Energy Bill [HL]

Debate between Lord Foster of Bath and Baroness Bloomfield of Hinton Waldrist

Report stage
Tuesday 28th March 2023 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Blake of Leeds (Lab)]

I thank the noble Lord for bringing this information to our attention. Some interesting reports documenting the risks are available, and I refer particularly to the report from the Institution of Fire Engineers on solar power fire risk and to batteryfiresafety.co.uk.

I have a couple of points to add to the comments already made as to whether it would be worth directing information about the storage of the batteries. It should be highlighted in particular that batteries are often stored in garages next to parked cars, which can have similar battery systems, and will not always be easily accessible.

The risks of lithium ion batteries from a fire safety perspective apparently have been well documented. However, the other element is that the risk with lithium ion batteries is not just fire. Once the battery fails—I think the term is “runs away”—the cells usually start to give off smoke. Thermal runaway is the chemical process within the battery which produces heat, as well as flammable toxic chemical gases, very quickly, often before any flames arise.

I think it is fair to say that, although the information is out there, it has not been properly documented. I wonder whether the health and safety considerations of the increasing use of these batteries and solar panels have been taken on board. Does the Minister think that there is a problem and, if the answer is yes, what does she propose to do about it?

[Baroness Bloomfield of Hinton Waldrist (Con)]

My Lords, I thank the noble Lord for his amendment on requesting a report into the fire risks of photovoltaic panels, lithium ion battery storage facilities and similar technologies. I was delighted to hear of his welcome in the Budget for the VAT exemptions.

First, I reassure the noble Lord that the health and safety regimes surrounding net-zero technologies are a priority for the Government. All electrical equipment requires safe installation and use. The Government recognise the importance of net-zero technologies such as electricity storage and solar PV in their ability to help us to use energy more flexibly and decarbonise our electricity system cost-effectively.

The data collected so far indicates that the risk from solar PV fires is low. However, it is right that we work with the industry to understand why any incidents happen and help to stop future occurrences. Over a three-year period and an overall cost of £135,000, the Government commissioned the Building Research Establishment to develop new guidelines for PV system installers, designers and the fire services, with the aim of making solar PV even safer. In February this year, the RISC Authority, the Microgeneration Certification Scheme and Solar Energy UK published an updated joint code of practice on recommendations for fire risk prevention in UK solar systems. Grid-scale lithium ion battery energy storage systems are covered by a robust regulatory framework, which requires manufacturers to ensure that products are safe before they are placed on the market and installed correctly, and that any safety issues found after products are on the market or after installations are dealt with.

In 2018, the Government set up an industry-led electricity storage health and safety governance group, which is responsible for ensuring that an appropriate, robust and future-proofed health and safety framework is sustained as the industry develops and electricity storage deployment increases. The Government are currently working with the group to support the development of a product and installation publicly available standard for domestic small-scale battery storage and guidance for grid-scale storage. They will both be published this year.

Most of the specific issues of e-scooters and bicycles fall within the remit of the Office for Zero Emission Vehicles, and I shall ask it to write to the noble Lord. I can also confirm that Defra will soon publish a consultation on battery recycling.

I do not believe that a specific report on fire risk of photovoltaic panels, lithium ion battery storage facilities and similar technologies mandated by the Secretary of State is necessary. While I welcome the noble Lord’s intention, we believe that working alongside industry and the fire services to manage specific risks is the appropriate way forward. It ensures that these vital technologies are installed, operated and decommissioned in a safe way, while still delivering the best outcomes for consumers. I hope that the noble Lord can recognise the Government’s sustained commitment to enabling the deployment of net-zero technologies in a safe and sustainable way.

In addition, on the concerns expressed by the noble Baroness, Lady Blake, about lithium ion batteries and their ability to combust, I visited last week a very clever packaging firm called Tri-Wall in Monmouth, which has developed packaging specifically for lithium ion batteries to be transported by air safely. The packaging itself will detect any change in heat in the batteries that it contains and change the structure of the packaging into water that will put the fire out before it even gets out of the packaging. Very clever technologies are being developed specifically around lithium ion battery transport and storage.

I hope that, with those few reassuring remarks, we can ask the noble Lord to withdraw his amendment.

