Strathclyde Review

Lord Foulkes of Cumnock Excerpts

Thursday 17th November 2016 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Evans of Bowes Park]

I do not want to give answers that diminish the enthusiasm we are showing today, but I shall not make promises I cannot keep. I add my thanks for the work of the Constitution Committee, both for its report on this review and for its wider work, which is extremely valuable and well respected.

[Lord Foulkes of Cumnock (Lab)]

My Lords, I was slightly worried that the Leader of the House was implying that she and the Government would have an easy time when it came to scrutinising all aspects of Brexit. The legislation that gave us the referendum was itself flawed, in that it had a very restrictive franchise and no threshold, and it was not, in my view, considered properly by Parliament. As a result of that we are in a mess. That is why it is very important to scrutinise every aspect of Brexit and all the consequences, which are huge and serious, not just in Scotland and Northern Ireland but throughout the whole of the United Kingdom, affecting the constitution of this country as well as its stability and prosperity. If we do not scrutinise them properly, we are not doing our job.

[Baroness Evans of Bowes Park]

My Lords, I am under no illusions about the task that we have ahead and the role this House will play in scrutinising legislation relating to Brexit. As I said, noble Lords have already taken a constructive approach in dealing with the debates we have had so far, and I have faith that this will continue. As I said to the noble Lord, Lord McNally, we are also reliant on self-regulation and discipline to ensure the passage of legislation. We hope that that will continue.

Outcome of the European Union Referendum

Lord Foulkes of Cumnock Excerpts

Tuesday 5th July 2016 Lords Chamber

[The Lord Privy Seal (Baroness Stowell of Beeston) (Con)]

My Lords, our debate today has the potential to be one of the most significant in the recent history of your Lordships’ House. Indeed, I see today as a real opportunity for us as a House to reflect on the decision that has been made and to offer some clear thinking about the issues we now face as a country. It is an opportunity for the House of Lords to show why it exists.

In repeating several Statements over the last week, I have set out the views of Her Majesty’s Government, and I want today to be much more than an occasion for me to set them out again. Over the next two days my noble friend Lady Anelay and I are here primarily to listen, so, in opening, I will try to start the process of reflection by offering my perspective both on the vote itself and on the responsibilities incumbent on this House, as I see them, in the weeks and months ahead.

To state the obvious first, the referendum was a momentous democratic exercise. Over the weeks of the campaign we saw passionate cases put forward by both sides and, more importantly, we saw voters engage with an enthusiasm that we had not seen for many years. Indeed, more than 33 million people from across the UK and Gibraltar exercised their democratic right.

I appreciate that when the votes were counted it was not the result that many of us may have wanted— indeed, 48% of us voted to remain—but the result was clear. By a margin of more than 1 million, 52% of the people who voted elected for the United Kingdom to leave the European Union—an instruction that this Government, and all of us, must respect and seek to act on.

[Lord Foulkes of Cumnock (Lab)]

Will the noble Baroness give way?

[Noble Lords]

No.

European Council

Lord Foulkes of Cumnock Excerpts

Wednesday 29th June 2016 Lords Chamber

[The Earl of Courtown]

I apologise to the noble Baroness. We have had 20 minutes of Back-Bench debate on this and we will now move on to the next Statement.

[Lord Foulkes of Cumnock (Lab)]

Extend the time.

[Baroness Stowell of Beeston]

Order, order. I am so sorry, my Lords. As noble Lords know, we do not have points of order in this House.

[Lord Foulkes of Cumnock]

Why?

[Baroness Stowell of Beeston]

We are now moving on to the next Statement. The noble Lord asks about the time allocated to Back-Bench questions. As he knows—I think that he was here in the House on Monday—I was very happy to extend the time on Monday for Back-Bench questions. I have repeated this Statement today. We have scheduled time on Tuesday next week for a full day’s debate for noble Lords to debate Europe and we will have a series of debates on Thursday. I know that there is much that noble Lords want to debate and question, and there will be lots of opportunities, but I am afraid that we have to continue with our other business. My noble friend Lord Ahmad is about to make a very important Statement which covers some of the topics that noble Lords have been raising. I am sorry, but we are going to move on. I just want to explain to the House what it is that we are doing right now. My noble friend is now going to move on.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Stoddart of Swindon (Ind Lab)]

My Lords—

[Lord Foulkes of Cumnock]

My Lords—

[Noble Lords]

Order!

