European Union (Referendum) Bill Debate
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Lord Foulkes of Cumnock
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European Union (Referendum) Bill
Lord Foulkes of Cumnock Excerpts(10 years, 10 months ago)
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Lord Foulkes of Cumnock (Lab)
My Lords, I apologise if I appear less lucid than I hope I usually am.
Lord Foulkes of Cumnock
Who said never? I have just travelled back overnight from the United States.
Lord Foulkes of Cumnock
I was there with the noble Lord, Lord Jopling, who told me that he would have made a lot of money if he had been able to keep me there. But I managed to escape and here I am. Earlier on, it sounded as though the noble Lord, Lord Dobbs, had been flying overnight.
Lord Foulkes of Cumnock
I will get on with it, as my noble friend said.
I was there with the European Union Sub-Committee on External Affairs, which is not irrelevant to what we are talking about today—to the Bill as a whole and indeed to this amendment. We were there to discuss with senators, congressmen and members of the Administration the proposed TTIP, the trade and investment deal between the European Union and the United States, dealing with important issues such as financial services, agriculture, automobiles and so forth. It is because we are a member of the European Union that we are part of that and we can benefit from that trade deal as well as many other trade deals.
It was very interesting because, in the margins, just about everyone we spoke to, including the trade union—the AFLCIO—businessmen, senators and congressmen, said that they hoped that the United Kingdom would stay in the European Union. The Americans overwhelmingly believe that it is important from our point of view, from the European Union point of view and from their point of view.
I return to the Bill and this amendment. I am grateful for the support of the noble Lord, Lord Trefgarne. I bumped into him earlier on and described him as the custodian of the Companion. I respect him in that capacity. I will keep an eye on him and he will be keeping an eye me to make sure that I stay in order.
I said in my initial speech that the Bill is not fit for purpose. These amendments and many of the amendments that we will deal with today point out some of the problems, omissions and inadequacies of the Bill as drafted. I do not know who drafted the Bill, but it certainly does not have the fingerprints of good parliamentary draftsmen. It is totally inadequate.
Some people in Scotland think, and we can take the Scottish referendum as an example, that if—heaven forbid—they vote yes on 18 September this year then if not immediately within very quick succession Scotland will become an independent nation. However, it is not as simple as that; it is not at all simple. It is up to Parliament—this Parliament—to consider the result of that referendum, to legislate, and to negotiate and discuss it with the Scottish Government.
Similarly, there is a view that if 50% plus one vote for the United Kingdom to move out of the European Union, that would happen very quickly. However, again, that is not the case. It is up to Parliament to assess the result, which is why subsequent amendments that say Parliament must assess whether the result of the referendum is “definitive and beyond challenge”. It would create tremendous problems if it was challenged. The problems could arise, first, if the referendum was very close indeed, especially if there were a lot of spoilt ballot papers, which there could be—we have known elections where the number of spoilt ballot papers has exceeded the majority vote. In a referendum, that would mean that the result could be challenged.
We will come to amendments later about counting in each of the constituent parts of the United Kingdom: England, Wales, Northern Ireland and Scotland. If there was a different result, for example, in Scotland, as we discussed briefly last Friday, we should think of the consequences of that. Indeed, there are other consequences in other parts of the United Kingdom. What if the result of the referendum was very close? Under the Bill, everyone who has a vote for a UK European Parliament constituency will be voting in this referendum, which means that people from Gibraltar will be voting. We will come to those amendments in more detail later on, but just imagine if, on a very close result, the outcome of the referendum as to whether the United Kingdom should remain a member of the European Union was decided by the votes of the people of Gibraltar. That would be astonishing, but it could happen. These are the kind of things that we have to take account of.
Later on, we will discuss who votes in the referendum, which is relevant to this as well. We will discuss whether 16 and 17 year-olds should vote, and whether European Union citizens living in the United Kingdom or UK citizens living in Europe should. Again, whether or not we incorporate and accept any of those amendments—I hope we will—will affect the outcome of the referendum as well. These are important matters, which is why the gravamen of what I am proposing is that, ultimately, this Parliament should decide.
Lord Foulkes of Cumnock
The record shows that my critics are completely wrong, as my noble friends rightly agree. All the records show that none of my speeches is more than 10 minutes, and neither is this one. I beg to move.
The Lord Speaker (Baroness D'Souza)
I remind your Lordships that if Amendment 50 is agreed, I cannot call Amendment 50A by reason of pre-emption.
Lord Dobbs
The noble Lord has made his point, again. I think that it is a point that he made last week in Committee and I suspect that we may hear more of it again today. Of course Parliament decides, and we discussed that in Committee last week, but there comes a point when all these nostrums about parliamentary sovereignty require a dose of carbolic and common sense, when we need to find a democratic balance. That balance is not achieved by this unelected House obstructing the clearly expressed view of the other place. Parliament is sovereign, of course it is, but even above a sovereign Parliament there are the people. When the people have expressed their will, it is a terrible thing for any House of Parliament to defy. What British Parliament, as sovereign as it may be, would be unwise enough to turn around to the people and say, “We hear you but we choose to ignore you”?