[Lord Foster of Bath (LD)]

My Lords, the time is late; I shall be very quick indeed. I was well aware, of course, of the work that has been done looking at the package of arrangements around solar panels and their batteries. I really wanted to use it as a peg on which to hang the wider issue of all forms of lithium batteries, in particular. I am pleased to hear about the 2018 established group. It would be very helpful if we could see some of the output of that. I am grateful, too, to hear that there are going to be new standards, but the truth is very simple: you can have all the standards you like, and the products may be okay, but if they are not used appropriately and not decommissioned appropriately, then real problems exist, and that is what is happening. There are a huge number of fires in our landfill sites because people are not doing what they are meant to do in disposing of batteries. We have to find a way forward. That is why I wanted a report. I am disappointed that the Minister is not prepared to go further, but at this stage I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.

Energy Prices Bill

Debate between Lord Foster of Bath and Baroness Bloomfield of Hinton Waldrist

Committee stage
Monday 24th October 2022 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Bloomfield of Hinton Waldrist (Con)]

I am very sorry, but the Companion is quite clear: if you were not here at the start of the debate, you are unable to speak.

[Lord Foster of Bath (LD)]

My Lords, I am sad that we cannot hear the words of the noble Baroness, and I very much support her amendment, because she, like me, believes that this Government are not doing anything like enough to reduce energy consumption, the amount of energy expended nor making the most efficient use of the sources of energy available to us.

Other countries are doing far more than we are. Germany, for instance, is rushing to try to reduce its energy consumption by 20% in a very short space of time; we are doing very little about that. On energy efficiency, it was only 11 days ago that the European Union countries got together to celebrate Energy Efficiency Day, and Mr Frans Timmermans, the Commission vice-president responsible for the Green Deal, stated the bleeding obvious, because he said:

“saving energy, not using energy, is the cheapest energy”.

I agree with him, given that it is perfectly possible, given the Long Title of the Bill, as my noble friend on the Front Bench pointed out, to have done far more on these issues.

In truth, from this Government, we have had scheme after scheme which has floundered and left the industry in total disarray. As a result, since I was a Minister with some responsibility for this, the amount of energy efficiency work in this country has declined by a staggering 90%. It has gone down by 50% in the past 12 months alone. What we get from the Government is a lot of fine words—the Minister trots them out from time to time—from various government documents. The trouble is that if you follow through on what is said, you discover that there is not much action to back it up.

As an example, the Clean Growth Strategy, a document produced by this Government in October 2017, stated very clearly that:

“The Government will look at a long-term trajectory for energy performance standards across the private rented sector, with the aim of as many private rented homes as possible being upgraded to EPC Band C by 2030, where practical, cost effective and affordable. We will consider options with a view to consulting in 2018”.


The consultation took place, and was in fact extended because of Covid to 8 January 2021. That was 21 months ago, yet we have still not had any evidence of a response from the Government. When are we going to get the results of the consultation and the action promised by the Government around privately rented homes?

The situation is made even worse when you look at socially rented homes, in which the vast majority of those who are less well off are living. Five years ago, that same document said that the Government were going to

“look at how social housing can meet similar standards on the same timetable.”

I understand that consultation is needed before you can go ahead, but one would have thought that by now the consultation would have started. Yet in a letter to me and many other noble Lords in the last few days, the noble Baroness, Lady Scott of Bybrook, wrote:

“The Government has now committed to consulting on introducing standards in the social rented sector. This will happen within six months of the Social Housing (Regulation) Bill gaining consent”.


The consultation has not even started for something promised five years ago.

We have a lot of fine words from the Government, but in many areas the action does not take place. This is why it is so important that we have Amendment 8 on the statute book, at least in the very minimal way that requires the Government to give us a report on what is happening and what the benefits really are.

In relation to that, I acknowledge that the Minister pointed out at Second Reading that the Government have introduced one new scheme relating to energy efficiency, called ECO+. It will somehow run alongside ECO4, which was preceded by ECO1, 2 and 3. However, we do not know how that will work. It would be helpful to have a little more detail about how the two schemes will work together.

