Smoke-free (Private Vehicles) Regulations 2015

Debate between Lord Foulkes of Cumnock and Lord Ribeiro

Tuesday 3rd February 2015 Grand Committee

[Lord Ribeiro (Con)]

My Lords, I thank the Minister for his very kind words. This is a good-news day for children. These regulations and the Bill that went through are about protecting our children in the future. I think that we will send a very powerful message by passing these regulations and I hope that noble Lords will support them.

There is no point in rehearsing all the evidence that the Minister has very kindly given us. However, there is evidence that there has been a significant improvement in children’s health since regulations were introduced. We have only to look to Canada, where there is a ban on smoking in 10 of the 13 provinces. The evidence suggests that since the legislation was brought in, children’s exposure to second-hand smoke has dropped by a third.

The other important thing is the Government’s intention that these regulations should be not just punitive and about fining people but about behavioural change. When there was real reluctance from the Government to see the Bill go through—both when I introduced it as a Private Member’s Bill and early on during its passage—the questions raised were how to police it and how to ensure that people stick to the regulations and the law. The very fact that the emphasis is going to be on prevention, with a focus on health, is good.

Regarding the £50 fine that will be introduced, I am also delighted that the Government have taken the view that there will be a discount of £20 for those who pay within 15 days. That is a very important incentive. I had hoped that we might be able to introduce a learning exercise similar to the one for speeding, where people get some help in understanding the hazards and dangers of speeding. I had hoped that something like that might be brought in under this legislation. None the less, there will be a review five years from now in 2020, and if the general view is that the legislation has been effective, I am sure that it will be possible to devise an educational package so that people do not see the need to smoke in cars with children present. I thank the Minister for taking through these regulations.

[Lord Foulkes of Cumnock (Lab)]

My Lords, I greatly welcome this legislation. I want to ask two questions, which I hope the Minister will be able to deal with. Before doing so, though, I want to say why I am particularly pleased about this. In the early 1980s I tried to introduce a Bill in the other place to ban smoking in public places. I was almost literally laughed out of the House because everyone thought that it was ridiculous to have a ban on smoking in public places. Of course, it is now accepted as the norm.

I was also vilified, as indeed were all the anti-smoking campaigners, by an organisation called FOREST, the so-called Freedom Organisation for the Right to Enjoy Smoking Tobacco. I do not know how anyone can enjoy it—they just have to do it because they become addicted—but there we are. The organisation, which was funded by the tobacco companies, twisted all the figures. It was not a very pleasant experience. I know that my friends who worked in Action on Smoking and Health at the time, as well as other people, were subject to the same kind of criticism and attacks. I am very pleased that things have moved on since then and I commend the Government for pursuing this matter.

However, I have two questions. One relates to enforcement. The ban on smoking in public places has been effectively self-enforcing because the penalties and the problems that would be created by people smoking, particularly for publicans, shopkeepers and people responsible for public places, would be substantial, not just in terms of the fines that they might be subjected to but in terms of losing licences and other problems. Therefore, as I said, the ban has been effectively self-enforcing, with all but 100% compliance, I am pleased to say.

However, the legislation concerning the use of mobile phones in cars has not been so effective. I have seen a lot of people continuing to use mobile phones in cars while driving but I understand that there have been relatively few prosecutions of this extremely dangerous habit. I get the impression that the police are not particularly good at making sure that people are pursued in relation to that offence, and I am a little concerned that the offence of smoking in a car with children present will be more akin to using a mobile phone while driving than smoking in public places such as pubs, shops and so on. I would be grateful if the Minister could deal with that and give an assurance that enforcement and compliance will be more effective.

Secondly, unlike the noble Lord, Lord Ribeiro—who I commend for the way in which he has pursued this issue—I am not sure that £50 is a sufficient penalty. I understand that it is similar to the penalty for parking in an inappropriate or illegal place, a much less grave offence than one that causes danger and harm to children. Many people will take the risk of smoking in a car with children present, particularly as, with no disrespect, a £50 fine to Ferrari drivers and drivers of large, expensive cars will not mean very much in terms of their regular expenditure. I wonder whether this is an appropriate penalty for the offence. The Minister mentioned a review; perhaps this matter could be looked at in that review.

Those are my only two reservations, neither of which takes away from my warm welcome to the Government for these regulations. As the Minister knows, I do not regularly welcome the things that this Government do, but on this occasion I am pleased to do so.