Noble Lords opposite have taken us around the planet. They have taken advice from Brussels to Washington and have sought advice from Strasbourg and in Japan, yet they are completely failing to convince anyone that they are keen to take the advice of the people. If we pursue these amendments, we are doing only one thing—turning around to the people and saying that their voice, will and instruction are not enough, and that we unelected politicians know better. That is why they are so disillusioned and why we need a referendum to cleanse these stables. If that is the side of the barricade where the noble Lord wishes to take a stand, that is his choice. Otherwise, though, I beg him to withdraw his amendment.
Lord Foulkes of Cumnock
My Lords, with respect, the noble Lord, Lord Dobbs, has not addressed any of the amendments or replied to any of the points made in the debate. All that he has done is repeat what he said last week about the right of the people to decide. It is totally inadequate for him to go on repeating that again and again in reply to every amendment. Surely the promoter of the Bill should deal with the points raised in some of the brilliant speeches that have been made.
The defects of the Bill have been coming out thick and fast in this debate. My noble friend Lady Andrews has said that there is no Explanatory Memorandum— why not? The noble Lord did not reply to that. I asked last week why there were no schedules to the Bill. A Bill of this kind, as my noble friend Lord Hennessy will know as an expert in these matters, should have schedules setting out the conduct of the referendum so that we know exactly how it is going to be carried out.
My noble friend Lord Anderson raised a very important constitutional point about what the officials in the Box are here for. Are they officials of the Conservative Party advising the noble Lord, Lord Dobbs, or are they from the Foreign Office? We have not had a reply to that. The noble Baroness, Lady Warsi, has not spoken. Last week we got her into some difficulty, but on this occasion either she or the noble Lord the Leader of the House would be welcome to intervene and explain why, if they are Foreign Office officials, they are there.
Lord Foulkes of Cumnock
This is a very important point. My noble friend Lord Anderson has been a Member of the other place and of this House for some time, and he was an official in the Foreign Office, so he understands how these things work. The House needs to know. Is the promoter of this private Bill being advised and handed notes by officials of the Foreign Office, paid for by the taxpayer?
The Senior Minister of State, Department for Communities and Local Government & Foreign and Commonwealth Office (Baroness Warsi) (Con)
My Lords, if the House really wants to know the answer then maybe I should give it. In the Box we have officials from the Foreign Office, who have prepared a government brief on a government position on many issues that will be arising during the Bill. They are government officials providing a government line on elements that may come up during the Bill upon which there is an agreed government line. Also in the Box I have my special adviser. He is there to provide me with any political lines, and it is those that are prepared by the Conservative Party. There is a clear distinction.
Lord Hill of Oareford
I shall be brief because I do not think there is much I can add. I think I have set the position out extremely clearly. I do not think there is any confusion. It is the case that Ministers speak from the Front Bench; they therefore speak from the Dispatch Box. On the rare occasions when there is not an agreed collective position, they are obviously under an obligation to make clear when they are speaking solely in their capacity as a member of a party. My noble friend will do that. I think it is clear. I regret if there has been any confusion, but I hope the House now understands the position.
Lord Foulkes of Cumnock
My Lords, this has been a very illuminating intervention in my reply to the debate. However, with respect to the Leader of the House, he still has not clarified the point raised by my noble friend Lord Anderson, which I also raised, about the officials who appear to be advising not just the noble Baroness, Lady Warsi, but the noble Lord, Lord Dobbs.
Lord Hill of Oareford
My noble friend Lady Warsi was extremely clear about that as well. As it happens, there is a convention that we should not name people in the House who are not Members. That aside, we have clearly gone past that point. My noble friend made very clear the distinction, which anyone who has been a Minister will understand, that there are civil servants and officials to advise on government policy and a political person to advise on political matters. I have always believed extremely strongly in the traditional distinction in our system between civil servants who properly should stay one side of the line. I expect all civil servants to do that, to know very well how to tread the right side of the line and to make sure that Ministers do not step over it. Political advisers are another matter. That is the distinction, and that is the way it operates.
Lord Foulkes of Cumnock
I am very grateful to the Leader of the House. That is absolutely clear. I now return to what I was saying earlier. Incidentally, I hope I will be given injury time and that people outside will not take all those interventions as part of my response.
I want to return to what the noble Lord, Lord Cormack, said. I have great respect for him. We served together for a long time in the House of Commons. I was quite surprised that he returned again to the steamroller argument that we have to get this through, that we are not able to carry out our role of scrutinising properly and that we have this arbitrary deadline. I am replying to that very inadequately, but it was replied to very adequately by my noble friend Lord Richard, who has 25 years’ experience in this House and is a former Leader of the Opposition. I hope the noble Lord, Lord Cormack, will pay attention to that.