I have a specific question to ask the Minister about this new wonder-scheme. We know from all the evidence that the previous ECO schemes have been raising improvements to people’s homes. The Government claim that those schemes have led to improvements saving people up to £1,000 a year. Looking at the ECO+ documentation, my understanding is that the scheme is in fact expected to lead to a saving for consumers of about only £200 a year. The difference between the savings of the early ECO schemes and what appears to be that of the new scheme is huge. I hope that the Minister can explain to me why that is the case.

I have a couple of amendments down, which I will speak to very briefly. Amendment 10 is based on something from the Government’s own document. On page 12 of this year’s British Energy Security Strategy—which, incidentally, they described as ambitious—it says:

“We will cut the cost for consumers who want to make improvements”


to energy efficiency by

“zero-rating VAT for the next five years on the installation of energy saving materials”.

Some of that was introduced by the then Chancellor—I cannot remember how many Chancellors ago that was—back in the Spring Statement. I welcomed this at the time, but I genuinely do not believe it went anywhere near far enough. A large number of energy-saving materials were not included in the list.

At Second Reading, I raised one such example: retrofitting a battery to an existing solar heating scheme. Introducing a battery makes a system infinitely more efficient, which is a benefit to the homeowner and a benefit to the nation as a whole because more energy can be put back into the national grid, not least at times of high demand. At that time, I proposed that VAT on additional, retrofitted batteries should be zero-rated. Batteries needed to be retrofitted because, when many schemes were first introduced, batteries were either too expensive or people did not see the benefits of them.

I then looked at some of the other items that were not in the list. I was staggered to discover that something as simple as double-glazing was not included. The figures are staggering: 86% of homes already have double-glazing but a high proportion—more than a quarter—is old fashioned and nowhere near as efficient as modern double-glazing. The relevant associations which produce the figures are firmly of the view that, if all windows could be brought up to current standards, a staggering £14.5 billion could be saved.

I am not asking the Government to pay for all the double-glazing to be done. However, we know from all the research evidence that reducing VAT would significantly help many people take on the additional burden of uprating their windows to modern double-glazing standards. Evidence has shown the impact of the reduction in VAT in other areas. I am convinced that reducing VAT on double-glazing and on some of the other items mentioned in Amendment 10 would be of enormous benefit.

Finally, I turn to Amendment 11 in my name. I draw the Minister’s attention to my earlier speeches. He has heard me speak on this subject in one form or another on numerous occasions, so I will not repeat it all. Suffice to say that all the evidence shows that this Government claim to believe that putting targets into legislation is beneficial for driving forward investment. I have 60 quotes from current and former Ministers and from government departmental documents that back up the claim that targets put into legislation ensure that action happens.

Amendment 11 is simple. It seeks to put into legislation the targets that the Government have already set for improving the energy efficiency of our homes. It would bring fuel-poor homes up to EPC level C by 2030 and all the rest of the housing stock by 2035. In this country, unlike, for instance, in the countries of our neighbouring friends in the European Union, we have far less efficient homes—15 million homes are below the appropriate energy efficiency targets set by the Government.

The industry has made it very clear that if it is now to invest in the research, training and equipment needed to start doing more work in this field, it needs to have the confidence of targets placed into legislation. The Government have refused this on numerous occasions so far, and not once have I heard a good reason from any Minister. I am optimistic that, on this occasion, I might get a decent reply. I look forward to hearing it.

Retrofitting Buildings: National Strategy

Debate between Lord Foster of Bath and Baroness Bloomfield of Hinton Waldrist

Thursday 9th June 2022 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Bloomfield of Hinton Waldrist (Con)]

The noble Baroness makes a very good point. These questions are really for the Department for Levelling Up, Housing and Communities, but the Government are committed to the new home standards and there is a review of building regulations under way, which is probably the best route, rather than legislation.

[Lord Foster of Bath (LD)]

My Lords, it is the retrofit industry that is able to deliver the Government’s often-repeated target of getting all fuel-poor homes to EPC band C by 2030. But, having been let down so many times, that industry says it would be much more likely to invest in equipment and training with the certainty provided by putting that target into legislation. Can the Minister tell us why the Government refuse to do that?

