Transparency of the Parole Board and Victim Support

Lord Foulkes of Cumnock Excerpts

Tuesday 9th January 2018 Lords Chamber

[Lord Keen of Elie]

With respect, I can perhaps answer both questions by reference to the same issue. As far as I am aware, no pressure is being brought to bear on the Parole Board with respect to inappropriate release of IPP prisoners. The statutory test is perfectly clear, and the Parole Board is an independent body applying that statutory test, which should continue to be the position. It would not be appropriate that we should depart from the situation in which there is an independent Parole Board making these decisions objectively, to somehow bring it back into the fold of political decision-making where you may find pressure from the electorate, the media and elsewhere that impacts directly on someone’s right of liberty.

[Lord Foulkes of Cumnock (Lab)]

From the Minister’s extensive experience north of the border, is there anything that can be learned from the procedures in Scotland?

[Lord Keen of Elie]

I am obliged to the noble Lord, but I have to confess that I have virtually no experience of criminal law north of the border.

Scotland Act 1998 (Insolvency Functions) Order 2017

Lord Foulkes of Cumnock Excerpts

Wednesday 29th November 2017 Grand Committee

[Lord Bruce of Bennachie (LD)]

May I clarify that the intention is that either the Minister of the Crown or a Scottish Minister may act, but they have to agree with each other? If so, what will be the process by which they consult? There may be circumstances where the action has to be fairly urgent. Clearly, one does not want to use a consultation process which causes delay. Does one simply have to notify the other or do they have to give consent formally either way?

[Lord Foulkes of Cumnock (Lab)]

My Lords, I share the delight of my noble friend on the Front Bench that the noble Lord, Lord Rogan, is presiding over our proceedings today. The last time that I mentioned the Chair in a Grand Committee I was told that I was not supposed to do that, but I am delighted that I did. I agree completely with the question raised by my noble friend on the Front Bench and amplified by the Liberal Democrats.

I will make a few more points. First, I am increasingly worried about the number of important matters that are being dealt with through statutory instruments. This one is perhaps okay. In fact, I think it is, as my noble friend on the Front Bench said, and he is supporting it. I go along with that. However, I suspect that as we move into the new year, we will get hundreds if not thousands more statutory instruments, many in areas that might more properly be dealt with by primary legislation. It is very important that we on this side of the House—and indeed all sides—keep an eye on the Government to make sure that some important matters which should more properly be dealt with by primary legislation on the Floor of the House are not slipped through on statutory instruments, particularly in Grand Committee.

I welcome the Minister to the Front Bench—I should have done so right at the very start. I have not had the opportunity to appear opposite him before. I know of his work in the European Parliament, which he carried out with distinction. No doubt, like me, he would have preferred that European Parliament to go on and on into the foreseeable future, which it may well do, if my noble friends the Liberal Democrats have their way. I am right behind them on that.

However, I am worried about one aspect of this order in relation to limited liability partnerships. The Minister understandably mentioned nothing about the controversy of limited liability partnerships, particularly in relation to Scotland. He will know that there has been a lot of publicity and concern expressed about the way in which limited liability partnerships are being used for tax evasion, tax avoidance and money laundering. These limited liability partnerships can be set up quickly and cheaply. I think they cost £35. As a result, corporation tax and capital gains tax are being avoided by people who set up these limited liability partnerships. Very often, there is no need for the partnership to be in writing; it can just be a verbal agreement between people, which is very unsatisfactory. There has been great controversy, not just in Scotland but in other places too. A lot of controversy has arisen in Jersey in relation to them. More recently, the suggestion that people with self-employed status could be treated as employees by a limited liability partnership has caused some genuine concern.

I know that this is not directly covered by the winding-up procedures. However, as my noble friend rightly pinpointed, there could be a difference of opinion between Holyrood and Whitehall about whether a limited liability partnership should be wound up. It may be that Westminster, in its wisdom, will want such a partnership to be wound up because it had been involved in some kind of activities and it would be more appropriate for it to be wound up, but Holyrood might not. In that case, I endorse the questions asked by my noble friends in relation to this. I hope the Minister will amplify in his answer what might happen specifically in relation to limited liability partnerships.

[Baroness Donaghy (Lab)]

I, too, congratulate the noble Lord, Lord Rogan, on being in the chair, and I also congratulate the Minister. I read his moving maiden speech and welcome him to the Front Bench.

I am worrying away at the same point that four other noble Lords have raised. It is the phrase,

“by the Scottish Ministers and a Minister of the Crown”.