[Lord Foulkes of Cumnock]

My Lords—

[The Earl of Courtown]

Order, order.

[Lord Foulkes of Cumnock]

My Lords—

[The Earl of Courtown]

My Lords, will the noble Lord give way? The whole House is perfectly aware of his thoughts on this matter but, in this instance, we are moving on to the other Statement now.

Business of the House

Lord Foulkes of Cumnock Excerpts

Thursday 9th June 2016 Lords Chamber

[The Lord Privy Seal (Baroness Stowell of Beeston) (Con)]

My Lords, I beg to move the first Motion standing in my name on the Order Paper.

[Lord Foulkes of Cumnock (Lab)]

My Lords, I wonder whether the Leader of the House can help me in relation to business of the House. In the other place, if a Minister misleads the House, it can be raised on a point of order. We do not have that procedure. On Tuesday, the noble Baroness, Lady Verma, told the House that the St Helena airport was open, and it is not. She said that RMS “St Helena” was going to be available to continue taking people on and off the island; at that very moment, RMS “St Helena” was sailing up the Thames, about to be decommissioned, apparently. Could the Leader of the House arrange for the noble Baroness, Lady Verma, to make a Statement to the House next week correcting the mistake she has made and giving us true information about the situation regarding the airport on St Helena?

[Baroness Stowell of Beeston]

On the procedural point that the noble Lord raised, as he has acknowledged, we do not have points of order in this House. That is an established arrangement in the way we conduct our business. I will have to take away the substantive point that he has raised and explore it further, and give it proper and due consideration.

House of Lords: Composition

Lord Foulkes of Cumnock Excerpts

Tuesday 24th May 2016 Lords Chamber

Asked by

[Lord Foulkes of Cumnock]

To ask Her Majesty’s Government what plans they have to make the composition of the House of Lords more representative of the nations and regions of the United Kingdom.

[The Lord Privy Seal (Baroness Stowell of Beeston) (Con)]

My Lords, Members of your Lordships’ House come from all corners of the United Kingdom, but we do not represent those nations and regions. We all work on behalf of the United Kingdom as a whole. Any change in that respect would be fundamental. As is clear from the Conservative manifesto, comprehensive reform of this House is not a priority in this Parliament.

[Lord Foulkes of Cumnock (Lab)]

Did the Leader of the House not see the Answer that I received from her colleague in the Ministry of Justice which stated that out of 808 Writs issued to Peers to attend this House in this Parliament, 385 were to Peers living in London, with very few in Wales, in the east and West Midlands, in the north-east and north-west of England and in Yorkshire and Humberside? To reflect all those interests properly, is it not better to have people from all quarters of the United Kingdom? Will the Leader of the House look at ways in which this terrible imbalance can be rectified?

[Baroness Stowell of Beeston]

My Lords, the noble Lord is right that certain parts of the United Kingdom are better represented than others. I believe that for us to be effective as a House it is important that we all offer a range of backgrounds, experiences and expertise. However, because we are unelected and do not have responsibility to represent any parts of the United Kingdom, it is not an easy question for us to remedy, but it is certainly one that I shall reflect on.

Adult Education: Part-time Attendance

Lord Foulkes of Cumnock Excerpts

Wednesday 9th March 2016 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Evans of Bowes Park]

This Government are taking a number of steps to help to encourage part-time learning. For instance, we will be introducing maintenance loans for part-time students for the first time, and we have expanded second degree student support funding for those who want to study a STEM subject. We have also expanded the advanced learner loan system, so from 2016-17 learners aged 19 and over studying at levels 3 to 6 will be able to access that support. We are doing what we can to provide people who want to study part-time with the support to do so.

[Lord Foulkes of Cumnock (Lab)]

I thought that there could not be a worse Government than this Tory one for butchering further education until I looked at Scotland, where there are now 150,000 fewer places in FE than there were when the SNP took over. Are the Tories and the SNP in some kind of Dutch auction to see who can reduce further education places to their lowest number?

[Baroness Evans of Bowes Park]

I am very pleased to reassure the noble Lord that in fact, under this Government in the last spending review, we have protected FE budgets at £1.5 billion over the course of the Parliament. Therefore I am sure that the noble Lord will recognise how much the Government are doing to support FE and will want to congratulate us on doing so.