[Baroness Bloomfield of Hinton Waldrist (Con)]

I cannot answer that specific point but, if the noble Lord had been present yesterday at the University of Birmingham’s presentation on this, he would understand that a lot of what it discussed was in exactly this area. It went on to say that more power should be devolved to local authorities to bring forward the retrofitting of buildings. But companies like Vaillant and Cadent are doing an awful lot of research into retrofitting and adapting to the future possibility of using hydrogen in the heating system, which will also help to decarbonise it.

Nuclear Energy (Financing) Bill

Debate between Lord Foster of Bath and Baroness Bloomfield of Hinton Waldrist

Committee stage
Tuesday 8th March 2022 Grand Committee

[Baroness Bloomfield of Hinton Waldrist (Con)]

I thank the noble Lords, Lord Foster and Lord Foulkes, and the noble Baroness, Lady Bennett, for their amendments relating to consultation with different persons. Regarding the amendments tabled by the noble Lord, Lord Foster, and the noble Baroness, Lady Bennett, I understand their desire to bring the local community into the process. However, the Bill is not the place to do this. It is concerned with the financing of nuclear projects, rather than planning and other regulatory approvals.

While the publicly available information about a project’s progress in seeking these approvals is likely to be relevant to decisions about which projects should benefit from the RAB model, the decisions themselves are separate and independently made. A company benefitting from the RAB model would receive revenue payments funded by licenced suppliers in Great Britain as a whole and, through them, consumers. It would therefore be wrong to grant a different status to either the local authority or particular groups of persons in respect of decisions made by the Secretary of State under the Bill’s provisions.

Both local individuals and authorities would be able to express their point of view regarding any new project through the planning process. They would, for example, have the opportunity to input their views during the hearings that would take place as part of the consideration of a project’s application for development consent. That is the right place and process for those concerns to be considered, rather than in discussions about a financing model that will impact all consumers.

I remind noble Lords of my noble friend Lord Callanan’s comments on, I think, the second group of amendments today about the productive conversations we have been having with the Sizewell C project team during the ongoing negotiations. It is our understanding that the Sizewell team intends to replicate the commitments made in the Hinkley Point C solidarity agreements, which represent a new and innovative approach to industrial relations. Our industrial relations at Hinkley Point have been extremely good and, while I take the point about Sizewell C, this is a Bill for a financing model that is supposed to be for generic nuclear financing; it is not specifically about Sizewell C. Were it to be used, for example, for Wylfa, I am sure that there would be different considerations but, again, that is not the specific intention of the Bill. This is about creating a generic financing model to finance any large-scale nuclear power plant in the future.

Amendment 30 was tabled by the noble Lord, Lord Foulkes. I understand the noble Lord’s concern about the different position on nuclear energy that is held by the Scottish Government, but ultimately it is right that the relevant devolved nations have equal rights under the Bill. It would be wrong to allow the Secretary of State solely to have the power to exclude Scottish Ministers while retaining an unqualified obligation with regard to Welsh Ministers. While this provision requires consultation with those persons, it does not require that they agree with the proposed modifications for those modifications to be made. I further point out to the noble Lord that nothing in the Bill will change the fact that Scottish Ministers are responsible for approving planning applications for large-scale onshore electricity generating stations within Scotland.

I hope that I have shown noble Lords that their amendments are inappropriate in the wider context. I therefore ask noble Lords not to press them.

[Lord Foster of Bath (LD)]

My Lords, I am grateful to the Minister for her response, but I genuinely did not understand it and I apologise for that. The clause is about the designation of a nuclear company. That power rests in the hands of the Secretary of State, who will make the decision based on a number of criteria. As we pointed out, we do not yet know what those criteria are and we are not sure that we are ever going to find out. However, it is also going to be done after consultation, and the consultees are required to be a number of people, as specified in the legislation.

