numbers that matter, particularly if it is plus or minus 5 per cent and not plus or minus 10 per cent, we will get ridiculous boundaries, cutting through towns and across natural boundaries, taking no account of these important matters. My noble friends on the Front Bench may not like this—I am not saying that there should be 650 seats—but there should be a clear figure and one that is specified by Parliament. I raised this when the noble Lord, Lord Maples, was speaking. For England anyway—and England is the important country in this regard—I do not think that a figure has ever been specified by Parliament before. We should give some degree of flexibility, taking account of the present boundaries.

That brings me on to another reason to have flexibility. A large number of Members of Parliament were recently elected, because there was a huge turnover in the House of Commons in the last election. They are just settling into their constituencies and getting to know their constituencies and to understand the boundaries. That is why the Boundary Commission should in my view start from existing boundaries. That may add a little bit to it, but it would give flexibility. If we specify so rigidly a figure, it will not be able to start from that. There is already going to be clear destabilisation of existing Members of Parliament. I have heard not just from Labour Members but from Conservative and Liberal Democrat Members that they are already worried about the effects that these proposals will have on the selection and reselection arrangements. It will be doubly difficult if the Boundary Commission is unable to get some degree of flexibility. I hope that the Minister will have some opportunity to deal with that and to say whether some flexibility might be considered.

I endorse what my colleagues said earlier and want to add a couple of points, first on the workload of Members of Parliament. A number of Members have dealt with the matter of the change here very effectively. When I was elected first in South Ayrshire, there were no mobile phones and no e-mail, which have made a substantial difference. I raised the importance of direct access to the Member of Parliament when the noble Lord, Lord Maples, spoke on this subject, and said that MPs do not have to take a personal interest in individual cases that come to them. I can tell the noble Lord, Lord Forsyth, that even when I had a majority of 21,000—which was bigger than his ever was—I communicated with and replied to everyone. When people sent petitions about schools closures, I also contacted them. As my noble friend Lady McDonagh, who is in front of me, said, that may be why I ended up with a majority of 21,000 and why her sister has a large majority. It is because we deal with them in that way.

However, I remember the late Donald Dewar, when he was Secretary of State for Scotland and when he was Chief Whip. When he was doing all those important jobs, he used to deal with every constituent person. I remember him on the train—when the rest of us may have been enjoying ourselves a little—dictating long, detailed letters in reply to constituents so that he could—

[Lord Taylor of Holbeach]

My Lords—

[Noble Lords]

Order!

[Lord Foulkes of Cumnock]

I am in the middle of a speech. Does the noble Lord want to ask a question?

[Lord Taylor of Holbeach]

The noble Lord has been addressing the House for quite some time. He has not come up with new arguments or new points. The Minister has already spoken and I believe that we should bring this debate to a conclusion.

[Lord Bassam of Brighton]

The noble Lord will know that the fact that the Minister has spoken does not mean that the debate finishes. Noble Lords are quite entitled to continue the debate after the Minister has spoken and other noble Lords have indicated their interest on this issue.

Public Bodies Bill [HL]

Debate between Lord Foulkes of Cumnock and Lord Taylor of Holbeach

Monday 29th November 2010 Lords Chamber

[Lord Taylor of Holbeach]

I am very grateful to my noble friend Lord Greaves for bringing forward this amendment. As the noble Lord, Lord Hunt of Kings Heath, made clear, I am well rehearsed on the arguments for sustainability and I would like to think that the Government too share the conviction that sustainability lies at the core of good governance within government.

This amendment seeks to add a further requirement that when functions are transferred from one body to another, the duty to promote sustainable development transfers along with the function, whether or not the duty is set out in statute. I am happy to confirm to my noble friend Lord Greaves that the Government absolutely share his desire to make sustainable development a key part of public life and a consideration that runs through everything we do.

[Lord Foulkes of Cumnock]

If it runs through everything that the coalition Government are doing, how does the noble Lord reconcile with that the selling off of parts of national parks? We are going to come to it under Amendment 74 from the noble Lord, Lord Greaves. Surely that contradicts everything that the Minister has just been saying.