Women: Representation

Lord Foulkes of Cumnock Excerpts

Tuesday 8th March 2016 Lords Chamber

[Lord Lexden (Con)]

My Lords, is it not worthy of note that two out of the three devolved Governments in our country are now led by women?

[Lord Foulkes of Cumnock (Lab)]

The wrong women.

[Baroness Evans of Bowes Park]

My noble friend Lord Lexden makes a very good point and I am happy to agree with him.

European Council

Lord Foulkes of Cumnock Excerpts

Monday 22nd February 2016 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Stowell of Beeston]

My noble friend is right to say that there is an alternative—of course there is an alternative. That is why there are two choices for the British people: to leave or to remain. The alternative—and it may be something like the Norway model—is not inconceivable, but it would not be without cost and is not something that we should walk blindly into without recognising that it brings with it its own disadvantages. We have to be clear what the alternative is. That is what the next few weeks and months will have to be about in this debate: if there is an alternative, what is it?

[Lord Foulkes of Cumnock (Lab)]

My Lords, can I follow up on the particular point that has just been raised and the excellent point that was raised by my noble friend Lord Hain? Since the Minister and I are on exactly the same side—enthusiastically, and for the first time ever, I think—can I ask her a favour? Will she go back to the Cabinet and say, “Let us find some way of requiring these people who are against the present arrangement to put forward their alternatives so that we can examine them in detail”? They need to be required to do that so we can see clearly what the alternative is. If the Cabinet can come up with some kind of arrangement for that, I will give it and the Minister three cheers.

[Baroness Stowell of Beeston]

It is for those who want to campaign to leave to come up with their arguments and the case for that. It is not for me, on the opposite side of the argument, to try to find a mechanism for them to do so; that is their responsibility. We will go through the process of formally designating the leave campaign and, as part of that process, I imagine that the respective group that is successful will be the one that the Electoral Commission feels has covered all the requirements set out for it.

European Union: United Kingdom Renegotiation

Lord Foulkes of Cumnock Excerpts

Thursday 4th February 2016 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Stowell of Beeston]

I am happy to reassure my noble friend about two things on the emergency brake. First, the Commission has made it clear that in its view the emergency brake would apply immediately, assuming that the British people decide that they want to remain in Europe. It is worth reminding ourselves that not only has the Commission said that but President Juncker also said yesterday that this was a good deal in response to the failure of the previous Labour Government to protect the UK from an increase in immigration from the accession countries when they had opportunity to do so. This has been signalled as a ready-to-apply and will apply immediately if this is what the British people vote for.

Secondly, as far as benefits at local rate are concerned, the Prime Minister outlined our response and reaction to what is in the Tusk proposal. Clearly, we are confident that if that is what is in the deal and package we would be able to administer that arrangement.

[Lord Foulkes of Cumnock (Lab)]

My Lords, will the noble Baroness the Leader confirm that it is the United Kingdom that is the member of the European Union and that it does not matter if any principality, province or nation of the United Kingdom votes differently? It is the decision of the people of the whole of the United Kingdom that will be decisive in the referendum.

[Baroness Stowell of Beeston]

I want to take this rare opportunity to say to the noble Lord, Lord Foulkes, that I agree with him.

Strathclyde Review

Lord Foulkes of Cumnock Excerpts

Wednesday 13th January 2016 Lords Chamber

[Lord Foulkes of Cumnock (Lab)]

My Lords, like the noble Lord, Lord Skelmersdale, I shall take a slightly different tack, but first I say that I have great respect— indeed, affection—for the noble Lord, Lord Strathclyde, although he organised the Conservative campaign against me in election after election in Carrick, Cumnock and Doon Valley. Mind you, my majority went up each time, so maybe I should thank him.

We have to remember that this report was not requested by this House or Parliament, but was instructed, as it were, by the Government in a fit of pique, and we have to take account of that. The heading of this debate is “Secondary Legislation and the Primacy of the House of Commons”, but, as others have said, it is not really about that at all. This is really about Parliament’s scrutiny of the Executive. That is coming up again and again in this debate.