I sought to have local authorities included as a specified group to be consulted. The Minister’s response was that they would get their opportunity to raise their issues of concern in other fora, and that this is not the right place. However, I am absolutely certain that my amendment was intended to ensure that local authorities, representing local people impacted by the decisions that are taken, should be able to be involved in the designation of a company. It is, after all, they who will have done all the work and they who will have brought forward the planning application and the various modifications to it and sought money and received money from central government to help them get on with the task and so on. The designation of the company is critical. I therefore genuinely do not understand why the Minister says that it is inappropriate for this particular aspect of activity. I may be being stupid, in which case I will have time to reflect before the next stage and get a bit more informed before I come back. In the meantime, I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.

Building Safety Bill

Debate between Lord Foster of Bath and Baroness Bloomfield of Hinton Waldrist

Committee stage
Wednesday 2nd March 2022 Grand Committee

[Baroness Bloomfield of Hinton Waldrist (Con)]

I thank all noble Lords for their contributions to this important debate on additional building safety measures. As noble Lords know, making sure everyone’s home is a place of safety is at the heart of the Bill. I will address each of the amendments discussed in turn.

I thank the noble Lord, Lord Foster, and the noble Baroness, Lady Brinton, for raising the important matter of ensuring that electrical goods sold online are safe. The Government remain committed to ensuring that only safe products can be legally placed on the UK market, both now and in the future. Preventing the sale of unsafe electrical goods is clearly important to achieving this aim, but this extends to ensuring that all consumer products sold in the UK are safe. Existing product safety legislation places obligations on manufacturers, importers and distributors to ensure that consumer products are safe before they can be placed on the UK market. This applies to products sold both online and offline.

In common with the noble Lord, Lord Foster, the noble Baroness, Lady Brinton, and the noble Lord, Lord Khan, the Government also recognise that the rise of e-commerce presents a particular challenge. However, it is not true that the Government are doing nothing. They are undertaking a thorough review of the UK’s product safety framework, which includes an assessment of the impact of e-commerce.

Following a call for evidence last year, the Government are developing proposals for reform of the product safety framework and intend to consult in due course. This includes options to address the sale of unsafe products online. We are also taking forward a number of immediate actions. This includes implementing a programme of work focusing on the safety and compliance of goods sold by third-party sellers on online marketplaces.

I thank noble Lords for raising this important matter. However, the Government will not be supporting the amendment at this time, given the broader work as part of the product safety review and the existing regulatory controls that I have outlined.

[Lord Foster of Bath (LD)]

I am very grateful for what the Minister said the Government are doing, but before she moves on to the next amendment, can she give a clear indication of the timescale? Far too often we hear the phrase “in due course”—the Minister has herself used it. We all know what it means; can she give us something a little more concrete?

[Baroness Bloomfield of Hinton Waldrist (Con)]

I am afraid I pushed my officials to give me a specific time. They have agreed that we may write with more details to give the noble Lord an indication of when this might be forthcoming.

On Amendment 112, I thank the noble Baroness for raising the important matter of the testing and certification of construction products. The Government are committed to reforming the regulatory framework for construction products and it is important that our approach to reform considers the system in the round and is based on engagement with stakeholders who make, distribute and use construction products.

We therefore do not believe that it is right to set a deadline of six months to introduce new measures, as this will constrain public debate. We intend to introduce a requirement for products to be corrected, withdrawn or recalled where they are not safe. This will deliver a greater practical benefit than publishing information about known safety concerns.

We recognise the importance of accurate, reliable performance information to support appropriate product choices. However, a product’s testing record is unlikely to provide useful information for this purpose. Instead, we will create a statutory list of “safety critical” products, where their failure would risk causing death or serious injury and require manufacturers to draw up a declaration of performance for these products. Dame Judith Hackitt’s review recommended that industry should develop a consistent labelling and traceability system for construction products. We agree that industry is best placed to develop an approach that will be effective in practice.

I could sense the frustration of the noble Baroness, Lady Pinnock, with the language used in the Bill, specifically in Schedule 11. I am afraid that the “may versus must” argument recurs in many bits of legislation that I have taken through, and particularly here, when Dame Judith used “must” in her report. However, the whole reason we put “may” rather than “must” in legislation is that this approach is designed to allow the Secretary of State to review existing regulations, consult as needed and bring forward new regulations where needed. We clearly intend to use these powers and published draft regulations in October 2021. I recognise that that probably will not wholly satisfy the noble Baroness but it is as far as I may go.