It may be because of my former ACAS chair hat, but I look for trouble—for how to sort it out before it happens, and for codes of practice. My questions are about what might seem a narrow point, but it is an extremely important one. Would this relationship be mutual? Would they both have to agree? That question has already been asked. Does one have precedence over the other? I think that has already been asked. Is there an intention to think about something like a code of practice for any eventuality, such as when they do not agree? If they do not agree, how will the delays that take place affect not only the companies but the workers involved in the lack of future of those companies? It is extremely important that, in any inbuilt possible conflict, we should consider the people who are going to be at the bottom end of it and might be detrimentally affected.

Scotland Act 1998 (Specification of Devolved Tax) (Wild Fisheries) Order 2017

Lord Foulkes of Cumnock Excerpts

Wednesday 29th November 2017 Grand Committee

[Lord Beith (LD)]

My Lords, my noble friend did not realise quite how far the provision he has just cited extends. Legislation, particularly the Scotland Act 1998 (River Tweed) Order 2006, embraces the whole of the Tweed district, which includes all the tributaries of the Tweed and tributaries of the rivers which are tributaries of the Tweed, whether they are in England or Scotland. Of course, many of them are in England, such as the Till, for example. The Tweed river system has always been managed as a single system, which makes a great deal of sense. It would be odd to do it otherwise.

However, there are some problems inherent in this, as there were in the 2006 order. The Minister said that the Bill will not affect other parts of the United Kingdom—I hope I am not quoting him wrongly. If that is the case, it will be an interesting reversion to the previous way of legislating in this area. My initial assumption was that this order might affect all the tributaries of the Tweed. The basic question is: can somebody have a fine or levy placed upon them by the Scottish Government when they are not only resident in England but the activity to which the levy relates is wholly in England? Can someone who is the owner or occupier of a fishing right on, say, the Till, be required to pay a levy by the Scottish Government?

There may be a perfectly good case for them being required to pay that levy, but if there is, that surely should be a decision on which the United Kingdom Parliament—the only Parliament which represents England—should continue to have a say in future. It seems constitutionally repugnant for the Scottish Parliament to be able to pass laws or impose levies in England, just as it would be repugnant now under devolution to do the reverse in this area. That is what I would like clarification on as I think something of a wrong turning was taken in the 2006 order, and I do not want to see it repeated in subsequent orders, such as the one we are considering today.

[Lord Foulkes of Cumnock (Lab)]

My Lords, the Minister will be pleased to hear I have nothing to say on this subject.

[The Earl of Cork and Orrery (CB)]

I thank the Minister for his cogent explanation. I declare an interest as the spouse of the part-owner of a west coast river.

There is great concern among those involved with district salmon fishery boards on the west coast of Scotland that this clarification of the law is intended to cover a deeper purpose. We currently pay what used to be called fishery rates, or sporting rates. That money is returned to us in the form of support for the district salmon fishery boards. In general terms this has been a very satisfactory arrangement and has allowed the employment of marine biologists to assist riparian management and so on. The concern is that this measure in effect allows the Government to separate the two strands and use that money as part of the general tax pool, and then return what they wish to the district salmon fishery boards, which will thereby over time suffer attrition that may well be a downward trend. Will the Minister therefore give an assurance that all money raised by this measure will be returned to the district salmon fishery boards or their equivalent?

Criminal Justice (Scotland) Act 2016 (Consequential Provisions) Order 2017

Lord Foulkes of Cumnock Excerpts

Wednesday 29th November 2017 Grand Committee

[Lord Bruce of Bennachie (LD)]

My Lords, I also thank the Minister for his introduction and explanation. I will explore one or two aspects of this because, as he said himself, it is complex. It is a mixture of devolved and reserved matters.

I will first look at reserved matters relating to human rights, because we have clearly had some controversies in Scottish policing over the last few years. The Liberal Democrats oppose the creation of a Scottish national police force. We believe our criticisms and concerns have been somewhat borne out, certainly in the early part, by the way the national force conducted itself and the fact it appeared to be under somewhat more direct political control than many of us would regard as appropriate and would be the case for police forces in England.

In particular, we saw a massive increase in the use of stop and search by the police in Scotland. In 2013-14, there were 450,173 “consensual” searches. The meaning of “consent” is rather subjective in that context. There were 192,470 statutory searches. Not surprisingly, this created a great deal of public reaction. The Scottish Government responded to that; I give them credit for that, but they needed to because it was a very strong reaction. Consequently, the figures the following year, at least from 1 April to 30 September, saw consensual searches drop to 888 from 450,000 and the statutory searches from 192,470 to 20,665. Consensual searches are now banned altogether, so that is a step in the right direction. I want to check with the Minister, where part of the reaction was not just that public concern but human rights implications that would fall on the UK Government, does this combination of Acts by the Scottish Parliament and this statutory instrument maybe avoid the possibility of that particular question of human rights being addressed again?

