Digital Economy Bill

Lord Foster of Bath Excerpts

Report: 1st sitting: House of Lords
Wednesday 22nd February 2017 Lords Chamber

[Lord Stevenson of Balmacara]

My Lords, I move Amendment 25 and am grateful for the support of my noble friend Lady Jones and the noble Lords, Lord Clement-Jones and Lord Foster.

This is a rerun of an amendment that we tabled in Committee. At the time, discussions were in place between rights holders and those who operate the search engines, which are the focus of the amendment, and we were not sure how that would play out. We were promised much, and the Government have again delivered—which is becoming too much of a refrain for my liking. A voluntary code has been agreed between the parties, signed up to and issued—there has been press notification about it, so it must be true. The question is: what will it do? That has not been answered. We have discussed what it might do, but we have not yet seen the wording of the voluntary code. I ask the Minister to circulate to those participating in the debate what is in the much-vaunted code, so that we have a sense of whether it will achieve its purpose.

My concern from what I have heard is in three parts. First, it is large copyright-owners and large inquiry systems such as Google that are involved. That begs the question of whether those who are less able to exercise their rights—particularly those who have individual or small parts of rights in small productions—will have any voice. The reporting that I have read talks about rights holders and search engines working promptly on receiving responses about infringing content to ensure that these things are taken down.

Secondly, there is much talk of expanding efforts,

“to more effectively use such notices to demote domains demonstrated to be dedicated to infringement, and to work collaboratively with rights holders to consider other technically reasonable, scalable avenues empirically demonstrated to help materially reduce the appearance of illegitimate sites in the top search rankings”.

I could read that again, because you would probably need to hear it again to have the faintest idea what we are talking about. I fear that it smacks of either a lowest common denominator approach or some hard arm-wrestling in the corridors where the discussion took place to get something that looks reasonable on paper. It does not smack of a real commitment to scourge out the terrible way in which search engines have referred people who should have known better to material that was not cleared for copyright and should not have been made available to them through that route. There is also talk about,

“work to prevent generation of Autocomplete suggestions which lead consumers towards infringing websites”.

It says that work will be done to prevent it, not that it will be stopped.

“Search engines will provide, or continue to provide, processes to promptly remove advertisements”,


linked to searches. So my second point is that this all looks pretty good on the surface, but will it work in practice? I have my doubts.

Thirdly, it will be run by the Minister of State for Intellectual Property, who,

“will oversee the implementation of this Code of Practice, supported by quarterly meetings of all parties, and set requirements for reporting by search engines and rights holders on any matter herein, including in particular those matters where the Code of Practice calls for ongoing discussion”.

At last, we get it:

“The Minister shall review the effectiveness of the Code with the parties after one year, and ensure continuing progress towards achieving the Shared Objectives”—


which is, rather nicely, in my copy, in capital letters, so they must be really important.

It is easy to lampoon this. I am sure it is a good step forward in the right direction, and we wish it well, but I wonder whether it will take the trick on this issue. As we said in a previous discussion, should there not be a backstop power; should these powers not be taken now by the Government to ensure that they can do something if it does not work, if some people move away from it, or if new entrants to the market feel that they have no responsibility to be part of it? These are open questions. There may be a way through, there may not, but we have no way to resolve that because this is a voluntary process.

It took a long time to get to the voluntary code: the working group has been meeting on and off for three or four years, so we know that this is not an easy nut to crack. It is an issue that causes a lot of annoyance and concern. It also affects the earnings of those who have rights that have been abused in this way. There is a feeling—I put it no stronger than that—among those who perhaps know more about this than I do that the search engines do not want to go any further because they fear statutory provision. In other countries and territories—indeed, in America—there is statutory provision, and that has made the difference over there. Why are we not doing that here?

There are a lot of questions about this. The amendment would give a solution to the Government if they wished to take it. I hope that they will consider it, and I beg to move.

[Lord Foster of Bath (LD)]

My Lords, I am delighted to support the amendment in the names of the noble Lord, Lord Stevenson, and others. I am sure that all Members of the House recognise that there is a serious problem that needs to be addressed, although fewer people are accessing illegal material on the internet as a result of the growing number of relatively cheap and easily accessible alternatives. We should welcome that and the fact that in this country we probably provide a wider range of alternative legal sources—for the downloading of music, for example—than any other in the world. Nevertheless, there continues to be a problem, with about 15% of UK internet users—about 6.7 million people—continuing to download and access illegal material. I therefore welcome any measures that can be taken to introduce ways to prevent that. Of course I welcome the voluntary agreement that has been reached. I congratulate the Minister for Intellectual Property, who I know has worked very hard with the relevant parties, including the IPO, to secure the voluntary code. As the noble Lord, Lord Stevenson, said, the details have still to be worked on and there will be a review in 2017.

I ask the Minister to reflect seriously on this key point. In opposition, I have spent a lot of time moving amendments to various proposals that the Government “may” do something to delete “may” and insert “must”. On this occasion, I am delighted to support the amendment, which says that the Government may do something, if the need arises.

The Department for Culture, Media and Sport is rarely given credit for the important role it plays in the life of this country. As a result, it rarely has opportunities to have legislation before the House. While the Minister may tell me, as she did in a previous debate, that should the voluntary code not work, the Government will consider taking legal action at some point, she would find it difficult to find a legislative peg on which to hang that action.

The Intellectual Property Alliance and others have suggested that we need a backstop mechanism in the event that the code, which we welcome, is unsuccessful in future. For that reason, I hope that the Government will be willing to accept what is a simple amendment giving them power in future if they need it.

[Baroness Buscombe]

My Lords, Amendment 25 returns to the topic of search engines and copyright and would give the Government power to impose a code of practice on search engines to minimise the visibility of copyright-infringing websites in search results.

As we have discussed previously, this is an area in which we have been seeking a voluntary agreement between search engines and rights holders, and I am pleased to be able to confirm that we now have that agreement and have finalised the text of a code of practice. This newly agreed code sets out clear targets for reducing the visibility of infringing websites in search results. The code also specifies a number of areas where rights holders and search engines have agreed to work together with the general aim of supporting legitimate content and reducing piracy. We have always been clear that action is needed in this area and it is a manifesto commitment. But we have also been clear that a voluntary agreement would be quicker, more flexible and, most importantly of all, more collaborative than a legislative intervention. We now have that voluntary agreement and the parties to the code are already working to deliver on the commitments it contains. All parties to the agreement have engaged in these negotiations and the work to date in good faith. They are continuing to work in good faith and I am confident that that will also be the case for work going forwards.

The noble Lord, Lord Stevenson, questioned whether it would be possible to have sight of the code. We do not plan to publish the code in full because details about the number of copyright infringement reports a site can receive before it is demoted might allow pirates to game the system. We are, however, very happy to share the commitments in the code in more general terms.

We understand where noble Lords are coming from in seeking a backstop power, but I return to that word “collaborative”. We have come a very long way in what we have achieved thus far. I can remember working and having discussions with search engines in years gone by, trying to encourage them to respect and accept responsibility for what they do and the impact they can have on others. In that sense, we believe very strongly that we should continue with that collaboration and not consider a backstop power. We do not believe it is necessary. With that explanation, I hope the noble Lord will accept that a statutory power is not needed at present and thus feel able to withdraw the amendment.