[Lord Taylor of Holbeach]

I think the noble Lord is anticipating government policy incorrectly. There is no question of us selling off the national parks—the noble Lord must allow me to correct him. We will debate national parks because they feature in the schedules to the Bill. It will give an opportunity for my noble friend Lord Henley—who is the Minister within the department—to explain in full the Government’s proposal in this respect. The statement that the Government are proposing to sell off national parks, or part of the national parks, is incorrect.

[Lord Foulkes of Cumnock]

I am grateful if that is correct but the Minister may have seen a report on “Countryfile” on BBC television yesterday in which it was absolutely clear that land within national parks is already being sold off. How does he reconcile that with what he has just said, the sustainability argument and the concern that the coalition professes?

Public Bodies Bill [HL]

Debate between Lord Foulkes of Cumnock and Lord Taylor of Holbeach

Tuesday 9th November 2010 Lords Chamber

[Lord Taylor of Holbeach]

My Lords, I beg to move that this Bill be read a second time.

This is an important Bill, as the Speakers List recognises, and this is an important day. I shall use this speech as an opportunity to introduce the Bill and to explain why we are bringing it forward.

The coalition Government, following manifesto commitments of both coalition parties, are committed to the creation of a more transparent and accountable system of government in the United Kingdom. As part of this process, we are committed to making substantial reforms to the public bodies landscape. These reforms are long overdue. While we recognise the excellent work done by public bodies and their staff, we equally recognise the widely held view that what is often referred to as the quango state can add unnecessary complexity to public life, diluting the proper accountability of Ministers to the electorate.

The quango state has in the past suited both government and politicians. It has never suited the British public, who expect clarity and, as taxpayers, insist, rightly, that Ministers ensure that every pound the Government spend is spent efficiently and effectively. In 2009, £38.4 billion of public money was spent by public bodies; it is our duty to ensure that this expenditure is properly focused and that all public bodies are fit for purpose.

To guide this vital reform process, the Government have conducted a review of 901 public bodies, making a coherent, cross-government assessment of whether their functions were still required, and where and how these functions could best be exercised. Technical functions and those requiring independence or the provision of impartial advice would continue to be delivered by a public body. That remains the yardstick for these reforms and will continue to be the means by which the Government assess their commitment to public bodies—technical functions, the need for independence and the provision of impartial advice.

As a result of the review process, my right honourable friend the Minister for the Cabinet Office announced in another place on 14 October that the Government proposed to abolish, merge, or substantially reform 481 bodies. The Public Bodies Bill is a crucial element of the delivery of this programme. It would create a transparent legislative framework that will allow many of these reforms to be implemented. In addition, it would clarify in statute those bodies which the Government intend should be subject to future review processes, and would create a power to enable subsequent changes. In summary, the Bill would enable the Government to deliver what the public rightly expect: a public bodies landscape which is accountable, effective, and efficient. I hope that these are principles on which noble Lords on all sides can agree.

The numbers speak for themselves. The speakers list shows why this Bill was not a Lords starter by chance. The expertise this House contains will be borne out by our debate today and by subsequent days in Committee. The Government are keen to take advantage of this expertise to scrutinise this Bill with thoroughness. This is why we cannot support the amendment in the name of the noble Lord, Lord Hunt of Kings Heath. This Bill is not overly complex or technical and does not seek to radically overhaul our constitution, in contrast to the last Bill to be subject to such an amendment in this House—only the second instance of such a procedure since 1917. On the contrary, a Committee of the whole House is precisely the venue for detailed consideration of this Bill. Many noble Lords have an interest from a variety of perspectives; we will hear many of these perspectives today. I do not see what a referral to a Select Committee would add to that process, beyond an inevitable delay to the passage of the Bill and a consequent delay to a series of reforms which, in many cases, are uncontroversial and enjoy wide cross-party and public support.

I therefore ask noble Lords to consider carefully the implications of obstructing the Bill in this way, particularly given the practical difficulties inherent in seeking to implement these reforms through primary legislation. I also remind the House that the noble Lord, Lord Hunt of Kings Heath, chaired a Labour working party on Lords procedure which criticised this House for referring the Constitutional Reform Bill to a Select Committee in 2004. He declared:

“The House has pushed at the limits of the convention that it must consider the Government’s business without unreasonable delay”.