The other area is the issue of cross-border policing generally. The Minister mentioned the MoD police, civil nuclear police and British Transport Police. The Scottish Government have taken over the responsibility of the British Transport Police north of the border. Many of us felt that that was a retrograde step too. I am a passionate home ruler, a passionate believer in devolution and supporter of the Scottish Parliament, but I believe that we should also recognise that, as long as we are part of the United Kingdom—which the people of Scotland want us to be—devolution should be to enhance and bring Government closer, but not to undermine the advantages of collective working across the United Kingdom. It seems to me that there will be circumstances where the transport police could be inhibited in their role in cross-border policing. Can the Minister give some clarification as to whether this instrument will affect that positively, negatively or not at all?

I do not have the capacity to go through the whole SI in detail, but there seem to be a number of issues that are really quite important, including to clarify how the devolved and reserved powers can work constructively together—which is why we are not opposing the instrument—but some clarification is nevertheless necessary of what that really means. There also needs to be an understanding, or perhaps appreciation, that the Scottish Government have learned a little bit about their excessive zeal in creating a national police force, which has led to quite considerable friction. I mention again the appearance of mounted police at highland league football matches and routinely arming police officers in rural villages. Things such as that are well within the devolved capacity of the Scottish Government but bring human rights issues into question, so they are not of some indifference to the United Kingdom Government, who have to answer if there are questions of human rights compromises by a devolved Government or Administration.

Having said that, and supporting the passage of the instrument, I would nevertheless appreciate it if the Minister could answer those questions.

[Lord Foulkes of Cumnock (Lab)]

My Lords, I want to raise two points. The first, briefly, is an important one on European arrest warrants and whether there is any implication when—if—we go out of the European Union. Will cross-border activity by police using European arrest warrants be affected?

I have a major objection, however, following up what my noble friend has said. I warn that I am going to cause real trouble on the next instrument. I am sorry that I have not alerted my noble friend and colleague on the Front Bench, but I am not going to support it. I will vote against it. I am not going to agree that it should go forward because of what we have just heard about the British Transport Police—and I feel even more strongly about it. It is a major mistake. We and the Government should recognise now that we have all made a major mistake in agreeing that the responsibility for the British Transport Police should be devolved to Holyrood.

I am in favour of devolution. I campaigned for it and, unlike my noble friend on the Front Bench, I have been a long-standing supporter of devolution. But the way in which it is being dealt with by the Government in relation to the British Transport Police is, quite frankly, dangerous, reckless and ought to be stopped. Ruth Davidson—who I understand is the most important Conservative in the whole United Kingdom—has been attacking this and has said that it should be stopped.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Duncan of Springbank]

I was hoping that there would be another question to give me a minute or two longer. In the absence of that additional question, I will try to answer the questions that I can. First, I welcome the support from the noble Lord, Lord McAvoy, and other noble Lords and recognise the dissent from the noble Lord, Lord Foulkes. I will come back to that point.

In answer to the question from the noble Lord, Lord McAvoy, about the training and the costs of training, the reserved forces operating in Scotland have been trained through existing budgets. Police Scotland has assisted in this by carrying out training courses for those reserved bodies operating in Scotland. It has also continued supporting partner agencies to adjust to the Act. So there should be no additional costs. However, the noble Lord is quite right to raise the question. We need to make sure that we keep an eye on this. Offering training once and believing that that is all is not enough. We need to make sure this is ongoing training and that it is delivering. It is important that we make sure that we are auditing the outcome and output of the training.

In response to the noble Lord, Lord Bruce, who has asked some serious questions about human rights, noble Lords will recall that the Cadder case originated from a human rights issue. That was the reason why the Government were very keen to move forward.

On stop and search, noble Lords will be aware that this is an operational matter, which limits my ability to comment specifically. However, I note again that where there are issues such as this, they can and should be addressed directly through organisations in Scotland. I note that the noble Lord, Lord Foulkes, welcomed, Susan Deacon, the new chair of the oversight body. I believe that that appointment will be a useful addition to the overall oversight matter. These issues need to be addressed directly through that point. If violations of human rights occur, they can be raised and escalated through the different strata. In the first instance, it would be a matter for the Scottish Government to address.

I will come back in a moment to the more complicated question on the British Transport Police. However, in answer to the first question from the noble Lord, Lord Foulkes, the European arrest warrant is still a subject for negotiation, so we do not yet have clarity on exactly what that will mean. If noble Lords will forgive me, I will postpone answering that question until I have an answer to it. That is probably the sensible thing to do.