We could ask why we need a second Chamber. After all, not all countries’ parliaments have a second Chamber. Mind you, as my noble friend Lord Darling said in his excellent maiden speech, in Scotland, we are seeing the effect of having a one-Chamber Parliament with one party in control, and that raises some concerns.

There are other arguments. For more than 50 years, I have supported first past the post for the House of Commons. It was right and defensible, not just because of the link with Members, as I found in my constituency, but because when nearly 80% of the electorate voted—as happened in my constituency, certainly in 1979—about 80% of the people who voted did so for one or other of the two main parties. Now we have a multiparty system, and a lot of people—even me—are beginning to question whether a party with less than one-quarter of the electorate supporting it really has a mandate and can say that this House must accept what the other place is doing because of that mandate. We must remember that the legislation is put forward by the Government in that place.

Meanwhile, we particularly need an effective revising Chamber. I am in favour of major reform, of a senate of the nations and regions replacing this unelected Chamber with a more responsible and accountable Chamber. Meanwhile, we need to look at how we can improve the existing system. The current proposals are entirely the wrong way of doing it, as a number of people have said. Look at yesterday’s House of Commons Hansard and see whether anyone here can understand what was happening. There was absolute chaos in the House of Commons. The noble Lord, Lord Lisvane, predicted exactly what would happen. It was total chaos as the Speaker ruled that the Bill could be voted on only by English Members. The Deputy Speaker took a vote by acclamation. I think she had to work out whether only English accents were saying “Aye” or “No” to decide whether the legislation passed. What happened was absolutely ridiculous.

We have had too many of these quick political fixes, as my noble friend Lord Darling said. We need a comprehensive review. The Labour group in this Chamber produced an excellent report. My noble friend Lady Taylor was one of the joint chairs. It did not just deal with how SIs are dealt with in this House but looked at the whole question of the structure, composition and role of the House. With respect to the current Leader of the House, she has paid scant attention to that report. A lot of work was put into it by a lot of people over a long period, looking at all aspects of the House. Frankly, unless we look at the House in that comprehensive way rather than go on with this piecemeal reform, we will get into more difficulties.

This has been an excellent debate. I have sat through most of it and found it really fantastic. I enjoyed Monday’s debate on the Trade Union Bill, but this debate has been even better. A tremendous range of suggestions has been put forward by noble Lords including the noble Lord, Lord Norton, and my noble friend Lady Hollis. The Leader of the House needs to treat this debate really seriously. I do not think anyone here would expect her to deal with the individual suggestions and proposals—there have been so many really good proposals—immediately in her reply, but we need to get from her an assurance that the Government will look at each and every one of the proposals, alternatives, additions and suggestions that have been put forward. With no disrespect to my noble friend Lord Strathclyde—he is my personal friend—I do not think his is the only way forward. There are many other ways forward. I hope the Leader of the House will look at this in a comprehensive, coherent and holistic—I think it was the noble Lord, Lord Norton, who used that term—way. I hope that will be the guiding principle as we look forward so that we do not continue with piecemeal reform, which is causing so much disrespect and so many problems within not just this Chamber but in the other Chamber, and does not enhance the reputation of this Parliament.

--- Later in debate ---

[Baroness Stowell of Beeston]

It had already decided what its view was on the statutory instrument and we do not have that mechanism for a dialogue.

The role of this House and its powers on SIs is not a new issue; this is something that we have heard from many noble Lords speaking today. My noble friend Lord Wakeham, through his royal commission, and other noble Lords have grappled with this issue in the past. Over the past few months, and indeed through today’s debate, what has crystallised, for me, is the fact that there is no clear agreement among us about how we exercise our powers. We are still debating and still disagreeing today about whether the Motions that were tabled in October were fatal or non-fatal. I feel that, for us to be effective, we cannot sustain that lack of agreement between us about how we use our powers.

The noble Lord, Lord Grocott, was the first person that I noted down who said, “It’s not broke so let’s not fix it”, but he was not the only one who made that point; in fact, the noble Lord, Lord Hunt of Kings Heath, said the same. But, as my noble friend Lord Strathclyde and others argued, conventions work only when both sides agree on what they mean in practice. The noble Lord, Lord Grocott, looked back on the submissions made by my noble friend when we were in opposition. I also looked at the submissions made to the Joint Committee on Conventions by the noble Lord’s Government when they were in power. Back then, the then Labour Government said in their submission:

“A contested convention is not a convention at all”.