Today, he asks noble Lords to push at those limits on this Bill which, while undoubtedly of significance, does not have the exceptional impact on this House that the Constitutional Reform Bill had. I do not need to remind noble Lords that that Bill substantially altered centuries-old constitutional arrangements and the composition and role of this House. The Public Bodies Bill would have no such effect, and there is no justification for treating it in an analogous manner.

I do not wish to imply that I am in any way dismissive of the concern of noble Lords. I have met noble Lords from all sides of the House, listened to their concerns and suggestions, and intend to continue to have an open door on this Bill during its passage through this House. I think noble Lords know me well enough to know that this is not an empty gesture. Specifically, the Government see some merit in the suggestion that an order made under the Bill could be published in draft to enable a period of consultation with interested parties. We intend to consider this further.

I have noted the report of the Constitution Committee on the Bill. I thank that committee’s members for their work on this report and assure those present that I will respond in due course and engage constructively with the committee to address its concerns. In response to their complaint that the Government have not made their case for the Bill, I ask them to consider today’s debate as the beginning of that process.

I turn to the Bill itself. It would confer on Ministers a set of order-making powers to make changes to public bodies and offices via statutory instrument, providing a coherent and efficient procedure for change across government. All the main powers in the Bill would be subject to the affirmative procedure, ensuring that Parliament is able to scrutinise the detail of all changes as they are brought forward.

I emphasise to the House that the powers in Clauses 1 to 6 are limited in their application to the bodies listed in the corresponding schedules. Similarly, Schedule 7 limits the bodies to which the powers in the Bill might apply in the future. The Government wish Parliament to have clarity about the types of change that the Bill can enable, and these mechanisms secure that clarity. It would not be possible, for example, to use the Bill to effect changes to a body not listed in Schedules 1 to 6. While it is possible to move a body from Schedule 7 to a different schedule to enable such a change, this move would itself require a distinct statutory instrument.

By way of illustration, I shall give the House a number of examples of the changes we propose to make, and why they are necessary. Clause 1 gives Ministers the power to abolish a body or office; this power is relevant where the functions of a body are no longer required, or can best be carried out elsewhere. In some cases, such as British Shipbuilders, functions have already been wound down or transferred, and an order made under the Bill would simply remove the legal entity and transfer liabilities. In other cases, this power would enable more substantive reform, such as the replacement of regional development agencies with local enterprise partnerships, providing more targeted support for economic growth.

The intention of Clause 2 is to allow groups of bodies to be merged, drawing together their assets to ensure that public functions are discharged efficiently and effectively. It is for this reason that the Government intend to merge the Pensions Ombudsman with the Pension Protection Fund Ombudsman, simplifying current arrangements under which the two bodies, which already provide a coherent service, exist as separate statutory entities.

Clauses 3 and 4 give Ministers the power to modify respectively the constitutional and funding arrangements for bodies. For example, the Government intend to improve the accountability of the Equality and Human Rights Commission to Ministers and Parliament by requiring it to lay its annual business plan before Parliament, and to emphasise the importance of effective internal governance by placing the EHRC’s Audit and Risk Committee on a statutory footing.

Clause 5 allows for a body’s functions to be modified, and for the transfer of functions to an eligible person. In the case of the Horserace Betting Levy Board, the Government plan to remove the Secretary of State’s role in relation to the annual levy determination, reducing the Government’s involvement with horserace funding by devolving greater responsibility to the parties concerned.

The final principal power is to authorise delegation. The Government envisage that this power would be used to give bodies the flexibility to improve efficiency by delivering some functions through a third party—for example, empowering citizens by delegating some functions to local groups.

These powers provide a targeted framework for the reform of public bodies in the UK, centred on principles of accountability, efficiency and effectiveness.