The noble Lord has made a passionate point about the British Transport Police. I think not a single person on these Benches does not share his concern about some of the issues which seem to be unfolding, not for the sake of better policing or for better serving the people, but rather for a narrower, more factional agenda. I think we all have a certain degree of unease about that particular aspect. The important thing for me to note at this point is that the Smith commission recommended by consensus that powers over this would be devolved back to the Scottish Parliament and to the Scottish Government. In this instance, the Scottish Government are operating within their competence to do so. I share some of the noble Lord’s unease and I am sure that this will not be the end of the matter.

[Lord Foulkes of Cumnock]

On the Smith commission, with no disrespect to the noble Lord, Lord Smith, for whom I have great respect, or to the other members of the commission, it is possible they did not get everything right. They were rushed. They had to do things very quickly and were under a lot of pressure from the SNP in particular. At the end, John Swinney, having signed up and agreed to the Smith commission, said at the press conference that he did not accept the recommendations —an astonishing situation. If they can do that, we have the right to think again as well.

I may be wrong on procedure, but I think that if we do not agree this today, it goes to the House at a later date. That will give the Minister time to think and to consult. In that case, he might be able to consult not only David Mundell and Ruth Davidson but—can I go higher?—even Theresa May about this, because there is genuine concern. I have expressed it strongly, but it is expressed even more strongly by some leading Conservatives as well as other people in my own party. I hope we can have a pause in this statutory instrument. I do not think it would delay it unduly. It would give the Minister time to go back and say, “Look, I as a Minister faced this furore”. Although they have not got to their feet, all the people round the Committee Room were nodding when I was making this point. The Minister has made the point himself and substantially agreed with me. This would give the Minister time to go back and perhaps find a way to get the matter reconsidered.

[Lord Duncan of Springbank]

I will, I hope, be guided on points of procedure regarding the noble Lord’s exact question. However, I know that whatever we agree here today, the order must then move to the Floor of the House, at which point there will, I imagine, be an opportunity for this point to be made in the Chamber and for a Division to be called on the point.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Duncan of Springbank]

That is a very good point indeed. I believe that I will be able to raise this very point both behind the scenes and with my counterparts north of the border, and then it will be discussed more fully in due course.

[Lord Foulkes of Cumnock]

I am grateful for the assurances of the Minister and, even more, of my noble friends, both of whom are part of the usual channels in one way or another. I feel no less strongly about it, but I understand the procedure that should be followed.

[Lord Duncan of Springbank]

I am very happy for that. Again, I will do all I can to take this forward in the manner in which we have discussed over the past few moments.

Prosecutions: Defence Legal Costs

Lord Foulkes of Cumnock Excerpts

Wednesday 15th March 2017 Lords Chamber

[Lord Keen of Elie]

My Lords, there are clearly a variety of ways in which this matter can be addressed. Nevertheless, I fail to understand how someone who has been acquitted could be accused of having brought the prosecution on themselves.

[Lord Foulkes of Cumnock (Lab)]

My Lords, is it simpler in Scotland?

[Lord Keen of Elie]

My Lords, many things are simpler in Scotland. However, in Scotland there is an entirely distinct legal aid scheme which differs in a number of principal regards. Therefore, it is not comparable to the system in England and Wales.

Scottish Independence Referendum

Lord Foulkes of Cumnock Excerpts

Tuesday 14th March 2017 Lords Chamber

[Lord Dunlop]

Yes, I agree with the noble Baroness. I meet many Scottish businesses and have yet to find one which thinks that it is a good idea to engender such uncertainty by calling for another independence referendum. It should be a matter of concern for all of us that the economic data for Scotland show that the Scottish economy is lagging behind the rest of the UK. Those data started coming out before the vote last June. It is a matter that we should attend to. The UK Government are committed to working with the Scottish Government to focus on those issues, which are so important for the Scottish economy.

[Lord Foulkes of Cumnock (Lab)]

Has the Minister noticed, however, that the arguments being used by Nicola Sturgeon for pulling Scotland out of the United Kingdom are exactly the same as those used by Theresa May for pulling the United Kingdom out of the European Union? Does that not create a problem for the Government?

[Lord Dunlop]

The problem for us is an SNP Government, with their one-track mind, using the pretext of Brexit to pursue their obsession with taking Scotland out of the United Kingdom. We know that the UK market is worth four times more to Scottish businesses than the EU market.