I agree. That is the problem we have at the moment—we are contesting.

For us to fulfil our role effectively, we need clarity, simplicity and certainty—what my noble friend outlined as principles in his report—and we need to ensure that the other place has the decisive say on secondary legislation, just as is the case when we consider Bills. My noble friend’s report gives us the opportunity to consider how we could do things differently and tackle the long-standing questions raised.

Before I talk about some of the options that my noble friend outlined and the responses to some of those that he put forward, I should be clear that the Government are still listening. Tonight I will not offer any government response to what he put forward in his report—the options and the recommendation. In terms of considering the way forward, the Government will take account of this debate, which is why it has been such a valuable exercise. The noble Lord, Lord Foulkes, asked earlier that we should consider, and I am considering what has been argued—I am taking it on board. I have listened carefully to the debate tonight.

[Lord Foulkes of Cumnock]

I respect what the noble Baroness says, but in her remarks so far she gives no evidence whatever of having taken account of any of the comments made right around the House. Could she make it clear how all the points made—the very good suggestions from every quarter of the House—will be brought together, considered by the Government and dealt with? Will they look at setting up a Joint Committee?

[Baroness Stowell of Beeston]

I am conscious of time; everybody is tired. I am going to come on to that; I have just said that that is what I am going to come on to, and I will.

Some noble Lords thought that it would be best to proceed without legislation and instead to codify the convention; certainly there is an argument to be made in respect of that, but that approach would require us to restore a shared understanding about the convention underpinning our power of veto. Most noble Lords focused their comments on the third option put forward by my noble friend, the one that he recommends—as he described it, the ping without a pong. He suggests that that would replace this House’s power of veto with a new power to ask the other place to think again, with the House of Commons having the final say.

What he is recommending there is what noble Lords are arguing for. However, some thought that it would be necessary to retain the veto available to us now. I stress again that all these things are under consideration, but it is important for me to point out that we do not have an absolute veto when it comes to primary legislation. The new power that my noble friend suggests would be more in keeping with the role of this House, and the desire it has to ask the other House to think again.

The noble Baronesses, Lady Taylor and Lady Smith, and the noble Lord, Lord Hunt, and others asked me from the Labour side of the House to consider what was possible that would have some longevity and was not about just advancement for any particular party in government. Again, I found it very helpful to revisit what the Labour Party said to the Joint Committee on Conventions about the veto when they were in power. Forgive me for singling out the noble Lord, Lord Grocott, again but it was he who made this point to the Joint Committee. He said that,

“the House of Lords can veto secondary legislation … the very legitimate question arises … whether it would be sensible to consider the proposition that the Lords in respect of secondary legislation should do what it does with primary legislation, and see its function as being a delaying, revising chamber but not a vetoing chamber. That is really the question that is being put”.

--- Later in debate ---

[Baroness Stowell of Beeston]

The point is to make sure that the House of Commons has the final say on secondary legislation. It has set out how it wishes to consider what has been put forward by my noble friend. He has put forward his options after extensive consultation with Members of the other place, as well as with Members of your Lordships’ House.

There is clearly much for me to reflect on from this debate. I will do so with my colleagues in government. I am sincere when I say that the contributions have been very valuable. We have not come to any conclusions in government.

[Lord Foulkes of Cumnock]

The noble Baroness has said that she has not come to any conclusion, yet she has said that she is not going forward with a Joint Committee. How are the Government going forward? A lot of good suggestions have been made in this House. If we are not to waste the whole day that we have spent on this, she must indicate to the House how the Government will take this forward.

[Baroness Stowell of Beeston]

I have said what we are doing. We will reflect on the very important points that have been made today. My noble friend Lord Trefgarne and his committee will be looking at what has been put forward. There may be other committees of your Lordships’ House that wish to do so as well. We will be considering this in the period ahead; at an appropriate point we will consider which is the best way forward, and I will return to your Lordships’ House.

My noble friend has done a comprehensive piece of work. As my noble friend Lord Wakeham said, what is in my noble friend’s report is very similar to what was in the report of his commission 16 years ago. Many noble Lords have pointed to that as a way forward. I am not reaching any conclusion tonight on the right way forward, but my noble friend Lord Wakeham’s point is very important and it is worth us all dwelling on it.