Welfare Reform Bill

Lord Foulkes of Cumnock Excerpts

Tuesday 4th October 2011 Grand Committee

[The Deputy Chairman of Committees (Viscount Ullswater)]

If there is a Division in the Chamber while we are sitting, this Committee will adjourn as soon as the Division Bells are rung, and resume after 10 minutes.

[Lord Foulkes of Cumnock]

I was hoping that I was not going to have to get up and that the Whips would immediately get up. I raised at the beginning of the Committee the problems that will be faced by Members of the House with severe disabilities getting down to vote in the Division Lobby if there is a Division in the House. I was assured by the Whip that there would be an indication that some arrangements had been made through the usual channels to ensure that that could be dealt with appropriately.

[Lord Shutt of Greetland]

My Lords, this looks like two bites at the same cherry, because I believe that this has been dealt with. There will be 10 minutes, and the Chairman has discretion to extend that time. I understand that there has been a usual-channels agreement that there will not be voting downstairs today, but who knows—things can change. That, I understand, is the agreement for today. However, if ultimately there were to be a Division, there is the 10 minutes, and there is discretion to extend that.

This would be an extreme position for today only. A paper is about to be brought to the House, prior to the next meeting of this Committee on Thursday, saying that Members with mobility problems who are in this Room will be able to vote in the Room, and the votes will be taken downstairs. But because that paper has not yet gone to the House, today is different. If there were to be a vote today, and there is real need, that 10-minute period would be extended if Members had difficulty in getting down to vote.

[Lord Foulkes of Cumnock]

I am grateful to the Whip for that explanation. I had heard through what I should probably call unusual channels that these discussions were taking place. There are a lot of questions arising from it. Is it just for the consideration of the Welfare Reform Bill in Grand Committee, or will it apply for every Grand Committee taken up here in the future? A number of other questions also arise.

I think it is very difficult to have started the Welfare Reform Bill Grand Committee in this totally inadequate Room, dealing with something that is so important when it should have been dealt with much more appropriately on the Floor of the House, and it is going to create tremendous difficulties not only for people with mobility problems but for all of us with regard to 10-minute Divisions and a number of other things. The Whips, particularly the Chief Whip, who propelled us into these arrangements, should have thought rather more carefully about how it is going to be dealt with in practice before making such statements to the House.

[Lord Shutt of Greetland]

My Lords, this is not the first time that a Grand Committee has taken place in this Room. I recall meeting here on a Northern Ireland Bill, when a Minister accepted an amendment of mine, as it happens. So it is not the first time that we have met here. It is sufficient to the day. I have spoken about what will happen today. Later we will have a paper which I believe will refer to subsequent sessions in this Room. It will be up to the House to consider whether these arrangements apply to other Bills in this Room—I suppose that that is quite likely—but, as I say, it is sufficient to the day as far as that is concerned. As for the general position of using this Room, do not forget that this is a matter that was taken to the House and the House decided that we would meet in a Grand Committee and not in the Chamber.

As it happens, there are 62 places for Members in this Room. I think, unless some more people have crept in, that there are fewer Members in the Room than there were at the end of the Education Committee, which I just witnessed. There is certainly more space for people who need to use wheelchairs and, indeed, more space for members of the public. So as for Grand Committee being held in this Room as opposed to the Moses Room, the general belief among all those who have been consulted and who have seen the position here is that this is a better Room for these meetings. I hope that we can now proceed with the arrangements in this Room.

Amendment 1