[Lord Foulkes of Cumnock]

My Lords, will the Minister clarify the position in relation to United Kingdom bodies like the Forestry Commission or the Security Industry Authority should the Scottish Government disagree with the United Kingdom Government? How would the matter be resolved?

[Lord Taylor of Holbeach]

There has been a dialogue with the devolved authorities throughout the course of the Bill. This is a continuing process. There is a separate chapter on the Forestry Commission; I will speak to that shortly. It is a matter of debate. There is no division of view between the United Kingdom and the devolved authorities on this at this stage.

[Lord Foulkes of Cumnock]

It is my understanding that the Scottish Government are of a different view from the United Kingdom Government in relation to both the Security Industry Authority and the Forestry Commission, so this is not a theoretical problem. I am asking the Minister not what discussions have taken place but, when there is a dispute, how it is to be resolved. It is not clear from the Bill how any resolution can take place.

[Lord Taylor of Holbeach]

The Bill has proceeded on consensus. I do not imagine that it will deviate from that course in the future.

To continue, the remainder of the Bill provides for several supplementary and associated functions. Clauses 13 to 16 would give Welsh Ministers specific powers to reform environmental bodies in Wales. These powers have been requested by the Welsh Assembly Government to enable changes following their current review of environmental regulation.

Clauses 17 to 19 concern forestry. The Government are exploring a new approach to the ownership and management of woodlands and forests, with a reduced role for the state and a bigger role for individuals, businesses, civil society organisations and local authorities. I assure the House that this Government will not compromise the protection of our most valuable and biodiverse forests, including our historic woodland. Measures will remain to preserve and enhance the vital public benefits that our forests provide. The Government will consult widely on their future plans and invite views from a wide variety of stakeholders.

Clauses 20 to 22 place specific restrictions on the use of the powers in the Bill. These clauses complement the additional protection in Clause 8, which prevents a Minister making an order that he or she considers will infringe an individual’s rights. Clauses 23 to 25 confer powers to create transfer schemes and provision about taxation in relation to the powers in the Bill. Finally, Clause 26 amends the Superannuation Act 1972, clarifying rights of participation in the Civil Service pension scheme for employees of some public bodies.

I know that Members of this House will wish to scrutinise the Bill thoroughly, with regard both to its structure and its implications for specific bodies. I recognise that there are understandable concerns among staff who work for bodies where reform is proposed. I assure the House that the Government are committed to doing all we can to make changes in a manner that is fair and consistent. I also reassure the House that the fact that a body is named in Schedule 7 to the Bill should not be misconstrued as constituting an intent to abolish or otherwise reform. It simply indicates that the body concerned was within the scope of this year’s review and may be within the scope of future review programmes reported to Parliament.

I would agree with noble Lords that many bodies named in Schedule 7 perform crucial public functions with which the Government have no wish to interfere. For example, we will not do anything to undermine the vital organisational and editorial independence of Channel 4, one of the country’s most highly valued broadcasters. However, as a public corporation with statutory functions, it is right that it should be listed alongside other bodies that have undergone the recent review process. There are certain functions that the Government intend should remain outside the scope of future reviews and the powers in the Bill. These include the economic and network regulatory functions of bodies such as Ofcom, Ofwat and Ofgem, where the Government wish to ensure that regulatory stability is maintained and the cost of capital is not adversely affected.

I look forward to the debates on this Bill and to the wide-ranging expertise which noble Lords will bring to these discussions. I have committed to consider the concerns of colleagues about any aspect of the Bill, and I say again that this is a sincerely held commitment. But in making this commitment, I ask noble Lords again to reflect on the vital and sensible purpose of the Bill. As my right honourable friend the Minister for the Cabinet Office stated in a Written Statement in another place on 14 October:

“The landscape for public bodies needs radical reform to increase transparency and accountability, to cut out duplication of activity, and to discontinue activities which are simply no longer needed”.—[Official Report, Commons, 14/10/10; col. WS 27.]

All the main parties have acknowledged that this is a necessary task and the Public Bodies Bill is an essential part of this process. By creating a framework to make changes to a broad range of bodies, the Bill before this House represents a real opportunity to make lasting reforms to the business of government, and I commend it to the House.