Lay Magistrates

Lord Foulkes of Cumnock Excerpts

Monday 20th February 2017 Lords Chamber

[Lord Keen of Elie]

The noble Lord draws attention to a number of issues concerning the disposal of cases between the district court and the magistrates’ court. That will be further addressed in detail as we proceed with the prison and courts reform Bill, which is presently under consideration. I reassure the noble Lord that there is no attempt to direct recruitment towards particular social classes or backgrounds. The 44 advisory committees responsible for recruiting magistrates in England and Wales are concerned to ensure that they recruit talented people from all backgrounds and all communities.

[Lord Foulkes of Cumnock (Lab)]

Has the Minister noticed, as I have, that in response to powerful pleas from Peers on all sides he and his noble friend Lord Nash have merely read out extracts from the brief provided by their civil servants? Are Ministers in the House of Lords no longer allowed to say, “I’ll take that back and discuss it with my colleagues”?

[Lord Keen of Elie]

I was not aware that the noble Lord had read my brief before I arrived in the Chamber. I rather think that if he did he did it in a cursory manner, because I can assure him that the answers I have given have not simply been a recitation of what was in the written brief.

Scottish Government: Welfare

Lord Foulkes of Cumnock Excerpts

Monday 19th December 2016 Lords Chamber

[Lord McAvoy]

To ask Her Majesty’s Government what progress they are making in the transfer of full welfare responsibilities to the Scottish Government as provided for by the Scotland Act 2016.

[Lord Foulkes of Cumnock (Lab)]

My Lords, on behalf of my noble friend Lord McAvoy, and at his request, I beg leave to ask the Question standing in his name on the Order Paper.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Northern Ireland Office and Scotland Office (Lord Dunlop) (Con)]

My Lords, we have made significant progress to transfer the welfare powers in the Scotland Act 2016. Eleven provisions are already in force, including new powers for the Scottish Parliament to create new benefits in devolved areas and top up any reserved benefits. The UK Government remain committed to a safe and secure transfer of powers, and the joint ministerial working group on welfare continues to oversee plans for commencement of the remaining welfare provisions.

[Lord Foulkes of Cumnock]

My Lords, does the Minister recall that time after time the SNP has asked for powers to mitigate the effects of Tory austerity in Scotland? It now has the tax powers and the welfare powers, but it does absolutely nothing. Does that not confirm that it prefers to moan and whine rather than to accept responsibility?

[Lord Dunlop]

I certainly recall what the noble Lord says, and I have a degree of sympathy with what he is saying. It is clear that the Scottish Government are having to face up to the reality that demanding the devolution of more powers is not the same as being able to use those powers effectively. If you want to replace existing programmes, you need first to know what you are replacing them with. The Government’s priority must be and is to work with the Scottish Government to ensure the safe and secure transfer of devolved welfare powers.

Rainsbrook Secure Training Centre

Lord Foulkes of Cumnock Excerpts

Thursday 15th December 2016 Lords Chamber

[Lord Keen of Elie]

It is apparent that perhaps we have to apply more care to the transfer arrangements for institutions of this kind. Indeed, it has been proposed that the original transfer plan for Rainsbrook, which was to complete in November 2016, will probably extend to March 2017 in order to address these issues.

[Lord Foulkes of Cumnock (Lab)]

My Lords, has the House noticed that the Questions put to the Government Front Bench today have been answered by one Member from Wales and two from Scotland, while from the Opposition Front Bench we have had one Scot, and from the Back Benches a number of Scots, notwithstanding the excellent contribution by the noble Lord, Lord Forsyth? Does the Minister agree that this shows the value to this House of a whole United Kingdom and that we should redouble our efforts to fight the separatists who would split us asunder?

[Lord Keen of Elie]

I concur with the noble Lord’s observations and would observe that this Government are committed to ethnic diversity.

Criminal Justice System: Diversity

Lord Foulkes of Cumnock Excerpts

Thursday 15th December 2016 Lords Chamber

[Lord Keen of Elie]

We are extremely concerned about the youth offender institutions and are taking forward the proposals noted by Charlie Taylor’s review with regard to introducing further education and training into that regime.

[Lord Foulkes of Cumnock (Lab)]

It is not just in the justice system that black and minority-ethnic people are discriminated against. Is the Minister aware that, at a recent meeting of a Select Committee, the chairman of the Charity Commission had to admit that there are no black and ethnic-minority people on the Charity Commission, which is a disgrace? On top of that, there are no members from the whole of the north of England. The Charity Commission is an elite body run by Mr Shawcross and his cronies and something ought to be done about it. Will he have a word with his colleagues to see what can be done?

[Lord Keen of Elie]

I am not in a position to comment on the constitution of the Charity Commission and I am obliged for the noble Lord’s suggestion that I should have a look at it. Clearly, I will. Beyond that, I am not able to comment.