Lord Foulkes of Cumnock
Yes, former Leader of the House.
This Bill has been criticised by people like the noble Lord, Lord Hannay, with a distinguished record in the Civil Service, who has described it as reckless, and by people like my noble friend Lord Giddens, a distinguished scholar, who has warned of possible protracted legal challenges. These are the kind of things that the promoter of the Bill should take account of and answer in debate. He should deal with them and he has dealt with none of them. Not one of them has been dealt with. He is totally inadequate in promoting this Bill.
My noble friend Lord Triesman gave a brilliant reply. It was one of those speeches which you wish you had made yourself, because it was so eloquent. It was a brilliant analysis—I will get the money later.
Lord Cormack
The noble Lord, Lord Triesman, made it quite plain that he was speaking for himself.
Lord Foulkes of Cumnock
He was not speaking for me—I wish he had been, if you see what I mean—but I agree with everything he said. Have I got that right? Yes. As he pointed out, we are not talking just about election to a constituency in a general election, when, of course, a few votes here or there can decide it, but it can change in five years’ time, and things change again and again. We are talking about an irrevocable decision, and if that irrevocable decision is made on a low turnout by just a few people or if it is made by the people of Gibraltar, because the vote is so close, it would really be an outrage.
I believe that this amendment is the right one. However, it has been pointed out to me that it is technically deficient; it is not drafted in the right way. There are other amendments later that would do the same thing, which we can consider when we get to them. Therefore, for that reason and for that reason alone, I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.
“Count for votes cast
The count for votes cast in the referendum shall be carried out and declared separately for—(a) Scotland;(b) Wales;(c) Northern Ireland; and(d) England.”
Lord Foulkes of Cumnock
My Lords, this amendment can be dealt with relatively briefly—by me, certainly. The amendment before your Lordships requires that the votes cast in any referendum on Britain’s membership of the European Union would,
“be carried out and declared separately for”,
each of the component nations of the United Kingdom. We have already discussed why a referendum should not result in Britain leaving the EU unless it secures a simple majority in each of the component parts of the United Kingdom, so I will not go further into that.
The purpose of the amendment is to ensure that the result of any EU referendum is agreed across the length and breadth of the United Kingdom by counting, and publicising the overall result, in individual component nations. Only if that is done will the referendum be seen as legitimate and will those who wish to break up the union be forced to admit, for good or ill, that whatever Britain’s relationship with Europe may be, it was consensually agreed upon by the whole of the United Kingdom and not imposed on any part. I so move.
Amendment 53 (to Amendment 52)
Lord Foulkes of Cumnock
My Lords, I assure the noble Lord, Lord Dobbs, that I have not spoken to the Guardian about this issue, so, if an article has appeared on it, that was certainly not my doing. However, if Guardian staff do want to talk to me, I am very happy to do so.
I remind the House that we are talking about counts rather than eligibility to vote, although I can understand why we have strayed into eligibility to vote. The noble Lord, Lord Kerr, rightly made some ironic comments. I agree with him and the noble Lord, Lord Anderson, that the people of Gibraltar should be able to vote on this issue. However, it is ironic if they are able to vote on it but not EU citizens living in the United Kingdom who are taxpayers—the noble Lord, Lord Shipley, has tabled an excellent amendment on that matter—or British expatriates living in the south of Spain who have a very strong interest in it. I have tabled a later amendment on that issue which I hope we will discuss when we reach it.
The noble Lord, Lord Kerr, referred to a consensus. I was a bit hard on the noble Lord, Lord Dobbs, earlier when I thought that he had not replied satisfactorily to our amendment. As he knows, I respect him. However, I agree with the noble Lord, Lord Kerr, that a Bill’s sponsor has a responsibility to take on board the feeling of the House without a vote necessarily taking place on an issue, or to give a commitment in Committee that, between the stages of the Bill, he will look at the arguments that have been put forward and come back with amendments. I hope that the noble Lord, Lord Dobbs, will do that in relation to separate counts.
The noble Lord, Lord Roper, for whom I have the greatest respect, and who has great experience as a chairman of the European Union Select Committee and from his many previous positions and his long membership of this House, endorsed what I and the noble Lord, Lord Anderson, said about schedules. I say to the noble Lord, Lord Dobbs, that it would greatly help the proper consideration of the Bill if, between now and Report, he talked to the Public Bill Office. It is full of enthusiastic people who want to help noble Lords draft measures and who can suggest amendments and schedules. It would be good to have a schedule on the conduct of the referendum, as we have had in previous Bills. In the hope that the noble Lord might listen to our plea—it is not just my plea, but our plea—and that we do not have to divide so often but that he will accept later amendments in Committee and will come up with his own suggestions on Report, I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.